Support The Troops Stickers = Christian Fish Logo?

[RPM]

OK - you know the yellow "support the troops" stickers / magnets that look like the ribbon twisted over itself? I noticed a couple of cars the other day that had these things on them, but in a horizontal orientation (instead of vertical). It struck me then that, when in the horizontal position, the ribbon makes roughly the same shape as the fish logo that a good number of holier-than-thous like to put on their cars to broadcast how wonderful they are....

Has anyone else noticed / thought about this; or have I just gone off the deep end?

Do you think this is intentional?

[xultar]

1. Bottom line we need our own stuff. Not that we don't support the troops

but I wanna put something on my ride.

I just can't find the right message.

[Atlant]

7. Burlington, VT Peace and Justice Center/Store

> I just can't find the right message.

The Burlington, VT Peace and Justice Center/Store has yellow ribbons
in the usual size but they say "Support our troops/Bring them home
now!".

http://www.pjcvt.org/store.htm

Atlant

[0007]

13. Bring the troops Home/Work for Peace

[Selwynn]

30. We need to define the terms, find the right terms and stick with them.

I'm sick of this "I support the troops / I DO NOT support the troops" crap on the left, because 90% of the time both people share the same sentiment. Most people who say they do not support the troops in Iraq don't mean they actually wish the troops or anyone else harm. They mean that this war is wrong, and our soliders need to come home now and our military needs to be held accountable for its actions right along side the white house.

The problem is, a lot of people who say they support the troops mean the exact same thing - but they seek to make a distinction between the 18 year old kid in Bagdhad who just wants to come home safe, and the policies that led to this war.

Personally - speaking strictly personally - I don't support the troops, or I should say, I'm not interested in using the "I support the troops phrase." It is a meaningless jingoism created by warhawks in order to guilt dissenters into silence. What does it mean to "support the troops?" Ask someone that the next time you see that sticker or hear them say it.

I support all human beings, and their right to exist. As such, I don't want soldiers to be harmed, though I know that they will be on all sides. I would like everyone to go home safe and soon. And if that's support, then they have it, and every Iraqi fighter has it, and every innocent civilian has it. But this war is wrong, in fact it is criminal and I've never been more ashame of my countries actions abroad that I am now. I do not support the WAR, and too often that's all "support the troops" really means.

So we need to find some other statement that more accurately reflects what many of us feel I think.

[Doohickie]

41. My bumper stickers include:

"Kerry-Edwards 04"

"Re-Defeat Bush 04"

"Support Our Troops" (rectangular, not ribbon-shaped)

"I VOTED!"

"Texas Democrat"

I certainly don't support the war, but wanted to go for some kind of patriotic message, and "Support Our Troops" is the best the Dem Party office had that day.

[artfan]

2. Intentional for some

just a matter of getting them to fit onto a given space for others. By the way I would not put one on my car the magnets can damage/remove the cars paint.

[L84TEA]

3. yeah I noticed it...

They are all doing it. Shows they are part of a 'clan'.
creepie!

[Hotdiggitydog]

4. You are losing it...

I've seen quite a few "Support the Troops" stickers displayed proudly next to Kerry-Edwards stickers.

[Kolesar]

6. me too ... eom

[cubsfan forever]

9. I have both on my ride eom

Professor 2

[Atlant]

11. They're not "losing it".

Since someone pointed it out a few weeks ago, I've been paying
attention.

A non-zero number of cars that could fit the magnets in either
the vertical direction or the inclined-rightwards direction (so
that the text is horizontally level) have definitely got the
ribbons turned to the "fish" orientation. On cars with the ribbons
in this orientation, there's also a high incidence of other
indications of religious insanity.

Atlant

[Doohickie]

44. Okay, so let's say that they are that way on purpose

The next, logical question is:

SO FRIGGIN WHAT????

[RPM]

47. it's a sad day when waging a war is a christian thing

thats friggin what.

I don't like the idea of equating unjust war and support the troops; let alone equating unjust war, support the troops, and Godliness.


Specially since implicit in that is that Supporting the troops in an unjust war for God is good; I don't support the war, and I dont think it should be made a religious issue - which probably makes me 'bad'.

[Doohickie]

50. I think we've established a pattern of behavior

linking the Religious Right with making war. So why is this news?

[Chimpanzee]

5. Whenever I see those Support Our Troops ribbons

I just assume it's a republican feeling a little guilty about their support for dumbya and his illegal war. Are they trying to lecture us heathen democrats to make themselves feel morally superior?

[The White Tree]

22. I think there trying to lecture

It doesn't say "I support our troops" which would be more accurate. I take it's meaning to mean, "Hey everybody support our troops"

Kinda like the Daryl Whorley song, "Have You Forgotten?", which seemed to be used as a rallying song for the invasion of Iraq. Which is ironic because invading Iraq made everyone forget about Osama Bin Laden who the song was about. If I am ever unfortunate to hear that somewhere I always think, "No Daryl I haven't forgotten but the president seems to have."

We'll probably keep forgetting about Osama and his group until there's another terrorist attack on America. Wonder what song they'll write then?

[Doohickie]

51. The thing is,

they really don't feel guilty! It drives me nuts.

I did see a good sticker today, though....

"GOD IS NOT A REPUBLICAN
or a Democrat"

I found myself saying, "AMEN!"

[liberalmuse]

8. It does look like a fish.

I didn't notice this until it was pointed out here at DU.

Those ribbons mean nothing. Most of the people putting them on their cars support this war. They can't possibly support our troops while allowing them to be sent to kill and die in a war that is unjustifiable and unnecessary. Flag stickers (which I will not put on my car because I consider it desecration) and the like are just signs of herd mentality. I dislike mindless jingoism, and that goes for jingoistic symbols, too.

[Democracy Died 2004]

10. i like the new bumber sticker i am getting

in the mail soon.


How many miles per dead soldier does your SUV get?

[ComerPerro]

12. "Support the Troops" is code for

"Support Bush or shut the fuck up"

[0007]

14. You got it Toyota! Given out by church groups that support junior

and faith based organizations.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tyler Durden]

16. There is only ONE WAY to "support" the troops.

END THE WAR, BRING THEM HOME RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Tico is not putting forward a "popular" decision, but individual responsibility for your actions is a cornerstone of our democracy and our legal system. And to say they are just following orders? A member of the Waffen SS would agree completely.

No matter how much it irks one to say this, and remember, I am a veteran, WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN IRAQ IS MORALLY WRONG, and ANYONE who supports these actions, INCLUDING soldiers in theater, bears a part of the moral responsibility for these actions.

ALL of us do: if you paid ONE PENNY in tax that went to the FED, you supported this action. I did when I bought gas for the car this morning, and it is beginning to feel like that penny is a another chip out of my soul.

[RPM]

49. Oh - I thought it was phone cards

A local charity rounded up phonecards recently....

Seems like "polishing the brass on the Titanic" (with due respect to the book/movie that yielded your screenname....)

You're a great man, Mr. Durden; I really admire what you are doing!"

[progmom]

26. Tico, I can understand why you think that based on what we have seen on TV

and in pictures online. It's hard not to think that.

But I know people who signed up for the reserves to pay for college. It was just giving up a few weekends to be able to afford something that otherwise would have been out of reach. And now they're stuck in Iraq. They're scared and mortified and disillusioned...

In some cases, the recruiter lied and told them there was no way they could be called up before they finished college. 18 year-old kids, who excelled at math and science and did lots of volunteer work and called their mom their best friend.

Sure, there are some sick, macho, blood-thirsty soldiers over there, but I don't think it's fair to assume that they're in the majority.

[UL_Approved]

17. Those little paper ribbons should read:

Better you than me.

[AllyCat]

18. You know the anti-abortion sticker tha says

...It's a crime that a child must die so you may live as you choose? I've thought about making one with a picture of a dead or wounded Iraqi child that says the same thing and then put a picture of an SUV on the right side of the sticker.

Or heck, have it refer to one of our American GIs since these people don't seem to think non-white children are children too.

[KG]

19. 'christians for mass murder' - how cute.

[Selwynn]

28. So, if I have a yellow ribbon on my car, I'm for mass murder?

Or do I, maybe, interpret supporting the troops to mean wanting them to be safe and come home soon? Just checking...

[liveoaktx]

20. Yup...intentional.

[jhain]

21. I have both

made some of my own bumper stickers
www.makestickers.com

that say:

TAKE BACK GOD
STOP THE FRAUD

and I have the yellow ribbons- and they are turned sideways but I did it so I could read the writing.if you put them on vertically you can't read the little sloganish things.

I also have a sign in the back window that says:

THERE IS NO MANDATE

[ghostsofgiants]

23. "You support the troops by wearing yellow ribbons?..."

"...Just bring back out motherfucking brothers and sisters!"

(Sage Francis - "Slow Down Gandhi")

[arwalden]

24. It Makes Me Want To Wretch...

whenever I see stuff like that. But then again... this is a religious war, eh? GOD is on our side, right? GOD wants us to be at war, so GOD will make certain we win... so isn't it appropriate that the SOT ribbons are tilted and made to look like Christian fish?

[southpaw]

25. I like this one...

more here: http://bringthemhomenow.com/

[Selwynn]

27. Just because someone has a fish logo does not make them "holierthanthou"

You don't know anything about the person in the car because they have a logo that is a centuries old symbol for christianity on their car except for one thing: they identify themselves with the christian faith. They may be members of Democratic Underground, or they may be right wing nutballs. An emblem isn't going to tell you that.

That said, what makes me more irritated than anything is the immature "emblem" war that both immature christians and immature non-christians participate in - the whole "darwin" emblem thing. First there was the Christian emblem. Then there was the Darwin emblem (which to me goes fine right along side the Christian emblem with no contradiction for me) then there was the christian eating darwin emblem, etc. etc.

I got so fed up with the whole thing, I finally got my own: It was a fish that said "N' Chips" inside of it. :)

[RPM]

29. to me it does...

I don't take kindly to gratuitious (and meaningless) demonstrations of faith.

You will know them by their acts - not by whether they have a fish on their car or cross on their neck

[Selwynn]

33. Well, ok then I'm holier than thou. Let me ask you a question?

Do you have any shirts with the logo of where you work on them? Any clothing or paraphernalia from your College? Do you have a shirt that says "proud member of ACLU, PFAW, HRW," or any other cause or group? Did you have a John Kerry Bumper sticker on your car? Do you have any kind of bumper sticker on your car that states an opinion. Now let me ask another question: If you answered no to all of these, does that mean you also feel anyone who DOES have any of this things is ego-centric, or making some kind of self-righteous declaration of being better than you?

I am no less proud of my faith than I am proud to be a member of Democratic Underground. I have a Democratic Underground sticker on my car - do you think that is wrong?

I didn't think so. How about this: if you don't want to put something on your car, don't do it. And how about not making stupid snap judgments about others based on ....their car? That's about the most shallow thing I've ever heard of in my life.

It's nice to know you are able to pass judgement on me without ever meeting me one single time, just becasue of an emblem I have.

[RPM]

34. good for you

I am glad you are proud of your faith - and you sound like the kind of person who backs up their advertisement of faith with your actions.

To answer your questions:
Yes, I wear shirts with my college on them - and i do my best to represent the school both professionally and personally.

As to my affiliations with activist or political organizations, I don't flash stickers or wear logo'ed Tee shirts. I don't need to to demonstrate my commitment to the causes for which I work - they are readily apparent by my words and actions.

I didn't answer no to all of your questions, but I'll go at the next one anyway: No - I feel anyone who holds themself out as something through a sticker, logo, cause, or religion had better back up their assertion through their actions I am sick and tired of persons displaying a logo and thinking it makes them something that their actions militate against - in short wearing a cross yet following doctrine doesn't make one a Christian. Unfortunately, the religious right has managed to co-opt the symbols of Christianity and make them (at least to me) a manifestation of an attitude that is excessively or hypocritically pious - the epitome of "holier-than-thou"

I am glad that you are as proud of your faith as you are of being on DU - I am sure that both are positive powers in your life. I hope your actions back up the way you are outwardly identifying yourself - I would be willing to bet that they do.

But I will not back off of viewing the fish on ones car with suspicion. You have chosen to identify yourself to others through a logo (or two) on your car. I don't know your particular motives, but many do it so that others say "hey, he is one of the good guys"; others do it to annoy others; others do it to identify themself. Anyway you cut it however, you are making a signal to others of what your beliefs and interests. It's the essence of brand marketing - associate a logo and name with qualities of a product. By doing so you open yourself to persons thinking "hey, i don't like that product". But you can't have it both ways - you cant identify yourself as something and not expect others to attach an association to your identification.

For example, I don't like the Curves Brand (for the owner's anti-choice stance) and must admit (somewhat shamefully) that I have a more negative view of people who give their money to that company. If you choose to hold yourself out as a member of a group, you become accountable, in part, for the behavior and acts of the group.

I have generally found religion to be suspect. As of late I am particularly turned off by Christianity's false moralism - the hypocritical advancing of certain 'values' followed by a total failure to live up to those ideals has left me repulsed by the state of modern Christianity. If you don't want to be held accountable for the acts of others you _choose_ to affiliate yourself with, don't hold yourself out as part of the group. (note: this statement doesn't hold true to race or sex, as pigment and sex are immutable qualities, given at birth).

Sorry if this offends you - you seem like a good person. But I can not help but have negative feelings toward Christianity, considering both its long, bloody history and the current state of the religion. I hope that Christianity can get its act together and that the condition of the practice doesn't repulse me. But in the meantime, i find it to be a flawed institution, I have a negative view of it and its practitioners who have let it come to such a pass.

[progmom]

35. I can see what you mean about the fish. I had one on my car...

...but I can sometimes be an aggressive driver and didn't want to give Christianity a bad rep. :eyes: So I took it off.

But the reason I initially put the fish on the car was because I respected its origins: The symbol was simple to draw and was often used among Christians as a type of password during times of persecution by the Roman government. If two strangers met and were unsure whether each other was a Christian, one would draw an arc in the earth like: ). If the other were a Christian, they would complete the symbol with a reverse arc: ( ), forming the outline of a fish.

I figured I was young, liberal, and reasonably hip, and wanted people to know that not all Christians are RW grandmas. When I had seen the fish on cars of people my age who didn't appear to be uptight repubs, I know that it always made me feel a little better about my faith.

[Selwynn]

36. Ok, that's obviously very fair. Thanks for taking the time. :)

God, I love it when conversations go like this. :)

:toast:

I agree with you - in fact, you're very right that cars with little fish on it might make one suspicious. We've seen a lot of shit done in the name of those little fish... its understandable to be skeptical. It's even more understandable since so many people who are the "right" kind of Christians don't advertise it in the same way that the crazies do.

Obviously, I myself was irritated with the whole "fish" think, hence my purchase of the "N' Chips" fish. Your opinion doesn't offend me now that I understand it more clearly.

Be well,
Sel

[RPM]

38. thanks for the opportunity

Sel - :toast: to you also. have been having an interesting internal dialog on the intersection of identity, prejudice and affiliation for the last hour; thanks for challenging my outcome and helping me arrive at a framework of a doctrine of my stance.

I grew up in a Lutheran home and am intimate with the bible and the teachings of Christ. Personally, I think the teachings of Christ and the basic thrust of the scriptures are very positive things: even when it seems as if I may be violating the old "Judge not, lest ye be judged" mantra my mother drilled into my head. In short, the principles and rationales arising from the stories and teachings are ones I can get behind.

I start hitting resistance when it comes to the more supernatural stuff: Virgin Birth, Resurrection, etc. that I get hung up - mainly because the people who wrote these books had a relatively poor technical understanding of the world.

Centralized religion is where I get very conflicted. I see both the good and bad in it. I realized that any examination of oneself requires a critical eye and the (very uncommon) strength to admit that one may be wrong about things. Some may be able to do this on their own, but many, can not. So, a spiritual guide becomes necessary - as such I can deal with the concept of organized religion in the same sense that I recognize education as a critical step in the guidance of the development of ones intellect.

However, when the individual development becomes secondary to the perpetuation of the power structure (Not surprisingly, churches were one of the first corporations and deal with many of the self-perpetuating power structure issues that businesses deal with in corporate governance), I reject the institution as failing its primary goal. My revulsion at persons who check into church once a week (i almost became ill once when i heard a priest state "please realize, this wedding service does not count toward this weeks obligation") expecting to be deemed "OK" troubles me as much as educational institutions where the students are processed through with a basic education without thinking for themselves so that at the end of 4 years they can be handed a diploma.

What's the point here? I guess I wish we could tell the difference between the rubberstamp Christians and the ones who are practicing the tenets of the faith on a daily basis.


By the way - since I last posted, I saw a car with a yellow ribbon sticker that had a cross in the loop area and said "God Bless Our Troops" - I think I will not comment on that one O8)

[progmom]

43. RPM - I know this is a dialogue mainly between you and Sel...

...but I just wanted to thank you for your really great post. You totally nailed why I have a problem with a lot of organized religion.

One of my favorite songs by singer/songwriter Sam Phillips has the line "I need God, not the political church" -- I find myself singing that a lot.

[RPM]

45. thank you for the kind words

I always think of Bono's monologue during "Bullet the Blue Sky" on U2's Rattle and Hum: "The God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister."

[newportdadde]

31. These stickers are everywhere,

I actually find myself counting the cars that have them on the way to work as a way to pass the time in slow traffic.

Having saw them on sale at QT for a 'limited time only' @ 2.99 I personally find the ribbons to be a cheap ass way of self patting on the back for most of the folks that have them. "Look at me I'm a good American because I bought this plastic magnet".

It was different when it was the wife/husband placing one around the homes tree.. I could go with that. This just feels like cheap commericalism to me.

Whats really great is here in Kansas City I get to see the yellow support the troops, next to a red/white/blue God Bless America and then the ever popular "Go Chiefs" in Chiefs red and yellow... what a slap in the face to the troops... talk about trivialzing whatever message you might have been going for.

Ow and has anyone heard the lovely "Sticker on the Bumper of my SUV song?" :eyes:

[recovering democrat]

42. About the song

I have this tendency to listen to Hannity just to keep up with the opposition. He had Chely Wright talking about why she wrote this song and they played the song. Hannity's website had a link to a site to buy the song for $8. I sent her a letter suggesting that maybe the driver of an SUV didn't have a problem with the Marine sticker as much as she did the SUV and I thought it was hypocritical to "support the troops" on one hand and to help contribute to the causes of the war in which they are risking their lives by driving an SUV. I sent a $16 donation to Stars and Stripes instead of buying the stupid song (she says a portion of the proceeds will go to this charitable organization) and explained why.

It just made me feel better! :)

I have "support the troops" stuff on my car but I agree with many of the sentiments here that just slapping the magnet on your car trivializes the message. Supporting the soldiers involves a whole lot more to me.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. It is probably intentional but for not what you think.

When I had my yellow magnet (before it was stolen), I had to put it horizontally because I didn't have enough room to put it vertically. I am sure that is why you see it horizontally.

[Walt Starr]

37. I have one on my vehicle precisely as you describe it

Um, it's horizontal so the words "Support Our Troops" can be read horizontally rather than vertically.

:eyes:

[SemperEadem]

39. Yellow ribbons

Does that idea come from the Tony Orlando and Dawn song "Tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree"? That song is about a man returning from prison... I suppose war in Iraq is a sort of prison...

It cracks me up what some people will overlook to make their point.

It's a song about an ex-con...

[Atlant]

40. A'yup. From the song. (NT)

[CornField]

46. Someone stole mine

I had one of the yellow magnetic dudes, but mine said "BRING THEM HOME NOW!" Someone took it off my Jeep... stole it. bastard.

ETA... didn't pay for mine. It was a freebie during the election at the local Kerry Campaign office.

[ckramer]

48. The troops can't be home because

the president is a warmonger.

Four more wars.

[Deja Q]

52. YES. It is intentional. Some have the silver fish by the rotated sticker.

You are not nuts or in :tinfoilhat: mode.