Marines Step In It

[SoDesuKa]

The Marines have stepped in it, big time. They have to explain to the world why this troop didn't even pause. Does this casual killing reflect an absence of concern for the lives of Arabs? Arabs think so!

Every Marine in Iraq knows that their commanders have cranked them up to do just what this guy did. If he gets sent to Leavenworth - a likely outcome - the possibility of similar punishment hangs over all of them.

In the end, a fighting force needs political legitimacy. The Marines don't have that. All they've got behind them is administration assurances that something good will come of this. That won't be enough to keep this Marine out of Leavenworth. If Bush has a "mandate" it's pretty puny.

[Name removed]

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[mhr]

3. Did You Ever Consider That The Insurgents Are Trying To Liberate Their

Country of the US Marines.

Seems like a no win situation for both sides all caused by one idiot called Bush.

[SeattleArmy]

57. Please see my original reply to this message...

The insurgency has been falsely romanticized by those who dislike the U.S. military and/or detest Bush. Go ahead and hate Bush the politician all you want. The insurgency is bad news, and that would be true no matter who was in the Oval Office. Our fighting troops in Iraq don't need our smug criticism. They need to know that their friends and family back home are supporting them as they've been asked to do a terribly thankless job fighting a very nasty enemy which kills/terrorizes Iraqis themselves even more than they target Americans or the Coalition.

[immoderate]

71. The insurgency was predicted before the war.

Bush, the idiot, ignored the warnings. Another politician would have known invasion of Iraq would create a magnet for resistance.

We got what he deserves.

--IMM

[datasuspect]

73. they are patriots

not insurgents

[ConservativeDemocrat]

84. They are all over the map

Sure, some are patriots. Others are Saddam loyalists who see nothing wrong with that dictator's crimes. Others are outright criminals looking to make cash. And others are foreign jihadists coming in because they consider it their holy duty to kill infidels.

The original poster was right. Far too many people in the D.U. are romanticizing the insurgency simply out of hatred for the Commander In Chief.

But the truth is that no combattant is innocent in war. Nobody.

- C.D.

[datasuspect]

89. they are patriots

not insurgents

and if they hail from other locations, then so be it, they are helping their muslim brothers in jihad against the u.s. invaders.

i look it at from their perspective and i look at it from ours.

plain and simple: we are wrong. yes, the united states CAN be wrong and immoral. it really is true that we more often than not have had less than honorable motivations and intentions as a country, especially where it concerns our interactions with people who are darker than white. we invaded a country that did not attack us. there was no terrorist threat in iraq and there was far more terrorism worldwide in the 70s and 80s than there has been since 2001 (including september 11).

so, if these guys want to pick up and fight the raw naked aggression of our country, then so be it.

we stirred up this hornet's nest, but it seems that we as a country like getting stung.

[Gyre]

111. I couldn't have said it better!

But I believe in using caps. :)

Gyre

[rocktivity]

173. Are you demonizing the insugency

because you fear that hating Bush must also mean that you hate the troops? They're just as much victims of the Bush empire's greed and arrogance as the Iraqis are.

:headbang:
rocknation

[White Feather]

136. The Marines.......

are patriots too.

Walt

[mike_c]

145. that may be, but they're engaged in a deliberate war...

...of aggresion, a war crime by definition. Do you give a pass to someone who robs a bank and kills innocents in the process, just because he's coincidentally "patriotic?"

[White Feather]

156. Posted by mike_c ...

"that may be, but they're engaged in a deliberate war..."

...of aggresion, a war crime by definition. Do you give a pass to someone who robs a bank and kills innocents in the process, just because he's coincidentally "patriotic?"

If you can show that the Marines and the rest of the military are in Iraq on the basis of unlawful orders, then do so. Otherwise, the are right where they are supposed to be and doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.

Walt

[mike_c]

191. Nuremberg defined wars of aggression as crimes against...

...humanity. Likewise, the Geneva Conventions prohibit the abuse of civilians under occupation and POWs hors de combat. The Germans invading Poland and Czechoslovakia also followed orders "lawful" within the national context in which they were given. The U.S. military is certainly NOT "right where they are supposed to be and doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing."

[r3verberate]

199. In their opinion, the Soldiers are risking their lives ..

.. over there so that there's no risk to lives over here.

Regardless of how anyone feels as to the legitimacy of the Iraq War, you have to note the noble intentions of the soldiers.

Support the soldiers, they are family, friends, and neighbors. They are Americans.

[RPM]

169. perhaps, but its head (*) isnt

and a fish rots from the head

[mhr]

78. I Am Not Backing An Illegal War Sold To The American Public

On false premises.

[White Feather]

137. Posted by mhr

"I Am Not Backing An Illegal War Sold To The American Public

On false premises."



What has that got to do with our troops in the field?

Walt

[mhr]

186. Well If You Cannot Figure That Out Then You Need A Brain Infusion!

eom

[Name removed]

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[jayfish]

148. Your Right ,It's Hard Work...

felling sorry for someone who has had their job disappear, their possessions looted, their home destroyed and their family killed by us, only to see their wounded comrades executed and their captured ones tortured and humiliated. Tough stuff indeed :eyes:

Jay

[RetroLounge]

177. Jonny Jihad?

Gee, from what forum did you pick up that cute term...

RL

[Son of the Gun]

179. I picked it up in

The U.S Army Airborne Infantry.

[Name removed]

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[Son of the Gun]

180. was uh,

this directed at me? Im new here.

[RPM]

181. nope

No, sir - it was not.

It was directed at SeattleArmy's post (#57) in response to you.

But while i have you here.... just kidding.

I agree with you 100%

BTW - Welcome to DU!!!

[joedemo]

138. yes

and I decided that wasn't the case. The "insurgents" apparently are former Baathists that want to re-establish the oppression of the Shia.

[Name removed]

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[Irishladdie]

152. Exactly...

The US Marines are at war whether we like it or not. They are being killed and mamimed. Our boys. Bottom line. This man who shot this insurgent(if that was what he was) is at war. It is legal to kill during combat, right?

Bush has caused this mess, don't blame the troops. Period. They are children. Kids!

[SoDesuKa]

4. Get Used to It

This incident is just the tip of the iceberg. Other, even more ghastly incidents are on videotape waiting to get smuggled out. Our troops are committing the atrocities they were cranked up to commit, and the world will see it.

There's no leeway because there's no justification for any of it. We're not "liberating" the Iraqis from anything. We're just pounding the nationalists into submission, just as we tried to do in Vietnam.

By the way, what do you know about war? I've been in one. Have you?

[Name removed]

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[DrZeeLit]

69. I heard the mother of a National Guard member say...

1. It was not an injured man; he had a bomb.
2. They deserve what they get.
3. The media should not be allowed to film.
4. If the media do film, it should be confiscated.
5. It's the media's fault.

So, I sat there with my hair in foils (yes, I'm not a natural blonde, but I digress). And I thought, "do I say anything?"

I decided not to say anything. She is distraught because her son is going to Iraq in January. She previously mentioned watching Fox news, so I figure she is woefully misinformed. And I love my hairdresser and didn't want to put her on the spot with her client.

My husband and I talked about it. He said that I could have said the following:

What if it was Arab t.v. and they had your son and he was injured? And they put a gun to his head and killed him, then showed this around the world. Would you be angry that they killed an injured man, or mad at the media for showing it? Or...what would you feel, I'd like to know.

Maybe we need quiet discussions in small groups?
I just don't know any more.
My fellow Americans are really scaring me.
When I become speechless -- trust me -- it's BAD out there.

[wtmusic]

72. people get very defensive when they are afraid

trying to put them in others' shoes doesn't seem to get very far. I don't know why.

[bloom]

116. it's sad

there is no talking sense about it - esp. to mothers in denial.


I'm sad for our whole country.


I just finished rereading 1984. The people who support the war remind me of the blind "party" followers. However someone wants to write the news or rewrite is OK by them. Rah, rah, sis boom bah. We are the best. Go Marines Go. Drink beer. Watch football. :beer: :eyes: :cry:

[Malingerer]

120. It's hard to say....

That marine was in an incredibly tense combat situation. Being shot at... And it is true that the insurgents have been known to rig wounded and dead bodies with explosives. That doesn't give anyone the right to kill indiscriminately of course. But it is hard to say how one would react if not in that position. If I thought someone was going to set off a grenade and kill me..... I'd try to stop him too. But I'd not murder and unarmed prisoner. I don't think this marine knew if the guy was armed or not. Either way....sucky situation. I wish there were an easy solution.

[datasuspect]

74. boy oh boy

i have a whole collection of "soldiers home videos" culled from the iraq genocide.

they are readily available on the internet

[UL_Approved]

130. I want links

I'm going around trying to get video footage and such for an archive. Any material would be greatly appreciated.

[datasuspect]

140. advice

not links

download a p2p client, configure your firewall correctly, make sure you share as much as you take, and be creative with search criteria.

sometimes it takes awhile, but you can find all sorts of good stuff.

[Ganja Ninja]

5. Thanks for giving us the Rush/Hannity talking points.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

15. Facts?

You clearly say those resistance fighters had been firing at the marines only minutes before. This is clearly a lie. Anybody who's heard and seen the tape can clearly hear the marines saying that these prisoners had been wounded and captured the previous day.

You've got a funny definition of facts.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

86. "Clearly a lie?"

It's rather strange. You must be seeing a different tape than the one that was actually made. The conversation goes as follows:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109904

A Marine says: "He's fucking faking he's dead. He's faking he's fucking dead." The Marine comes into view with his rifle shouldered. There is a rifle shot. An Iraqi leaning against a wall slumps, leaving a blood stain behind. According to CNN, another Marine says, "Well, he's dead now."

The insurgents are using every trick in the book to try and get the Marines to drop their guard. This includes disguising themselves in Iraqi uniforms and faking being dead so they can try suicide attacks.

In that sort of environment, the Marine has no particular responsibility to secure captives. They're allowed to think of their own safety first.

I'm getting tired of saying this, but I guess I have to once again: it is perfectly reasonable to be upset at Bush for getting our Troops into a bloody counterproductive, war. It is unreasonable to attack the troops for carrying out their orders as best they can.

- C.D.

[DrWeird]

91. Oh for christ's sake.

The clear lie which I discussed which you clearly didn't see because the message was deleted is his claim that the prisoner who had been shot had been fighting the marine minutes before. In fact, the man had been taken prisoner the previous day. Figure out what you're talking about before shooting off at the mouth.

"I'm getting tired of saying this, but I guess I have to once again: it is perfectly reasonable to be upset at Bush for getting our Troops into a bloody counterproductive, war. It is unreasonable to attack the troops for carrying out their orders as best they can."

Bullshit. It's the moral responsibility of every decent human and person who supports the troops to uphold and defend the Geneva Conventions. You can't say you support the troops then apologize for war crimes.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

97. It's not a war crime...

...when it is an established tactic of an enemy to fake surrender in order to attempt a suicide attack. (In fact, this sort of thing used to happen in WW2 with Japanese soldiers too, and the Marines took a similar approach to stopping it.)

It only becomes a war crime when a soldier obviously knows that he is in no danger, and kills anyway. The kidnapping/murders of innocents by the insurgents qualify, for instance.

I also need to point out, DrWierd, that the Geneva Convention only describes two classes of protected individuals - noncombatants (e.g. civilians) and uniformed soldiers who can be identified at a distance. But assassins/guerrillas dressed as civilians? - sorry, they're not protected. The reason is obvious: the Geneva Conventions were not created for the safety of insurgents, they were created for the safety of civilians. Combatants who blur the line invite reprisals against the civilian populations, so they get no protection.

This has been true for a long time. The Nazis, for instance, were accused of many war crimes. But the one thing they were never attacked over was their penchant for lining up captured French resistance fighters against the wall and shooting them. Why? Because it was perfectly legal for them to do so.

- C.D.

[wtmusic]

103. You are speaking quite eloquently out of your ass

"Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

Not a word about being in uniform, at a distance, blah blah blah. You are regurgitating Rumsfeld-speak.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

[ConservativeDemocrat]

157. What part of "no active part in the hostilities" don't you understand?

I really should alert this, but instead I'll reply.

You shoot at a soldier. He shoots back. You get hit. Now, even if you are incapable of further fighting, you are not suddenly someone who can't be attacked. You are still a target. You have taken an active part in the hostilities.

Oh, and "active part" doesn't just mean firing weapons either. If you are doing nothing more than resupplying your side with ammo, you are still a target.

> Not a word about being in uniform, at a distance, blah blah blah. You are regurgitating Rumsfeld-speak.

You can find the "Rumsfeld-speak" right down under Article 4 in the link you provided:

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

If you engage in hostilities and do NOT qualify as a member of the legally protected POW class, you are considered subject to the capturing nations/army's laws. If, for example, they have a law against shooting their soldiers in the back, and impose an instant and immediate death penalty to anyone who does -- well tough luck, buddy -- you should have been wearing a uniform.

- ConservativeDemocrat, Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[wtmusic]

172. Past vs. present tense

'Now, even if you are incapable of further fighting, you are not suddenly someone who can't be attacked.'

Yes, unfortunately you are. The rule deals with 'persons taking no active part in the hostilities'. 'Taking'.

There is a limit to the number of obvious distinctions like this I will be 'taking' the time to point out. :eyes:

[ConservativeDemocrat]

188. You aren't a lawyer, much less a judge...

Your interpretation of the law would mean that it is illegal for anyone to be attacked ever, because at the moment a soldier is attacked, they are not "engaged in hostilities". You know, present vs future tense.

Now maybe "outlawing war" might be a good idea, if it could ever be actually accomplished, but the framers of the Geneva Convention were more realistic than that. And because of that, the phrase "engaged in hostilities" has always been very broadly interpreted by military courts of law and tribunals worldwide. The protections kick in only when it is patently obvious to absolutely everyone that the POW is actually a Prisoner and no danger to anyone. A wounded enemy left unguarded for 24 hours in a freefire zone where there are thousands of hidden weapons doesn't apply. At least, not legally.

- C.D.

p.s. You remind me of an anti-tax wingnut I used to know. He used to grab legal phrases out of law books, apply his own anti-tax interpretations to them, and then pretend that the President, Congress, and Courts were all "breaking the law". All I can say to you is what I said to him - it doesn't work that way. :eyes:

[wtmusic]

189. 'patently obvious to absolutely everyone' -- is that your phrase?

This is actually very funny -- you have no support for that statement and therefore no basis for it, outside of your own beliefs.

There is no way that a military court would condone shooting an unarmed, wounded prisoner. No way. The deeper you get, the sillier you sound.

Give it up.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

190. Well, we'll see when the charges are brought...

...which, of course, they won't be.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community.

p.s. One of the things I used to say to my wingnut friend is "That's a very fine argument you've stitched together there. Exactly what court are you going to bring it to?". The answer was usually that he would post the whole thing to alt.libertarian.really-really-divorced-from-reality so all his friends could praise it. Heh. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[White Feather]

139. Dr. Weird Says:

"Bullshit. It's the moral responsibility of every decent human and person who supports the troops to uphold and defend the Geneva Conventions. You can't say you support the troops then apologize for war crimes."


If this Iraqi were playing dead, the Marine had at least a defensible idea that it might be a ruse to help kill that Marine or his buddies. The day previously a Marine in this same unit was killed by a booby trapped body. You don't know if this Iraqi might have been concealing a grenade or a remote control detonator and was just waiting for enough Marines to get close enough to make it worth detonating. I don't know that either. But this Marine might have had a reasonable suspicion and a split second to act.

I think you need to give the benefit of the doubt to our Marines, not the insurgents.

This has nothing to do with whether the war is just or unjust, or stupid or counter productive. That Marine was given lawful orders that required him to be in Iraq and in that situation. He deserves a hell of a lot credit.

If you had been standing six feet from a person who might have a grenade or remote control detonator, and who appeared to be feigning death, you might have shot him too.



Walt

[jayfish]

143. Another Poster With No Factual Information.

The men in the mosque were wounded the previous day. Their weapons were taken and they were left by US troops. On the video, the squad involved in the shooting acknowledges that they are aware of these facts.
What credit does he deserve?

Jay

[ConservativeDemocrat]

165. The problem is that they weren't secured

And by "secured" I mean placed in a position in which it is obvious that they were true prisoners - that is, incapable of sneaking off to one of the ubiquitous weapons caches hidden around the city.

This is, of course, a big screwup by the U.S. troops. However, to give them a little "credit" - they do have the excuse of being distracted. Bullets flying at you will do that.

These types of things do happen routinely in war zones. As do prisoner escapes, even when the prisoner is wounded.

- C.D.

[White Feather]

175. The Way I Understand it...

The way I understand it, these insurgents were disarmed the previous day, given medical care and then encountered by this second Marine unit.

This individual could have done anything in that time. He could have had a grenade in his clothing, or been concealing something else. Since the Marine thought this person was "playing dead" the person could have had hostile intent. It's easy to make a case of self defense, and I hope that is what happens.

Walt

[barb162]

196. beside that, 4 other things

1.we gave medical care which is a lot more than I can say for insurgents who take hostages...hacking heads off for propaganda

2.the soldier had to make a split second decision

3.it was clear from the soldier's voice he wasn't some sociopath laughing "I'm gonna shoot this ragread" The soldier was scared and I believe it was self defense

4.the soldier has due process rights under the US Constitution and is innocent until proven guilty. He is not a "criminal" or a "murderer" until the courts determine so. I find it so strange that a liberal board is acting like a f--king kangeroo court

[gulfcoastliberal]

205. Point of order: when you join the service you lose constitutional rights

you are governed by the UCMJ.

[Politicub]

36. You have troulbe distinguising between fact and opinion

It happens. If your only sources for information are Fox News, Hannity and drudge, that tends to happen.

[MnFats]

17. precisely.

and i could be wrong....but i do recall reading an account that indicated it wasn't clear these insurgents had battled the marines in that mosque. But it was likely they had been there a while.

an account I read also said that a Marine had been wounded, not shot in the forehead, by a booby-trap, not shot.

some embellishment may be going on, yes?


It is true that the insurgents have booby-trapped some of their dead. All the more reason to exercise caution when approaching dead and wounded enemies. Suppose the marine plugs the guy and sets off a large explosive, killing all around him?

Also, the wounded iraqi might have valuable information. More reason to keep him alive. Although our treatment of prisoners to date has not made it any easier for iraqis to consider surrendering.


Finally: I think nothing will happen to the man who shot the guy. It is a little like a close call with cop shootings -- he saw a quick hand movement, a metallic object in his hand -- and felt he had to protect himself. That's how they'll play it, along with a lot of rhetoric like treasonous above.

also...the guy was only the one unfortunate to be taped killing someone unarmed, on the ground. Does anyone else doubt this has happened, perhaps frequently?

And yeah, that's war. incidents like this happen in all wars. Even some of the best soldiers, after the stress and heartbreak of seeing comrades killed, develop a blood lust. It's not just americans, either.

That's why we should not be so GODDAMN quick to go to war and put our 18-, 19- and 20-year=-old CHILDREN under the massive stress of bloody combat and expect them to remain moral people.

[jayfish]

These Guys Just Don't Quit.

Last night some Freepaziod claimed that the booby trapped body, from the previous day, actually killed the shooters buddy. I'm waiting for someone to claim the poor Marine thought it was al-Zarqawi himself laying there on the floor.

Jay

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[el_gato]

16. Is that the best you got?

Ohhhh, he said France!

[DrWeird]

21. That's the France in the EU you know.

As opposed to the France in Latin America.

:eyes:

[wtmusic]

11. Only minutes before...

What a difference a couple of minutes make. One is battle, the other is a war crime. Spout off when you can tell the difference.

[Name removed]

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[wtmusic]

18. Executing a POW is a war crime

The injured Iraqi was unarmed and not a threat. *Civilized people* have decided that executing POW's, torture, and killing innocent civilians (among other things) are not allowed--no matter what. Read the Third Geneva Convention, if it's not too quaint for you.

[Name removed]

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[wtmusic]

33. I guess for the Iraqi staying in one place for too long was very bad

The guy was not a threat. The Marine aced him in cold blood. End of story.

[ilovenicepeople]

93. Why is it that we only hear about the boobie trapped bodies,

a day after this video came out?Was it redundent before the outrage,or not thought up as an excuse for the unexcuseable.People that don't drink koolaid want to know.

[wtmusic]

101. xlnt point

and if you would just drink up you wouldn't have to worry about it

[jayfish]

44. Oh, I Guess You Didn't Know...

that the previous squad swept for and removed all weapons the day before. You certainly didn't know anything about that. Matter of fact you are the least informed defender I have seen on this argument. I can respect people who disagree with me on philosophical arguments when we are working from the same set of facts. You however...

Jay

[NCN007]

104. The day before

Alot can happen in a day.

[jayfish]

125. Man Those Insurgents...

must be alot better than the government is letting on huh? I mean to re-take that mosque after US forces had already cleared the area.

Jay

[Name removed]

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[wtmusic]

42. Don't be a fool yourself

I am amazed we are having this discussion.

What would I do? I wouldn't assume the man was a threat because I saw him breathing. Is that what 'playing dead' is? Maybe he was just 'almost dead'?

Y'know, war is a risky thing. Just because others don't play by the rules doesn't mean you don't have to. That's the reason we're fucking OVER there, because Saddam didn't play by the rules so Bush decided he didn't have to either.

Honor and/or sacrifice--it's about *always* doing the right thing, even if it puts you in jeopardy. That is what this government and this military are losing, and it will come back to us tenfold.

[el_gato]

48. Well, I wouldn't be over there killing for Halliburton, Exxon, Etc.

So I would never be in that situation.

[livinginphotographs]

52. So, by your logic...

(if the "insurgent" actually was holding a grenade and waiting to detonate it), the best way to defuse an explosive is by walking right up to it and riddling it with bullets.

You'd have a real short career on a bomb squad with that kind of attitude.

[jayfish]

53. Sweet, Another Opportunity To Have My Question Answered.

If wounded Iraqis are now a threat, why don't we just kill all of them? I have a feeling that based on your previous "thoughts" on the topic, you will say we should.

jay

[lawladyprof]

75. If injured Iraqis are a threat when they are not moving, and, of course,

are a threat if they are moving, then the Marines are justified in shooting all of them and there no longer is a need for the don't shoot POW's rule.

[jayfish]

77. Sorry To Ask...

but is that a sarcastic reply? I have a feeling it is. Please prove my hunch correct.

Jay

[wtmusic]

100. I heard that "anything that's moving can be shot"

as long as it's done by Our Marines.

[Selwynn]

23. Do you know that a moral wrong is a moral wrong?

Just checking.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

31. What's immoral...

is killing helpless, wounded old men and then pretending in retrospect that it was a good thing.

But I'm sure you already no that and decided to be immoral anyway.

[Selwynn]

32. At any cost? Yup.

All of our troops could be a lot more "safe" if we must nuked Fallujah. That doesn't make it right.

You be as safe as you can, without becoming a war criminal. Cross that line, and pay the price.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[DrWeird]

38. If that's your opinion, OK.

Just don't start crying when they execute American POWs.

[Selwynn]

40. No fucking kidding.

[Selwynn]

41. Actually "War" is not just "War"

There are rules of international law. And there have always been rules of moral conscience. Again, that is why though it might make our troops "safer" to nuke Iraq, that doesn't make it a morally acceptable choice.

If someone said "oh what the hell, war is war, let's nuke em" that justification for the decision is insufficient, and he (or she) must be held accountable.

[wtmusic]

47. y'know Selwynn

sometimes I wonder if elevating my blood pressure on these people is worth it

the alternative is letting this bullshit ride.

[Politicub]

34. Enlighten us oh great genius of war

Color me stupid, but I can see the perspective of the "insurgents." Iraqis didn't ask for this liberation. By some estimates, more than 100,000 Iraqis have been been given the ultimate liberation -- from their lives.

Yes, I guess I don't understand the nuances of war. Please do enlighten those of us who don't possess your keen intellect and understanding of global events.

It sounds to be like you've learned of war from a comic book. Booby trapped bodies! Mutilated guy playing dead!

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Selwynn]

43. "their own kind" -- dude, wtf?

[Selwynn]

45. I hope that was your fucking ticket out of here. I will not tolerate that

..racist bullshit language.

[wtmusic]

51. tombstoned

his/her name was just a little too apt

[Politicub]

67. His reply to my post was deleted before I read it

What did the chickenshit say?

[Selwynn]

87. You don't want to know.

Suffice it to say that the phrase "their kind" came up when refering to Iraqis.

[DrWeird]

46. Speaking of ignorance...

You continue to ignore that critical flaw in your own OP. Seems you haven't even seen the video.

You've done nothing since you came hear but repeat Republican propaganda. Saddam gassed his own people. Iraq has a peaceful democratic government now.

You're so profoundly ignorant about even the basic facts it's astonishing. The war is lost.

The war is lost. All we're doing now is circling the drain because people like you want a "defeat with honor." And the whole time you're just digging yourself a deeper hole.

100,000 Iraqi civilians are dead. Men, women, children. 1200+ Americans, who you falsely claim to support are dead. And it's all for no good reason. And it's directly the fault of people like you.

[tryn2getit]

81. You do know, don't you....

...that many of these "insurgents" are not Iraqis?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

98. Yep

And the reason we're there is to liberate them, and it's all part of the War on Terrorism, and all Muslims are crazy, and there really is a tooth fairy.

Got it.

[Politicub]

102. No, 100% of them are Iraqis

Every single one. You know its true. Don't deny the truth.

I was praying and God told me that. So take it up with the man upstairs, not me.

[TwentyFive]

2. Arabs don't forget - it not in their culture. It reminds me of the joke..

Two Arabs were sitting. One Arab says to the other, "Do you remember that guy who insulted me 23 years ago? Well, I just killed him yesterday."

And then, the other Arab replies, "Why so fast?"

[wtmusic]

9. Not a snowball's chance in hell he'll do time

Covarrubias walked after executing an Iraqi and admitting to it

[White Feather]

176. Good

What this Marine did, based on what I have heard, was self defense.

Walt

[wtmusic]

183. Yeah, that Iraqi was breathing

obviously up to no good :eyes:

[White Feather]

184. Posted by wtmusic

Yeah, that Iraqi was breathing"

obviously up to no good :eyes:

I hate to say I am reminded of what General Sherman said about good Indians.

This Marine was acting in self defense, or at least he can claim with validity that he was.

Walt

[wtmusic]

185. And your point is

that the only good Iraqi is a dead one?

Or is it that if an 'insurgent' comes across an unarmed, wounded Marine -- he can finish him off and be justified?

Or is it that execution of prisoners of war is OK?

Please clarify.

[DS1]

22. Wouldn't it be worse if he ~did~ pause?

That's my only comment on the thread.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[samtob]

28. A humans rights advocate stated he did pause, 3 seconds

therefore it was not an act of self defense. This man stated that three second pause, was the reason he should be punished. I am with you, this is my only post on this subject.

[MsTryska]

29. I'm sorry but i'm having a tough time getting riled up

about the marine.


first off, i don't think we should be in this war.

secondly i think the insurgents ahve every right to fight back. what we do, as a people if aliens invaded the US? i would hope most of us would butch up and do the needful.

thirdly, i really don't think the soldier did anythign wrong. if i was doing street to street combat (and i'm a female and have never bene in war), i'm guessing i'd have shot the dude too.


it's like blaming lindy england for abu ghraib. i think it's sorta sick that the media has turned on this one guy, when he's most likely following orders. (altho i think lyndie was pretty disgusting but that's a seperate point)

[Minstrel Boy]

49. I think you may be mistaken about the incident in question.

You wrote "if i was doing street to street combat (and i'm a female and have never bene in war), i'm guessing i'd have shot the dude too."

There was an earlier incident of a marine in street combat, apparently shooting a wounded Iraqi in an alley.

But this is a marine in a mosque shooting an unarmed, prostrate, wounded Iraqi in cold blood.

[MsTryska]

54. The one they've been running video of?

was the mosque not on a street?


i suppose i'd have some qualms about killing someone on religious ground, however a mosque is the most likely place for an insurgent to be hiding. and if i'm in combat, and i'm expecting to be shot, i'm going to shoot first ask questions later.

at that point it's a matter of survival.

[Minstrel Boy]

But they were not hiding.

They had already been disarmed by an earlier patrol. They were wounded men seeking shelter. They were lying on the floor, right out in the open.

"Shoot first and ask questions later"? :shrug:

[MsTryska]

64. Yup.

did the second patrol of marines know that the first patrol had doen this?

[jayfish]

65. Yes,...

the second group says as much on the tape.

Jay

[MsTryska]

66. i see.

either way, i can't necessarily hold him int he wrong.


it might be wrong in hindsight, but the heat of battle is soemthing else entirely.

[jayfish]

76. So Are We Talking About...

manslaughter then? Cause that excuse sounds mighty familiar. You know, like when a spouse catches another spouse in an act of infidelity and kills because of it. Your coming along though.

Jay

[MsTryska]

149. I'm not sure what the point is you are trying to make.....

with the manslaughter thing and the spouses.



i'm just syaing, war is for killing. it's what soldiers do.


to pick one instance out, of a soldier killing an unarmed man of the appropriate age, whilst that man is playing possum, in a war where insurgents play possum and then kill you, the soldier - i just don't see it as that big of a misstep. as i said, were i in the same situation, i may have done the same thing.


it's easy to intellectualize from your comfy chair in front of a computer, but when you're in battle and it's kill or be killed, it's a whole different scenario. hell my grandfather used dead bodies as cover when he was fighting in Burma. and shot from under them too. I can't remember if that was WWII or Korea.


i think i would be more taken aback if it was a kid or a woman (altho, allegedly they are part of the insurgency too).


either way, i find it silly that we're up in arms about one soldier, killing a grown man in a situation that's hazy as opposed to being up in arms about these smartbombs killing children in hospitals.


it's a grand redirect by the media, and you're buying into it.

[jayfish]

150. There It Is Again,...

the I'm not there so I don't get it defense. Listen, thats what humans do, we judge from our comfy chairs every day. Whats next, only convicted murderers should sit on murder-trial juries? Comparing this blight to WWII and/or Korea is an insult to every soldier who fought and died in those two conflicts. Have we not evolved in the last 60 years?

Jay

[MsTryska]

151. A soldier is a soldier is a soldier....

i'm finding it hard to believe you have any military experience if you are unable to separate the act of soldiering from the War at large.

soldiers kill, when commanded to do so and die if they make a mistake. it's what they are trained to do, it's what they are paid to do and it's their job description.

they're not the people you have a beef with - the people you have a beef with are the ones who start the damn wars int he first place.


don't get distracted.

[jayfish]

160. I Have A Beef With Both...

And I think I see your point now. May I ask, are you willing to let the shooter completely off the hook?

Jay

[MsTryska]

162. No. I'm not.

if he's in violation of geneva conventions, he need to be court-martialed.


my point tho, is that we're fixating on this one guy when there's a whole mess of evil, we're getitng distracted from.


Same thing with Abu graib and Lyndie England. We spent so much time fixating on the one chick in every picture, and everything else gets swept under the rug.


i think she's disgusting for going along with the torture and abuse, and i believe she should be held responsible for her actions, but as soemone said lower down, it's a symptom of a greater illness.

same with this marine.

we need more root cause analysis, less hysteria.

[jayfish]

163. Point Taken.

My last thought would be that it's hard to dig-up the roots without the shovel that "hysteria" provides.

Jay

[MsTryska]

167. Yeah.....I just question the hysteria-makers

ie the media.


notice that this particular instance didn't come from the left-wing world. (and oyu have to admit, our sources jump on soemthing hinky a good week or two before the rest of the press gets to it).

this was a simultaneous release from all the major media outlets, with none other than fox taking it to the very last drop (72 hours our i think?) 3 if not 4 newscycles.

i just don't trust it, and i see it as a misdirect - and a case of setting up the messenger (the marine) to get shot, as it were.

[tryn2getit]

82. A marine in a mosque shooting an unarmed, prostrate, ...

wounded "insurgent" (you don't know that he was an Iraqi...many of the "insurgents aren't)..who is the same enemy that before his being injured, was shooting at other marines?

Do you believe the "insurgent" was in there baking cookies? Of course not, he was using the mosque as cover while trying to kill our marines.

Do you believe that this "insurgent" never fired on a coalition member unless he checked to see if the guy was going to shoot him first?

Do you believe that it's okay for insurgents to use a mosque as a base for their violence and to shoot from...but it's suddenly wrong for a marine to shoot the enemy there?

[DrWeird]

88. Ignorance is bliss.

He wasn't using the mosque as cover to shoot at marines. The marines had wounded, disarmed, and captured the man the previous day. Then instead of taking him to hospital as required under Geneva conventions, they stuck him in the mosque as a makeshift prison, or simply left him to die. Regardless, more than one war crime was committed.

You people need to get your facts straight.

[barb162]

197. the soldiers gave medical treatment which is GC required but it

was probably a little on the difficult side to get the person to a hospital, ummm, what with a few bullets flying and all.

[wtmusic]

96. oh shit..another talk radio listener

Go read Geneva 3 and then come back with an intelligent opinion about rules of warfare.

Actually, 'our marines' are over there trying to kill them. Remember? That's how this whole mess started.

[SeattleArmy]

50. Don't hold our Marines to impossible standards!

I'm an Army Reservist so I know a thing or two about the military, and I also know a thing or two about how our troops in Iraq are trained. A few of you seem to enjoy thinking that our fighting men and women in Iraq are a bunch of gun-happy bloodthirsty barbarians. Likewise, a few of you seem to cling to the idea that the insurgents are the equivalent of America's 18th century Minutemen, as Michael Moore so famously asserted. Both pictures are dead wrong. Our troops are going out of their way to avoid wanton killing. They risk life and limb every day, using tremendous restraint, and I am saddened that some people are so quick to pile on the blame wagon when an insurgent gets shot down. The truth of the matter is that the insurgency is not a home-grown nationalist force of patriotic idealists. The insurgency is a hodge-podge of bitter-end Saddamites, former Baathists, foreign terrorist wannabes, and assorted Islamist jihadists. The torture dungeons of Fallujah are proof enough that the "freedom fighters" are doing anything but fighting for freedom. Maybe they fight for their freedom to oppress and terrorize others? But certainly they are not a populist movement. To believe otherwise is to be intentionally obtuse. The longer the Coalition is in Iraq the more evidence mounts that the insurgency is bad, bad, bad news. Left to their own devices, the insurgents would turn Iraq into ten times the violent bloodbath it already is as they battled with eachother gangland-style for control while simultaneously terrorizing the common folk; as happened in Fallujah!

[wtmusic]

55. I have some swamp land in FL for you

'freedom fighters', 'insurgents', 'terrorizing the commonfolk', 'former Baathists', you just buy right in don't you...learned all about it on Fox News?

[SeattleArmy]

58. Who is buying what, my friend?

Uhhh... Fox News? I don't even watch cable or TV news at all, my friend. Look, you don't have to like Bush or like the Republicans, but the fact of the matter is we're in Iraq, and we're not getting out any time soon, and the Coalition troops are the only thing standing between a struggling consensual government and complete, totaly, bloody chaos. And no, life was not better under Saddam. How many more old mass graves have to be found in order to prove that?

[DrWeird]

59. LOL.

Yes. If it wasn't for the "coalition" (snarf) there would be absolute bloody chaos (guffaw).

Mass graves? How many of those mass graves were filled with Iraqis killed by Americans? How many can we fill now?

Funny. You just started posting and you've swallowed the same ridiculous bullshit the last guy did.

[wtmusic]

63. Seriously, I'd be very curious to know where you get your news

Whatever it is, here are a few points they haven't managed to cover yet:

1) the 'commonfolk' are the ones shooting at us
2) we invaded their country illegally and they are struggling to defend themselves
3) there already *is* total bloody chaos
4) Let's talk mass graves for a moment. Here's one of Saddam's with 250-300 bodies in it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/2785095.stm

How many mass graves do you think the 100K bodies we've provided would fill?
5) Coaltition? What coalition? The US, UK, and Eritrea? The coalition is a sham created when the US couldn't pull together a true coalition at the UN.

If you can't see the obvious, I can't help you.

[Djinn]

107. LOL

"a struggling consensual government"

would that be the highly unpopular and unelected bloke with long term ties to the CIA?

As for life under Saddam, in less than two years we've killed and estimated 100,000 civilians - Saddam managed in 30 years to kill roughly 250,000 and that's a high end estimate by RIGHTWING sources - if the US stays as long as Saddam did you'd be looking at nearly 3 million deaths.

[tuckessee]

127. You might be gettin' outta Iraq sooner....

....than you think.

How long the US stays in Iraq is not only dependent on American stubborness & bloodthirst.

The Iraqis also have some say in the matter and after the American "victory" of Fallujah the locals are carrying a little extra clout.

When the US finally faces a simultaneous or coordinated Shia-Sunni uprising it'll look Saigon '75 on steroids.

Better have your bug-out bag ready if you happen to be over there then.

[DrWeird]

56. The facts disagree with you.

This marine didn't go out of his way to avoid wanton killing. He's a wanton killer.

The insurgents aren't former Sadaam loyalists, they're people taking up arms because American troops killed their sons and raped their daughters. The "patriot" analogy is apt.

Furthermore, all this "war crimes are part of the game, it's what marines do" bullshit isn't exactly respectful to marines who don't commit war crimes, is it?

[White Feather]

60. Dr. Weird Says:

"This marine didn't go out of his way to avoid wanton killing. He's a wanton killer.

The insurgents aren't former Sadaam loyalists, they're people taking up arms because American troops killed their sons and raped their daughters. The "patriot" analogy is apt.

Furthermore, all this "war crimes are part of the game, it's what marines do" bullshit isn't exactly respectful to marines who don't commit war crimes, is it?"

You don't know the situation this Marine faced. Your comments are ludicrous.

It's no wonder people in the Red states think there is a dichotomy between Red and Blue when some people won't support our troops in combat.

Walt

[DrWeird]

61. Actually, yeah, I saw it.

He shot the guy in cold blood. Could have been a scene from Schindler's List.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

70. And neither do you know

what situation the Marine faced. Every indication, from the video, is that it was a war crime.

If people in red states think war crimes are OK, start your own country. That's not what America is about.

[jbnow]

128. I'm from a blue state

I worked hard...I hated this war from the earliest rumors. I hate it now.

My heart aches for those people and I mean the Iraqi's...a world turned to hell around them.

But it aches for the kids we have there too. What that kid did was horrible...That we have them there in that situation was horrible. That is the biggest crime.

The kid was grazed the day before, rumors of bobby traps, dangers around any corner, a hyped up kid and if that was you or I or are kid we can't say how we'd react in that second. He had no excuse and I don't mean it was OK...just he is in shoes we aren't walking in.

IF this administration needed to invade it should have been so different from the start. If we had enough soldiers to prevent all the looting and they still had jobs, hospitals water, gas, safety...it could all be different now,

But we protect the oil ministry. That is really all we protected, how insane. Not munitions, museums, factories...Too few soldiers, way too many"precision bombs" that blow up families, civilians...and we shrug. "Oh they are probably lying, but if not, things happen". (like we'd accept that in our neighborhoods if they suspected some really bad criminals were there)
More Iraqi's had some hope early but we are growing hate.

And we stick our kids in that.

So I am from a blue state and I hate that war but my heart aches for the kid that did the horor too.

[White Feather]

135. And neither do you know"

what situation the Marine faced. Every indication, from the video, is that it was a war crime."

And I repeat. There's little wonder why there is a dichotomy between Red and Blue when some people won't support our troops in the field.

If this insurgent was "playing dead", THAT in itsef could be threatening.

It's easy for you to sit in front of your keyboard and condemn Marines who have been under tremendous stress, actually wounded himself in this case, facing sleep deprivation and fatigue and needing to make split second decisions to protect themselves and their buddies.

If no wonder that people who identify themselves as "Red" have a problem with people who identify themselsves as "Blue", and it's people who won't support the troops in the field that perpetuates those problems.

Walt

[wtmusic]

159. Poor baby

Invading foreign lands with the most powerful military in the world, with the most advanced weaponry, and he can't take a prisoner? He's a wimp (it doesn't take a lot of courage to just ace him--kinda like a video game).

It's not the people who won't 'support our troops in the field' that are perpetuating the problem--it's the people with the 'my country can do no wrong' attitude, which is uncomfortably symptomatic of the early stages of fascism. I am proud to say I will never support it.

'Playing dead' could be threatening? Hmm. Well, believe it or not *civilized people* got around from all over the world after WWII (including the US) and decided that was going to no longer be acceptable. From Geneva 3:

"Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

Get used to it.

[natrat]

204. it's what america is about now

[livinginphotographs]

79. There's a difference between supporting our troops

And calling a turd a turd.

That marine is a turd.

But I guess German civilians would've been wrong for not supporting the stormtroopers during WWII, by your logic.

[bloom]

124. "It's no wonder people in the Red states think..."

I've got news for you. I live in a red state. And I think what our military (ordered by our f***ed up government) is doing is a disgrace. So don't lump me together with a bunch of war supporters.

:grr:

[barb162]

200. "raped their daughters" Speaking of facts, care to cite proof

I haven't read or heard of this

[jayfish]

62. They Weren't Left To Their Own Devices.

The Queen was removed from then nest and then the nest was smacked with a 2x4. We tried to tell you but you just wouldn't listen. Hey since you brought it up; how do the torture dungeons of, post Saddam, abu-Gharib stack up to the ones in Fallujah? I think we could make a new "reality" TV show about them. We could call it "Torture Swapping".

Jay

[ConservativeDemocrat]

90. Welcome to the DU, SeattleArmy!

And yes, you're right - we've got some pretty far out people who frequent this place. They've let their anger at the Commander In Chief over getting our troops into this mess become anger at the troops themselves. And that's wrong.

But I'd also say that the vast majority of us do support our military. We all supported Kerry, for instance, and he was very much in favor of making sure Iraq stays free of terrorist elements (or at least, as much as possible given Bush's getting us into this mess).

- C.D.

[tjwash]

92. True, as angry as we have a right to be at this corrupt administration...

...let's not vent our anger at the Marine, who did what Marines do during combat. War is ugly. It is messy, and it is dirty. It has been that way since man first fell out of the trees and sharpened a stick for a weapon.

The Marine in question had been up for several days getting shot at, and, I read in the paper, had already been injured the day before in combat, by taking a piece of shrapnel to the face. You have to remember that we have have already had soldiers getting not only killed, but having their arms and legs blown off as a result of searching enemy soldiers that had been booby trapped after they were injured and dying by members of their own fighting parties. So please, don't get all over the Marine because he was doing what Marines do in combat.

Unless someone has been in a real combat situation, they really have no idea what it is like. That mosque battle took several days of hard fighting to get to the point of what a couple of minutes of videotape showed. What it showed, was the cold hard truth of the matter, which is war is ugly, it is messy, and a lot of our boys are going to come home shell shocked, and mind fucked beyond all belief because of this.

I have a lot of friends and relatives that came home from Vietnam the same way.

[wtmusic]

95. He 'did what Marines do'

Boys will be boys. :eyes:

[wtmusic]

94. You support our military no matter what they do

(?)

[Djinn]

108. it's funny that you "supported Kerry"

because when he was speaking a few home truths about Vietnam and the war crimes committed there he (along with others who had been saying the same thing for years) were ridiculed, told they didn't know what they were talking about, told they obviously "wanted troops to die", were unpatriotic, "that's what happens in war" etc etc by people who apologised for war crimes.

Thankfully the mods are onto the later day Nazi's in our midst and they seem to be getting tombstoned pertty quickly

[Forkboy]

195. Agreeing with the tombstoned

Says a lot about you.

[barb162]

198. beside that, 4 other things

1.we gave medical care to the insurgents which is a lot more than I can say for insurgents who take hostages...their idea of medical care seems to be hacking heads off non-combatants for propaganda

2.the soldier had to make a split second decision

3.it was clear from the soldier's voice he wasn't some sociopath laughing "I'm gonna shoot this raghead" The soldier sounded scared and I give him the benefit of the doubt... believe it was self defense

4.the soldier has due process rights under the US Constitution and is innocent until proven guilty. He is not a "criminal" or a "murderer" until the courts determine so. I find it so strange that a liberal board is acting like a f--king kangeroo court.

I was listening to a guy today who had recently been in Iraq studying the situation and his take was this is basically a Sunni insurgency with al quaida types... the people who controlled Iraq under Hussein. The Kurds and Shiites are not joining the Sunni insurgents. The Kurds and Shiites couldn't give a shit if the Sunnis get screwed/killed as that's all the Sunnis did to the Kurds and Shiites for years under Saddam. His view was that the Sunnis that had the most power under Hussein want it back.

Does this mean I support the War? No. I think it is going to be years of bloodbaths as the 3 ethnic groups possibly fight each other. Also so many innocent people are being killed and their infrastructure is being destroyed with all this damned fighting

[Redleg]

80. Wow- lot's of deleted messages here. You must have hit a nerve.

I'm staying out of this one.

[Batgirl]

85. even worse, it will all have been for nothing

bleak musings from Wolcott's blog:
http://www.jameswolcott.com/


"... who fights against the weak--and the rag-tag Iraqi militias are very weak indeed--and loses, loses. He who fights against the weak and wins also loses. To kill an opponent who is much weaker than yourself is unnecessary and therefore cruel; to let that opponent kill you is unnecessary and therefore foolish. As Vietnam and countless other cases prove, no armed force however rich, however powerful, however advanced, and however well motivated is immune to this dilemma. The end result is always disintegration and defeat; if U.S. troops in Iraq have not yet started fragging their officers, the suicide rate among them is already exceptionally high. That is why the present adventure will almost certainly end as the previous one did. Namely, with the last U.S. troops fleeing the country while hanging on to their helicopters' skids."

So thick is the euphoria and triumphalism post November 2nd that I wonder if most of our media, never mind the bovine American public, have any inkling of how ghastily Iraq is going down the drain, and taking the American military with it. We've been so bombarded with "Failure is not an option" that few are willing to assert, as van Creveld and Lind do, that failure may not be an option but it damn well may be the outcome, and quicker than anyone contemplates.

Andrew Sullivan and Thomas Friedman can petition for more troops all they please It's too late for more troops. We don't have troops to spare as it is, but even if we did, it's too late. It's too late for everything. The blundering mistakes that were made in the first days and weeks of the occupation can't be reversed now--they're incorrectible. The window of opportunity dropped like a guillotine while Donald Rumsfeld was regaling the press corps with his pithy wisdom.

[sonicdeathmonkey]

99. This is great!

We can use this against Bush to bring him down. It's almost as if Bush himself shot that poor wounded freedom fighter. When are we going to stop terrorizing these people?

Those Marines are a bunch of bullies, man. They suck. All they do is kill kill kill. We should teach them a lesson and not pay our taxes. 'Cause that's where their money comes from, you know.

[wtmusic]

105. Right on SDM!!!

Kill, kill, kill...you got it! They're almost as bad as freepers pretending to be liberals, trying to act clever! It never works!

[cubsfan forever]

106. Excellent riposte!

Not that he/she would "get it."

Professor 2

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

118. "The Free Republic allows liberals to post their opinions."

No they don't.

And exactly WHERE do "some of" us "speak of killing the president."???

WHERE?

[MsTryska]

153. I have to admit...

i've thought about it. :p

[Djinn]

110. nice try

but completely and totally transparent.

[astroboy]

113. Henry David Thoreau

must be smiling :evilgrin:

"We should teach them a lesson and not pay our taxes. 'Cause that's where their money comes from, you know."

http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/thoreau/

[OldLeftieLawyer]

170. Consider this -

It's not a war. It was never a war. It's us invading a country that did absolutely nothing to the United States.

Support the troops?

I don't. I never will.

Imagine if these blessed troops had - en masse - decided to disobey the orders given to them and refused to attack a country with which we had no beef.

Imagine if all the soldiers there laid down their arms and walked away.

I'm sounding like John Lennon on cold medication, I know, but I don't support any of this, including the troops. It's becoming so PC to "hate the sin, love the sinner," but the troops, after all, are the ones doing the bidding of the bastard liars in the White House and the Pentagon.

It takes a lot more guts to refuse to carry out orders that are morally reprehensible than it does to invade a country and then proceed to terrorize its inhabitants and destroy whatever's standing.

[donkeyotay]

182. "I'm sounding like John Lennon on cold medication, I know, "

Sometimes you have to laugh to keep from crying. I know that more than once I've found myself humming

"He's the universal soldier
and he really is to blame.
His orders come from far away no more.
They come from here and there
and you and me and brothers
can't you see?
this is not the way to put an end to war."

Donovan

Too bad the media demonized and destroyed our history, or old lefties could have spared this generation some of the learning curve.

[PATRICK]

109. War is Hell

Is that somehow comforting, ennobling? I've seen movies even about the last Gulf War where the public sits down and accepts this behavior as the norm. It rarely happened in WWII movies without berserk provocation and whipped up revenge. These atrocities are part of the nature of war. The gentleman soldier is the soldier who never has to fight or who gets beaten very fast.

The entire responsibility for unleashing the beast rests on the leadership. Instead they are given support and accolades while the troops get madness and dirt(no matter how the public tries to do otherwise).

You support your troops by making war obsolete and recognizing the beast in all of us. Instead we become as hardened or blind or hateful as those dragged down into the gutter by murderous war profiteers posing as popular messiahs.

[astroboy]

114. Our tolerance for VIOLENCE seems to be MUCH LESS than wwII

that is a good thing

[Minstrel Boy]

117. You think?

There is an APPETITE for violence today, and the feeding of it is worth billions of dollars, that did not exist 60 years ago.

[astroboy]

119. i think our history and actions since wwII prove that

look at how the WHOLE WORLD came out in protest before a single shot was fired...
look at the OUTRAGE over Abu Gharib...
look at this OUTRAGE over a single victim...

we didn't nuke NK or Vietnam...

thats the way it looks from the cheap seats anyways.

keep fighting the good fight :toast:

peace

[wtmusic]

122. And Iraq hadn't invaded 12 countries either

nor had they killed 2,600 servicemen in a surprise attack

[astroboy]

123. ah... no one said they had

:shrug:

[wtmusic]

126. well

you claim our tolerance to violence is much lower. Hitler invading 12 countries makes Saddam look like an altar boy

[astroboy]

129. and we flattened their whole country...

with a little help from our friends, of course, there were hundreds of fallujas AND we nuked a DEFEATED, trying to surrender nation's cities filled with innocent civilians, men, women, children, and OUR OWN POWS, TWICE :nuke: :nuke:

i'm not talking about our reasons why we go to war but the scale of violence unleashed.

[wtmusic]

121. disagree

you don't have to be an animal to fight. There is such a thing as duty with honor.

And no, the entire responsibility does not rest on the leadership.

http://www.freecamilo.org

[mike_c]

112. there's ultimately no "political legitimacy..."

...for wars of aggression. The only real answer for the occupation forces is to frag the journalists, or insure that they're utter toadies.

[UL_Approved]

132. That is right

The fact that journalists are reporting on this is not a crime. This needs to be shown to the world. For all those posters proclaiming that this is like WWII, you need to consider what part we are playing. The United States has to date invaded and removed regimes from two different nations in the last 3 years. We are NOT the allies in this scenario. WE ARE THE AXIS AGGRESSORS. You may paint this in any light you want. WE made the invasion of Iraq. WE are killing without just cause. WE are the ones pushing and producing pre-emptive war. Does ANYBODY here remember what happened in the months preceding the attack on Pearl Harbor? ANYBODY remember the oil confiscation and pre-emptive war tactics of Japan? Anybody?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

133. You forgot Haiti. The US overthrew Aristide with terrorism still going on.

A democratically elected leader was kidnapped to Africa the end of February this year and thugs armed by the US with brand new M16 rifles and flak jackets overran the country and killed and killed and killed.

The carnage of the US coup is going on even now.

[UL_Approved]

134. You are right, thanks. n/t

[natrat]

203. does this mean Gracious Leader will end up like Mussolini

that would be sweat

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trapper914]

142. Plain and Simple

I support the troops. They had no choice but to fight the war the Neo-Cons created for them. They weren't given enough equipment or support. They have been put in more no-win situations than this year's Carolina Panthers.

Still, one reason I support our troops is because I believe that they will do the right thing, even if it means risking their own lives. I could not do what they do. How would I have reacted in that mosque? Sadly, I don't know if I would have acted honorably either. That doesn't make what this one Marine did acceptable.

I would think Geneva and Military law don't make exceptions, and he will be punished accordingly. The entire Marine Corps, however, doesn't deserve the black eye due to the act of one Marine who made one horrific mistake.

I still support the troops.

[bloom]

158. The troops have a choice.

In the Vietnam Era - seems to me a lot of people went to jail rather than fight. There are a few people doing that today.

They are my heros.




The troops in Iraq are not doing me any favors and I will not pretend that they are.

[wtmusic]

166. A man with true courage

http://www.freecamilo.org

[CarbonDate]

144. It was clearly a war crime

This whole war is a crime.

I can't get too riled up about this one Marine, since he's only a symptom of the larger issue.

We're committing genocide in Iraq, and we need to continue to work for a complete withdrawl, right now. Influence public opinion on the matter, and lobby your Congress-critters (ESPECIALLY Republicans) to call for a withdrawl.

Now that the election is over, we need to stop framing the arguement in an anti-Bush manner, but frame it as a moral issue. We can do the elections and try to get a Democratic President, but the people of Iraq can't wait that long.

[MsTryska]

155. Thank you!

for being a voice of reason.


i said something similar, but not as eloquent and get a buncha "long haired hippies" down my throat.


(btw - for you no sense of humor people - the long haired hippie comment was a joke)

[Forkboy]

147. We need more of these threads

it makes the mods jobs easier to have the trolls and freeps in one place :)

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

161. What's your poison?

[wtmusic]

164. Thank GOD!

Whew, I was worried. I thought for a moment this war had no justification! Saddam could have invaded New York and popped those things in a subway--and realistically maybe a thousand people could have died!

So let's see...we've killed a hundred thou Iraqis...saved a thousand American lives (assuming Saddam's invasion of New York was successful)..that means Arab's lives are worth 1/100 of American lives. Zat sound about right?

I will *definitely* sleep better tonight.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

171. How come?

Why did it take so long to plant the sarin there?

I hate when the US is incompetent.

[wtmusic]

174. Good pt

If they can't mock up an Iraqi-looking nuke warhead given nearly two years...

The American People deserve either moral rectitude or competence.

[moderate_hero]

178. Not sarin

but vials for testing whether sarin gas is present. Go to www.nbcprotect.com to find how you too can buy them.

[mhr]

187. You Are Obviously A War Monger Glorifying War!

Hope you rot in hell!

[WithStamina]

192. Most Iraqis disagree

Most Iraqis are completely opposed to the insurgency. They know that those people just want to kill no matter what. A lot don't like the US, but they have the insurgency as well. DON'T call them patriots.

[mhr]

193. Your Opinion With No Corroborating Facts

Opinions are a dime a dozen and have little meaning without evidence.

Since you are not in Iraq how do you know?

Because your savior, GW, told you so!

Please!

[ezekiel333]

194. Swamp gas or hurricane damage?

Or perhaps just a momentary lapse of reason?

So many questions, so little time before the short bus arrives...

[Iver Johnson]

201. E- mail from a Marine in Fallujah

This is one story of many that people normally don't hear, and one that everyone does.
This is just one most don't hear:
A Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently filled with armed insurgents firing with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The wounded insurgent can be heard saying, "meester, meester! diktoor, diktoor!"(doctor) He is badly wounded, lying in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly advance toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies approach from behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds that of the outside, and the concussion is felt before the blast is heard. Marines outside rush into the room, and look on in horror as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by the insurgent detonating several pounds of high-yield explosives. The Marines' remains are gathered by cold eyed comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a metal box. The families can only mourn over a closed casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short by someone who hid and attacked from behind a white flag. But no one hears these stories, except those who lived to carry the remains of a friend and brother Marine, and the families who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.
This is the story everyone hears:
A young Marine and his fire team cautiosly enter a room just recently filled with armed insurgents firing with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, and another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, "meester, meester! diktoor,diktoor!"(doctor) He is badly wounded. Suddenly, he pulls from beneath his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the room, killing one Marine and wounding the others. The young Marine catches shrapnel in the face.
The next day, the same young Marine, the same type of situation, a different story. The Marine and his cover man enter a room in a mosque where there are two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in a puddle of blood, the other against the wall. A reporter and his cameraman survey the wreckage inside and in the background can be heard the voice of the young Marine, "He's moving, he's moving, he's fucking faking he's dead!"
The crack of a rifle is heard, and the wounded insurgent against the wall is dead. Another Marine is heard to say, "He's fucking dead now!"
Minutes later, hours later, the scene is broadcast on national television, and the Marine is denounced as a war criminal by those who were not there. Accused of an unlawful killing by those who were not there.
And now, a Marine has the possibility of being burned at the stake of political correctness for protecting his life and the lives of his brother Marines. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming down their faces. Brother, should I have been in your boots, I too would have done the same.
For those of you who do not know, we Marines, we Band of Brothers, Jarheads, Leathernecks, Devil Dogs, etc., do not fight because we think it is right or think it is wrong. We are here for the Marine to our right and the Marine to our left. We willingly choose to risk, and indeed sometimes give our lives, so that the Marine next to us can go home to the loving embrace of wives, children, families, and dear friends.
For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television and anonymously at your keyboards and choose to condemn this Marine's actions, I have but one thing to say to you. Get out of your recliner, get off your judgemental asses, and lace up your boots, pick up a rifle, leave your families behind, and join me. See what I have seen, walk where I have walked. To those of you back home who support us in a thousand ways, you have our undying and sincere gratitude. You keep us alive.
I am a Marine currently on his second combat tour in Iraq. These are my opinions and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or the U.S. Military or any other.
LCpl Schmitt, USMC

[Shopaholic]

202. Today in the newspaper there was a LTTE

from a freeper who said that journalists shouldn't be allowed to cover the War (any war) and that Kevin Sites, the reporter who got this story out was a traitor and was trying to further his career. Oh well, hell, what do I expect? I live in the South.

[joe_sixpack]

206. Saw a story in the paper today

The bodies of four insurgents were flown to Dover AFB, now why do you think they might have done that? It appears the rest of the wounded in the mosque were offed as well. Spin away folks, tell us now why it was necessary to kill them as well, particularly since one was trying to surrender and was speaking in English, offering information.