could the u.s. have a hand in the beheadings?

[colonel odis]

could they be trying to keep atrocities before the public to keep whipping up support for the "war"?

special forces, psy ops, and/or the cia have all done worse. and nothing -- absolutely nothing -- this administration does would surprise me. they are the lowest of the low.

something seems weird about many of the incidents. wrong accents, height, prison clothes, etc. i'm certainly not trying to say terrorists aren't or wouldn't do these. but aside from the delicious pupusas from the taco wagon i just had, i've got a funny feeling in my gut.

[DrWeird]

1. They always seem to happen...

directly after the US commits a war crime. Berg after Abu Ghraib. Hassan after this Marine incident.

So it's either for reprisal or distraction purposes. But that only makes the question more complex.

[Cuban_Liberal]

2. I tend to believe the simplest answer is usually the right one.

If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, it's most likely a duck. I see no empirical evidence whatsoever to believe our government is involved in the beheadings and kidnappings. I believe it is exactly what it appears to be: folks with an agenda different from our own who are using terror as a weapon to further THEIR agenda.

[colonel odis]

8. exactly what empirical evidence do you think you'd be seeing?

[firebee]

25. I think you'd see this kind of empirical evidence

Well, you might see this empirical evidence in the video of a beheading if you choose to pay that kind of attention to the video of a beheading.

In a certain video, you might notice the frames are chopped up and you'll probably notice the time sequences don't match up. In a certain video you might also notice somebody's wearing an orange jumpsuit issued to detainees under U.S. authority. You might also notice white chairs similar to that of the chairs seen in the videos of Abu Ghraib and you might notice yellow walls similar to that of Abu Ghraib. You might also notice five people standing "at ease", unlike other beheadings where the terrorists are whipped up in a chaotic frenzy. You might also notice a ring on the left ring finger of one of the terrorists, which isn't allowed in the islamic religion. You might also notice their are American accents chanting "Allah ahu Akbar" and you might notice an American voice at the very end of the video saying "Now are we done" or "Thy will be done".

Then during the actual beheading, you might notice their's no blood coming from the head or the body of the person who's being beheaded. You might also notice that the person doing the beheading is "Cutting" the head off the body with a cross throat technique from behind, which is unique because most beheadings are done by "Chopping" the head off and their's usually a lot of blood apparent when these kind of things happen. Not to mention, the cross throat technique indicates military training.

Amazingly enough... This kind of video might come out when certain officials, such as Rumsfeld and Cambone, need to do damage control on a certain scandal, such as Abu Ghraib. This doesn't prove anything, but it kind of lends hand to what people see in the video. Can you guess which video I'm talking about and can you see why people wonder about U.S. involvement with these beheadings? Maybe if the first beheading wasn't a staged propaganda piece, we'd be more effected by the following beheadings that appear to be real.

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. Look, I'm not going to argue this.

Unless and until someone proves otherwise, it is exactly what it appears to be. I didn't see it rain after I went to bed last night, but the grass and sidewalk were wet when I went outside this morning; I can therefore logically conclude from the circumstanial evidence that it rained while I was asleep. The same applies to the beheadings and kidnappings.

I'm not going to speculate about what negative evidence one might or might not see.

:shrug:

[colonel odis]

39. good thing you aren't going to argue this. since no one asked you to.

i just asked what sort of empirical evidence you would expect. if you don't think the govt's involved in it, fine. i just raised the question of whether they might be.

[colonel odis]

40. post went through twice. sorry.

[DenverDem]

9. But do these atricities further THEIR agenda.

They seem to be supremely counterproductive to the insurgents' agenda and the timing of these things always seems to coincide with something the misadministration needs cover for.

It doesn't walk, sound or look like a duck to me.

[cali]

12. Counter Productive?

Not hardly. If your goals are to keep the country in turmoil and prevent reconstruction, keep out the U.N. and NCOs, and push countries to withdraw their forces, it's extremely productive. I'm with the poster who suggested that Occam's Razor is the answer to most situations. In addition, bushco could do other things to remove the focus from their frequent missteps. They can always raise the terror alert, they could pull off a phony domestic terror attack, etc. They actually need things to go well in Iraq. I just don't see what their motivation would be.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. Making things go well in Iraq is much harder than demonizing the enemy

with well-timed false-flag terror against soft and sympathetic targets. Less profitable, too. Because demonizing the enemy boils the blood back home, which is what it's all about. Because more important than winning the war is perpetuating the war.

And look at Nick Berg. He had been in US custody just before his death. A US official in Iraq confirmed it, before the denial from on high came down. That alone should raise red flags. But Berg was an associate of Zaccharias Moussauoui and had been investigated by Homeland Security; he was a business partner of Russian mafioso. And I swear to God, before the beheading tape cuts out, I hear, in clear English, "How wicked was that?" "Hooha."

[Carl Brennan]

28. Brilliant post MB!! I would put absolutely nothing past

these bastards and you are absolutely correct.

You should put the title of your post in bold print.

[DenverDem]

17. Their (busholini inc) motivation is to demonize the enemy.

These atrocities do that.

How do these atrocities push countries to withdraw their forces? We "don't negotiate with terrorists", so negotiation with Iraqi freedom fighters is thrown out the window and the only option becomes to kill everyone who does not agree with us occupying their country.

These black ops are meant to polarize opinion in amerikkka and to further marginalize the peace movement. In that function, they work very well.

As far as winning the end of the occupation for Iraqis, not so much. So, yes, they are very counter productive for Iraqis.

[cali]

21. Your logic is far too tortured

no pun intended. I'm not saying that your scenario isn't possible, but it's far more likely that those committing these acts are simply those who are resisting the occupation.

[DenverDem]

24. Your logic is unsupported by evidence.

Why is it far more likely that resistance fighters would be commiting acts that do not further their cause and are against their religion?

What actual evidence is there as to the identities of the perps?

And speaking of torture, who are the torture perpetrators in Iraq? Yep, USA.

[cali]

31. And you do have evidence? No

Have a lot to say here. First of all, I gave my argument for how the actions we're discussing could further their cause in my post above. Second of all, What is their cause? Neither you or I can state with great certainty what it is. from what I've read, I gather that they have more than one. Certainly, kicking the U.S. out of Iraq is one, but how is this goal reached? Continuing mayhem and instability is one route. Keeping reconstruction from taking place.

It should be pointed out that several people have been kidnapped over the last couple of years, and escaped or been released, including a Canadian journalist, Kevin Sites, the NBC reporter, and others. Google it.

Is what the U.S is doing in Iraq despicable? You bet. That doesn't mean that what others are doing isn't despicable, as well.

Since 9/11 there have been numerous incidents of terrorism worldwide. From the beheading of Danny Pearl, the Wall Street Journal Reporter, to bombings in Spain and Turkey. I suppose this too was all perpetrated by the U.S. And 9/11, was that the U.S. or the Mossad? If I believed what you evidently believe, that it's absolutely black and white, and that the U.S. is the sole source of all evil in the world, I'd leave.

Let me make it completely clear, that I in no way condone what this country is doing regarding the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

[DenverDem]

32. I'm not leaving, I'm working for change right here.

It's not the US, it's the radical right wing coporatist neo-conservatives that are controlling the US.

And, hell yes, I have a lot of suspicion about how 9/11 et al happened.

[whosinpower]

3. The only one that I really wondered about

Was the CARE worker. My understanding of Islam (and that is really really REALLY weak!!!) is that they would never lower themselves to kidnapping a female and killing her.....I think it lessens their standing to Allah - but hey - who am I??????

So - I would have to question this one...by all appearances - and given that even ZARQAWI declared that whoever had her should release her.....well????????????

[Cleita]

6. Not necessarily.

Look at all the women, who were executed by the Taliban because they didn't wear a veil or other minor infraction involving their dress and actions.

[whosinpower]

10. WEll - yes but.....

These women were not held hostage - that is to say, they were executed under ISLAMIC LAW (I am not condoning it), but the reason they were executed was because the Taliban did not feel those women were living up to their rules.....but kidnapping and holding hostage is an entirely different matter. It goes against Islamic law as far as I know.....and since these guys are religious freaks - you would think they would not lessen themselves by doing such a thing.

You see - we think beheadings etc is abhorrent - but Islamic culture - it is quite acceptable as an execution. The Saudi's do it even now. It is standard - and while we may be totally and completely horrified by it, they are not. But Hassan is a different case I think.

[Old and In the Way]

36. Why the masks?

Seems that these are the hardest of the hardline radical Islamo-terrorists, so why would they bother hiding their face from the camera. They are prepared to die fighting the occupation, right? And the public beheadings under Islamic law don't have the perps hiding their faces....why would these people?

I just don't see where the benefit is for the Iraqi freedom fighters? This act doesn't do anything but make people think the Iraqis are inhumane dogs; it doesn't change the military equation, it doesn't do anything but shock the American people and it certainly undercuts the progressive position for an end to the occupation. This becomes a club to be used against us.

Not saying their were US agents....could be that they were US proxies, though. Chalabi comes to mind.

[Cleita]

4. I wouldn't put anything past them.

The German Nazis used to stage attacks on their borders to whip up support for wars. They would dress concentration camp inmates in the uniforms of the neighboring nations like Poland. The would kill them, then bring the press around to see all the dead Polish soldiers that the Germans had managed to surprise and kill before any Germans got killed.

[ArkDem]

15. Only happened once. On August 31, 1939

German SS troops put on a false attack on a German radio station at Gliewitz.Dressed in Polish uniforms to convince the world that Poland is the aggressor nation and to justify the next days invasion of Poland. They did dress a few murdered 'criminals' in Wehrmact uniforms to show the 'battle' carnage. They also transmitted anti-german announcements over the station.

[DenverDem]

18. Burning of the Reichstag?

"Only" once. Is once not enough? Does that mean that if busholini only does it once, it's OK?

[ArkDem]

35. Didn't say anything about bush. I am an historian and was

putting detail to Cleita's post.

[Cleita]

20. They also did it on the French border.

Towards the end of the war planned some other incidents that weren't carried out because the allies were on the continent by then.

[ArkDem]

34. They occupied France at that time. I'm fear you are wrong.

[Cleita]

38. Sorry it was the Dutch border at a town called Venlo..

Two British agents were kidnapped and blamed for an assassination attempt on Hitler at Buergerbraukeller.

William L. Shirer writes in his book "The Rise And Fall of the Third Reich".

Himmler's detailed account of the crime sounded "fishy" to me, as I wrote in my diary the same day. But his accomplishment was very real. "What Himmler and his gang are up to, obviously," I jotted down, "is to convince the gullible German people that the Britsh government tried to win the war by murdering Hitler and his chief aides."

One Alfred Naujocks was involved in this as he was also involved in the Operation Canned Goods involving the radio station on the Polish Border. These staged incidents were for one purpose only to get the German people to accept what the Nazis were doing.

[John BigBootay]

22. Nice history lesson- but is this what you think is happening now?

I.E.: Buscho is rounding up victims and giving them to Zarqawi, et. al. in the hopes of a juicy beheading to be played out on the news?

This is what you really think is happening?

[DenverDem]

26. Not giving them to Zarqawi.

False flag op.

[Cleita]

30. Like I said, I don't put anything past them.

We really won't know for sure until after this ordeal is over with and history finds the truth. Since a lot of how BushCo operates is how the Nazis operated, it's possible.

People think that Hitler could do whatever he wanted and the German people had no say, but he actually had to make a case to justify his invasions into European countries by scapegoating and planting fear into the population. Look at Bush's excuses to invade Iraq. He set them up as having ties to Osama inferring they were responsible for 9-11. They said they had WMD. He said that Saddam needed to go.

None of this was true and they have Saddam in custody, so why are we still there? So he staged all the incidents needed to get the public compliant and now that it turns out to be lies, it's just too bad. He got what he wanted.

[Minstrel Boy]

5. Whether directly or through local proxies, yes. Some.

Nick Berg, definitely. Hassan (though she was shot, not beheaded), possibly.

It's murky as hell over there. To attribute them all to the monolithically-conceived "insurgency" is fallacious and naive.

False-flag, black-bag jobs do happen.

[scarlett1]

7. I certainly hope not

I have enough faith in our Government as a whole to believe Our Country Would NEVER have a hand in beheadings. Hopefully I'm not just naive.

[DenverDem]

14. Man, are you naive.

There is plenty of evidence for previous false flag ops by our government and those we are very cozy with in the distant and not so distant past.

[atreides1]

19. Which Government Are You Talking About?

Would this be the same government that has changed its story about why we attacked Iraq, the same government that gave us NCLB without the funding, the same government that did little to protect the US from a possible terrorist attack, the same government that gives tax cuts to the rich and at the same time is looking to cut most if not all social program funding, the same government that will cut the VA staff and some of its funding, this government.

Then yes I would say that you were more then just naive.

[whosinpower]

11. Here is the answer to your implication!

http://www.williambowles.info/ini/ini-0288.html

snip - Coincidence? The surfacing of a videotape that allegedly shows the execution of Margaret Hassan coming as it does fresh on the heels of the video of the execution of a wounded Iraqi resistance fighter by US Marines seems to be part of a pattern of diverting attention away from embarrassing revelations for the occupiers. Could it be that the people who kidnapped Margaret Hassan are not what they seem? That her execution emerged at this critical time in the war for ‘hearts and minds’ strikes me as just too much of a coincidence. It’s as if she was held out of sight until needed. Of course, the media will focus on the immediate horror of it without considering the timing of her execution.

And I’m not alone in this view. See ‘Hassan's Alleged Death: A Close Encounter Of The Intelligence Kind’, Nov 17, 2004, By Bruce Kennedy, JUS. The article alleges that British intelligence agents were behind the abduction Ms Hassan on October 19th to divert attention away from the redeployment of British troops to Fallujah. A related piece is ‘Saudi Islamic Fundamentalists endorse US Occupation of Iraq’ by Michel Chossudovsky, www.globalresearch.ca, 16 November 2004. There is every reason to believe that there still exists close connections between USUK intelligence agencies and Saudi Arabia given the history of Saudi Arabia and the West.

[Old and In the Way]

13. That's the problem....we don't know.

Sorta like Anthrax attacks and 9/11....we don't know who did it. Well, we do know that Iraq was involved with 9/11 because the governement told us they were....that's why we had to invade and occupy their country. That and they had WMD that they were going to use on us at any moment.

Seems that these beheadings do accomplish one thing...they further divide this country.

[hollywood926]

23. The only problem I have with these theories is that

it seems to me that one person...SOMEONE....would come forward and spills the beans.

But then...when people do that, they are usually 'taken care of' in one way or another.

I just don't know....hmmm.

[Old and In the Way]

33. If that one prson did come out and spill the beans........how would he

be received in the media? I think we know how that would be spun. No, there'd have to be irrefutable evidence that it was a US black ops before it would be taken seriously.

[Minstrel Boy]

37. That's always the way, isn't it? Because people DO talk.

Conspirators and whistleblowers HAVE have talked about JFK, MLK, RFK, October Surprise, BCCI, mind control, 9/11 and the rest. And when they talk, they're told "what you're saying can't be true, because you would have been killed for it."

Character assassination is another kind of death.

They can't fucking win. Nothing changes and on we go, deeper into the dark.

[datasuspect]

27. the u.s. government involved in black ops?

never! that is simply unimaginable (/sarcasm).

[Minstrel Boy]

41. "Margaret Hassan execution: Anatomy of a Counterinsurgency Operation?"

An interesting piece by Kurt Nimmo today:

...

However, we still do not know who allegedly killed Hassan, since no group has claimed responsibility. Of course, the corporate media and the Bushcons want you to believe it was the Iraqi resistance. As I said when Hassan was abducted, if the resistance killed her they are the stupidest resistance movement in recent memory. It makes absolutely no sense for the resistance to kill a "humanitarian worker known around the Mideast for her concern for Iraqis—particularly during the years of U.N. sanctions, whose effects on children she vocally denounced," as the AP notes.

It is curious the video of Hassan’s execution surfaced at the same time allegations of civilian mass murder, the execution of wounded prisoners, and other war crimes in Fallujah made the rounds.

I believe—admittedly without any evidence—that the abduction and now apparent murder of Margaret Hassan is a counterinsurgency intelligence operation run by the Americans, the Israelis, or both, as a way to sow chaos and discredit the Iraqi resistance (a resistance the United States cannot possibly hope to crush militarily). Discrediting the resistance is particularly important, as a psychological warfare tactic.

...

US military (and CIA operative) officer Major Edward Geary Lansdale’s "psy-war tactics" used in the Philippines against the Huk. Lansdale’s methods "centered on measures of deception similar to those employed in the British and French colonial campaigns in Kenya and Indochina," including the creation of bogus guerilla units used to discredit the enemy. (See Michael McClintock’s Instruments of Statecraft: U.S. Guerilla Warfare, Counterinsurgency, and Counterterrorism, 1940-1990.)

http://kurtnimmo.com/blog/index.php?p=419

[kohodog]

42. Who makes the orange jumpsuits?

Do the insurgents buy them at wallmart, or are they regular issue?

Sorry if this is inapropriate, but it seems odd to me.