You may be a racist if

[Cleita]

1. You think immigrants to this country are taking jobs that belong to Americans.

2. You think that people of color should go back to where they came from.

3. You think the opposition party is registering illegals to vote.

4. You think minorities shouldn’t move into your neighborhood because they bring crime with them.

5. You think that foreigner’s children shouldn’t be allowed to attend public schools.

6. You think English should be the only language spoken.

7. You think immigrants from Latin America are the people
littering public places like parks and beaches with dirty diapers. (Bizarre but someone actually said this to me.)

8. You think they should have equal but separate rights, but you draw the line at marriage.

9. Or, you believe interracial marriage is fine as long as they don’t plan on having children.

10. Your race is the most intelligent and therefore should lead.

Those are my ten. Put yours up. Please don't flame. The purpose of this post is to educate about those little hidden prejudices and bigotry that we all carry with us and are often not even aware of.

[WestHoustonDem]

1. 11. If you think interracial dating is ok, but not for your child(ren)

[DrWeird]

2. If you think rap is not really music.

nt

[Heyo]

7. um....

.... hippa to the hoppa and ya just don't stoppa..

:bounce:

(I love rap)

Heyo

[Chovexani]

49. What?

I'm black and I hate rap, does that make me a racist?

[DrWeird]

61. I myself don't care for opera.

Mostly because I don't speak Italian. That doesn't mean I go around saying Opera isn't really music.

[progdonkey]

107. um, Opera isn't restricted to Italian...

Ever heard of a guy named Wagner? How about Berlioz? Mozart?

Before you decide to "not care" about something, maybe you should actually become a bit educated about it.

[DrWeird]

111. That's why I said "mostly."

I don't speak German either.

My point remains valid.

[progdonkey]

116. they come with translations...

Since it's "mostly" because you don't speak Italian, and apparently not speaking German is a lesser, separate reason, I'm wondering when you're actually going to arrive at a valid reason not to enjoy Opera.

In one of your threads below, you went on how racists don't like hearing other people speaking other languages around them, yet you "don't care" for a genre of music because it's people speaking other languages. Interesting....

[DrWeird]

129. Yeah, but then the translations don't rythme.

And then you find out all those pretty songs are about as interesting as The Days of Our Lives. And it's too long. And I simply find it distasteful. I could pretend I like it even though I don't understand it, because I think it makes me looks intellectual, like so many pseudointellectuals do. But that's just phony.

So my reasons for not liking Opera are just as valid as people's reasons for not liking rap. Nevertheless, I don't go around saying that it's not really music, that it's "beneath my standards of what qualifies as music." That they're a bunch of hypersexed thugs for singing about sex and murder. But that would be intellectually dishonest. I just don't care for it.

So I'll stick by my original comment that people who think that rap isn't really music are probably racists.

Seems I've hit the nail a little too close to the head.

[progdonkey]

170. well...

What I primarily took issue with was that you said somewhere down this thread that people who don't want others speaking foreign languages around them are racists, but then said you don't care for Opera largely because it's not in English (though there's nothing saying Opera can't be in English--other than good taste :evilgrin:).

My other issue is that, while you're not writing off Opera as not being music, you are painting the entire genre with one brush colored by whatever bits of Opera you've heard. You can say most Opera sucks (like I do with rap below), but don't write off the whole genre.

Like I said earlier, I do agree with you that anyone who simply writes off rap as not being music is probably a racist. I'll still reserve the right to call most rap crap, since it's not a matter of race, but just the recognition that corporations have so commercialized the genre as to flood its ranks with simply vile junk (like they did to metal with the hair bands of the '80s). I don't like Petey Pablo, for instance, not because he raps, but because he raps about planting a girl's face in the pillow so she can scream, with choruses of "how you like it, daddy"--I, frankly, think that's a better reason to not like something than just a language barrier or length. I'm not saying I don't care for the entire genre, just the vile crap that gets produced and played on the radio these days (there is quite a bit of talent on display, but it's largely overwhelmed by the "Tipsy's" of the radio).

(I'll also agree that translations of songs can be pretty demystifying: Rammstein just isn't as threatening when you actually know what they're saying half the time.)

What's distasteful about Opera? I'm not insulted or anything, just perplexed (unless your referring to the Nazis' fondness for Wagner, but that's just something with Wagner).

On a side note: I would strongly recommend you listen to Wagner's Lohengrin. It's one of his earliest and is pretty straight-forward, as Wagner goes. Sure, you won't know what's being said line by line unless you're simultaneously reading a translation, but the story's simple enough to not require an understanding of German. A good, short Opera is "Pagliacci" by Leoncavallo. It's only an hour long and very straight-forward (you may have heard part of it in that car commercial where the guys jump out of the car and pelt the other guy with water balloons). It's about a clown ("Pagliacci" means "clowns"), whose wife cheats on him with another member of the troupe, so he kills her (of course, singing all the while). Seinfeld even made an episode based on it.

The only reason I'm recommending these is because it's been my experience that anyone who says they don't like Opera has never really heard much of it. Same thing with Classical Music in general (really, any genre): it's so boring and there's no beat... until they hear Vivaldi's Winter, or the Witches' Sabbath from Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique, or the Rite of Spring, etc.

Good music's good music; it doesn't matter what genre, there are always gems amid the junk, so saying you don't care for an entire genre simply means you haven't dug deep enough.

[Goldmund]

226. "there's nothing saying Opera can't be in English--other than good taste"

Not only are translated operas just as in "good taste" as translated poems, but there are plenty of operas originally written in English.

[progdonkey]

251. am I that subtle?

Do you actually think I was being serious? I was riffing on DrWeird's jab at "pseudointellectuals" who pretend to like Opera (an attempted dig at me, I guess), and decided to come back ultra-snooty as a joke.

[Goldmund]

257. Sorry, my bad

You weren't that subtle, on a second read. I was either in one of my dumb moods or I was reading too fast. I do this at work...

[progdonkey]

264. no problem...

That's one of the big problems with messaging, etc., when you're trying to be sarcastic or subtle. A lot of times I've just decided not to write something because I thought I'd have to write a hundred smileys and "/sarcasm/'s" to make sure others didn't think I was serious.

:pals:

[Goldmund]

225. There are plenty of English-language operas.

[ContraBass Black]

234. I've heard of them, and I enjoy their work every day.

I also enjoy rap every day. People look at me funny when they hear this. Why is that?

That said, regardless of what I think of other people's music, I will not deny that it is music. I find that people who do so are very often ignorant, uncultured, self-aggrandizing, elitist, rude, intollerant, and generally unpleasant.

[jmowreader]

246. There are English-language operas too

Start with Peter Grimes by Benjamin Britten. Okay, it's not much of an opera, but it's a start.

Then get into Gilbert and Sullivan.

Opera can be sung in any language.

[drdtroit]

249. He said nothing about discrediting rap as not music.

PROJECTION!

[ComerPerro]

98. Quite honestly, a lot of rap is not music

Neither is most pop music. What can I say? A lot of rap is just people ripping off others and promoting themselves. Similarly, a lot of what passes for music is just tired, corporate bullshit that really requires little thought or talent.

Does that make me a racist? Not at all. I can appreciate the difference between ligitimate rap/hip hop and crap with shitty lyrics and a stolen bass line.

[Kire]

124. you're not a racist

at least not for this

[NightTrain]

193. Most rap is not GOOD music. But it's still music.

When rap IS good, however, it can really kick ass! :headbang:

[progdonkey]

105. Most rap is absolute shit...

If you're simply saying that you're a racist if the very presence of someone rapping destroys a song's claim to be music, then you'd be correct.

The fact is, though, that most of the rap that is on the market today is crap. For every NWA or Public Enemy, there are 100 Jay-Z's and Ludacris's. "Move, bitch, get out da way"? Am I racist for saying that's not music?

The rap on MTV is this generation's hair metal. "Cherry Pie," meet "Big Pimpin'."

[DrWeird]

134. I'm not saying you're racist if you don't like most rap.

Especially most of the pop music.

I'm saying you're probably racist if you think rap, as a genre, doesn't qualify as music. The same way people said that about blue and jazz in their era.

[DoNotRefill]

171. So...

if somebody thinks country isn't music, are they racist too?

[DrWeird]

207. I've never heard anybody say...

country music isn't really music, just people say they didn't like it. That phrase "isn't really music" is only really said towards music created by black people.

[no name no slogan]

241. But then again, so's most rock and country, too (n/t)

[IronLionZion]

238. some rappers are white or Jewish

Eminem is white and the Beastie Boys are Jewish

[JuniperLea]

3. if you think that group you belong to is a social club

where everyone wears sheets and pointy white hats

[JanMichael]

4. If you've benefited from Institutional Racism?

Whoops! That'd make us "White" folks Racists by default...

[Heyo]

5. I agree with those...

... however... and I am not a racist by any stretch of the imagination...

The language spoken in the U.S. is English. And I feel that people who choose to live their lives here should attempt to learn English.

I don't like going into a store or business, and I can't communicate because I don't speak Spanish.

If I went to any other country to live, I would make every effort to learn the local language.

That's not saying I think there's anything wrong with any other language. But you are in the U.S... learn English.

I don't think that makes me racist.

:shrug:

Heyo

[DrWeird]

9. English is THE spoken language in the US?

Really? The guy at the desk next to me is speaking Mandarin. Did China suddenly invade and conquer my portion of the US?

[Heyo]

10. They must've...

....try their orange glazed chicken over white rice! To die for.

:toast:

Heyo

[DrWeird]

12. Do you have a lot of chinese friends?

nt

[Heyo]

17. My best friend for years and years was Vietnamese....

... and a co-worker friend of mine is from Taiwan...

Quite a few other coworkers of various Asian descent...

But no, I am not currently close to any Chinese people, but man you just reminded me about Hein. I wonder how he is doing. I always feel bad about the time both of our bikes got stolen from the school bike rack cause we had locked up together.. with MY lock.. which they cut.

Heyo

[Doohickie]

99. Does your Mandarin-speaking coworker also speak English?

[MsTryska]

199. did he speak mandarin in his interview?

or did he communicate in english?

[Behind the Aegis]

14. I agree

I agree with you and I speak 5 languages! Although there is no "national" language, the language of commerce in the US is English. If someone has come here to live, then they should learn the language. If I were to move to Japan, I would learn to speak, read, and write Japanese and not expect my customers (in my store) to speak English. That being said, there should be better education for those wishing to learn English. Various churches have taken the lead and they do not often do a good job. There is a real market for TESL in this country!

Racist is thinking English should be spoken EVERYWHERE in the world. This is one of the ways the "Nasty American" persona was born, because many would go overseas and demand English be spoken...that is sad!

[Heyo]

21. Exactly...

... and I never understand how when you express this, people make it sound like you are trying to say there is something WRONG with other languages or something.

Not true any more than, to use your example, there is something WRONG with English in Japan. There's not, but Japanese is the language that is spoken there. To me it's a matter of having respect for their customs and culture while visiting there. And I would be interested and WANT to learn the language.... nobody would have to tell me.

Heyo

[CBGLuthier]

19. Switzerland

Switzerland has gotten along fine for hundreds of years with 3 "official" languages, French, German, and Italian.

I do agree that for their own good immigrants should learn as much english as possible. But I buy my smokes from a fine Korean gentleman who doesn't seem to know much english at all.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. True

However, almost all Swiss can communicate in one of those three languages. Immigrants to that country only need know one of those three to get along. A native Swiss would be able to communicate with him/her. However, a speaker of Swahili only would have a hard time and would need to learn one of those languages. Since the US is not multi-lingual in that sense, if one moves to the US, s/he should learn English. It doesn't mean they have to abandon their native tongue, but to survive here, they should know some English, they don't have to be completely fluent. You even indicated the Korean man you know speaks some English, he doesn't demand you know Korean, but acknowledges he needs some English to run a business here.

BB!

[Doohickie]

101. If you don't already know,

Try telling the Korean shopkeeper: "Com sa mi da"... it means "thank you".

(It's actually something like "Com sa hab ni da" but when said quickly sounds more like the way I spelled it in the fist line.)

[SittingInTheMiddle]

253. Well...actually...

Kam sa ham nee da.

(No, I'm not Korean, so it may not be exactly perfect, but that's the way it was taught to me.)

[m berst]

27. misleading I think

I hope I understood your post. The language issue is code for racism IMHO.

For older immigrants, learning English is difficult since the ability to learn language diminishes with age. Often they are busy struggling in low end jobs, ghetto-ized with others who do not speak English, and trying to make their way and support their families on meager incomes.

Many of us have ancestors who never learned to speak English well.

On the other hand, the children of immigrants could not be forcefully prevented from learning English should we want to do that.

So where is the problem exactly?



typos fixed on edit

[DrWeird]

32. I've asked people that question before. What's the problem?

People that believe English should be the official language and enforced.

They say things like:

"I'm sick and tired of haven't to understand foreigners when I go out."

"Go out where?"

"Well, like Mexican restaurants. The waiters only speak Mexican and don't understand if I want to order extra gwackamole, or something."

or

"When I get a machine on the phone, it says for English press 1, for Spanish press 2. I shouldn't have to press 1!"

I'm not making this up..

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Official languages

Almost all nations have a national language. The US is an exception to the rule. I have no issue with other languages being offered to those who could communicate better in their native tonger. However, knowing basics, is VERY important. I never expect an immigrant to speak flawless English, and truth be known, some of them speak better English than native speakers!

The language 'thing' is very scary to Americans because so many do not speak another language. Also, in our culture of fear, they often think others are talking about them and it makes them resentful, which is their own damn issue, IMO! Also, because our government and media demonizes "furiners" as terrorists, knowing or speaking another language makes it more scary.

I am American. I have never lived anywhere but this country. However, I speak multiple languages. I was speaking to a friend of mine in a restaurant. We were both speaking Spanish and French. This asshole leans over and said...speak American or get out! I looked at him and said..."I speak English, I am American, mind your own fucking business!" That is the kind of fear that is out there. We weren't even talking about him...we did after that! :evilgrin:

[Djinn]

73. spouted here a lot

particularly people bring up shopping in certain suburbs where there is a large Vietnamese population with lots of shops with signs in Vietnamese - particularly grocers (don't know if it's that there's heaps of Vietnamese migrants, that they've been quite successful business wise or that they're the community that's most obviously grouped in certain areas??)

My response is always, "well when was the last time you desperately wanted to buy some Nuoc Cham or Goi Cuon" in fact most of them are never anywhere near areas with large numbers of Asian shops anyway.

I actually do buy a lot of food stuffs from the Asian grocer near me, and also the Somali run butcher - while they advertise in their own language because the majority of their customers are strangely enough Vietnamese or Somali or whatever but if you actually bother to ask most people running businesses in English speaking countries DO speak English.

[Behind the Aegis]

126. Why is it wrong?

Why is it wrong to expect the waiter to speak some English? They should be able to understand what the customer is asking for. If I were in Russia, I would expect the waiter to speak anything other than Russian. If they were able to address me in English, that would just be a treat (if I was a visitor to the country). However, if I were living in Russia, I should be able to communicate to the waiter in the native language.

As for example two, that is just stupid and could be racist. I have no issue calling somewhere and being asked to "press 1" for English. Sometimes, I just listen to see how many languages are offered. The one issue I have with it is, "press 1 for English," "press 2 for Spanish" and both commands are IN English! To me, that is silly! "Escoje numero dos para espanol" makes more sense! (I don't know how to make the tilde here).

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Not trying to speak for Heyo

If people are demanding immigrants speak 'perfect' English that is a problem, especially since the president of our nation can't even accomplish that! However, learning enough to 'get by' is acceptable. I can't imagine moving to another country and not at least attempting to learn the native language. I may never speak it like a native, but at least I could 'get by.'

Since this election, my partner and I have thought about leaving the US because we fear what may happen to gays in the next 4 years. One of the places we are looking at is The Netherlands. I told my partner, we need to learn Dutch, even though almost all Dutch speak English. I learn languages very easily, but he doesn't. I told him we couldn't go there if he wasn't going to try to learn. He said as long as I helped him, he would do his best. That is all I can ask, and it is all I ask of those who come to the US to live.

[m berst]

41. well, you've got that

"...it is all I ask of those who come to the US to live..."

That is what people do. Of course. Why wouldn't they? Who is not trying to learn English? I can guarantee you that there will be much less motivation for you to learn Dutch than there is for immigrants here to learn English, because so many Dutch people speak English.

I just don't see the validity of the issue.

I grew up in Detroit and listened to people speaking Polish, Hungarian, Italian, Flemish, Russian, Spanish, German, Czech, Greek, Serbo-Croation, French, Estonian, and other lanhuages. I worked in San Franciso and the majority of my customers spoke Vietnamese, Spanish, Korean, and many other languages.

I don't ever remember having a problem with this. What am I missing?

[Behind the Aegis]

45. what you are missing

Actually, more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in "ghettos" where their native language is spoken. However, if they leave that enclave, they are in trouble because they cannot communicate effectively. When we had large numbers of immigrants come to this country in the early 1900's and after WWII, they refused to teach their children their native tongue because they wanted their children to be able to "get along." To me, that is sad, because knowing another language makes learning English much easier!

If I were to move anywhere there would be less motivation to learn the native language, because so many people do speak English. I, personally, would love that I was learning another language and having people to practice with would motivate me not to use English. But, that is me personally.

Again, if they speak some English and try, then that works for me. The fact is that in the US, English is understood to be the language of use. This does not preclude others from speaking their own language(s). If the basics are known and used, then that is cool by me.

[m berst]

46. oh boy they get to live in ghettos

"...more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in 'ghettos' where their native language is spoken."

Really. Really. My word.

What sorts of people would these be? I don't find this to be any more true today in Detroit than it was in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's.

What are you seeing to back this opinion up?

[Behind the Aegis]

48. ghetto is not a bad word

Some people new to this country will live in neighborhoods, complete with shopping, etc. that cater specifically to their language. I don't think that is a bad thing, unless they don't learn some English. I don't know that I can tell you who "they" are, but several cities throughout the US have small communities within them that cater to a specific language. What I have said, and stand by, is that it is OK to continue to speak and teach your native language, but at least learn some basic English.

I live in Oklahoma and have met quite a few Mexican immigrants who speak no English because they can live and work completely in Spanish in OKC and a few other towns. The problem is if they leave that small community, they will run into problems because they cannot understand basic spoken and written English.

Ghetto can have a negative connotation, but it simply means "neighborhood." I don't see anything wrong with living around others like you.

ON EDIT: I said they CAN live in ghettos. This implies choice. I did not imply they were or are forced there.

[m berst]

56. you connected ghetto with language skills

You said that because of living in ghettos they didn't need to learn English. "Ghettos are not a bad thing" is another subject altogether.

"Some people new to this country will live in neighborhoods, complete with shopping, etc. that cater specifically to their language."

Well that certainly descibes the neighborhood I live in - shopping and everything that caters specifically to my language - English.

"I don't think that is a bad thing, unless they don't learn some English. I don't know that I can tell you who 'they' are, but several cities throughout the US have small communities within them that cater to a specific language. What I have said, and stand by, is that it is OK to continue to speak and teach your native language, but at least learn some basic English."

Why is it up to you to decide what is and what is not OK about any of this? Who are you to judge what is or isn't a "bad thing" for others?

"I live in Oklahoma and have met quite a few Mexican immigrants who speak no English because they can live and work completely in Spanish in OKC and a few other towns. The problem is if they leave that small community, they will run into problems because they cannot understand basic spoken and written English."

Well, that is their problem, then, and really none of your business. I work extensively with the migrant farm worker community, and ghetto-ization is not a matter of choice or privilege. It is a double whammy to be made unwelcome in the Anglo community and then criticized for your lack of English language skills.

"Ghetto can have a negative connotation, but it simply means "neighborhood." I don't see anything wrong with living around others like you."

Uhhh, yes, ghetto can indeed have a negative connotation.

"Others like you?????" What are you talking about? I live on planet earth with the ones who are like me - I call them fellow human beings. They come in a variety of colors, shapes and sizes and speak a variety of languages. None of those superficial qualities make any of them more or less "like me."

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. You made the connection first!

"For older immigrants, learning English is difficult since the ability to learn language diminishes with age. Often they are busy struggling in low end jobs, ghetto-ized with others who do not speak English, and trying to make their way and support their families on meager incomes."

Why are you so concerned that someone else repeated it?

[m berst]

64. I don't have a problem with you using the word

I have a problem with the argument to which you put the word in service.

I was talking about people being forced into ghettos and therefore having limited opportunities to learn English. You talked about ghettos as a choice that allows people to avoid learning English. We are taking the oppositie position. I object to your position, not the words you use.

[Behind the Aegis]

89. the above poster was not me

I don't think anyone should be forced to live anywhere they don't want. And, yes some are forced to live in places they don't want, and that is a problem. It doesn't negate that some do chose to live in certain places. I never said that they chose to live there to "avoid" learning English! I said they chose to live there and didn't have to learn English to survive in their neighborhood, which is fine so long as they never leave that neighborhood. I doubt they live there to "avoid" learning English, but rather live there because it is easier for them to communicate in their native tongue and choose not to learn English.

[m berst]

93. I am so confused

Right. Sorry. I see that someone else jumped in. My mistake.

Still not seeing why it is anybody's business what language people speak.

[Behind the Aegis]

88. two possibilities

Possibility one: you are trying to be obtuse, arrogant, and just plain nasty. IF you are, piss off! There are enough problems to go around without you trying to make more, where none exist!

Possibility two: you are really trying to understand where I am coming from and I have been unclear, leading to miscommunication.

You said that because of living in ghettos they didn't need to learn English. No, I said "Actually, more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in "ghettos" where their native language is spoken." (note: emphasis not in original post)

Well that certainly describes the neighborhood I live in - shopping and everything that caters specifically to my language - English. I am sure it does. However, there are also places in the US where the language for that neighborhood is not English.

Why is it up to you to decide what is and what is not OK about any of this? Who are you to judge what is or isn't a "bad thing" for others? And who are you to judge this a good or bad thing? What I said is that if someone lives in this country (meaning they will be here from more than a visit), they should learn some basic English. It is a bad thing when, as an example, a person has an accident because they could not read the precaution sign written in English.

Well, that is their problem, then, and really none of your business. I work extensively with the migrant farm worker community, and ghetto-ization is not a matter of choice or privilege. It is a double whammy to be made unwelcome in the Anglo community and then criticized for your lack of English language skills. It is a problem for everyone when an emergency arises and help is delayed because a translator is needed first! It is a problem when the person cannot understand basic commands and needs or express them! It is sad when people are placed into bad situations and made to feel less than. However, for those forced into a ghetto that they do not wish to be, they stand a better chance of leaving if they speak English in this country!

"Others like you?????" What are you talking about? I live on planet earth with the ones who are like me - I call them fellow human beings. They come in a variety of colors, shapes and sizes and speak a variety of languages. None of those superficial qualities make any of them more or less "like me." This is where I couldn't tell if you were misunderstanding what I said or just being nasty. So, I will address this as if I didn't make myself clear. Some people like to live around others like them, meaning, they want to live around those who speak their language, share their ethnic background, share their sexual orientation, or countless other examples. There is nothing wrong with wanting to live around people you share something in common with. What would be wrong is to not allow someone who didn't share that quality to live near you. I never implied that other qualities, that you may deem "superficial," are inherently better than others! Does someone Jewish wishing to live in a "Jewish" neighborhood, mean that person thinks they are somehow better than non-Jews because they chose to live there? No!

The original post said it was racist if you think English should be the only spoken language in the US. I would agree because of the word "only." However, I do not think it is racist to expect someone who has come to live in this country to speak the basics of the English language! It is no more racist, than it is anti-American, to expect an American living in Japan to speak some basic Japanese!

Edited bad italics

[m berst]

94. here we are

Possibility one: you are trying to be obtuse, arrogant, and just plain nasty. IF you are, piss off! There are enough problems to go around without you trying to make more, where none exist!"

Possibility two: you are really trying to understand where I am coming from and I have been unclear, leading to miscommunication.

Well, I am not trying to do either. I think that I do understand where you are coming from, and I happen to not agree with you.

You said that because of living in ghettos they didn't need to learn English. No, I said "Actually, more and more people are coming to this country and not learning English because they can live in "ghettos" where their native language is spoken." (note: emphasis not in original post)

I disagree with that, as I stated in my other posts.

Well that certainly describes the neighborhood I live in - shopping and everything that caters specifically to my language - English. I am sure it does. However, there are also places in the US where the language for that neighborhood is not English.

Yes. My question to you is, what is the difference?

What I said is that if someone lives in this country (meaning they will be here from more than a visit), they should learn some basic English. It is a bad thing when, as an example, a person has an accident because they could not read the precaution sign written in English.

Well, they do learn English whether they "should" or not, but my question is still this - of what concern it of yours?

It is a problem for everyone when an emergency arises and help is delayed because a translator is needed first! It is a problem when the person cannot understand basic commands and needs or express them! It is sad when people are placed into bad situations and made to feel less than. However, for those forced into a ghetto that they do not wish to be, they stand a better chance of leaving if they speak English in this country!

We disagree. You are saying people are stuck in ghettos because of poor English skills. I say it is more likely the other way around. The language barrier in emergency situations is a self-defeating argument, since the aid workers in a community are likely to speak the language of the community.

This is where I couldn't tell if you were misunderstanding what I said or just being nasty. So, I will address this as if I didn't make myself clear. Some people like to live around others like them, meaning, they want to live around those who speak their language, share their ethnic background, share their sexual orientation, or countless other examples. There is nothing wrong with wanting to live around people you share something in common with. What would be wrong is to not allow someone who didn't share that quality to live near you. I never implied that other qualities, that you may deem "superficial," are inherently better than others! Does someone Jewish wishing to live in a "Jewish" neighborhood, mean that person thinks they are somehow better than non-Jews because they chose to live there? No!

I disagree with your premise here. This is a common argument that racists have used for generations - "they" like to live among "their own kind" and so do I. Nothing supports this. Every ethnic group historically has assimilated as fast as they can to the degree that they can, and all neighborhoods are not equal. You are espousing the old segregationist "separate but equal" rationale here, and I am disagreeing with you.

The original post said it was racist if you think English should be the only spoken language in the US. I would agree because of the word "only." However, I do not think it is racist to expect someone who has come to live in this country to speak the basics of the English language! It is no more racist, than it is anti-American, to expect an American living in Japan to speak some basic Japanese!

You are correct about the original post, and I am defending it. I am further arguing that the statements you are making to attack the op are incorrect.

[Behind the Aegis]

120. my question answered

It is important that people can communicate with one another. English is the understood language of choice in the US. If someone comes here to live, they should be able to speak passing, basic English.

I disagree with your premise here. This is a common argument that racists have used for generations - "they" like to live among "their own kind" and so do I. Nothing supports this. Every ethnic group historically has assimilated as fast as they can to the degree that they can, and all neighborhoods are not equal. You are espousing the old segregationist "separate but equal" rationale here, and I am disagreeing with you. Actually, some do assimilate and others chose to live in ethnic neighborhoods. During earlier waves of immigration, it was more common to want to assimilate. Today, that is not as strong as it had been. This is probably because they can get many things (services) in their native language, thus eliminating the immediate need to learn English.

I am not espousing anything of the such (separate but equal)! I also rebuke the fact that you have insinuated I am a racist! I am talking about those who CHOOSE to live in ethnic neighborhoods, not people FORCED into them. Let me use an inane example: some universities offer "theme" housing. They can be academic, diversity oriented, or social. Students can CHOOSE to live there or not. No one is FORCED to live there. Those that choose to live there do so because they feel a special bond with others like them. I also know that not all neighborhoods are the same. Not all states are the same. Look at the education gaps in the country and you find that it is not because people are more stupid in one area, but that they do not have the same access to education that others do!

The original post said it was racist if you think English should be the only spoken language in the US. I would agree because of the word "only." However, I do not think it is racist to expect someone who has come to live in this country to speak the basics of the English language! It is no more racist, than it is anti-American, to expect an American living in Japan to speak some basic Japanese!

You are correct about the original post, and I am defending it. I am further arguing that the statements you are making to attack the op are incorrect.

It seems we AGREE that it is racist to demand that English be the ONLY language spoken here! And you can argue my points, but in no way did I "attack" the OP, so I fail to see how you are defending anything other than your opinions, which appear to conflict with some of mine. And, I still assert it is not improper or racist to ask those who wish to live here speak English, as well as any other language they want! It is no more racist to ask one to speak Portuguese in Portugal if you are going to live your life there!

[m berst]

127. you are confusing yourself here

Your main contention, if I am understanding, is that we have this new phenomenon of a certain "them" who wants to not learn English and that this is bad in some way and that something should be done.

All I am saying is that I don't see the new problem you are seeing, don't know why it would be bad if it did exist, and don't know why you care or want something done about it. You still haven't explained or supported any of those ideas.

[Behind the Aegis]

136. clearing this up

Should English be declared the national language? In my opinion, yes! Not because we should deride other languages or cultures, but then there is a "standard language" by which to communicate. According to the US Census, over 7,600,000 US residents do not speak English well. Another, 3,366,000 do not speak any English. Almost 11 million citizens either speak little or no English, I do see that as a problem. To me, it is important that ALL citizens speak the basics of a standard language in order to communicate. What they speak in their homes, neighborhoods, churches, etc, it is their choice of what language to use, but for public discourse, the basics of English should be understood.

Do you think it is racist for other nations to have a declared national language?

[m berst]

143. understood

First, we agree on many things - people being able to communciate is a good thing. English is the most common language in this country, so it is helpful for people to be able to speak it. Some day Republicans may rediscover it. :-)

Here is where we part - and I do appreciate you working through this with me -

What problem would be solved by making English the official language? Immigrants are already learning it as quickly as they need or want to learn it. Their children invariably learn it. So. where is the problem and how does your remedy solve it?

Are there children of immigrants somewhere in this country who are prevented from learning English? I think not. Are there children of immigrants somewhere in the country who are insufficiently motivated to learn English? I think not. That means that the situation today is precisely as it was 100 or 200 years ago when many iof our ancestors came here. Perhaps they themselves were too old to ever learn English, but it is a self-correcting problem, because wild horses could not prevent their children from learning English.

[Behind the Aegis]

146. awesome!

I am glad we have realized we do have some points in common! And, I hope the Rethugs do learn English, but it might help if they had a positive example as opposed to the boob in the WH who can't say simple things!

It is my opinion that English declared as our national language would codify the language as THE language that is to be spoken in business and public discourse. Now, if a company all understand, let's say Polish, then I see no problem requiring the employee to be able to speak both English and Polish for business purposes.

The vast majority in this country only speak English and I believe it would be counter-productive to have another language as the preferred language. However, as we evolve as a nation, perhaps we will be like the Swiss and speak numerous languages as we once did. Having a national language is also a matter of pride (something not really lacking in this country).

All that being said, English-only would be a negative policy and, again, my opinion, would restrict the growth of our country. So, would the declaration of a national language solve any real problems? Probably not, but it also wouldn't hurt anything either.

[m berst]

147. only one possible harm

It is part of the bigot's agenda. The Republicans will use any English only initiatives as a tool to mistreat and oppress people.

The real problem in this country IMHO is not that we are insufficiently homogenized or that we need to teach fewer languages - quite the contrary.

[Behind the Aegis]

150. bigots

I agree. The thought that declaring English as the national language would allow some bigots to get rid of things already in place in other languages does upset me.

This country originally started as a polyglot nation. It evolved into an English-speaking nation. It may continue to evolve into a bi- or multi-lingual nation. But having a national language(s) doesn't seem to be that problematic to me.

Just out of curiosity, do you speak any other languages? I speak (with varying fluency) 6 and know sign language (ASL).

[m berst]

153. wow!

OK I will shut up now. Which 6 languages?

I muddle along in German a little, and know 100 words and 20 phrases in each of a couple of dozen languages.

[Behind the Aegis]

155. languages

Just a side note...in another post, we seem to thinking along the same lines! :) I just read where you posted to something I wrote in another thread. I am glad I chose to continue this debate with you!

I speak English (of course..haha), Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and some German. I can read and write Hebrew and Greek, some Russian. I know a smattering of phrases in Swahili, Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, and Arabic. I used to know some Hungarian, Thai, Tagalog, and Korean, but remember very little, maybe two words or sayings.

And! I have never been out of the United States (except to the Bahamas!). :)

I studied multiple languages in college, have a degree in Spanish, and actually teach myself languages when I get bored!

Bragging can be fun! :evilgrin:

[m berst]

158. brag away!

Man, I am impressed. No wonder you think it is no big deal for others to learn new languages! ;-)

I am that way about learning new musical styles - I play Spanish, Mexican, Italian, Hungarian, Russian, Ukrainian, etc. folk styles and always learning more. Kinda like you are with languages I guess?

Where are we on the same side on a thread?

Thanks for hanging in there. I am pretty opinionated. I hate it when people bail on a conversation before they reach an understanding.

[Behind the Aegis]

164. Thanks!

I am proud of my language talent. It is one area I really enjoy and often encourage others to learn. I have taught English to non-native speakers.

As for our agreement thread, I'm sick and tired of people of faith pretending they are the oppressed.

As I am sure you can tell, I am very opinionated too! Especially about language and diversity issues. I used to give diversity seminars when I had a job!

Thanks for the discourse!

[m berst]

166. oh, right!

I recognized your username, but I couldn't place it.

"Often, those in power project what they are in fact guilty of. I see Christians claiming discrimination or oppression but ignore their own actual discriminatory acts. I see whites bitching about not having a "White History Month." I see straights complaining about "Why is their no Straight Pride Parade?" The majority tries to play role of victim when a minority group makes a move for equality. It is NOT to say that discrimination against those in majority does not occur, because we all know it does. But, if it occurred as much as minority discrimination occurred, I think there would be many in the majority who might change their tunes! They would finally understand true discrimination and oppression!"

You nailed it there!

Consider this your official virtual "pat on the back!" Well done, and it is a pleasure reading your views and ideas.

[Behind the Aegis]

169. Again, thanks.

I appreciate the kudos. I do honestly believe in the equality of all people and I see many who get tripped up on delicate issues because they are not allowed to "think it through" without being ripped apart first. As an educator, it is more important for me to try and educate than to "win" any debate or discussion.

Open one mind, open one heart, and many more will follow!

Brightest Blessings!

[m berst]

159. should have replied here

I accidentally replied to myself. So dazzled by the description of your linguistic skills that I got confused. :-)

[Doohickie]

103. Living in ghettos is a "new" thing?

Come on. A hundred years ago, lots of cities had "Little Italy", "Little Warsaw", etc. The immigrant groups have changed; the path to assimilation is strangely familiar.

My great-grandparents moved here from Poland; my grandparents who were born here lived in Polish neighborhoods where English was rare (although they learned it eventually), my parents learned Polish before English, and my mom made us kids, the fourth generation here in the States, the first "American" generation in our family because she taught us only English. In retrospect, she wishes she had taught us Polish, but I may try to pick it up one of these days.

[datasuspect]

181. i think

you're being nostalgic.

during the late 19th/early 20th centuries, immigrant communities were enclaves where native languages and customs were kept ALIVE.

immigrants trying to stay in their "ghettoes" to retain their cultural identity in a foreign land is no new phenomenon.

you make it seem like immigrants are maliciously clinging to their language to affront americans.

[Behind the Aegis]

204. hello

I don't think immigrants are "maliciously clinging" to their language or culture to affront Americans. If anyone is "maliciously clinging" to their language or culture to affront anyone I would say it would be some Americans.

I think we agree, in some respect, to your other assertions.

[Heyo]

157. Yes, but you could've been speaking for me..

....well said.

I am guessing this point would've been assumed: I am not saying be fluent, and be able to recite English poetry with perfect intonation.

Just enough to get by, enough to go in a resteraunt and order, enough to understand what a doctor, paramedic, or fire department personnel or police might be saying, etc.

Behind the Ageis, when you went over to the Netherlands, and imagine they *didn't* peak much English, and somebody sort of expected you to know some Dutch when they talked to you... would you honestly feel discriminated against?

Would anybody?

Heyo

[Behind the Aegis]

168. hi..glad I didn't totally misrepresent you

I never went to The Netherlands, it is just one of the places my partner and I are thinking of "fleeing" to! And, no, I would not feel discriminated against if a Dutch person didn't speak English to me while I was in Holland! Especially, if I was choosing to live there. Although, most Dutch do speak some English, as do most Europeans.

You and I agree. I am not asking for perfect English...Hell, the boob in the WH cannot speak proper English, I am sure not expect someone moving here to be able to speak perfectly! I just expect that the basics are known.

BB!

[Heyo]

154. The language issue is *not* code for racism..

...if that's true, I guess I am a racist. But you would have to know me personally to know how far fetched that is, I guess.

If went to another country to live, and was expected to learn the language in order to get by, do you think I would consider that they are being *prejudiced* against me? Ridiculous.

The funny thing is a lot of my minority friends, including Hispanics, feel the same way as me.

My great grandfather passed away at the age of 96 in 1990. He migrated from Germany in 1958. He went to his grave without ever learning a word of English. It made things more difficult than they could've been. If he would've learned English he would've had a lot of things go a lot easier. He had us to (gladly) help him make his phone calls for him regarding his pension, banking business and what have you.

I believe that a person can learn a language almost any at any age, unless they are really, really old.

This has nothing do with any specific race, nor just America. You go to another country to live permanently, you really should try and learn the basics of the language that is spoken there. It makes life alot easier on YOU, #2, and it makes it much easier to communicate with you in case of an emergency.

What if there is a fire or something, and emergency personnel are shouting instructions to a trapped person in English, a language that they don't understand. It takes time to get a foreign language speaking officer at the scene, etc.

It just seems like it makes sense to me. That whole "When in Rome..." deal. Be careful throwing around that race card.

:toast:

regards,

Heyo

[Pithlet]

167. The more you type

the more the "I'm not a racist" argument is looking worse for you. In one post you manage to use multiple terms that racists love to use. I wouldn't have pegged you as a racist based on your first post in this thread. I could defend that post against charges of racism, even if I thought you were wrong. This one, however...

Using the phrase "throwing around the race card" alone deducts an awful lot of points.

[Heyo]

176. Oh my!

I lost some points?! Where's my violin? :nopity:

I'm supposed to sit here and try to convince you I'm not a racist? What a joke. If you actually knew me, you'd realize how dumb you sound.

Look, if you try hard enough, you can make anyone or anything out to seem prejudiced. Good luck with that!

:toast:

on edit: Heyo

on edit again: I take back calling you dumb. I realize you just don't know me, therefore don't know nay better.

[Pithlet]

206. You don't have to do a thing you don't want to

But, if you're going to post, expect that people are going to respond.

If I remember correctly, you've admitted that you're a Republican, back when you first joined. If that is so, then pardon me if I don't think that your opinion of my intelligence matters all that much. I also never insulted your intelligence, or even accused you of being a racist. I just said that some of your statements sounded racist. So, if you want insults, try another board, particularly one that leans more toward your beliefs politically. You may have taken it back, but I saw what you posted. And I think THAT, more than anything else, shows your true colors.

[Heyo]

208. Nope..

... I am not a Republican.

Conservative on some issues, yeah. But always Independant.

(Read my 1000th post, if that's still possible, to get more on that, I explained it all then.. archived maybe?.. all for another story anyway.. besides, it shouldn't matter)

"I also never insulted your intelligence, or even accused you of being a racist. I just said that some of your statements sounded racist. "

As far as I am concerned, if you make racist statements, that sort of makes you a racist. If you are saying somebone makes racist statements, it pretty much equates to calling them one. Forgive me, but I am having a hard time separating those two concepts. This is why I took slight offense to what you said.

"You may have taken it back, but I saw what you posted."

That's why I left it there, instead of editing it out, and I posted a retraction. So you could see what I said, and then the retraction.

I didn't personally call you dumb. I said that calling me a racist is dumb, and if you knew me you'd understand. Doesn't mean you are not smart. Even the smartest people say things sometimes that are wrong. Hence my retraction aknowledging that.

:toast:

Heyo

[Pithlet]

209. I tried to make it clear

that I wasn't calling you a racist. That some of the terminology you were using was the same thing that racists use. "Race card" for example. If you're going to claim that you aren't a racist, I was trying to nudge you into looking at what you're saying, because it might make you appear otherwise. That was what my whole points joke was about. I guess that didn't go over the way I thought it would.

I would have sworn I remember you saying you're a Republican, or something to that effect, but if you say otherwise, then I believe you. I can't look in archives anyway :evilgrin: But, you're definitely a bit further to the right of me, and I don't need archives to tell me that :)

[Heyo]

235. Right on...

... it's cool we understand each other. No harm done. :toast:

However, I (respectfully) reject your notion that somebody who uses the term "race card" is a racist.

Playing the "race card" simply means (to me, anyways) injecting the notion of racism into a situation where there previously was none, in order to skew the situation a certain way or to demonize an individual or group of people. Or, to throw the accustation of "well you're just a racist!" out there as a last resort when one is losing an argument, so as to tar the other person with the "racist" label, whether it's true or not, which is a brand I would imagine is pretty hard to shake, too, so it would suck to be branded as such if you're not racist to the bottom of your heart.

That's the way I see it. To simplify, it's crying racism where there is none. And I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that that does take place.

Heyo

[Pithlet]

273. My response

In the context of what is being discussed in this thread, I think the claim of "race card" was unwarranted. I know that there are instances where claims of racism aren't based in fact. But, the person making that claim almost always feels that race was an issue, and it is because 9 times out of 10, it usually IS an issue. I would question the facts, but I wouldn't throw an accusation like "playing the race card" at them. I don't think that "race card" is an accusation that can ever come from a member of the majority without their motives questioned.

In other words, you can make an argument for yourself that your motives for believing in the "English only" movement aren't racially motivated. But, you cannot make that call for everyone else, particularly for the people at whom the prejudices are aimed. And, try to look at why that is so. I think the problem is that a vast majority of people with racist views don't think they are racist, or that their views are racist. So, when confronted with their prejudices, they vehemently defend themselves instead of looking at the argument. And they do so in much the same way you have in this thread.

[Cleita]

210. My feelings are you should make an effort to learn

the language(s) of the country you are living in, however, I think people have a right to speak in their native language to each other, yet time after time, English speakers will complain about another language spoken around them by speakers of those languages who are talking among themselves. I once worked in a place with African Americans and Persians in the majority. Everyone spoke English when it related to the job, however, the African Americans would talk in Ebonics among themselves and the Persians in Pharsi.

So one day some Middle America type starts whining that everyone should speak English because this is America. Needless to say she got shot down, being in the minority there. But this is what I am saying, when people are among their own, they tend to speak the language they are comfortable in. When someone insists that they have to understand everything that is being said, when it has nothing to do with them, it's racist.

When I grew up in Chile with a group of expat Americans, Chileans and Germans, we developed a patois that was a combination of all three languages. No one understood us except each other. We always made a point though of conducting conversations in the language of the person present if he was outside the inner circle.

As far as languages in America. I am constantly amused by white people in California and Texas who think Spanish should be outlawed. Texas and California were colonies of Spain at one time and the official language was Spanish. So I agree everyone should be English, in those states, however, English speaking Americans should also make an effort to learn Spanish. Both these states and New Mexico are bilingual states, not just English speaking or just Spanish speaking.

[SmokingJacket]

44. Why do you care what language others choose to speak?

I mean, so what?

This "you should," "they should" stuff stinks. Lead your own life. Let them live theirs.

[DrWeird]

47. Most people like this...

when they hear people talking in a different language, they get upset because they think their talking about him/her behind his/her back. That, or the just think English is superior.

"I want everybody to speak English, just like Jesus did," said the Republican.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

60. Or maybe it's about communication.......

.....the lack of it is the biggest problem in America today.

[m berst]

69. abuse of English is the problem

There is a very good political reason for maintaining multiple languages in the US, and that is because the tyrants have so co-opted the English language for propaganda that it has made communication just about impossible. Lots of words fly around that are English language words, but very little comprehension or understand results from this.

English-only laws or "English is the official language" laws, actually make no more sense than laws forbidding the use of English would now that I think about it. If we could do away with right wing propaganda in the proces, I would happily give up English and start over from scratch in a language that I am not fluent in. I would choose freedom over convenience.

(second paragraph is tongue in cheek, of course)

[progdonkey]

112. that's only with a few idiots...

I can only state how I feel, but I seem to be largely in line with Heyo.

It's not a matter of "I speak English and you should speak English because I speak English and I'm better than you," but an issue of "you should learn English because that is what most people in this country speak, it's what our laws are written in, and you will be destroying a barrier to higher employment or better business if you learn it." If I were to work in Germany, I'd expect Germans to expect me to speak German. Same in France. Same in Japan.

It's not a matter of language superiority, but of simple efficiency: it's frankly easier and cheaper for one immigrant to learn the local language than for all of the locals to learn the language of every immigrant that enters their country.

[Heyo]

161. Peple can do whatever they wish....

It's a free country.

But if I am a paramedic, who only speaks English, and I am trying to communicate with some frightened person who might be having a heart attack, or communicate with that person's family, and they cannot understand me, you bet your ass I will want them to speak English.

And if they don't.. yes there will be some "they shoul've" and "I wish they would've" going through my mind.

:party:

Heyo

[yardwork]

74. I don't think that there is a problem with immigrants speaking languages

other than English. I've never met anybody who lived in the U.S. and didn't want to learn and use English. Older people have a little trouble, but they still try. Their children grow up speaking English.

It just isn't a problem. The idea that there are millions of stubborn immigrants in the United States refusing to learn English is just a myth.

[m berst]

97. of course

There is no argument about the use of languages other than English that holds up under any questioning at all. Ergo, there must be another factor at play, and I belive that it is racism.

If it is OK to teach Spanish in a public school where there are no immigrants from Spanish speaking countries, why is it NOT ok when there are immigrants - or descendants of immigrants - in the school? Race is the only variable that we have introduced in the second scenario as opposed to the first.

[Heyo]

162. This is true....

.... there isn't a large number of people who don't speak English. This discussion originated as just a response to that particular item on the "racist" list. (the original post)

Heyo

[Pithlet]

165. I don't know if racist is the word.

But, it makes you wrong.

I just love it when people are offended when anyone speaks a language other than English. As if it were an affront to THEM. How dare they live and breath in the good ol' U S of A without speaking our language? As if someone could come to this country and learn to speak the language enough to be well understood by a native in 3 weeks or less. Did it ever occur to you that the person that irritates you so much is trying to learn the language? No, your viewpoint doesn't come off as racist, it comes off as incredibly self centered.

[Im_Your_Huckleberry]

213. i know it's difficult, nevertheless, i agree.

[noahmijo]

6. You live in Arizona and you voted for Prop 200

If this is you, you are to cease eating all fruits and vegetables while living in this state.

Why? cause given the fact that virtually produce you eat here in Az is picked by them damn "Brown People who speak Mexican" you might catch a disease.

[DelawareValleyDem]

8. You scream that Affirmative Action

will be the downfall of a merit based society but don't say a word about nepotism, cronyism, or patronage jobs

[m berst]

11. a few more

- if you think that there is such a thing as "reverse racism"

- if you demand that someone "prove" that you are a racist

- if you think "pc speech" has something to do with racism

- if you think the concept of "race" has any validity or meaning as a way to categorize people

- if you think you can "prove" that you are NOT racist

- if you think being called a racist is mean or unjust treatment

- if you believe that "playing the race card" can "work both ways"

- if you think suburbia would exist without racism

- if you think that the war on drugs would exist without racism

- if you think of "them" as a group

- if you are unaware of dozens of racist comments in the mass media every day

- if you imagine yourself to be completely free of harboring any racist attitudes

on edit - if you find yourself experiencing a quick negative reaction when you read any of these

[mark414]

15. word up

couldn't have said it better, especially the first and last

[lastliberalintexas]

38. I actually disagree somewhat

I think that suburbs, the war on drugs and the like would exist even without racism. Maybe not to the extent or in the same manner as they do with it, but they would be there. People always need an excuse to feel superior to someone else, whether it's because of race or economic strata.

Certainly not all, but many of the attitudes of racism cross the lines into classism as well.

[UncleSepp]

40. Suburbs?

The classical city of Rome had suburbs. Cities that are more or less monocultural have suburbs. I always thought that suburbs were about sacrificing the convenience of living in a city for the ability to purchase or rent more land for less money, or conversely, sacrificing the even lower rural prices for the convenience of closer schools, churches, grocery stores, and so forth. How are they based on racism?

[m berst]

43. I don't mean the concept of suburbs

I am talking about the post war American suburbanization of life. It has become a distinct blind spot for many liberals today, but that is because we have become accustomed to it and accept it now. There was a time when for Dems the idea of suburbs and the phenomenon of "white flight" were seen as one and the same. It is no coded as "school problems" and "drug problems" and "crime problems" and we are supposed to imagine that race has nothing to do with it.

When we fail to see the ways in which racism corrupts the souls and destroys the lives of the oppressors, we fail to see the problem in its entirety and we cripple our ability to combat it.

The "school problem" just like the "drug problem" and the "crime probem" is coded language for war on African Americans and poor people IMHO. It is scapegoating and projection at its worst.

This has been thirty years and more in the making, and the pattern is always the same. Ghetto-ize the poor and minorites, strip the wealth out of the city, set up little Potemkin Village enclaves in the suburbs, maniplulate the government to maintain the status quo and then blame all of your problems on "them" down there in the city.

For thirty years whites fled Detroit, always saying "no it isn't (Negroes, Blacks, African Americans) I object to. It's just that it is important to me that my kids go to a better school." Who could argue with that? "It's for the kids!" Sigh.... Now that everyone has abandoned the city to "get their kids into a better school" suddenly the schools are no good and suddenly their children is not learning?

The desire to get away from "them" is some sort of spiritual sickness and lying about it compounds the depravity and insanity. That depravity and insanity are what is actually wrong with the people in the suburbs, not drugs, crimes, gangs or schools. People went to the suburbs so they could have their own little school district and their own little municipal government and create the perfect lives for themselves. Apparently it didn't work out since they are growing ever more unhappy and vindictive.

Meanwhile, home equity in the city collapses (when 2/3 of the people - the whites - aren't bidding on your property, the value goes down by 2/3) and the city is surrounded by hostile neighbors and a hostile state government, there are bound to be a few problems on the city. Still, I will say from my direct experience that with far, far fewer resources and far more problems to deal with, the minority neighborhoods do a far, far better job of coping then the whiny self-indulgent suburbanites do.

By any measure - voter participation, voter awareness and knowledge, parent participation in the schools, neighborhood organizations, involvement of the churches in neighborhood programs - the poor communities are doing a better job than the suburbs are. People in the suburbs are seduced by an ethic of buying happiness and trying to keep the realities of life at bay.

Things are screwed up in the suburbs, no doubt. Perhaps that is why in Oakland county north of Detroit, the wealthiest county in Michigan, over one third of the adults are taking prescription mood altering drugs. There is a hollow core in the hearts of too many people, as they have become 24 hour a day self-indulgent consumers and strive to climb to the top of the heap. It is immoral to project that malaise and unhappiness onto the poor and the minorities as though they were the source of the problems.

I believe that racism and white flight, and the consequent disconnection from reality and self delusion, is what triggered this escapist and anchorless malaise. You can only run so far, and money and prestige are fool's gold.

Building the suburbs destroyed our cities and our environment, ended public transportation, led to chains and malls, destroyed community and family life and distorted and weakened our economy. I am sorry that it didn't all work out for suburbanites the way that they had hoped it would, and I am sorry that they are depressed and anxiety ridden now, but I am much, much, more sorry for those who were climbed over and left behind, which is 70% of the American population and 99.999% of the world population.

[UncleSepp]

195. Not all suburbs are alike

You describe Detroit very well, but not all cities are Detroit. My city is Seattle, and it is quite different. One of the problems Seattle has is not that no one is bidding on property in the city, it's that too many people are. Property values in-city here are some of the most inflated in the country, making it difficult for middle income and lower income people to buy homes or even to rent them in the city itself. This has a chilling effect on the vibrancy and character of the city's downtown neighborhoods as affordable apartments are replaced by pricey condominiums. Bellevue, one of the suburbs of Seattle, has absorbed all kinds of people at all kinds of income levels as this real estate trend continues. There are McMansions, older neighborhoods of moderately sized houses, and condos and apartments ranging from brand new townhouses to apartment complexes well past their prime. In any of the neighborhoods, there lives a diverse mix of races and cultures. It's the same in the city of Seattle, too. Here, it's not about race.

Not all people, not all cities, and not all suburbs or rural towns are the same. People will try to get the most value for their money, but not everyone has the same definition of value. For some, it's an extra bedroom or a yard. For others, a short commute or the ability to do without a car entirely. For others still, it's windows without bars on them or buildings with bars in them.

Before it comes up, yes, I'm white. No, I'm not a suburbanite. I hate the suburbs and give up the money and the commute time to live in Seattle proper. That's my choice for getting value for my dollars. My value is in not having to use a car for anything but getting to work, and in being close to interesting things to do. I like having bars and restaurants downstairs of apartments and businesses, and I get a kick out of walking to the opera house.

Opera house. Hm, that makes me sound like a privileged whitey, doesn't it? All I inherited was a fighting spirit, and that has been enough. My family goes back to the Appalachians. My grandparents all migrated as young adults to Michigan in search of jobs outside the mines. Both my parents grew up in Detroit, near Stoepel Park. My father grew up in a postwar housing project near there, a place much nicer than the house my mother's family lived in. Eventually both families were able to buy houses in the area. I remember visiting both my grandmothers' houses there - one was on Minock, I don't remember the other address. Both women lived there until after they were widowed and could no longer live alone. One moved to Florida to be near her sons, and the other moved out to a farmhouse with her oldest daughter, who wanted to live where she could have large animals. Is it somehow racist that an old lady moves out to live with her daughter, some goats, and a horse?

One grandmother complained about crime, but there's no way anyone can convince me her complaining was really about race. The woman's purse had been stolen so many times that she slit the strap so it would break easier and put her money elsewhere on her person, and she had fingers broken when her home was invaded. It was about crime, her purse, and her broken fingers.

No, I don't pretend my story is typical. Everyone's story is different, that's the funny thing about people. Yes, what has happened to Detroit is a damnable shame. However, characterizing all suburbanites everywhere as whiny, racist, Prozac-popping, self-indulgent white people is neither realistic nor helpful. In fact, it comes across as pretty bigoted to me against people who have made a lifestyle choice you would not choose for yourself.

[m berst]

212. thanks Jen

Yes, I lived in the Bay Area for a few years, and you are correct I think that things are different on the west coast. Thanks for your thoughtful reply and excellent observations.

Your background is similar to mine. And, I love opera. :-)

I think that we make a mistake when we personalize the issue of racism, and this is something that people didn't used to do. Calling others racist, or defending ourselves from supposed charges of racism, mucks the whole discussion up, I think.

You know, though, just between you and me - does it not tell us something about ourselves that when someone talks about the broad pattern of racism in this country we often feel compelled to defend our own personal decisions?

Thanks again for the great response.

[UncleSepp]

231. You're welcome!

It does say something that when the subject of racism comes up, no party to the discussion can go without defending their position. In a way, it may be a good thing, since it seems to indicate that every individual feels as if they have to be either part of the problem or part of the solution.

Things are so different out here. I also lived in Texas and in Florida, and there was quite a lot of racial and economic tension in school and in the workplace. I think I know the exact moment when I realized just how different it is in the little bubble I live in now. A friend I work with, an Indian woman, was taking a coffee break with me outside. We were watching a redhead go by, and she turned to me and said "You people are so lucky - you get to have all different colors of hair." :-D

I wish it were always that easy! I've got this hair, you've got that hair, she's got these eyes, he's got those eyes - and that's that.

[cattleman22]

53. RE: Reverse racism

I think that some people of every race are racists. My guess is that a white person is just as likely to be racist towards blacks as a black person is likely to be racist towards whites. I do not think any race is immune from this human emotion.

[m berst]

57. racism isn't an emotion

Racism is not based on anything real, either. Reverse racism is a concept that has no merit. Race is a concept that has no merit. Judging someone based on the color of their skin is just stupidity. Using skin color, on the other hand, as an excuse for oppresssing a group of people is racism. It has a history, and it is not universal nor does it "work both ways."

[cattleman22]

179. Emotion was the wrong word for me to use

Racism is a feeling based on emotions. Racism is based on a mixture of fear, hatred, and ignorance. Why do you think that the feeling of racism is not present in some people every skin color?

I do not understand why you think that whites can be racist towards blacks but that blacks can not be racist towards whites?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

237. And my (least) favorites:

--"I'm not racist, I'm just telling an unpopular truth."

--"I'm not racist. I just don't feel comfortable in the presence of THEM."

--"I'm not racist, but I've never met one of THEM who could be trusted/who was very bright/who didn't have a bad attitude/who knew what an honest day's work is."

--"THEY don't want to work." "So why did you move your company from the city to a small town?" "So I wouldn't have to hire any of THEM."

--"Couples contemplating an inter-racial relationship should think of their potential children, who won't be accepted by either side."

--"I moved to the suburbs to get away from crime and drugs."

--"I don't want a transit line running out here because then THEY will come in and try to recruit our children into gangs." (Actual part of a whispering campaign before a vote on funding a transit line in Portland a few years ago.)

[Jack Schitt]

13. I don't have ten, but...

my roommate (repuke) told me this the other day: African-Americans and Latinos are the reason why our cities are so "dumpy" and that our crime rates are so high.

:eyes:

:grr:

I really hate racist people.

[lucabrasi]

16. You begin with "I'm not a racist but" ... blah blah

[NightTrain]

18. You may be a racist if...

...you begin a sentence, "I'm not prejudiced, but...."

[murielm99]

22. Or, with,

"Some of my best friends are...."

[lucabrasi]

23. I'm not prejudiced, but

your post is quite similar to mine. :)

[NightTrain]

24. Great minds think alike!

:hi:

[AlienGirl]

20. If you think racists just have a "difference of opinion" with minorities

If you think it's disrespectful to say "cross-burning" instead of "cross-LIGHTING"

If you think it's perfectly OK to tell racist jokes because "every group tells them about someone"

Tucker

[NightTrain]

26. ...you create (or frequently) a website like this one....

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm

[GRLMGC]

29. good lord! n/t

[lucabrasi]

28. You own a pair of

http://naawp.com/generalstore/caucasian_jeans.htm

[NightTrain]

31. From the same website....

[sadinred]

54. When you're talking

to people of the same race you are and you say, when speaking of some one who is a different race "she's a cool white person" or "he's a really nice black guy". I hear this all the time. Drives me crazy.

edit: Sorry menat to respond to #1

[David Zephyr]

30. If You Believe That Undocumented Workers Should Not Have Drivers Licenses

This seems to be the wedge issue du jour.

I love to listen to "liberals" rationalize why undocumented workers should be prohibited from obtaining drivers licenses. It's great fun.

[cattleman22]

50. How is it racist to think that people should only come to the US legally?

[David Zephyr]

55. Here's A Few of Those "Stubborn Facts"

I will address this issue in my own home state, the great Golden State of California.

75% of all of our agricultural workers in California are undocumented workers. 35% of all of our construction workers here in California are undocumented workers.

These good people who are working our fields and building our homes drive their trucks and cars to work each day. They also drive to drop their kids off at school each day (whether one likes it or not) without licenses, without insurance.

I think that they should have drivers licenses because it is the decent thing to do. But, there are even very practical reasons as well.

Wouldn't it be better if they had licenses and insurance? Wouldn't it be better for "homeland security" if all these drivers had legal licenses with their photograph and addresses, perhaps even fingerprints? Wouldn't it be the honest thing to recognize that these families are here?

[m berst]

71. that is an easy one

Because the anti-immigrant arguments are never used when we are talking about undocumented visitors from Canada, England or Australia. Because it is much harder for non-whites to become documented. Because documentation is not cut and dried and simple. Because documentation doesn't prevent people being treated as "illegal" and "alien" - it is skin color that makes a person "illegal" and an "alien."

The very words "illegal" and "alien" are racist and perjorative. Most of the workers crossing the border with Mexico are descended from people with a much stronger claim to live in North America than are most Anglo American citizens. "Alien" .... well, that is pretty obvious.

Imagine - people being referred to as "being illegal" and as "aliens." It is truly disgusting.

[David Zephyr]

78. Great Post!

:thumbsup:

[cattleman22]

180. Only white people can do something illegal and people of color can not?

I am really confused by your post. How is it disgusting to say that a person who broke the law when immigrating to the US is an illegal immigrant? How can the word illegal be racist? It is not based on skin color at all.



I am curious why you think these arguments are never used about immigrants from "white" countires. There is a movement to reduce the number of documented workers from these countires. Is that also racist?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

239. Right--before Ireland's economy started booming

there were lots of Irish living illegally in East Coast cities. No one ever complained about them.

[m berst]

262. yes, in Detroit as well

Thousands. with no outcry. No problem.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned the Canadian illegals we have in Detroit as an example. One would think that any liberal would be able to instantly see that there is a racist strain in the anti-immigrant arguments when they compare the way white and non-white immigrants are treated and thought of. Shocking really that so many continue to argue about it here.

It isn't really a matter of differing opinions on this, but either ignorance or people who are not really liberals by any stretch of the imagination.

Why would someone defend their position on immigration on a thread talking about racism? The fact that they do proves the original poster's point that immigration issues are code speak for racism, doesn't it? Otherwise, why not acknowledge that anti-immigration issues are a haven for racists, and let it go? Argue immigration policy on an immigration policy thread. But no! They have to "prove" that they aren't racists. Hmmmmm.....

[cattleman22]

271. Who brought immigration into the conversation?

{{Why would someone defend their position on immigration on a thread talking about racism? }}



Because everyone, no matter why, who supports some limits on immigration was labled a racist. Don't you expect those who have other, non racist motivations to defend themselves?




{{Otherwise, why not acknowledge that anti-immigration issues are a haven for racists, and let it go? }}


There is a distinction I do not think you have caught. I acknowledge that many, maybe even most people that limiting immigration is due to racism. However, not everyone has a racist motivation.

[m berst]

80. it happens in Detroit....

They come over by the thousands. They cross by the bridge or the tunnel. They get jobs. They live in little communities of people just like them! They get in on some ruse, like a work permit, or they just sneak across. Then they stay and they go for years without ever being detected.

Illegal aliens!!!

In Detroit, we call them "Canadians" and for some reaon no one ever mentions them when they get lathered up about immigration.

[Nestea]

201. I think they should have licenses

I definitely agree.

I also believe that once they have licenses, anyone(white, black, latino) caught driving without insurance(immigrant or not), should have their license revoked immediately, and the next time they are caught driving without it, should be thrown in jail.

There is nothing worse than an indigent ramming into the back of your car and having no money to pay you with, so you have to pay for the damage to your car out of your own pocket. :\

[natrat]

34. what about this

you think allot of Muslims and Christians are intolerant and dislike their religions--i am struggling with this , i think i am prejudiced

[lucabrasi]

35. ... if this is hanging on your wall

Source

[ContraBass Black]

37. YOu describe Hispanics as if they're a cockrach infestation

And are shocked when blacks don't join in.

[Karenina]

39. You may be racist if

you were born into the dominant culture in America.

[Lone Pawn]

66. Or any culture in America

by that token.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. 11. When commenting a news item that tells of a black person...

...suing upon being the target of a racial slur, you say, "I wonder if blacks who shout 'whitey boy' at us can be sued too."

One of my Engineering schoolmates said that today on a schoolmates mailing list.

Smoking gun if you ask me.

Edit: proper grammar

[Lone Pawn]

67. Don't think that alone makes him a racist

He might actually be a racist, but being an engineer (at least from the personalities of all my engineering-major friends) he was probably just wondering aloud. It is an interesting question, and any reasoned answer would be quite revealing. Of course, if he was indignant that a white was being sued, then perhaps he is a racist. Or, perhaps he's an extreme social-contract libertarian who believes the government on principle should never enforce morality, no matter how immoral the action. I'd really like to give people the benefit of the doubt before I'd call them racist.

[m berst]

72. possible, but highly unlikely

The idea of "being a racist" as opposed to "having racist attitudes" probably trips us up here. Thinking of racism as a state of being rather than a set of attitudes and behaviors leads to people defending themselves and others from "charges of being a racist" as though that were the worst thing that could ever befall a person. People who discuss it that way betray a woeful lack of understanding about racism.

Rush Limbaugh says "I am not a racist!" and defie anyone to prove otherwise, as though there were some surgical procedure to determine who is or who isn't a racist. Meanwhile, he builds an entire career on pandering to racist attiudes and instructs people day after day how to defend and justify their racist attitudes with code phrases and careful use of deceptive language.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

182. Hence the thread title "You MAY be a racist if..."

On an unrelated (but not completely) note, half of this person's posts in that list have the subject line "Workers' Party" and are dedicated to bashing anything Lula.

When someone suggested a boycott of American products, it was he who most intensely responded against.

See a pattern emerge?

[cattleman22]

51. About #1

How is that racist? I think that immigration increases the labor supply making wages go down. This opinion may be protectionist or maybe even nationalise, but I fail to see how it is racist.

[Cleita]

59. It's a documented fact that immigrants do the jobs

Americans don't want to do, so how would they be taking jobs from anyone? Union busting and widespread unemployment is what brings wages down, not immigration and that is happening because our jobs are emigrating to foreign countries not the other way around.

[cattleman22]

183. Documented facts?

Could you show me the documents that prove that immigrants only do jobs that no American would ever do?

I do not believe your statement is accurate. My parents own a cattle farm. One of the jobs they hire out is cleaning up brush that grows along the fence rows. They usually hire documented workers from Mexico to do this work for about $8.00 an hour. However, there are native born Americans who would do this work for about $15 an hour. Based on my experience, your statement about documented fact is innacurate.



I also wonder why you think that sending a job from the US to another country hurts American workers, but sending a forein worker to do a job in the US does not hurt american workers.

[Cleita]

217. Here's a couple of things for you to read.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/marktestimony032404.html
http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm

Now, I too live in an agricultural area and our farm workers are unionized. Everyone makes the same wage, which is $11 an hour these days whether they are white or hispanic. It seems that your problem is that undocumented workers are willing to work for $8 an hour as contrary to the $15 an hour Americans will work for, which kind of proves my point. Americans won't work for $8 an hour, so the immigrants will do the job Americans won't.

Since this post is not about economics but racism, when you scapegoat the $8 an hour guy as the problem instead of the employer who legally can exploit these people and leave workers who refuse to work for that wage unemployed, it's racist pure and simple.

You guys need to unionize instead of whining about people who, like you, are looking for a better life. Of course conservatives believe the market should determine wages, not laws about fair wages, which are being shot to hell as I type this. Raising the minimum wage to what it was intended to be a living wage would go a long way to making employers pay a fair wage, however, don't hold your breath with the Republicans. It's liberals who pass laws that benefit all citizens, not just an upper crust of elites.

[cattleman22]

220. I am confused by some of your points.

""Americans won't work for $8 an hour, so the immigrants will do the job Americans won't.""


Americans would do the job if the immigrants were not there to drive down the wages. It is not that Americans will not do the jobs, it is just that they demand higher wages.




""Of course conservatives believe the market should determine wages, not laws about fair wages, which are being shot to hell as I type this.""


Wouldn't decreasing both legal and illegal immigration go a long way in increasing wages?



""Since this post is not about economics but racism, when you scapegoat the $8 an hour guy as the problem instead of the employer who legally can exploit these people and leave workers who refuse to work for that wage unemployed, it's racist pure and simple.""



I think is innacurate to say this is racism pure and simple. How is it in any way racist to want lower skilled jobs to have better wages?

[Cleita]

233. If you didn't get it,

then I can't explain it. Maybe someone else will come along and frame it in terms you understand.

[helnwhls]

52. you preach hate and then

back-peddle and say you that you were being sarcastic when you get called out.

You ask questions, not to get people's opinions, but to open the door so you can launch into a rant and indoctrinate listeners to your "correct" way of thinking.

Yeah, I'm talking about you.

[Nestea]

58. I disagree with 9 out of 10

I think people can speak whatever language they want in America, but I do think that we need to focus more on English immersion programs, and that the vast majority of classes should be taught in English. English is the most dominant language in America, and if immigrant children want to have a chance at succeeding, they should learn the language.

Just my $.02

[m berst]

75. false assumption

Where are these immigrant children who are not learning English? The process by which this happens and has happened for generations is called mandatory universal public education.

I can assume then that you are all in favor of mandatory universal public education, yes?

[Nestea]

76. Sure, except for troublemakers

And up through 12th grade. We have universal public education already.

[m berst]

81. ok

Then where is the problem you are seeing?

[Nestea]

82. The problem is that some schools offer Spanish instruction

I think it's counterproductive.

I think all classes should be taught in English except for one class wheter the students are taught in English, and after they have learned they are placed into the regular classes. Even if they have to stay in high school 2 or 3 years longer it will be worth it.

[m berst]

95. many schools offer Spanish

There were no immigrants from Spnish speaking countries in my school, but Spanish was taught. What could be wrong with that?

[Nestea]

115. I don't have a problem with the Spanish anguage being taught

I have a problem with literature, american history, science and mathematics being taught in Spanish.

[m berst]

123. what possible difference could the subject matter make?

You clearly do have a problem with something here, and I am just trying to understand what it is.

So it is OK to teach Spanish in school? And it is OK regardless of the ethnic make-up of the student body? It is just certain subjects - like mathematics - that should only be taught in English?

[Nestea]

130. Let me elaborate

Teaching the Spanish language for foreign language credit is okay(and that must be taught in Espanol, obviously), but all other classes(math, bio, etc.), should be taught in English. If you teach those in Spanish, the only kids in it will be people fluent in Spanish(other kids won't be able to understand it). Most people in this country fluent in Spanish are immigrants. It's important for them to learn English, because English is the predominant language here. They should assimilate more into our culture by learning our language.

Ethnic makeup should be irrelevant. Even schools in the southern tip of TX with mostly immigrant students should teach the subjects listed above en Ingles.

Comprendes?

P.S. - As an aside, I'm fluent in Spanish.

[m berst]

135. where is this a problem?

Where are children in America not learning English?

And, again, what difference does the subject matter that is in Spanish make? Are you saying that if math, etc. are taught in Spanish, then the danger is that there will be no English taught in the school? Are there schools where there is no English being taught? If there are, I would be opposed to that.

[AspenRose]

62. You think minorities in a subdivision bring down the property value

** You use terms like "He/she's a credit to their race" or "He/She is articulate"

**You assume that if a minority is on a college scholarship, it's athletic, not academic

** "But what about the CHILDREN?" is your only defense against interracials having a family

**You assume minorities know NOTHING about things typically considered "white" (e.g. classical music...Kathleen Battle, Jessye Norman anyone?)

More:
**If your excuse for not supporting MLK day is because he was a "communist"....

**If you feel there should be a "white heritage month" to compete with "black history month," "hispanic heritage month," "asian heritage month," "native american month," etc. because you feel left out and you should be PROUD of your white heritage, dammit....

**You think native americans don't have a real beef when it comes to complaining about racist stereotypes in sports mascots, and only think they're overreacting and need to get over it

**If you're too embarrassed to invite a person of a different ethnicity to your church because you are more concerned about what other people in your church will say, rather than extending the hand of fellowship

**If you actually use the n-word in front of someone and then say, "Oh, I don't mean YOU...YOU'RE not a 'n.....', I meant THOSE people over there...there are black people and there are 'n.....s'"

[Lone Pawn]

70. I think a few of those are blatant racism

I find it hard to believe anyone could pull the last one and not call themselves racist.

Actually, interesting thing about the stereotype one. I know a native american in Minnesota who claims that most people complaining about the mascots "have to be whites" because he "sees no way anyone could think most of those are offensive." Of course, many native americans actually are offended. Does that make him racist? Ignorant? Or what?

[Nestea]

202. Nope

Only about half of those could be considered racist.

The rest would just be considered ignorant.

[GraphicQueen]

65. My thoughts...

Illegals (not immigrants but illegal aliens) are damn sure taking jobs and making us all pick up the tabs for their social problems and they pay very little tax, if any.

I don't care at all about people's color.

Actually, I live in NM and down close to the border and I can tell you for a fact that both major parties register illegals.

I don't care who lives around me. In fact, we are surrounded by Hispanics and American Indians. Just fine with me.

No children should be allowed in any of our schools if their parents don't pay taxes in that school district. I am sorry but this is where I differ from many people. I am tired of seeing bus loads of children being picked up and dropped off at the Mexican border and their parents don't even live in this country or pay any taxes here and we are footing that bill.

Yes, I do think English should be the official language. Sorry to disappoint all of you but this is also where I differ. That doesn't mean that no other language should not be spoken here, but I don't believe that any government business of any kind should be transacted in anything but English.


Sorry to disappoint you but if you lived down here, you would see that they do seem to have a problem with trash. This is not all Latinos of course. It is mostly the illegals, and you should see how fu**** up the desert is where they trample coming over the border illegally.

I think anyone and everyone should be allowed to marry whoever they want.

I don't care who has children as long as they can take care of them. I am tired of paying for the "anchor babies" here in the border states. That and the hospitals having to take care of illegals are bankrupting our hospitals down here. If you don't live here there is no way you can understand the weight of the matter concerning illegals.

And the purpose of my post is so many of you can see that you are playing the reverse racism game. We have laws in this country. Yeah I know, the Republicans don't think they mean anything to them. But I am tired of criminals being rewarded and they surely are. If they weren't then illegals wouldn't be allowed to get lowered tuition to college, work anywhere in this country and etc. the number of things that illegals do completely seemingly legal. None of it is legal but this country has raised a whole generation of people to believe it is.

[Djinn]

77. you might be a racist

Or atleast need to think a bit more about the REAL issues if you say stuff like:

"Sorry to disappoint you but if you lived down here, you would see that they do seem to have a problem with trash. This is not all Latinos of course. It is mostly the illegals, and you should see how fu**** up the desert is where they trample coming over the border illegally."

the australian version is "if you lived up here (top end) you'd see that they all drink too much and refuse to get jobs"

"I don't care who has children as long as they can take care of them. I am tired of paying for the "anchor babies" here in the border states. That and the hospitals having to take care of illegals are bankrupting our hospitals down here. If you don't live here there is no way you can understand the weight of the matter concerning illegals."

australian version "they let all their kids sniff petrol and "we" have to pay for them all - if you live in melbourne you can't possibly know what it's like to live with the abo's"

[GraphicQueen]

79. Of course...

Since I do know all about the real issues since I live here. I hate to tell you but I am considered a minority. But that is ok. I realize that most people who have no idea or do not live near the border can't understand the actual facts.

I am half Apache. So I know what I am talking about. :o And guess what, I know that many American Indians are sick of the invasion. We didn't like the invasion from the very beginning.

But if it makes you feel extra special to think everyone is racist that doesn't agree perfectly with you then go ahead an believe what you will.

[Kitka]

85. I think you should give people more credit.

I believe more people than you think educate themselves on the facts concerning issues that aren't necessarily primary to their region.

[Djinn]

87. yep you live near the border

so you know how all these mexicans make the place filthy. LOL

[GraphicQueen]

90. I think if you would read properly...

you will see that I said ILLEGALS are the ones who are leaving the trash. Now, an illegal could actually be someone from Iran, Vietnam, Mexico or any other country out there. An illegal is someone who crosses into our country without permission or someone who has allowed his visa or green card to run out. That means that the people who are desecrating our beautiful desert out here are in fact illegals and guess what? They have found prayer rugs and all sorts of things left by illegals crossing into our country. So...don't go and say that I said Mexicans when I didn't. You need to get better if you want to be as good as some of the Republicans are at saying someone said something when they didn't.

[m berst]

100. ILLEGALS are the ones who are leaving the trash

You need to see what the good ole boys do to the beaches in Texas. Or check out the wetlands around New Orleans if you want to see a trashed out environment.

I have to object to the use of the word "illegal" as a noun when describing another human being. No human is "illegal" just by living or being somewhere.

[Djinn]

106. I guess they leave rubbish

with "left proudly by an illegal", apart from the inability to tell who leaves rubbish their is no such thing as an "illegal" person.

[datasuspect]

188. you are saying a version

of the following:

"it's not those good black people, it's those niggers."

[Kitka]

86. "Reverse Racism"

You said "you are playing the reverse racism game". What exactly is "reverse racism"? Racism is racism is racism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

243. Government stuff in English only?

Did you know that if you go live in Japan, there is plenty of official government documentation available in English?

For example, all the official street and highway signs are bilingual, as are signs in train and subway stations. You can get information on what to do during an earthquake in English, Chinese, and Korean, as well as in Japanese.

I guess the Japanese government believes in foreign-born residents actually finding out what they need to know instead of waiting however many years it takes them to learn how to read Japanese.

[Brundle_Fly]

68. think ABC

did something disgusting on monday night football

[sr_pacifica]

83. You use code like

dissing a neighborhood but never saying the real reason is because it has too many 1.African Americans (blacks, to you)or
2. Latinos (Mexicans, to you)

[GraphicQueen]

91. hahahahaha

Have no idea what you are even talking about. I live on a res.

[Djinn]

108. so?

does that mean you can't be racist towards "illegals" - and please don't tell me you're not talking about people from South American countries, not many Bangladeshi's or French folk cross the border in your part of the world.

BTW are you prepared to pay considerably more for your fruit and veg because if you stop the "illegals" you'll cut out 90% of AMerican agriculture.

As for having to pay for their healthcare - I suggest you start a petition to help the Canadian government recoup some of the monies they've spent on healthcare for American citizens, not to mention those US citizens who travel to Mexico to buy THEIR cheap drugs.

This is why I said you're EITHER a racist or need some information on the real issues.

[sr_pacifica]

84. You hate to ride the bus. n/t

[jeanmarc]

92. Iraqis equal terrorists

I see alot of real racism with the death of all the Iraqis. They just figure they're ALL muslim terrorists. It really pisses me off and it was a successful fucking campaign message for Bush.

[Doohickie]

114. I don't know at this point

whether the "insurgents" are terrorists, warlord-led militias, foreign troublemakers or Iraqi patriots. But the mere thought that they could simply be patriots trying to protect homeland and family from an invading army is chilling, considering what we're doing to them.

A couple months ago, I read at an Arabic news site that 98% of Iraqi's see Americans as occupiers and only 2% see us as liberators. God. What are we doing there?

[Cleita]

117. It was never about liberation. That is what is known as

Orwellian speech. I think you answered your own question as to why we are there.

[Doohickie]

118. I know WHY we are there.

But whom are we fighting?

[Cleita]

122. Well, let's go back to the beginning.

GWB said after we went to Afghanistan to get Osama that we had to go to Eye-rack to get Saddam because he was an evil, evil man. We on the other hand thought, wait a minute, this doesn't sound right. But weapons of mass destruction rhetoric later, we invaded Eye-rack because GWB said so. So we killed Uday and Kusay and got Saddam out of his hidey-hole and we are still there.

So essentially, we are a nation who invaded a country we had previously disarmed, a nation who presented no threat to us and actually didn't tolerate Islamic terrorists. We have done everything Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet had done in less time. On edit I forgot Stalin.

OUR NATION IS A MONSTER!

[Doohickie]

96. Damn.

I may be a racist. I support English as official language.

[m berst]

102. different issue maybe, eh?

Maybe the governement is saving money so more can go to the Pentagon or something?

It is funny though, that as European countries move away from xenophobic and rigid concepts of nationalism that include ethnic identification for citizenship and official languages, here in the United States liberals (!!!) are arguing for moving in the opposite direction.

Make a case for it though. I don't see where it is necessarily racism. So far, however, the arguments for making English the official language have been obviously and disturbingly racist in my view.

Making English the official language would not hasten the rate at which immigrants learn English. So what would the point be?

Isn't the "protection of English as our language" idea akin to the "white people's equal rights" and "Christians are persecuted" ideas?

In edit - Just realized, that as on so many other issues, the discussion gets steered off into the most tangential aspect of the issue. There are some fantastic things being said on this thread that could lead to a genuine conversation about race and racism, yet the "English language - immigration" argument gets the play while the other discussions about the more important and telling aspects of racism and the role it plays in American society get overlooked.

Reverse racism, pc speech, English language and immigration are the only aspects of racism that the bigots and right wingers want to talk about. These approaches allow them to make white people out to be the victims, so they can feel justified in their racist attiudes and behavior. Here we are on a liberal board falling into that trap.

[Doohickie]

104. Okay, now I WILL sound racist:

I think most immigrant groups move toward English. They move their families here and know that this is their home. They may retain customs from their home countries and their ability to converse in their native language, but they become American.

There is one notable exception that keeps in close touch with their homeland, and return often. In some cases, they maintain their home there and only come here to work. In several states, the government prints official documents in their native language so they don't have as much as an incentive to learn English.

Mexico is a special case. The Democrat in me wonders: If we go out of our way to accommodate them, shouldn't we do the same for all the other immigrant groups? Other groups are expected to assimilate, but not the Mexicans. It seems kind of unfair relative to the other immigrant groups. Does that uneasy feeling make me a racist?

[m berst]

109. "Them"

There is no "them."

Sorry, have to point it out. I am not saying that you are a racist, but that argument you just presented surely is. Now don't get mad, let's talk about it. Racism permeates our culture. We will never make good progressives, and we will never bring down the fascists if we don't talk about racism and if we don't break out of the right wingers' phrasing and conceptualization of the issue.

[Doohickie]

110. No problem. Let's discuss.

My knee jerk reaction is, in fact, a pretty basic racist viewpoint-- I don't think Mexicans should be coddled... no more than any other immigrant group.

What do you think of that statement? Should they be treated the same as other non-Spanish speaking immigrants? Is there a reason they should be treated differently?

Does it maybe not even matter?

Make your case; I'm listening.

[m berst]

119. thanks

For there to be a "them" there needs to be a way to group people. Since the grouping in our country is done by the dominant group, it is involuntary process for the targeted group. Targeting a group for "nice" treatment by the way is no less racist than targeting them for bad treatment.

People don't stay with "their kind" because they prefer that, they stay in ethnic enclaves because they aren't welcome in the dominant group and have no choice.

Racism is a cycle started and perpetuated by the dominant group - those of European descent. Since the "others" are to one degree or another not welcome into the main group, they are then forced by that to remain in a group. Those people are then disadvantaged in various ways by virtue of them being involuntarily assigned to that group. They are then blamed and targeted for staying in a group, for the actions and habits of the worst individuals in the group, and for the effects that the original marginalization and impoverishment causes in their communities. So they are then seen as "clannish" or "dirty" or "lazy" or "stupid." Of course it is the actions of the dominant group that PUT them into these conditions.

Can you see the context that I am trying to establish here and can we use it as a starting point for understanding the problem?

[fleabert]

121. OT question

Have you read 'Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?', a great book about the permiation of racism in the American culture?

[m berst]

128. no, I have not

I have heard Beverly Daniel Tatum interviewed on the radio, but I have not read the book.

[Doohickie]

133. Nor have I,

But I have noticed that in my son's high school. What's up with that? We've been talking about immigration, but the African-American situation is radically different from voluntary immigrant groups.

Since the school got a black principal (who cracks down on white kids not meeting dress code while letting blacks wear whatever the hell they please), I've noticed this trend increase.

[fleabert]

178. It was used as part of a cultural diversity course in my best friends

graduate level diversity class (psycology program). I read the book and was very surprised at how much I didn't know about racism. Especially surprising for me since I married a 1st generation Mexican American (I am white), and thought I was pretty learned on race issues. I cannot possibly begin to speak well enough about the book here, I highly recommend it. I only had it a few days and raced thru it, I plan on buying it for myself soon, it opened my eyes to what I will need to prepare for when we have kids. (as they will be biracial)

We have a long way to go in this country towards achieving racial, gender, and sexual-preference equality. Longer than I even imagined before reading this.

[Doohickie]

131. Interesting... I would like to address several statements you made

For there to be a "them" there needs to be a way to group people. Since the grouping in our country is done by the dominant group, it is involuntary process for the targeted group. Targeting a group for "nice" treatment by the way is no less racist than targeting them for bad treatment.

There is a "them", plain and simple. There are (okay now I'm not only a racist, but a xenophobe) American citizens (and those who are in the process of becoming such) and there are, for lack of a better word, "outsiders". Outsiders, to me, include visitors, migrant workers, etc. I think this is just the way it is. If I visit Germany, I am an outsider; I don't have all the rights of a German citizen and that's just the way life is.

People don't stay with "their kind" because they prefer that, they stay in ethnic enclaves because they aren't welcome in the dominant group and have no choice.

An interesting assertion, but I really don't think it is that black-and-white. I think that staying with "their kind" is exactly why some people stay in ethnic enclaves. They do have a choice, but don't feel comfortable at first and would rather be around familiar things. I can look at my own family's journey to Americanhood and see that. Immigrant great-grandparents lived in the Polish neighborhoods speaking Polish. Their offspring slowly spread into mixed suburbs and now I am in an area with virtually no Polish presence to speak of. Our family migrated out. But some stayed in the "Old Neighborhood" for generations and were perfectly content to do so; I count many relatives among them.

Racism is a cycle started and perpetuated by the dominant group - those of European descent. Since the "others" are to one degree or another not welcome into the main group, they are then forced by that to remain in a group. Those people are then disadvantaged in various ways by virtue of them being involuntarily assigned to that group. They are then blamed and targeted for staying in a group, for the actions and habits of the worst individuals in the group, and for the effects that the original marginalization and impoverishment causes in their communities. So they are then seen as "clannish" or "dirty" or "lazy" or "stupid." Of course it is the actions of the dominant group that PUT them into these conditions.

Ehhhh.... kind of. When new immigrant groups show up in significant numbers, I think that kind of happens. There the Irish, then the Poles and Italians, then... etc. until we get to today. Today we have the immigrants with established status- Eastern Europeans, Asians, Hispanics, etc., with which most assimilated Americans have some level of comfort. Then there is the latest group... which is much more Islamic that previous groups. When I lived in Detroit, this was a major wave of new immigration. At the time, I figured they would assimilate much like past groups. But I think this particular group is feared for their religion much as Catholic immigrants were when they first started to arrive. I think it will take much longer for Islamic immigrants to be assimilated, accepted, and considered to be essentially American. However, I think it will happen eventually.

Can you see the context that I am trying to establish here and can we use it as a starting point for understanding the problem?

Sadly, no, I'm not getting it. The original jumping off point, at least from my perspective, is whether immigration from Mexico warrants different treatment compared to immigration from, say, Europe or Asia. Are you going to get back to the Mexico thing soon?

[m berst]

138. see if this helps

Did you see the post I made above? (We are going to make the Motown connection here :-) )

it happens in Detroit....

They come over by the thousands. They cross by the bridge or the tunnel. They get jobs. They live in little communities of people just like them! They get in on some ruse, like a work permit, or they just sneak across. Then they stay and they go for years without ever being detected.

Illegal aliens!!!

In Detroit, we call them "Canadians" and for some reaon no one ever mentions them when they get lathered up about immigration.

OK, now clearly Canadian "illegals" have a much easier time of it, yes?

You said:

"There are (okay now I'm not only a racist, but a xenophobe) American citizens (and those who are in the process of becoming such) and there are, for lack of a better word, outsiders. Outsiders, to me, include visitors, migrant workers, etc. I think this is just the way it is."

The problem with that, is that in my experience the migrant workers are treated the same way whether they are citizens or not. So, naturally, one begins to wonder if there is not some other factor involved. Also, it is undeniably true from my observation that they are not welcome in the white schools, churches and stores. So much so in the case of the church, that I made a formal complaint, which was subsequently found to be with merit and which led to affrimative action to overcome the problem.

How can we possibly escape the conclusion that there is racism involved in this?

[Doohickie]

148. Darn you for presenting a convincing case

And well done!

Let me think about that some....

Getting back to my original post on this thread, though... the Canadians are, for the most part, indistinguishable racially from Americans (except for their preference for gravy on their fries). But they share (at least in Ontario) the English language. They, in essence, instantly assimilate.

Mexico speaks a different language and I think the fact that America allows them to get away with not speaking English (i.e., bilingual education for years and years, bilingual signs, etc.) contributes to the descrimination against them. If they only learned English to a greater extent, they would not be held out as "separate" or "them" as much.

[m berst]

156. thanks

I knew a couple of old Detroiters could get on the same page eventually.

I appreciate you being so open minded and listening. I don't have all the answers, but I do know that the Republicans are trying to keep us from asking the questions.

I don't have much direct experience in the Southwest, but I know that the migrants are desperate to assimilate and there is no reluctance to learn English or embrace the dominant culture. There are, however, many barriers. I work in agriculture and I could tell you some horror stories. We have these federal dragnets go on and the workers are so terrorized that they run for their lives. I have seen farmers standing down feds with rifles demanding warrants and identification, and asking the feds "how do you know that I am not "illegal" except that I am white?" That is racism in action when people are singled out because of their skin color.

I have seen workers born and raised here rounded up for no reason, whisked away to detention somewhere - no phone call, no lawyer, no nothing. So when people talk about the "illegal alien" problem, I see it as code language for Gestapo tactics and the erosion of our Constitution. The feds, and the local police, and the stores, etc, never single people out because they are "illegal aliens" they single them out for harrassment and worse because of their skin color. How any of us can be liberals and go along pretending that this is not what the whole thing is about is a mystery to me.

[cattleman22]

187. What the whole thing is about

""How any of us can be liberals and go along pretending that this is not what the whole thing is about is a mystery to me.""


I wish you would alter your word choice slightly. I agree that racism in part is what this is about. But I deny that it is the only thing. I find your choice of words is effective at limiting discussion about this important topic.

[m berst]

211. I'll answer

What is the problem with my view and how does it prevent you from presenting yours?

Please, if you would, descibe to me your concept of what it means to be a liberal? How do you see issues of race and class? What are the fundamental underlying prinicples of liberalism. Perhaps you are not a liberal. That is fine, I have no problem with that, but it would cause a lot of misunderstanding in any discussion if we thought that we were two Democrats talking with each other yet we didn't share any basic liberal positions or values.

I am speaking from an extremely biased point of view - that of a liberal, and you may be having a problem with that bias. I am speaking from my experience in the civil rights movement. What is your view of the significance of the civil rights movement, and how do you feel the politcal leesons from that struggle apply to the isues today?

[cattleman22]

214. My perceptions

I think we are talking past each other. There is really only one point I was trying to get across. That is that I think there are non racist reasons to want to limit illegal immigration.

However, I have been branded a racist because I want to limit illegal immigration and because I have used the word illegal to describe a person who breaks the law.

[m berst]

215. trying again

Liberals don't take positions on issues in a vacuum. That is how Republicans approach the issues - well, modern so-called Republicans; they are reactionaries, really, not conservatives.

It us not possible to take a sensible stand on any issue as a liberal without placing it in the context of a liberal world view. So I am asking you how your position on this issue fits into your liberal world view, and also for you to describe your liberal world view.

I am not interetsted in debating back and forth the pros and cons of a simplistic one-dimensional issue. If we can't talk about the meaning if the issue in a larger context that takes into account the politcal realities and that can be judged on its impact on the great moral causes of liberalism, then we are not discussing it from a shared perspective. That is OK, but I do want to know which we are doing. Are we discusssing, as two liberals, how best to advance the liberal vision, or are we arguing about liberalism itself here?

[cattleman22]

218. How does limiting immigration fit in with a liberal point of view?

Is that what you are asking?

Limiting immigration decreases the supply of labor, driving up wages. I know that many will throw out the supposed fact that immigrants take jobs that americans would not take. This is innacurate. Immigrants tend to accept lower pay for jobs that americans demand higher pay to perform. Higher wages for lower skilled jobs would decrease the number of people and children in poverty in the US.


Limiting immigration would help to improve working conditions. Many illegal immigrants will not complain about poor working conditions because of fear of deportation. If US citizen had that job, the citizen would be far more willing to complain to the government. This should force business owners to improve their working conditions.

Limiting immigration would benefit the economy in many poor areas. Many immigrants send a large portion of their pay back to their home country. This reduces the amount of money circulating in the economy of poor areas in the US, especially rural areas. This hurts small businesses which provide most of the jobs in the US.

[m berst]

219. fantastic, thanks

Much clearer now. Your point is well taken, and has much merit. I would, however, point out that it is a free market approach to issues of labor, and is not in line with liberalism. That's OK, but we will have a fundamental disagreement that needs to be taken into consideration if we are going to make any sense out of things here.

I don't agree with the idea that labor is a commodity that should be allowed to be bought and sold on the open market place and have its value established by market forces.

I respect your position, and it has an illustrous history. It is the philosophy espoused by generations of Republicans from the 20's on. It is legitimate, and it has a place in the discussion. I am opposing it because I am a liberal, however, and have a world view that is incompatible with this idea, not because you are "wrong." See what I mean?

[cattleman22]

227. Liberalism is not free market based?

Let me start off by saying thank you for not calling me a racist for wanting to limit immigration, as that is not my motivation at all.

Now, how is liberalism not based on the free market? My perception of economic liberalism is that it is based on a desire to temper the extremes of the free market.


""I don't agree with the idea that labor is a commodity that should be allowed to be bought and sold on the open market place and have its value established by market forces.""



My perception of this is based on my experiences. From a small business standpoint, a wage is based on the minimum level required to hire a person of adequate skill and character. I personally do not see how that is incompatable with liberalism.

[m berst]

252. you are a small business owner?

As one myself, there is of course a way in which we need to look at labor as just another factor in the mix if we are going to rationally run a business and stay alive.

It is an interesting conundrum. What you said isn't necessarily incompatible with liberalism, but the idea that labor is nothing but an open market commodity is, don't you think?

It is a tough world right now for liberal busines owners, just as it is for liberal Christians. We are swimming against a tidal wave of anything goes capitalism and theocratic politicized Christianity.

[Doohickie]

194. "I know that the migrants are desperate to assimilate and there is no

...reluctance to learn English or embrace the dominant culture."

No, not really. Here, there are many who don't really have an interest in assimilating. A friend of mine, a Mexican-American who is a bilingual teacher, is constantly frustrated by the lack of parental support with respect to getting the kids to speak English. I suspect in northern areas, there is a different mindset; there's less of a Spanish-speaking infrastructure and to function at all, one has to learn English. Near my house there is a full-sized shopping mall where virtually all the owners of stores are Spanish-speaking.

And with respect to your tales of harrassment and worse- I don't doubt that that happens. I heard an interesting piece on NPR yesterday about alien detainees. Any non-citizen who is found to have ever committed any kind of infraction against the law can be detained and eventually deported. Even if they've married an American, even if they have a green card and are close to getting their citizenship.

Yet, there are laws on the books concerning immigration. Are we to throw all those laws out and let everybody in? Is there any reasonable justification for regulating immigration?

As far as racism with respect to going after workers that are obviously hispanic: I have to admit I am conflicted with respect to the concept of "racial profiling". I mean, if I were doing security at an airport, I think it is, in fact, more likely that an arabic-looking man is more likely to have a bomb than a blonde-haired, blue-eyed person. A hispanic person working as a farm worker is more likely to be an illegal immigrant than, say, a Chinese shopkeeper. That does not give carte blanche to round up all hispanics, but if you're looking for illegal aliens, you're more likely to be successful if you go out to the farms (or the kitchen in a restaurant or stuff like that).

In short, I think that just because harsh tactics are used, they are not necessarily illegal or unwarranted. That being said, there is undoubtedly a lot of abuse carried out in the name of protecting us from illegal aliens.

I feel kind of exposed putting all this out there; I'm sure some of it sounds terrible. However, if you have reasonable discussion regarding why you think my ideas are wrong I am willing to listen.

By the way, if you can, you may want to listen to NPR All Things Considered this afternoon; they are supposed to have Part 2 of the report I mentioned earlier.

[m berst]

258. thanks doohickie

We had neighborhoods in Detroit that had some persistence as well, and I imagine that is what you see where you are. It depends on how many people are speaking the same language, and the relative ease of assimilation. The darker the skin, the slower the assimilation, and that can hardly be a coincidence.

Are there elementary school children of immigrants somewhere in the country who are not learning English? If not, then nothing has changed from the past and there is no problem here that is not self-correcting. If there is no problem, then I become suspicious of solutions. When the "problem" mysteriously is only seen by people when the community is darker skinned, I become suspicious.

We have a community in Detroit that has been almost exclusively Polish speaking for decades and decades, every bit as much as the Hispanic communites I hear people lamenting, yet there was never a "English language only" movement caused by that ethnic enclave.

[cattleman22]

186. RE: "migrant workers are treated the same way"

I disagree. Migrant workers are treated differently only when comparing undocumented to documented(citizen or not citizen). Not all migrant workers are non white. My family used to raise sheep. Most of the migrant sheep shearers were white. I certainly did not notice any different treatment between them and other migrant workers that have been hired by my parents.

[m berst]

260. how can you?

How can you disagree with my observations?

So, you are saying that you don't believe that Hispanic migrant workers are ever discriminated against or mistreated as a result of ethnicity?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

244. Well, in Portland, the transit system printed up info

in Russian, Spanish, Vietnamese, Romanian, Korean, Chinese, and Japanese.

The Kaiser clinic offered a similar array of languages.

In Minneapolis-St. Paul, it's not uncommon to find information in Somali and Hmong.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

184. Your additions to the post NAIL IT

They attack what they perceive to be the most fragile point in our point of view.

This, of course, is a good indication that there IS a strategy going on against our point of view. That alone should be a source of "hmmmmmmm".

[m berst]

261. well, see there you go

You Commie Pinko Dirtbags are always making trouble. :-)

[cattleman22]

185. Direction of the thread

""In edit - Just realized, that as on so many other issues, the discussion gets steered off into the most tangential aspect of the issue. There are some fantastic things being said on this thread that could lead to a genuine conversation about race and racism, yet the "English language - immigration" argument gets the play while the other discussions about the more important and telling aspects of racism and the role it plays in American society get overlooked.""


I think the thread went in the direction it did because of the tone of the very first post. I think there are some legitimate reasons why illegal immigration should be reduced and some legitimate reasons why English should be the state language. Yet that first post labeled everyone who wants those things as racists.

I believe the right labels liberals as race baiters because of this. When you tell a person that the only reason anyone would ever want to limit illegal immigration is if they are a racist, you have to expect that person to get defensive.

[GraphicQueen]

196. I couldn't agree

more with you. You are exactly right and this is exactly what the Republicans use against us. It matters not that they are racist themselves but the fact that they can prove that so many in the Democratic party are willing to call someone a racist because they don't agree with their version of liberalism. That is one of the main things that is hurting the Democrats and then you look at this forum and we see all kinds of race-baiting threads started. I replied to you because you actually made some sense but I will not reply to anymore race baiting that a few in here seem to want to do. The fact that they are even thinking about the racism issue shows me that they are probably more racist than they want to admit. So let them go ahead try and make other believe they aren't racist when all they have done is divide the party even more. Their kind is one of the things that is hurting this party and they don't care.

[Columbia]

113. If you are human

You are racist.

[Kire]

125. If you're breathing...

you're a racist.

[bacchant]

132. Bullshit, my life's goal is to have an opportunity to love a woman from

every country on the planet.

[Lone Pawn]

137. You're taking nationality into account? Racist.

[bacchant]

141. Heh, 'by country' seems like the easiest way to guarantee I cover every

ethnicity. I love everyone...




... Especially when I'm drunk...




... Like now...

[Columbia]

139. Your desired sexual conquests have not nothing to do with your prejudices

[bacchant]

142. Says you! n/t

[Columbia]

151. Of course, who else would be typing?

;-)

[Hog lover]

140. If you assume certain neighborhoods are unsafe

merely because some minority racial or ethnic group lives there.

(kind of a corollary to original number 4)

[Doohickie]

152. Well then my neighborhood must be a war zone

Cuz we are pretty jumbled, racially.

[hfojvt]

144. would you accept degrees of racism?

Perhaps a score on that list? Or is a person who believes one of the things on that list just as racist as a person who believes all ten? What about the intensity of the beliefs? As you said, we all have our hidden prejudices. I am not sure that every imperfection needs to brand a person with a scarlet R.
Also, as far as #1 goes, the immigrants could be from Austria, like Arnold, and it seems to me like he did take a job away from Pete Wilson.

[proudbluestater]

145. Proud to say, not a racist.

Enjoyed reading your list, though. I live in a white suburb. But in my neighborhood I'm proud to say the population is mixed. My kids have many friends and I can tell by their names they are not all born in America, nor are they all African Americans.

When I hear the name of a new friend, I can't help but thinking to myself, "HOORAY! She has a friend named Nikata! She has twin friends named Farrah and Mishal! She has a friend named Avlock!"

My beautiful girl has friends from India, Patkistan, and also African American friends.

I grew up in a city with a population that is 20% black. I would advise ANY parent to raise your child in an atmosphere similar to this. Ok, don't limit it to 20% black, that's not what I mean, I mean AT LEAST 20% black; the higher the number the better.

White people who insulate their children and send them to all white schools (private, parochial, it doesn't matter) do their kids a great disservice. The world is not 100% white. Learn to get along with others YOUNG and it will eliminate many of the misunderstandings we have between the races/ethnicities.

[m berst]

149. is it a proper source of pride?

I find that long before one could call themselves free of racism, one would have to thoroughly understand it. From that understanding comes shame and sadness.

The government you pay taxes to, and the lifestyle that American suburbia affords us, is unfortunately based on, and nurtured and supported by domestic and foreign policies that are firmly rooted in racism. This racism is not a matter of the ansence of feel-good political correctness or suburban slumber party diversity, but has very real consequences of death and suffering for those of color around the world.

I am not proud of that. I am horrified, and I can see no way to separate this suffering and inhumanity from racism.

[flaminbats]

160. Illegal immigration...if you don't approve, you are a NAZI!!

Let people cross our borders without papers, a green card, or even a passport. To do otherwise makes you a freeper, a Republican, a racist who consider illegals to be nothing more than disposable moneymaking tools. Legal immigration is a crime, a sin against illegal immigrants who sneak across our borders. All who come into our country legally, showing the patience and determination to legally become citizens are nothing more than a mockery of those who disobey the laws of all nations.

Sorry..but IMHO illegal immigration does not equal liberty and justice for all. Why is illegal immigration considered a form of foreign aid to Mexico, when this only lowers standards for both our countries? If we wish to provide aid there are better ways.


Step 1-stop illegal immigration. Immigration exists for the benefit of our country, not just for benefits our country has to offer.

Step 2-start a Marshall plan for Mexico and central America. Help these nations to cleanup the water supply, build a modern infrastructure, and provide a basic education to all citizens.

Step 3-in return for our assistance..these nations and the U.S.A. must adopt democratic reforms requiring all citizens to vote, and allowing international observers to count the votes. After these reforms have been made these nations will develop an industrial base, and wages will increase in Mexico and the U.S..


An illegal immigrant is one who breaks the laws of his nation or ours out of selfish indulgence. Racism is a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce inherent superiority with a single race. Bigotry occurs when one is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion. I am not racist, I do not believe in a "nationalized English language", I desire only the best for all immigrants, but admit to sometimes being a bigot.

[m berst]

163. didn't see that

I didn't see anyone here advocating for open borders. I objected to calling any human being an "illegal" or an "alien" but that is a different subject. You are mischaracterizing the arguments of those with whom you disagree to make them easier to refute. Then you deride and mock, all the time portraying yourself as the misunderstood and mistreated one.

"Selfish indulgence" you say, and they are breaking the law, you say.

You have an odd world view for an American and for a liberal. My experience with immigrants has been that they are motivated by the same thing that all of our ancestors were, and have a better grasp of the principles and ideals of our country than most native born Americans do.

Talk to some immigration attorneys about the difficulties in dealing with the INS before you get your opinions too set in stoneabout who is and who isn't breaking the law.

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.

From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she with silent lips.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

- Emma Lazarus

[flaminbats]

173. "Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus..

we are slaves of the laws in order that we may be able to be free." said Cicero

My objection is to a new class citizens..those who cannot vote, are not bound by our labor laws or to pay taxes, people who don't have the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury, or do not have Green Cards. Once this standard falls for these new Americans, why will it be different for the rest of us?

We have immigrants, residents with Green Cards, and those who don't fit into either category. As Emma Lazarus wrote "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." It didn't say "sell me your tired, steal and profit from your poor, torture those huddled masses yearning to breath free!"

[m berst]

174. I get it

Thanks. I worry about falling into the Republican habit of always blaming the little guy for every social ill.

Industry wants cheap labor. Politicians look the other way. The INS is a joke. Somewhere in the mix, small farmers are desperate for labor and people south of the border are desperate for work. Big mess, and I don't like to see the itinerant laborer be the one taking all of the abuse.

[cattleman22]

189. I disagree, my perception was that posters advocating for limitless

immigration. The way I read some of the posts was that anyone who thought immigration should be illegal was a racist.

[m berst]

223. that's OK

We are looking at things from a different point of view. It isn't so much that we disagree about the details, as it is that we are looking from dramatically different perspectives.

From the liberal perspective, racism is intitutional, not personal. From the liberal perspective the dignity of man, the value of the labor, the nobility of the worker, the rights of the common man, and the brotherhood of all men across borders, all come first and only then do we tackle specific policy areas and develop positions.

[cattleman22]

229. In Liberalism, racism is not at a personal level?

I am confused. How is that racism does not start at the personal level and then get institutionalized?

[m berst]

254. it is a modern idea that racism is personal

Slavery was not personal, it was institutional. Most slave owners liked their slaves.

[shockra]

175. Keep in mind who writes the laws when you say they're "illegal."

White people came to this country, without an invitation, and felt free to (legally?)kill the Indians. People of color can be brought over on ships by force (legally?) when whites want generations worth of free labor, but now people of color can't come here without permission?

The rules/laws always change according to what's most beneficial and convenient for whites, at any particular time.

[flaminbats]

177. Rain of gold now reduced to chains of steel?

"Paradise was now within their reach when the devil came out of hiding, dancing with his huge serpent's head, tempting them down into his depths." from Rain of Gold..by Victor Villasenor


"People of color can be brought over on ships by force (legally?) when whites want generations worth of free labor, but now people of color can't come here without permission?"

Why should it be any different for those who live in the U.S...should we be allowed to freely move abroad to run a business, keep company workers under armed guard, and be treated as citizens based only on class?

[UdoKier]

172. I guess I may be a racist.

1. You think immigrants to this country are taking jobs that belong to Americans.

I don't just think so. It's a fact, they will work for less. I don't blame them, though, I blame their employers.

2. You think that people of color should go back to where they came from.

Only the Indians really have a right to be here.

3. You think the opposition party is registering illegals to vote.

The repugs? Or are you assuming the reader is a repug? Anyway, I don't think that's prevalent with either party.

4. You think minorities shouldn’t move into your neighborhood because they bring crime with them.

My neighborhood is already all minorities. I don't want thuggish hooligans of any color in my neighborhood, though.

5. You think that foreigner’s children shouldn’t be allowed to attend public schools.

Well, no. If they are known to be illegal, they need to be deported.

6. You think English should be the only language spoken.

In public schools (aside from foreign language classes) yes. I believe in immersion. But in your home, on the street, speak whatever you like.

7. You think immigrants from Latin America are the people littering public places like parks and beaches with dirty diapers. (Bizarre but someone actually said this to me.)

Well, consciousness about litter IS different in latin American countries, but it is not just latin Americans doing it. "regular" Americans have gotten MUCH worse over the last decade or so, too.

8. You think they should have equal but separate rights, but you draw the line at marriage.

I guess I disagree with it, but I don't understand the statement.

9. Or, you believe interracial marriage is fine as long as they don’t plan on having children.

I'm in an interracial marriage myself, with 2 kids, so...

10. Your race is the most intelligent and therefore should lead.

LOL! I am the same race as BUSH! LMFAO!

[sadiesworld]

190. STOP THE SANITY!

:D

[gordianot]

228. Since my Great Great Grandmother was Native American.

She never had a reservation card. Does that mean I have a right to be here?

[unfrigginreal]

191. I agree with you on all except #1

I think a case can be made to show this to be true. It doesn't make me or anyone else a racist to think that.

[Brand New Tico]

192. If you're Republican, you ARE racist

nt

[MsTryska]

197. Personally i do think English should be our official

language.


I don't have a problem with multi-ligual signage, but i don't think it's too much to expect that children learn english when they get to school at the very least.


and that one knows english in order to work here.


It reminds me of a lady i used to work with. she along with her son and daughter-in-law were part of the cleaning crew at a gym i used to work in.


she didn't speak a lick of english, and carried on whole conversations in spanish, with various coworkers. who really were jsut trying to get a mess cleand up or garbage bags in the restroom or whatever.

it was tough when there was no one on staff who spoke fluent spanish. she was a sweet lady tho. i just wish i knew what she was syaing to me, half the time.


btw - i'm an immigrant from a multi-lingual family, but my folks ensured that we spoke english, because that would help when we came to the new world.

[theboss]

198. I may be a racist

Though it's also possible I'm just a misanthrope.

1. I think #1 is a loaded question. No job "belongs" to anyone. But I don't necessarily agree with the "Cheap Labor" Republicans (like Bush) who oppose immigration reform, because immigration keeps employment costs down.

2. Does anyone besides three Klansmen in Indiana still think this?

3. I'm sure there is some of this going on. I don't think voting shenanigans are limited to one party or the other. Then again, I admire the Daley family.

4. I think this is a loaded question too. Having witnessed my parents once crime-free, middle-class neighborhood become the type of place where their car was stolen from their locked garage, I am concerned not about minorities (the guy who stole it was white) but about government-subsidised housing driving down the standard of living. It's an old neighborhood in the rust belt. As the older residents, well, die, the houses are not sold, then bought by the government, and turned into HUD housing. And then property values decline further. It's a case study of how to turn a neighborhood into a ghetto.

5. Well, that's just stupid. Who thinks that?

6. Only language spoken? No, that would mean that my family couldn't have spoken Italian at home. However, I do think it should be the "official" lanaguage - spoken in schools, required for certain jobs, etc.

7. Actually, the dirtiest public place I've ever seen in my life was Brighton Beach last 4th of July. Russians are not tidy people.

8. Is this still an issue? I'm 30 and live in a metro area. Everyone marries (and eventually divorces) everyone.

9. Who has said that? I have honestly never heard this sentiment spoken.

10. I'm pretty dumb myself.

[Cleita]

200. Most people harbor racist thoughts among

the above statements and they aren't even aware that it is a racist sentiment. Just a few things to point out on your statements. You mention some of my statements are loaded, but I can assure you that people have said these things to me over the past five years. I didn't pull them out of a hat. My comments are in italics.


2. Does anyone besides three Klansmen in Indiana still think this?

Yes. Someone said it to me recently about an Arab couple who had just left a store I was in. The wife was veiled.

3. I'm sure there is some of this going on. I don't think voting shenanigans are limited to one party or the other. Then again, I admire the Daley family.

Recently a woman who is a member of my Democratic club and usually pretty liberal made the claim that the Republicans were registering illegal aliens to vote against the Democrats.

4. I think this is a loaded question too. Having witnessed my parents once crime-free, middle-class neighborhood become the type of place where their car was stolen from their locked garage, I am concerned not about minorities (the guy who stole it was white) but about government-subsidised housing driving down the standard of living. It's an old neighborhood in the rust belt. As the older residents, well, die, the houses are not sold, then bought by the government, and turned into HUD housing. And then property values decline further. It's a case study of how to turn a neighborhood into a ghetto.

Having lived at one time or the other in a mixed neighborhood because the rent was cheaper, I can assure you that 98% of the residents are law-abiding and want the same things we do, a job and a future for their kids. What happens is that there is less police protection in poor neighborhoods so that criminals thrive. Also, poor people can't afford the private security companies that affluent neighborhoods can.

5. Well, that's just stupid. Who thinks that?

Most racist white people in my state. They are the same ones who think illegal aliens shouldn't have driver's licenses, one of them our Governor, who entered our country as an illegal himself. I think to deny children school regardless of their parent's status, especially since many of them are born here, is deliberately creating an underclass of people who can't break out of it without an education.

7. Actually, the dirtiest public place I've ever seen in my life was Brighton Beach last 4th of July. Russians are not tidy people.

Well, since you didn't have any Mexicans to blame you blamed Russians, which is the same thing. In my experience, working in campgrounds in the Northwest, where there are mostly white second and third generation Americans who use them, they litter as badly as anyone else. So you see everyone litters. Accusing one group over another is scapegoating.

The point of this post is to make people think about where they may have residual racism residing.

[theboss]

224. In response....

As to #5, there is a big difference in my view between immigrants and "illegal immigrants." You didn't frame the question that way.

And on #7, I was being ironic. Well, a little ironic. It was a dirty fucking place. And apparently there is no need to wear real swimwear to the beach any longer.

[Cleita]

232. I didn't frame number 5 between illegal and legal because

I consider it an artificial and racist designation of immigrants who come from south of the border. Those who enter from north of the border without proper documentation are hardly given a thought. No one cares if they take jobs from Americans because they are white.

It's sort of like calling babies legitimate and illigitimate. It's only a sexist way of viewing women who are married and unmarried. They babies shouldn't have those labels on them.

People just aren't illigitimate because some racist conservative makes a law stating that they are too brown to be here.

[theboss]

255. Aren't you being a little pompous in stating these opinions as fact

I'm sorry, but there is a difference between illegals and immigrants who arrive here legally. A country has a right to control its borders. And I don't like the assertation that just because I think we have the right to control the flow of immigration to this country means that I am racist.

That is unbelievably presumptuous.

I think anyone who wants to move to this country should have that opportunity. But they need to respect our laws. And that includes everything, including entry.

[genieroze]

203. I guess I am then

because of # 1 and #3 is pretty much proven. # 6 too. When you go to any other country they want you to speak their language or at least learn enough of it to survive.

[ComerPerro]

216. so I take it that

your profession involves underpaid manual labor such as janatorial work, landscaping, food service, and minimum wage factory work. Because, if immigrants are stealing a job that should rightfully be yours, that must be what you do.

And, as for number 6... Canada has two languages. Most countries in Europe have several languages, seeing as they are all so close together. Most immigrants learn english quite well, at least well enough to survive, and I don't fault the ones that have trouble with english. Maybe they are still learning.

If I moved to Spain or France or Germany, I would hope that the locals are patient with me as I am learning the language.

[genieroze]

263. right and wrong

1.My teenagers can't get jobs because they are taken by Mexicans. If outsourcing keeps on happening the only jobs left will be in the service industry. Who would you hire? I bet the illegal working for 2 bucks under the table.
2 Want to move to Canada better learn French, go to their immigration websites. They at least want a effort.
Learning? Why should they? How does the joke go? You are in America, "learn to speak Spanish"
Every country has a national language, it doesn't mean you can't help immigrants learn english or ease their transition into it. This includes all immigrants not just Spanish speaking ones.

[NewJeffCT]

205. if you've ever thought, "she's pretty, for a black girl"

those types of things really annoy me... "oh, he's a good speaker for a black guy" or "he's a good worker for a Puerto Rican" or "she's a good driver for an Asian"

I remember, the year after a graduated from high school, a black girl won the next year's senior class award for "best physique" and some guy said to me, "she has a nice body for a black girl," and my snap response was, "she must have had a nice body for any girl if she won that award being one of two black girls in the class..."

[theboss]

221. I'm a good dancer for a white guy....

Just sayin'....

[gordianot]

222. You take bed sheets to your tailor.

[dpt223]

230. #4

I'm not white, but I grew up in an all white neighborhood and hated every minute of it.

Am I racist?

[IronLionZion]

236. a lot of DUers think some of those things

myself included.

1, 3, and 6, for me

sorry but it's true...and I'm the dark brown son of immigrants! I'm going to take your job and then I don't want anyone to come take it from me. :P You'd be surprised how many Dems agree with 1, 3, and 6.

[Cleita]

250. That's why I put them up.

A lot of people don't recognize the racism in those views.

[NoodleBoy]

240. If you start any sentence with the word, "I'm not a racist, but..."

[Taxloss]

256. LOL! Agreed! Or if you use the word "racialist".

NoodleBoy, you're British, right?

[Chicago Democrat]

266. BooyaKasha! Did you see Ali G's interview with Andy Rooney?!!!

Andy Rooney is a racialist! and that interview proved it...


Andy Rooney is a racialist!! HEHHEHEHHHEE

[Taxloss]

242. This entire discussion is stupid.

Pardon my insult, but this just demonstrates how the left have lost control of the race argument to right-wing talking points.

Race is a concept that was invented to try and understand the world (hundreds of years ago, in answer to the primitive question "why are those people different?") and has been perverted into a right-wing (and occasionally left-wing) ideology designed to gain and retain power.

There is no such thing as race. We are all mongrels and freaks. "Races" interbreed constantly - that's how they survive, change and evolve. The notion of "pure race" is a logical non-starter. It's all a bunch of crap.

Signed, a Brit (that is, Celt-Jute-Saxon-Anglo-Jew-Norman-French-German mischling) who is marrying and intends to have many children with another Brit (Hong Kong Chinese-heritage Cantonese sweetie with an equally complicated heritage).

[Cleita]

245. I agree with your assessment of what race is.

Our problem is that we have one of the most dangerous administrations in our history running this government because they were able to tap into the inherent racism of the American people to obfuscate their real intentions. Hitler did the same thing scapegoating Jews and other groups that weren't German-like. Trying to get Americans to realize their inner prejudices is a step towards getting these people out of our government.

[Taxloss]

247. What if some Americans are fully aware of their inner ...

... prejudices and don't care?

[Cleita]

248. We would call those Americans fascists, however, many

Americans have bought into the propaganda spread about terrorists, immigrants, et al. and aren't even aware of their racism and that's because so many of them have been programmed that way from childhood.

I actually tapped into this propaganda programming in the northwest. Not about race this time, but the art of scapegoating. The loggers were led by the lumber companys to believe that the reason they lost their mill jobs was because of the environmentalists. The truth was that the raw logs were being shipped to Asia to be milled and then shipped back to the USA for use as building materials.

To this day you will find mountain forest people who believe the only good environmentalist is a dead one. Incidentally, the environmentalists want to stop the rape of our forests through clear cutting, but this never stopped and has even accelerated under the healthy forests initiative of the Bush administration.

People who have lost their jobs and had their hours increased and wages lowered are made to look upon the immigrant as the reason. It puts the blame on a group of people who can't control economic dynamics, when the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the corporations and the fascists running our country now.

[HuskerDem]

259. You refer to indigenous Americans as "Indians"

And believe that white people "discovered" America.

[Cleita]

269. Yeah, well south of the border Native Americans refer to

themselves as "indios" so go figure. It's common usage and you know it. Europeans settled the New World over ten thousand years later after the first humans arrived and made a huge impact in turning this world topsy turvy so I'm sorry if you don't like the word, but this is what I was taught in school fifty years ago so maybe my terminology isn't as PC as you like it but, since this is a dicussion board and not a dictionary, I think you can loosen up a bit.

[Chicago Democrat]

265. Your obsessed with illegal aliens like Lou Dobbs... I say: let 'em come!!

I think we should have open borders combined with better control. Make em legal and give them driver's licenses!

Have em pay taxes! Let em come.... Bring the whole family... the US is still very open and has plenty of room.... Let em come!

[Cleita]

268. Most of them pay taxes.

Many employers ( I know because I used to do payroll) will accept a phony SS card and green card, to keep a semblance of legality by hiring illegals. On the other hand it puts them into the system, which means that FIT and FICA will be deducted from their checks. Of course they will never derive benefits from the FICA until they become legal and only from that time on.

I actually agree with Pat Buchanan for once. He says that jobs should pay a living wage. That way Americans will work at the jobs illegals take now. So the minimum wage needs to be moved up to $12 an hour. Treating wages as subject to market forces is what lowers the wages, not the poor gob who is desparate for work and willing to work for less.

I also think we need to start leaning on the countries on our borders to start instituting living wage laws too. It's time their elites started paying for their privileges.

[mastershake]

267. According to that list I may be a racist...

Well and some other comments. Someone mentioned you may be racist if you think rap music isn't music. I'm a scratch dj and way in the hip hop scene... but I don't like country music... maybe i'm racist.

As far as thinking the oppositition party is registering illegals to vote, I don't know if I believe it.. but I wouldn't doubt if the republican party did it. The democratic party probably would too. Both parties are controlled by criminals (though I think the republican party is controlled by more).

I don't think immigrants are taking away jobs from this country, in fact I have no problem with immigrants. ILLEGAL immigrants on the other hand should have no rights and unless they have reasonable circumstances they should be deported.

English is the US language. It should be the only language spoken. I don't believe stores should offer customer support or anything else in another language. I think hospitals and police stations and the like should have people on hand at all times that speak several different languages. Other then that.. english is what the majority speak and if you want to LIVE here you should speak it. I plan on spending some time in Hong Kong in a couple years, and I will not go with out having the ability to speak Mandarin well enough that I could get around. It's more polite to the country you are visiting and especially if you plan to make a future there.

So... I guess I need to let my friends from many different cultures know I may in fact be a racist...

[Cleita]

270. Fabulous that you admit it. We all have misconceptions that

that are racist in nature. That was the purpose of this post for people to identify their racism and for others to put up racist ideas that they have run across that I missed. The more we start to identify this and acknowledge it, the less power the extreme right wing will have over our lives. Nazi Germany's rise to power was through racism and our right wing is doing the same thing. We have to fight every racist idea that they try to instill by identifying it and discrediting it.

[mastershake]

272. actually...

It was sarcasm.

racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others

I think we all judge people by different things sometimes even if we don't mean too... and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't made a racist comment of some sort. But that doesn't mean when they said it they had true feelings of being a superior race or discriminating against that person... most likely the person was just mad and wanted to say what was most harsh...

You can't fight racist ideas in the sense that the conservatives are spreading in this country. People aren't easily lumped together.. not all conservatives are racist, not all are against abortion, not all are religious, and not all are against gays.

Yes a large part of people who voted for Bush voted because of the issue of gay marriage. But republicans don't make this a prejudice issue... they twist it into something else to get more support for it. It wasn't about making sure gays couldn't marry, it was about "saving marriage" to people.. they make it something friendly sounding and easier for people that are confused to support. I am certain while many people voted for Bush because they dislike gays, many also voted because they believed they were preserving the institution of marriage, as the republicans changed it around to being... that doesn't mean they disliked homosexuals.

What people need to do is see through the tricks that those in power try to play... words are so easy to change and fool people with however..

[Cleita]

275. I knew it was sarcasm, but also it was how you think.

Seeing how they tap into the racism, homophobia and sexism of the populace to fool them is exactly why we have to identify these traits in everyone and let them know it. "saving marriage" is very homophobic even though they will say, " I have nothing against gays" yet they would deny them a right that everyone should have. Gay marriage isn't a threat to hetero marriage yet saving marriage would indicate it is and it's just not true.

[deeplydisturbed]

274. sort of related

I have a friend, who will of course remain anonymous....
Sorry, but I do not have enough posts to start a new thread and am looking for some sympathetic ears....
Anyway, my friend is a conservative that refuses to look at other people's views. This person has been a good friend of mine for over 10 years now but looks at race, sexuality and religious affiliation as all in the same, which affects me deeply. He will not even listen to other opinions from the left. Last night he and I were talking with some disagreement and all of a sudden he told me to shut up, said I was stupid and hung up. To me this typifies the conservative stance of "Your argument is making too much sense and will soon debunk my argument, therefore we will no longer talk." Can anyone explain this rationale to me? I love it when someone disagrees because it gives me a cause to work for (or against). Why would my best friend since high school talk to me in this manner? Are we simply too nice as liberals?
Anyway, a random rant from me and I hope to get some replies.

Thanks for reading!

[Cleita]

276. You are discovering what many of us already know, that

conservatives, not only have very closed minds, they aren't able to think critically and rationally about issues that are very clear. Good luck, but I would teach this friend with example rather than words. You may find yourself losing this friend though.

[mondo joe]

277. I don't think opinions about rap music or language are racist.

Opinions about rap music may be entirely aesthetic in nature and have nothing to do with race.

Similarly, people may have opinions about language in culture that have nothing to do with race. If you're opposed to a French/English bilingual USA does that make you anti-white?

[mondo joe]

278. You may be a racist if you think only one or some races can be...

11. You may be a racist if you think only one or some races can be racist.

12. You may be a racist if you believe race is something other than a cultural construct.