Are there ANY drawbacks to living in Canada? A few questions...

[fujiyama]

I'm relatively young and I will be graduating from college soon. I don't like the way the country is going and I have no confidence the situation will change or get better any time soon. While I know nothing for certain, how is life in Canada?

So how is Canada overall compared to the US? Despite the fact that I live in a state bordering them, and the fact that I have visted the country several times, I know little about it.

Except for the following:

It's tolerant and quite diverse. As a racial minority I wouldn't be worried mucha about racism in Canada. Granted I visited Toronto, but I loved the diversity. I have lived in the US my entire life and my parents emigrated here. I have had a comfortable life and haven't faced racism and discrimination in that I know of. Of course with hysteria over terror and with the PATRIOT Act, I think it will change.

It's relatively friendly.

They love Hockey and have many Tim Hortons.

Several provinces have legalized pot and gay marriage. Neither have a direct impact on me (though if I choose to I could smoke without fear).

They have single payer universal health care. I know it's not quite perfect and some procedures have waiting lists. Although I know everyone has some healthcare. I would always know, even if I lost my job, that I would still be covered. How is the health care overall in Canada?

Which cities are best in terms of technology and engineering? I will be completing a degree in engineering. I suppose it's relatively marketable, but are there any cities in particular that are strong in these areas?

How is the pay scale? I heard that it's less, but is that true? I know taxes are higher. I could live with that knowing that they are being spent properly.

How is the cost of living? I heard that Toronto is expensive and I would expect the same of Vancouver. How do housing costs compare with that of the US?

If I ever decided to move back, would I lose a lot on savings because of the exchange rate?

Thanks to anyone that has any experiences about living there, especially American ex pats.

[Florida_Geek]

1. Snow Snow Snow

it will be Barbados for me someday.

[fujiyama]

2. Forgot about the weather

No problem for me, as I live in MI. I'm used to the cold.

[Siyahamba]

23. Cold != Snow

Other than southwestern Ontario, anywhere else in Canada gets less snow than Michigan. Michigan gets the lake effect snow.

[Doohickie]

27. Actually, Detroit gets almost no lake effect snow

I've lived both there and in Buffalo. The winds are primarily out of the west in both areas. Detroit is upwind of Lake Erie; Buffalo is downwind and therefore gets much more snow. The western part of MI gets the full lake effect like Buffalo does.

[Siyahamba]

31. Still, quite a bit.

I'm in southeastern Michigan and there is three times the annual snowfall here than there was in southwestern Manitoba.

[Doohickie]

37. Yeah, I can believe that

Detroit gets *some* lake effect, but only when the winds are out of the northeast which is not the norm.

[KurtNYC]

3. Here is a list of employers in Toronto

http://www.alltorontojobs.com/employers.htm

and don't forget the hot tech company Research in Motion
http://www.blackberry.com/products/blackberry/index.shtml?DCPID=hmpchosen

the economy and politics:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/

[fudge stripe cookays]

4. As a chick

and an ex-shopaholic, the shopping sucks.

Sorry Canadian friends, but it's true. If/when we go, I've had friends who say not to look at things this way, though. Don't miss things from America.

They say NOT to go up expecting it to be just like home. Things are different; not identical to the states, and it does take some getting used to. So I'm trying to go into it with an open mind.

And if there's something I don't have, I'll try to find something GOOD to love instead of missing something from home.

That said, I'm awfully glad I'll have my favorite recipes from Blue Mesa to take with me so I won't suffer too much of a Tex-Mex withdrawal!

FSC

[fujiyama]

6. Being that I'm a guy

and not a shopaholic, it wouldn't matter too much to me...though I'll admit I like electronic toys, like most guys. Aren't most items a bit more expensive in Canada?

What has your experience in Canada been like overall?

[fudge stripe cookays]

13. I love it there.

It's my second home because of reprehensor (he's from Alberta, and we try to get back every other year if we can).

Calgary being as conservative as it is bothers me a little, but it's much like Texas. Oil, natural gas, agriculture, cows, rodeo, that kind of stuff. But I love it in SPITE of that stuff.

Alberta is the sunniest province, so I think I can live there without too much seasonal disorder because of all the snow.

The people that I have met in Canada are wonderful. Even the conservatives are not like at home. And the Christians (most of them seem very rooted in religion, not dogma).

Our friends in Calgary are very liberal; I have met others at an STC Conference who were also very cool, and very "live and let live" types. Their humor is quirky and caustic, and they have always shown me a lot of respect, because I have tried to learn a lot about the country and talk about it with them. They are proud of their country without being jingoistic or flag-waving in the process. I'm facinated by all the cultures there; the Germans, the Metis, the Inuit, the French, etc. I guess since I have some French Canadian originally. It's fun to trade stories with the natives, who could also be my cousins.

My in-laws are quite a bit more conservative, but they're farming folks from rural areas up near Edmonton, so their opinions aren't quite as open-minded as some.

Banff and Lake Louise are breathtaking. I would love to be able to camp in the Kananaskis on weekends and not have to worry about the heat or typical Texan creepy crawlies like fire ants, scorpions, rattlesankes, copperheads, water moccasins, etc. It sounds like heaven on earth right now.

And if you get to Calgary, you simply have to try The River Cafe in Prince's Island Park. It's one of my favorite restaurants on earth.

FSC

[ironflange]

43. Well put

I live in Calgary, and you are dead-on in your observations. Let me add a few things.

This town is not anywhere near as redneck as many people make it out to be. I guess you have to live here to see that. Sure, there are lots and lots of pickup trucks here (including mine), but you're as likely to see a soccer mom driving one as a good-ol-boy. Politics are conservative, but not opperssive. In fact, Calgary has a strange habit of electing Liberals as mayor: Sykes, Klein (a Lib back then), Duerr, Bronconnier.

An important thing to note is that Canadians are much less passionate about politics than Americans; we're far less likely to ostracize people because of their political beliefs. I know some far-right-wingers (by Canadian standards), and the furthest things have gone is teasing and joking.

People should not get scared of Calgary, it's really a great place to live. It's less than 30 minutes from my house to the mountains. You're right about the camping thing, it's nice to not have to worry about creepy crawlies. Just be careful about the bears.

[fudge stripe cookays]

52. Thanks! So I guess...

I'll be hooking up with you and SLB for a pint at the James Joyce next time we're up, eh?

Cheers! :D
FSC

[ironflange]

53. Let me know!

:toast:

[goddess40]

11. Try curling

it's fun, it's social and they have a longer curling season then the we do.

[EOTE]

50. I love Curling!

What an interesting sport. I saw it during the 2002 Olympics and I was captivated by it. I was really suprised it didn't have a larger following here.

[Atlant]

5. A few drawbacks...

A few drawbacks:

• Everywhere but Vancouver, it's really cold for a significant part of the year.
  
  
• Most of the population lives downwind of several big American cities
  that would make dandy nuclear targets. Nearly *ALL* of the population
  lives near the US border and would be at risk from US hegemony.
  
  
• We're their biggest trading partner so if we go belly-up, they
  get badly hurt.
  
  
• It's not as big as the United States so it isn't the hub of
  certain universes (Electronic technology, biotech, etc.) that
  certain places in the USA represent. (That's not to say there
  isn't activity, but there's nothing like, for example, Silicon
  Valley in Canada, and the volume of film productions in Toronto
  doesn't some close to LA/Hollywood.)
  
  
• You need to learn to say "riding" rather than "congressional
  district".
  
  
• They still have their Right Wing nuts, although many of them are
  conveniently collected together in Alberta.
  
  
• Quebec and the Bloc Quebecois separatist movement always provides
  the potential for "interesting politics".

There are many advantages, of course, but you didn't ask about those.

Atlant

[mmonk]

54. OK, now the advantages.

[ilovenicepeople]

55. Advantages?

We're getting Fox News (scarcasm):puke:

[Atlant]

59. Sensible, friendly, thinking people. The rest flow from there.

> OK, now the advantages

Sensible, friendly, thinking people. The rest flow from there.

• Health care for all.
  
  
• Multicultural cities that work.
  
  
• Good mass transit in the cities.
  
  
• Not currently involved in our little problem in Iraq.
  
  
• A reasonably-free press (with the possible exception of Alberta)
  
  
• People overseas won't look askance at you;
  "Non, non, non -- Je suis Canadien!"
  
  
• A government that ain't afraid to call itself "Liberal".
  
  
• Viable parties *TO THE LEFT* of the liberals!

Shall I go on?

[Mister K]

7. You have to get used to ending sentices with the letter A

Repeat after me.

Good Day A

[Siyahamba]

24. I rarely heard that growing up in Canada

And I hear it used all the time in the US.

[Doohickie]

29. When I lived in Detroit I had to take business trips to Ontario

and the "...eh?" at the end of sentences was ubiquitous in Ontario.

[Siyahamba]

32. Ontario is not all of Canada...

Another common stereotype.

[Doohickie]

38. It isn't??????

[Siyahamba]

41. You're right

I'm just oversensitive, I should stay out of this thread. The constant Canadian jokes were part of the reason I moved to the US. I know people mean them all in good fun, but it got annoying every time I told someone where I'm from hearing "lol eh cold maple syrup beer hoser".

That's a stupid reason to want to leave one's country over, and now I'm paying the price in regret.

[Doohickie]

45. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it as a dig.

And will be the first to admit that my Canada experience is limited to the Windsor-Fort Erie-Toronto region, and one or two visits to Montreal.

[nedlogg]

8. If it wasn't so freakin' cold there . .

I'd be gone tommorrow.

Beautiful country that minds it's own business.

Much lower crime rate.

Fewer billionaires, larger middle class.

Yes, I understand their taxes are somewhat higher than ours but then again they have a healtcare plan that works. I know this first hand. I broke an ankle while hiking on vaction many years ago. Went to hospital on Prince Edward Island. Got all fixed up with excelent care. They did, however, have to give me a bill for $125.00 because I was an alien. They were very apologetic about it though.

It's a shame the Mexico can't be more like Canada.

[Frogtutor]

18. My dad says Nova Scotia has a nicer climate because of the

Gulf Stream, but is that actually a part of Canada? (Please forgive my ignorance; I could go look it up, but I'm being lazy right now!)
I'm from/in Texas (hotter than hell a good part of the year, but it's what I'm used to). My dad told me this in response to my half-joking comment the day after the election about moving to Canada if it wasn't so damn cold.

Frogtutor

*I should add that the climate varies somewhat accross Texas; I live in Fort Worth (North, central) where we have VERY humid, hot, long summers, mild springs, falls and winters (we MIGHT have an ice storm once a year, or a couple of inches of snow that melts in the same day).

[Atlant]

22. The Maritime Provinces

> but is {Nova Scotia} actually a part of Canada?

Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island are the three
"Maritime Provinces". They're very much a part of Canada but divided
from the rest of "English" Canada by the French-speaking Province of
Quebec. They are a very popular tourist destination for Northern
New Englanders (and vice-versa).

Atlant

[Frogtutor]

51. Thanks for the info, Atlant! n/t

[alfredo]

9. Celine Dion nuff said.

[fujiyama]

20. LOL

Didn't they her south though? I'd have guessed she's American by now.

[alfredo]

26. figures.

Canadians must keep all the good stuff to themselves.

[CatBoreal]

30. Yeah but....

she spends most of her time in Vegas now. You'd be safe from her.

Cam

[Atlant]

10. Savings...

> If I ever decided to move back, would I lose a lot on savings
> because of the exchange rate?

Right now, the Loonie is appreciating compared to the US$. Assuming
this keeps up, if you were banking Canadian dollars right now, you'd
get a big *benefit* when you eventually converted your savings back
to (then-cheaper) US$.

Of course, there's no guarantee save the fact that Shrub will probably
be in office for the next four years.

Atlant

[signmike]

12. 9 months of winter and

3 months 'late in the fall'

[Spazito]

15. Wrong!

I have 3 months of winter, if that, and it very rarely goes below 32 degrees F and I don't live in Vancouver. Skiing is great, fishing is great, health care is great, our taxes are equivalent with the US when all taxes are taken into account. Even Yukon doesn't have winter 9 months of the year.

I am not trying to sell Canada to anyone, making a decision to leave one's own country must be one of the most difficult decisions but I won't have "mis-statements" being said without correction.

[signmike]

57. OK, then...

Jay Leno will stand corrected. That's who I quoted. Maybe it's Canadian humor, eh?

[eataTREE]

14. Hmm, drawbacks.

I'm the opposite: a Canadian ex-pat (dual citizen) living in the USA.

The principal drawback of Canada is thus: The standard of living is, quite honestly, lower. It's harder to get a good job, and that good job will quite likely pay less than you could be making at a similar job in the USA.

However: regardless of your employment situation, you will get access to basic health care. (Want world-class healthcare? Then go to the States and pony up the big bucks. But if you need to see the GP about your flu without breaking the piggy bank, you're taken care of.)

Furthermore, most cities and even some small towns (at least in B.C.) have excellent public transportation. Unless you live someplace quite remote, you really do not need a car to get along. Not having to pay out a car payment, insurance, and gas money every month will make that smaller paycheque go a lot furhter.

Another drawback: It's flipping DARK in the winter. Cold, well, you get used to that; what I never could stand is the dark. When it gets light at 9:30 in the morning and is dark again by 4:00, you want to do yourself in.

If you're into computers, go to Vancouver, or perhaps Toronto. If you're a chemical engineer or geologist, go to Alberta; the oil patch is always hiring and you'll spend 75% less on housing. Alberta has a few right-wing nuts but they're tame compared to the American variety.

[RedSock]

16. i am moving to toronto

i am in the process of applying to move to toronto. if you want to work in canada, you'll have to apply for a permanent resident card. it is a long, expensive process.

check out my partner's blog here:
http://we.movetocanada.blogspot.com

or in my sig for info and how we are doing it. she also submitted an article to DU about it this morning, which may be accepted.

EDIT: Toronto makes sense for us because of the many English-speakers and proximity to family in the NYC area (though I do have an uncle in Montreal). Also it apparently gets much less snow than Buffalo -- it is on the "good" side of the lake.

[Minstrel Boy]

17. According to the UN the standard of living is higher in Canada

"The standard of living in the United States is one of the highest in the world by almost any measure. On measures such as the UN Human Development Index the United States is always in the top ten. However, the United States is consistently ranked lower than Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, and Japan."
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Standard-of-living-in-the-United-States

[eataTREE]

40. *shrugs*

All I can speak from is my own experience: I found it much easier to find "real" jobs in the USA, and have found the pay to be higher by a factor of three or four. Your own mileage may vary.

[sandnsea]

58. 1960's America

When the gap between the haves and have nots was not so huge. When business owners didn't expect to live in a mansion while the employee lives in low income housing. That's what I'm hearing you say.

World class health care in the US? Basic health care in Canada? I don't get what you could possibly mean. Cutting edge technology that no insurance company pays for tends to be in the US? Possibly, but 95% of Americans don't have access to it anyway. Do you just see the world from your own front porch or am I reading too much into your statements?

[joelogan]

19. Consider moving instead to a European country or to Australia

Australia and many countries in Europe are more liberal than canada; economically liberal, that is, although many DUers (quite stupidly, in my opinion) seem only to consider "social liberalism" when they talk about the word "liberal" (No wonder the Democratic Party is on its ass!).

Denmark, Sweden, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway and others are probably the best countries in the world to live in for the AVERAGE person. Many, if not most, people there do speak english, as they are taught it at an early age.

Australia may be the best choice, as it is easier to get into if you are young and educated, and of course English is the primary language. And Australia is a big country with growth potential, natural resources, and lots of good weather along its coasts.

Also, in most of those European countries I mentioned, you would have to get married to a citizen to stay there without a job, and it might be hard to ever become a citizen in some of them. Not so with Australia. In order to get the full range of social safety net benefits, you usually need to be a citizen in most European countries.

Canada is indeed more liberal than America, both socially and economically, but it is less liberal economically than Australia and those European countries I mentioned.

I started a couple of years ago to make preparations to move to another country, one with universal healthcare. I can get immediate citizensip in Canada using my Canadian born mother's birth certificate, and I can do the same in Ireland using my Belfast born grandmother's birth certificate (once I get hold of it). Also, her Belfast birth will get me in England and let me live in many EU countries, although social safety benefits are much harder to get.

The main reason why you as a young person should leave for some better country is that living in a country is investing in it. You want a country that shares the wealth among as many people as possible. America never did that all that much, and it is getting worse. It did have an advantage previously in that investment capital was concentrated here. THat is definitely no longer the case. Clearly the job market here in America is becoming a shadow of its former self.

Why stay here?

[fujiyama]

Do you know anything about New Zealand?

How difficult is it to get in there? In a way I look at New Zealand as Australia's Canada, as Australia too is governed by a RW government. Though I would imagine that even John Howard is more economically liberal than Bush. Though I don't know.

Australia and New Zealand also sounds interesting. BTW, how are these two countries for minorities? I've heard about racism in the country. Is it bad? I heard that it has become more diverse over the years though. One of the reasons I'm interested in leaving is because of paranoia of brown people. I'm not interested in living in a country where my neighbor may view me with suspicion for no reason. The reason I mentioned Canada specifically is not just geographical, but also because it has had a long tradition of welcoming immigrants.

[joelogan]

25. NZ, immigration, liberal cliches

I do not know much about NZ; I hear it is harder to get into than Aus. Also, I hear NZ is less economically liberal than Aus, Europe and Canada, and that NZ is somewhat like America in its darwinistic capitalism approach.

Do not worry about liberal cliches regarding immigration. Pro-immigration is the RIGHTwing platform, as mass immigration depresses wages. However, obviously in the past, fascist governments have used people of different races as red flags and scapegoats. Australia is in no way about to become fascist. Yes, most Australians want less immigration. And obviously business interests there want more immigration--it brings down wages. Who do you think should rightly prevail?

I would look into Australia if I were you. If you cannot get work there, they will give you money for housing and food, and medical care is provided free of charge by the state. Try getting that in America if you are not a welfare mom!

[fujiyama]

35. I wouldn't really care

what most people's views on policy are - as long as they aren't viewing me with suspicion.

This country is increasingly paranoi and fanatical religiously. I do know that atleast in Australia religion plays less of a role in politics and the religious right doesn't have nearly as much power.

[fujiyama]

21. .

[Doohickie]

28. Gravy on your fries instead of ketchup

Get used to it.

[fujiyama]

33. Isn't it actually mayonaise?

n/t

[Doohickie]

39. Ontario and west: Gravy

Quebec- all that cheese curd shit.




CAUTION: This post contains oversimplification.

The point is that ketchup is not the standard condiment in Canada.

[CatBoreal]

34. ....and cheese curds!

It's called poutine and it's delish!

BTW, you can also get vinegar with your fries, or mayonaise! Gotta love multiculturalism!

Cam

[ibegurpard]

47. And vinegar

Just as common as ketchup in fast food places.

[Columbia]

36. Canada

Canada is less diverse than you think it is. The US has about a 30% minority population compared to Canada's 14% or so.

Also, Canada's unemployment rate is consistently higher than the US.

[Frederic Bastiat]

42. That's because we count all the folks that are unemployed

Folks don't just drop off the rolls like they do in the US statistics.

[Columbia]

46. Not true

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_faq.htm#Ques5

Unemployed persons are:

All persons who were not classified as employed during the survey reference week, made specific active efforts to find a job during the prior 4 weeks, and were available for work.

All persons who were not working and were waiting to be called back to a job from which they had been temporarily laid off.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_faq.htm#Ques14

How are the unemployed counted in other countries?
The sample survey system of counting the unemployed in the United States is also used by many foreign countries, including Canada, Mexico, Australia, Japan, and all of the countries in the European Economic Community. More recently, a number of Eastern European nations have instituted labor force surveys as well. However, some countries collect their official statistics on the unemployed from employment office registrations or unemployment insurance records. Many nations, including the United States, use both labor force survey data and administrative statistics to analyze unemployment.

http://canadianeconomy.gc.ca/english/economy/unemployment2.html

The unemployment rate is the percentage of the labour force that actively seeks work but is unable to find work at a given time. Discouraged workers—persons who are not seeking work because they believe the prospects of finding it are extremely poor—are not counted as unemployed or as part of the labour force.

[DuaneBidoux]

44. You're "living standard" will be a bit lower, your house might be

a bit smaller. You might only be able to afford 2 television sets instead of a television set in every room.

That kind of stuff. On the other hand, they're not currently going FUCKING INSANE-a big advantage in my books.

[ibegurpard]

48. Canada and the U.S. are inextricably linked

economically and culturally. We also share an enormous, unguarded open border. If things get as bad here as some of us fear, Canada isn't going to be safe. Their armed forces are a formality.

[dreamcollector]

49. Major Drawbacks

You will still get CNN and we are getting Fox. Otherwise life is bliss. And our standard of living is higher. Doctors are better paid in the U.S but teachers have affluent lifestyle compared to U.S. and so on. Our taxes go to health care and goodies rather than to wars,weapons and imperial conquest.Our taxes are not that high anyway that's a vicious rumour. Our rich are definitely not as rich or our poor as poor. We have few Fundies and our Yahoos are harmless. (Avoid Alberta.)Don't even hesitate to move here. See you in Tim Hortons, eh?

[Willy Lee]

56. Their sense of humor is a little more reserved than ours. nt