Are Liberals biased, or do we stand for truth?

[Gothic Sponge]

Someone told me they don't like "extremes." They can't stand Conservatives and Liberals. They think both are too biased. Sure, we may have some bias, but i think of us as having truth on our side. Am i now biased? ;)

[rfranklin]

1. Liberals are biased toward the truth...

Your friend is probably a big fan of Velveeta and Wonder Bread too.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Not entirely.

There are somethings that liberals have trouble dealing with. Liberals basically support an everything goes philosophy. Sometimes they don't want to get too critical about people's lifestyles, even when those life choices may create issues with public health, safety and welfare.

If I'm wrong, start a thread and define your terms. It would go far in helping the Dems define their convictions.

[DrWeird]

5. Pardon me for asking.

What the fuck are you talking about?

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. Here it comes...

Stop and name your convictions. Big Dawg suggested as much. So g'head. How Liberal are you? What are you willing to accept AS A PARTY, and how much are you opposed to vehemently?

Here, I'll start it for you:

pedophiles -- Big Bad

Okay, your turn.

[indigobusiness]

11. First rule: do no harm.

There are no more rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Oh, really?

Here's a dicey word for you: bath houses. Why aren't they shut down all over this country? I support gay marriage, but when your own gay activist come out against behavior which has proven deadly to your community as well as the wider community, do you wonder why conservatives have so much meat to sink their teeth into?

[indigobusiness]

13. No, I don't wonder.

Break the first rule and reap the whirlwind.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. I think we reaped your whirlwind on Nov. 2.

No morals is no solution.

[indigobusiness]

17. Morals? 'Do no harm' is the height of morality.

Fight Club was lost on Republicans. That's their moral failing.

[indigobusiness]

18. It wasn't my whirlwind.

Not by a longshot.

[DrWeird]

20. Ah, homosexuality.

I thought it would be.

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. It's not just a homo-sexuali issue

It's a community issue. If we're all going to stand shoulder to shoulder, it would be nice to know that we're all in agreement on something. I support gay marriages, but I'm not gay. I support abortion rights, though the chances of me getting pregnant just became slim to none.

However, there's also individual social responsibility. When do the Dems finally draw a line and say, we'll only going to go thus far. For example, how many abortions would they support for a woman who refuses to take responsibility for her own birth control? Do we support the gay man who knowingly has bareback sex with bisexual men who are married? At what point does my interests in supporting the Dems, finally become counter-productive? Hey, if you think this line of questioning is tough, keep in mind that I'm the tolerant one.

[Ardee]

30. Why blame Democrats for social issues?

Freedom is just what it is, you are free to criticize and I am free to refute your criticisms. Neither of us is free, however, to legislate morality. That, imo, is the line.

The irresponsible woman who has multiple abortions is paying a price for them, a price in her health and a price in her self image.But to legislate that she must use birth control or she is banned from medical procedures is going too far. The bringing of unwanted and probably abandoned children into this society is a far worse act.

An infected man who knowingly has unprotected sex is committing a crime, you know, or should know. This is an issue of a different stripe and I am unclear on why you condemn the Democrat or the Liberal for supporting such actions when they certainly do not...agenda alert?

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Not legislation, but draw some moral line.

Right now the right has successfully defined you as the party of immorality. That's because the party never comes out and says otherwise.

If you have a line drawn in the sand, then the party needs to come out and get itself on the record so the Republicans don't continue to go beyond it.

[Ardee]

34. You forgot to add

the words, "in my opinion"...because that is what you are posting, your own opinion. In my opinion one persons morals are another's nonsense. While certain right wing republicans and moralizing buffoons are making hay about this I do not believe that the vast majority of the electorate is swayed by this.Further I do not believe that a political party is about religiously motivated individual morality. I am sorry that apparently you do.

The sort of thinking that you are encouraging leads to witch burning and other such crap.This nation is not and should not be about such things and encouraging a political party to take such a stance lends undue credence to your puritanism.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. Ardee, you're the reason why conservatives are winning.

You need to think outside of your box.

[Ardee]

43. I would respectfully respond

that you are the one seemingly unable to understand or even respond to the points I raised. You just post a nonsensically impossible statement though I do thank you for the grossly inflated importance you lace upon me. I will now feel so very responsible for all world events.

Silly of you really.....But I doubt you really want to understand why conservatives are winning as much as you want to drag the party more toward those conservatives...no thanks.

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. You're not even a liberal. Are you?

[Ardee]

49. Nope

Dyed in the wool socialist....Or at least when compared to your Attila the Hun political bent I would be....

[The Backlash Cometh]

55. Well, I feel for you, but in uniting the Dems with the mainstream

to win the next election, I'm afraid that your politics will be tempered. Certainly enjoy your kind's perspective in ferreting out the hypocrisy of the other party, but, as for uniting the center, I'm afraid that we will need to define terms which will not make you happy.

[Ardee]

56. 'My kind' despises 'your kind'

and feels that 'your kind' is solely responsible for the mounting democratic losses. While it fails utterly to penetrate your neoconservative walls others note full well that the Democrats who are succeeding are those like Obama who stand up ,speak up and refuse to believe your crap about moving right to distinguish the democrats from the GOP...what a '1984' scenario.

Should the neocons who currently hold sway over the former Democratic Party (known on the street as "that other republican party")continue to remain in power and decide the direction of that formerly great group then you will lose another election in '06 and certainly in '08.

Oh well so sad but I'm busy attempting to build a REAL opposition party here in America.

Remember it was Bill Clinton, just the other day, who remarked what admiration he had for Bush....you too I guess?

While I'd love continuing to beat my head against your rigid , destructive and wasteful ideology, its a great day, Ive got to go to REI and get some waterproofs for my impending wars on the Steelhead population of Northern California

[The Backlash Cometh]

59. Stay strong, bro!

We all want a better world. We just have different methods and different battlefields.

[Ardee]

69. Stay tuned

I am caucusing "my kind" for a response to "your kind"......

[The Backlash Cometh]

71. Then call Nader. He may give your pointers.

Seriously, my kind are ready to drop out all together. If you lived in the heart of Repub country, you'd understand why. You will never, never beat them your way. You have to tap into the mainstream somehow and right now you have nothing to get their attention. They don't care about the poor, they don't care about pro-abortion or gay marriages. You have absolutely no leverage.

You want to get their attention? Then go after the security moms. Set up churches that will provide daycare for their kids. Or protect American jobs and paychecks. That's how you'll get their attention.

[Ardee]

72. You have absolutely no clue

as to what MY way entails. All you have is your right wing illusions of what sort of morality play is going on in this nation.

You prattle about saving jobs when that is exactly what liberals intend, yet you act as if that were exactly the opposite.You seem to think you are tuned in to the needs of the American voter yet are afraid of them. I wish to fuck you WOULD drop out frankly that would leave more room for those unafraid of the truth and those with the moral convictions to continue the struggle.

You use Nader as if he were some poor example yet he has more morality, more courage in his little finger than ever you will achieve. Nader stood up for what he believed, something that neither major party candidate was capable of doing and something that your every word makes clear you cannot do either.

You reject principles, you reject telling the truth to people, you reject standing up for basic freedoms, you insist upon the adoption of some ridiculous religious based political stance in which you try to be everything to everyone.All you become is nothing to anyone.

I refuse to share your jaundiced view of our fellow Americans and I reject your cowardly approach to politics.In fact I sort of feel sorry for you, going through life with such a poor image of your fellow Americans. I believe in my heart that the founders of this nation would tuirn from you in disgust as i do now....goodbye and good luck, you have nothing while I have courage, honesty and my convictions and that will do me just fine, win or lose.

Cya

[The Backlash Cometh]

75. You're a self-proclaimed socialist, Ardee. You will never prevail

in this current atmosphere. Though I think your intentions are good and I sincerely believe that you all do a better job of helping the poor than the present government or churches because you all are individually committed to doing so, I know that you only represent a fraction of the Democratic party and will lose more votes than you gain.

As for standing up for principle, you couldn't be more wrong. I told you, I live in a sea of Red. No blue island in sight. But I soldier on trying to keep people honest, and trying to get them to play fair and by the rules. It's a losing battle. They are corrupt. What's more, my own husband believes everyone is corrupt, so you just need to live with it. My daughter can't understand why I prefer to be friendless than to pretend to care about people who have in one way or other have demonstrated that they're capable of embezzlement, sexual battery, breach of fiduciary responsibility. This is what living in middle America is all about. You work your ass off, from where you must be battling on, to get to my neighborhood, just to discover that it is far, far worse. Where you have policemen at every corner in your neighborhood, there is no one, and I mean no one in mine to temper the "pillars of the community." They would be too afraid.

I don't question Nader's higher principles and morals. I just question his political saavy. He could have stopped this four years ago. Now we're all the weaker for what he did by running in 2000.

You can fight me, Ardee. But it would be a mistake. We have our own battles to fight on different battlefields. You wouldn't even get invited to church where I live.

[Ardee]

87. Make NO mistake please

My original remark vis-a-vis my politics:

Dyed in the wool socialist....Or at least when compared to your Attila the Hun political bent I would be....

Subtlety escapes.....I am actually a forty year registered Democrat who left in disgust after the neocon takeover of that once proud and meaningful party and now register Indie with a leaning towards third party politics as the only hope of rescuing this nation from the corporate enslavement and the religiously motivated weakening of our democratic processes.

Listen Backlash, please, I work in a blue collar environment surrounded by Bush supporters and rednecks. I do not ignore them, quite the contrary I speak my mind, in as non confrontational fashion as possible.I maintain my friendships with my coworkers because how can we change their minds if we perceive them as the enemy?

The real way to save our democracy is by NOT becoming those who weaken it. I have had some small successes with my coworkers by understanding what it is that is important to them as men and women, as husbands and wives, as fathers and mothers, as workers. You cannot simply ignore your neighbors, Backlash, because that makes you powerless to change them. We are all the same, way down deep, we want the same things and thus we do have common dialog.

In debating these folks I get that same one line vehement sloganeering that we are all familiar with, Kerry is a commie, Bush saved us from terrorism, Hussein was responsible for 9/11 etc. ad nauseum.I patiently and quietly present the provable truths to them and, in the face of my rational presentations I get listened to by more of them than you would believe. I have had some of the most right wing and religious people come up to me and ask for a source or two to my comments, a real good start dont you think?

Backlash I would not be wasting all these posts on you if I did not respect you as a person and want you to be on my side. I am sorry you feel so isolated from your (potential)friends and neighbors, because these are our allies (also potential).This is the real activism, Backlash, this is the way we will win, and make no mistake, we will win.

[datasuspect]

81. wow

that was one of the best posts i have read in quite some time.

thanks for saying that.

maybe create a separate post with that? i'd like to see how people respond to it. . .

[Ardee]

89. You are very kind

to say that. I do think that I failed to keep the discussion free of rancor and that IS a failure.

I firmly offer that all this talk about making the Democratic Party more palatable to the religious right is nothing more or less than a victory for Rove, sponsored by the very leadership that has failed us all for so long now.

The key to winning elections does not lie in the churches, it lies in the minds and hearts of all American voters.The issues that are important to people do not lie solely with their religious beliefs, in fact I believe that those are very secondary to economic and domestic needs.Kerry failed because he refused to delineate a line in the sand, for the most part and tried to become Bush in the eyes of the voters, thus we saw more and more union folks voted GOP, more and more young folks not bothering to vote,etc.....pity really.

[Sterling]

86. "Seriously, my kind are ready to drop out all together." I wish

If you would we the rest of use could start building a party that means something. In fact joining the republican party is the smartest thing "your kind" could do.

You have a bettere chance of pulling that party in whatever dirrection you wish than getting rank and file Dems to follow you any further right.

[The Backlash Cometh]

90. I'm not even part of your party.

So you got your wish even before you opened your mouth. I'm registered "No Party." I've been an Independent since I first registered to vote, some thirty years ago.

Obviously, I'm fighting my battles in my own red community without the help of the Democratic party, because, hey, you're not here! So powerful, are you, that there isn't even anyone of you with the balls to go up against Repubs in local elections and they slide in without challenges.

So you go ahead and remake the party any way you like. I'll just wait until your chapter reaches my neck of the woods. Be sure to come a calling when you do.

[Sterling]

85. "you will lose another election in '06 and certainly in '08"

That much is a given on the course we are on. There is no chance of the party we call Democratic to every ratake power on the "follow the repuke" course we are on.

And I would bet we will lose them without the help of a whole hell of a lot of people who worked their asses of this time that will never return to the party if we drift any further rightward.

As of now I my support is not going to any party until that party makes an effort to reach out to my views, period. I can not vote at all and feel as good as I do about my support for the Dems in this election, in hindsight.

[datasuspect]

80. what mainstream is that?

is radical christian fundamentalism the mainstream?

do we have to tolerate facism, or worse yet, embrace it and parrot the views of ideological conservatives to get them to like us? are we gonna have to be more right wing than the right wing to win an election?

you make it seem like it was a landslide.

it wasn't.

[The Backlash Cometh]

91. You should have won. Both elections.

How did you let them beat you?

[datasuspect]

102. i personally have never run for political office

however, the democratic candidates in the last two elections probably did win.

[The Backlash Cometh]

104. The Republicans are just bringing in business tactics to the

political arena. Granted, they're breaking rules as they go along, but, still should make it easier to prove fraud, shouldn't it? So, why didn't we win?

[The Backlash Cometh]

92. I think the point is that fundamentalism ISN'T the norm.

So why do you keep getting your asses kicked in on morality issues?

[Sterling]

84. Are not the repukes the party of wifeswappers and child porn rings?

That is our recent history with the guy thta pimped his wife out up north in the sex clubs and then that guy in th 80's in Nebraska pimping out boystown kids to powerful pols was a big time repuke too.

So what the fuck is your point anyway.

Do you go to engage in this kind of behaviour and thus are projecting it upon the "we" here at DU? As far as I know there are perverts all across the political spectrum.

[The Backlash Cometh]

93. Prove it.

If the repubes are the party of wifeswappers and child porn rings, prove it. If that is what they do, then why hasn't the left been able to make the label stick? Is it perhaps because the left has members in its group that make it impossible to ever take the high moral ground? And maybe those of us who are trying to get it back, are tired of carrying the rest of you?

[TankLV]

111. Ahh - thanks for clarifying "us" again.

"Right now the right has successfully defined YOU as the party of immorality"

So, if YOU are lecturing US, WE can gather that YOU are a fucking repuke who has come here to lecture US again?

Very telling indeed.

[The Backlash Cometh]

114. Oh, I'm sorry. Is DU a mutual admiration society?

In that case, so sorry I offended your sensibilities.

[TankLV]

141. You should be sorry - you've offended a lot more than just me.

About all your bullshit and lies and bigotry and perversions masquerading as phoney "concern".

[The Backlash Cometh]

144. I don't expect you to understand right now, Tank.

But in time, I hope you will.

[datasuspect]

79. "individual social responsibility"

you know, the right has taken over in this country by hijacking the language, the very vehicle of debate and establishing a position.

your second paragraph reads eerily like right wing propaganda. i'm not saying that you are a right winger, but you don't get to the heart of a matter by presenting caricatures of liberal positions.

since when has bareback sex with bisexual men been an issue of the democratic party?

when the language is hijacked, and when conservatives create the terms of debate, liberals have to defend themselves against rampant absurdity.

typical exchange:

d: one byproduct of internal combustion is pollution

r: so you're saying you're against cars? why are you against cars? why do you hate cars so much, is this what michael moore taught you to think?

see my point? albeit i tried to make it in an exaggerated way, this is the usual line of reasoning when dealing with conservatives.

[Sterling]

88. Yes his accepted paradigm is the RW talking points everyone see's through.

Sad someone like this would claim to be on our side.

[The Backlash Cometh]

95. Apparently, I'm not.

I'm an Independent who has been voting for Democratic presidents since she was able to vote. Tell me, did I make a mistake?

[datasuspect]

100. not necessarily a mistake

however, i think that in trying so exceptionally to be an independent, you have somehow missed the forest for the trees

[The Backlash Cometh]

105. Too broad a response to answer.

<buzzer> Please try again.

[datasuspect]

109. please

i was just saying you didn't make a mistake.

think for yourself. i know you don't want someone like ME to spell things out for you.

[The Backlash Cometh]

115. My trouble is not in thinking for myself, it's in trying to divine what

you're thinking. Don't be afraid to express your opinion. Running to idioms is a nasty American habit that castrates thoughts and ideas. Trees for the forest, forest for the trees, indeed. Define your wood and branches so I can determine exactly what you're on about.

[The Backlash Cometh]

94. Social pragmatism.

Just going to hit a brief point: Bareback sex, especially when one of the couples is HIV positive, is a public health issue. That's a fact that you need to deal with.

[datasuspect]

101. i can deal with public health issues

just don't turn it into the caricature of a democratic party issue.

could it be that you have a problem with homosexuality?

[The Backlash Cometh]

106. heehehehe.

Yeah, that's right. Pull the gay card. That should win you points.

[datasuspect]

108. right wing debate strategem no. 234.7a

"you're pulling out the gay/race/fill in the blank" card.

used by conservatives when you ask them about their obvious racism/homophobia/other hatred.

an attempt to make it look like someone else has a problem because they aren't racist/homophobic or driven by some other ideologically-based hatred.

roaches don't like it when you turn the lights on either.

[The Backlash Cometh]

117. Then let's lay the cards on the table and walk away from this argument

If you've already marked me for a right-winger, then let's just walk away from this discussion. I'm not here to work hard to get my views across, any more than I am when I'm sitting with my husband's fundie side of the family. If you want to discuss, we'll discuss. If not, then it's a beautiful day, go out and enjoy it.

[datasuspect]

120. i don't necessarily think

you are a right winger

i think your remarks are somewhat misguided and informed by right wing ideology.

[The Backlash Cometh]

123. Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

There are always firsts for everyone. Breaking stereotypes is never a fun thing to do. If you realize anything at all today, is that there are people in America who will never vote Republican, but who also don't agree with a no holds barred approach to social behavior.

[datasuspect]

128. you're breaking a stereotype

by trying to make the democratic party into some form of republican lite?

[The Backlash Cometh]

129. You're falling into a trap.

Democrats DO have morals. I'm just here to make sure they're defined. You're suggesting that only Republicans have morals? Sounds a little defeatist to me.

[datasuspect]

130. please don't put words in my mouth

and you're being absurd. i never suggested such a thing.

i'm trying to make a comment on your use of right wing ideologies to promote your agenda.

[The Backlash Cometh]

132. Let's backtrack.

Defining morals & convictions is NOT becoming Republican Lite.

[datasuspect]

133. you're being disingenuous

and not altogether forthcoming

enumerating the various morals and convictions of your average liberal/progressive/freethinker/democrat is relatively easy.

i wouldn't think someone would have to list these for you.

but what you are trying to do is find where the democratic agenda is deficient and you are trying to turn gay sex and gay sex venues into defining features of your argument and into defining issues of the democratic party. i think this is a red herring.

i don't think you are as interested in acquiring any useful knowledge or wisdom as much as you are trying to incite and promote an agenda that is heavily informed by right wing ideology.

please disabuse me if i am wrong

i stay away from the use of the word "morals" because it is largely a misnomer and is often purely subjective.

one person might think it is moral to alienate and persecute homosexuals and base this upon biblical scripture, while another person believes that every person has the same rights and should be accorded fundamental human dignity regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation.

here is a short list (not all-inclusive) of some liberal/progressive convictions and policies/programs that illustrate the moral intent of progressives.

anyway, the short list:

human rights

worker rights

anti-poverty

pro-literacy

pro-education

social justice

unemployment insurance

child labor laws

consumer protection laws

environmental regulations

social security

expansion of rights (cf. the 10th amendment to the constitution of the united states).

separation of church and state

etc.

anyway blah blah blah

[The Backlash Cometh]

135. Fine list of values and convictions.

Now, if that's what the Dem party stands for, why is it that the Republicans have framed the issue on gay marriage?

I'm not gay, but I support the left. And each time we get close to taking back this country, this thing comes in to poke us in the ass. I think I have a right to ask the hard questions. Especially since the one issue that is foremost important to me isn't even on your list: Affirmative Action.

Minorities know that they have to make an offensive attack to protect AA. We are slowly exposing all the white entitlements. From legacies, to a point system that also favors rural white boys to unfair string-pulling in places like country clubs. In time, AA will go away, but so will the good ole boy system. I don't know if the members of our white society realize this, but that's where it will end.

You, on the other hand, want to take the same approach that Bush takes. You're not making any mistakes so, you're not going to change between this election and the next. I'm not suggesting that you support anyone that wants to legislate behavior, but dammit, show that you can criticize your own.

[datasuspect]

138. you still talking about something?

ok fine, you win . . .

is that better?

[The Backlash Cometh]

139. No. It's not better.

If we're keeping score, you win, we lose.

[TankLV]

112. Umm - YOU are the one who "pulled the gay card" YOU are the only one to

bring up this bullshit.

Now go away.

We all know WHAT and WHO you are.

You would be more comfortable on another site.

[datasuspect]

116. excuse me?

you don't even know who i am.

why are you accusing me of being a freeper? i find that VERY offensive?

upon what criteria are you basing this?

[datasuspect]

118. sorry tank

i misread your post, thought it was a reply to my post.

again, apologies

[The Backlash Cometh]

119. Tank, I'm sorry I offended you.

But this is all about tough love. If you don't want this discussion to continue, we can walk away from it. And we can go into the next election and get blind-sided again and wonder why.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

82. Why stop there?

Do we support 3 martini lunches? Do we support the bisexual married man who has bareback sex with the gay man? Or perhaps we support mind your own business. I think we have learned that individual morality cannot be legislated. Also are we responsible for someone else's morality?

If you were the tolerant one I think it would be apparent to the point that we would not need to be told you were.

[The Backlash Cometh]

98. Yawn

And your point was...?

[TankLV]

110. Ahh - your true colors are coming thru loud and clear!

A little bit of a gay problem you have, do you?

So, it's the "gay mans" fault not the married man?

So, who the hell is it to tell a woman how many abortions she can or can't have - like to control another person's body, do you? Birth control is 100% reliable, right?

And YOU'RE the oh so "tolerant" one because you say so and then spew your hateful, bigoted garbage?

Riiiiiiiigt!

[The Backlash Cometh]

121. I'm not promoting legislation of behavior.

I'm promoting what Clinton suggested. The Dems need to define their convictions. He never promised it was going to be a rose garden.

BTW, I did know a southern gal who had four abortions. She was such a likeable charmer too. Her excuse? Birth control was her boyfriend's responsiblity. She was a college graduate. I have a right to scowl at her behavior and pray to God she's a Republican.

[immoderate]

60. Some bath house patrons go for the baths.

It seems we threw that out with the bathwater.

--IMM

[datasuspect]

76. nice segue

from paedophiles to homosexuals.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

78. Didn't realize bath houses were a political issue.

[datasuspect]

83. maybe in san francisco

in 1986

[The Backlash Cometh]

99. Or in Miami, in present time.

Go to the Miami Herald and type in bathhouses. Let me know what you come up with.

[datasuspect]

103. why are you so concerned

with where, when, and how gay men fuck?

[The Backlash Cometh]

107. Let's be specific:

Do I care WHERE gay men fuck?

Not if they decide to do it in a private setting. I do have a BIG problem with them using public bathrooms, however, because I, nor any other mother can go into that public bathroom with their sons to monitor the situation. My child shouldn't have to walk into a bathroom to see things that are meant for a private bathroom, er, bedroom. Also, I know heterosexual men would prefer to go in to take a crap without someone knocking from the other stall asking them if they want sex.

Do I care WHEN gay men fuck?

As long as its in private, hell no. As long as I don't live in an apartment with thin walls, it's really none of my business.

Do I care HOW gay men fuck?

Er...yes. I think that's the issue when you discuss bareback sex. No condom, means there is an exposure that may bleed into my life through transfusions should I ever need one for medical reasons. So, hey, the no harm done rule is breeched, er, breached.

[TankLV]

113. Gee, I must be visiting all the wrong bathrooms!

Because in my over 52 years as a gay man, I have NEVER seen men fucking in a public restroom - or doing anything else, for that matter.

Just what is a self-described mother such as yourself doing in a MENS room anyway? hmmmm?

Someone must be on bullshit overload!

I smell something, and it sure ain't facts and the truth!

Just why, as a mother who has children constantly trailing her whenever she goes into a MENS room, is gay sex such an obsession?

Hmmmmmmm?

[datasuspect]

122. ain't it

why the hell would this mother want to take her son to the bathroom at a cruising spot?

i am amazed at the nearly fetishistic obsession with gay sex that conservatives have.

[The Backlash Cometh]

126. Now, how would any heterosexual mother know where the

cruising spots are? Hmmm?

But thanks for admitting they exist.

[datasuspect]

127. yeah

and they have them in the hetero world too. do you rail against straight men who get unprotected blow jobs from crackwhores?

are you upset with the "escort service" prostitution industry?

what are feelings about pornography?

are there certain books that should be banned?

what are you trying to accomplish?

you could just come right out and say what you mean rather than doing all this passive-aggressive bullshit

[The Backlash Cometh]

131. You'd be wrong about a lot of things.

Many of the heterosexuals you rail about, don't even have a clue about the world we're talking about. I know only because of my Behavioral Science background. But that was many, many years ago. I haven't really made it a point of finding the new hang-outs because it really isn't part of my world anymore. But I did encounter one place that had all the signs -- which would have been missed had I not known what to look for. It's a large preserve. Families and schools take their kids there all the time. And if you go, you often find single men in their cars, staring at anyone who drives up to park.

Now, you've at least admitted this exists. That's a big improvement.

[datasuspect]

134. so again,

what are you trying to accomplish?

seems like you are trying to "win" something here.

you said, "Now, you've at least admitted this exists. That's a big improvement."

stop trying to reframe the argument, this was not an issue for me, as i never denied these things exist in our world. you are imagining issues and projecting them onto me and then claiming victory as if you scored some rhetorical points.

you didn't.

[The Backlash Cometh]

136. Yes, I did score points.

I made you acknowledge something that was before ignored. A lifestyle that maybe you all should occasionally show some concern over, just like anyone in the mainstream would, because it has caused social problems in the past and will continue to do so.

[datasuspect]

137. and that's what really matters, yes

that you think you scored points?

you cannot MAKE ME do anything.

we'll put you in "take with a grain of salt" column.

happy sunday

[TankLV]

140. I don't know - YOU are the one takeing her kids there.

I don't know ANY exist.

YOU are the one mentionning them.

You can't read, can you?

I said I didn't ever see one. So how is that proving they exist?

You are one sick "lady".

S.I.C.K.

And if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then YES, I AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS THREAD CAN CLEARLY SEE WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE.

And it aint' no "lady"!

[The Backlash Cometh]

145. Well, at least we agree on one point. I'm no lady.

But I AM a social pragmatist.

[The Backlash Cometh]

125. Oh, yes, it's all about you.

Social pragmatism is not just a gay issue, but it seems that you all are the ones taking offense and responding. Like I said, if it offends you, walk away from the discussion.

The subject matter comes up time and time again in Behavioral Science studies. I'm glad that you all have little or no experience with it, but, it is a social problem which is well documented.

[The Backlash Cometh]

97. Probably your best kept secret.

Unless you read, "And the band Played on" and read the Miami Herald's articles regarding the HIV problems that persist around the very same behavior that was exposed by Randy Shilts.

[FubarFly]

143. For the same reason our gun laws are insane.

Why are NRA types so adamantly opposed to practical, reasonable gun laws?

The slippery slope argument leads to a fear that once you give a little ground, you'll end up surrendering everything.

One side doesn't trust the other- often with good reason. Honest, consensus seeking moderates are undermined by opportunists and power hungry demagogues.

What you end up with is a hodgepodge of ineffective laws that no one really likes, because there aren't enough ethical people in government building trust and encouraging civility.

This is why principles should be a vital component of public service. If people lose faith in the fundamental ideals of fairness and justice, then everything else breaks down.

The simple truth is I have no problem with other peoples morals, because I am willing to respect our differences. If this respect isn't mutual, then I am fully prepared to fight my way to a consensus.

The real problem I have with people is how they propose we deal with systemic corruption- the very mechanisms which make reaching a consensus impossible. There are two basic attitudes on this board which I will never tolerate. The first one is to ignore the problem: "Don't criticize. Fall in line. Shut up so we can win." And the second one, which is far far worse , is to embrace the corruption: "We have to mover further to the right. We have to surrender our core principles. We have to become more like them."

If our country wasn't broke, I wouldn't be trying to fix it. The greatest fear I have is bringing my children up in a world that is damaged beyond any hope of salvage.

[The Backlash Cometh]

146. I am NOT talking about laws. I am not talking about legislation.

I'm talking about defining convictions. You have all the laws already on the books to go after the people that seem to be tweaking a few people on this thread:

(1) Bareback sex is already illegal in certain states. Anyone who is HIV positive that exposes another person to it is already violating the law.

(2) Soliciting in public areas is also illegal.

You would think that members of the gay community would come out and support these laws and show disdain for those who perpetuate and facilitate it, but they don't. Instead, anyone who even remotely suggests that they should show a modicum of disdain for this behavior is labeled a right-winger.

Define your convictions. That's what I'm saying. Define your convictions. There are plenty of conservatives out there who have gay family members. Give them a reason to believe that there's no real difference between you and them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. If that's the limit of your rules, then you're an extreme libertarian

or maybe an anarchist. The first would preclude using taxes for public education, any kind of government regulation of business monopolies, or welfare. The second would be an anarchist with no concept of property, so you can do anything you want with anything you find. Either way, few people (in the USA or UK, at least) would describe you as a liberal.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. I hadn't even thought about asking for his political affiliations.

Thanks.

[indigobusiness]

50. Nonsense.

Just be mindful of the first rule in your regulating.

Stop trying to guild the lily and outnoise the noise.

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. So when you said 'there are no more rules'

you didn't really mean it. Fair enough - that sounds more like a liberal.

[indigobusiness]

57. I meant it. I meant what I said: There are no more rules after rule #1

Do no harm.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. So do you believe in personal property?

Are you an advocate of publically funded education?

[indigobusiness]

63. What does that have to do with it?

I'm in favor of genuine education.

[muriel_volestrangler]

64. If your only rule is 'do no harm', then you wouldn't be able to provide it

because you couldn't collect taxes to fund it.

If you believe in personal property, then you may be able to extend the definition of 'do no harm' to 'do not steal'; this would place you more as a libertarian (who do claim to be the ideological descendants of the Classical Liberals of 19th Century Britain; but are not what are known as liberals in the US or UK today).

If you don't take 'do not steal' as part of 'do no harm', then you accept stealing (not a liberal position), or believe there is not such thing as personal property, so that it is impossible to steal.

[indigobusiness]

65. Taxes are mere tithes. No harm in that.

More harm in greed.

Do no harm is an ethos. It is self-explanatory and supercedes facile rationalizing.

Without this principle, all isms are objectionable.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. To take taxes, you must have rules

You may have "do no harm" as your chief rule, but you need others to form a taxation and spending system.

[indigobusiness]

68. You must have a system.

You only need one overarching rule. Yes.

[Union Thug]

29. You bring up some interesting questions

Ones that will trip up both sides of the political spectrum, I think. I'm not prepared to answer them, as really, my number one issue is labor, but i'll spill some questions and opinions out that I have for people to dismantle.

You broadcast a key phrase, in my opinion, the Public Welfare, the Common Good. This is tied in, obviously with the idea of the Commons, as a whole. Public safety is absolutely key to maintaining the Common Good.

So how then do we approach the issues you bring up? Irresponsible sexual behavior and it's draw on the public dole, what do we do about it? Similarly we could extend that question to cigarettes, alchohol, etc. How much self destructive behavior do we, as a society tolerate? And if we decide to do something about it, as a society, how do we take action while still respecting that this is a nation where we respect civil liberties?

First of all, I think we have to take a look at how people are educated in this country. I think that education is a right of all citizens, K through College and/or Technical/trade school. The more educated and sophisticated the population, the more likely they are to feel themselves a part of the community (economic investment) and the less likely they are to engage in stupid behavior.

I think disenfranchised people are more likely to be exposed to conditions that give rise to destructive behaviors. For example, a kid from the ghetto is more likely to be exposed to crack at a younger age than some whitebread kid a gated community. This isn't 100 percent true, but I think we can sidestep some of the arguments that civil libertarians might (and rightfully) throw out if the country acted against a particular destructive behavior and a certain subset of the population received a disproportionate level of discernment as a result.

But, lets say that we do have a highly educated and engaged community. Do we then say, because we know that you know better, we are going to pass laws punishing you for engaging in a certain behaviors? Can we trust that education and economic/community involvement will help curb destructive behaviors?

I think that providing better education and economic opportunites that allows people the time to think of themselves as part of a larger community (rather than just acting in survival mode) would go a long way towards solving some of the kinds of issues we are talking about here.

I don't know, guys. I'm just throwing this stuff out all stream of conciousness-like!!!

[The Backlash Cometh]

47. Excellent line of thinking.

This is the kind of talk that big Dawg suggested when he told the Democrats to define their convictions.

First of all, education is not the complete answer. I think homo-sexuals are among the most educated group there is in America, and that still doesn't explain why they chose to make individual decisions that are not in the public's best interest.

So education is not the complete answer. Community is the answer. The integrity of our communities have degraded, or maybe, never changed. There is still an unseen hand that trips up anyone who is well-meaning in introducing change, or which challenges the corrupt status quo.

As for civil libertarians, you need to focus on the subject: How do the Dems re-invent themselves? They can't represent every one. They certainly will not please civil libertarians completely, but more so than the conservatives. What the Dems need to do is define their parameters. For the conservatives, it's simple: Anti-abortion & and anti-gay marriage. It's not so easy for Dems. To say pro-choice and pro-gay marriage is not enough. They have to explain just how far they're willing to go within those parameters.

[juslikagrzly]

48. Why do you keep putting a hyphen in the word "homosexual"

Is it to emphasize the "homo" part of the word?

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. LOL! That's the problem with writing in a stream of consciousness.

I also tend to put words together that don't belong together. It's an affectation. I just as easily would have written hetero-sexual if I was typing fast enough. If you look closely, I used hyphens inappropriately in the same post. It's just what I do when I'm thinking to fast for the wordsmiths.

[bvar22]

66. self-delete

nevermind

[indigobusiness]

58. You are what you eat.

Wonderfully velvety.

[HEAVYHEART]

70. hahaha! That's funny!

[SteppingRazor]

2. Of course

You believe in a specific political philosophy. You are, by definition, biased.
But then, so am I :)

[Union Thug]

3. I'd like to hear which 'extreme' specifically they take issue with.

Sounds like a bs answer from someone who really doesn't know what they're talking about. But i'm biased. =)

[cattleman22]

23. Take issue with extreme liberals on gun control for one. n/t

[Union Thug]

24. Is gun control a 'liberal' issue?

or is it one that the opposition would like us to think is a liberal issue? Look how they tried to smear Kerry.

I'm further left than most people on this board, and i own a small arsenal. My father, another leftie liberal owns guns and hunts regularly. All my dad's labor leftie pals were the same way.

If gun control is truly a 'liberal' issue, it's a relatively recent development. It certainly wasn't an issue that I grew up hearing about (but i guess at 40, i'm something of an antiquity around here).

:-)

[cattleman22]

26. I think it is more of a rural/urban issue.

However, it seems to me that more liberals support gun control than conservatives. This is to be expected if this is a rural urban issue as liberals tend to be concentrated in urban areas.

[Union Thug]

31. That's definately an avenue to explore...

Although, and I know this is all anecdotal, I was raised in West Seattle, hardly a rural area. =)

Maybe, instead, it is a question of class. My family is and has been very blue collar. Do you think that the 'stereotypical' latte liberal is more likely to support gun control than a blue collar/labor issue liberal?

[cattleman22]

32. I would say yes.

However, I am just guessing.

[Starlight]

73. You know, I find that "latte liberal" term offensive...

Yes I do. As though drinking McD cheapie coffee somehow makes one superior. It's a little thing, but it's still playing into right wing propaganda.

[The Straight Story]

61. Naw

I am 39, your not an antique yet :)

My take on the gun control thing being liberal: A big tent party, only two parties out there, the one is more restricted so ours welcomes in the left overs (excuse the phrase please). So within the big top we end up with some factions who promote more gun control on a variety of levels. Some a little, some a lot. Since they call our party home then our party is the one people look at as a whole - and the more vocal and outrageous some factions are the more people see the whole party as related to it.

what might be more needed here is a solid party platform, but we could not come up with one easily because we have such a diverse base. It is hard to say what the party does stand for in a detailed way, though we can offer generic answers. Today for gun control, tomorrow against it, next week for a little more and some new laws, a month later we already have too many laws. It goes on and on.

We can debate all year on which one is the 'best' policy to follow but never come to an agreement. The right may have similar problems on some issues, but there are some core ones that people seem to know the answer to without asking. Repubs - gun control is bad, but some control is logical and needed but the line is drawn at X. Dems - we need more, we need less, guns are evil and bad and we should be like england, guns are good and needed to help protect ourselves from tyrnats, etc and so on.

Go to a RW board and read some threads on core issues like this, and most all feel the same way. Look back through the archives here and you see a littany of things from near banning to people questioning why anyone would own one, etc and so on. There is no broad consensus and I think that scares people some - elect a liberal dem and what you get is a crapshoot, or random chance that they will either be for or against something.

Maybe a bit generic, but my take anyway.

[Malva Zebrina]

6. Some liberals are very biased.

I have come to the conclusion that my liberalism is my own party and it is my truth. I am sure the ones who are biased think the same.

[maxsolomon]

8. liberals are not "extreme"

that's bullshit.

bias is universal, what's they're point? that Bush "moderates" aren't?

that's bullshit.

[Ron Green]

9. I think that liberals stand for the truth in that maintaining an open

society is a higher "calling" or activity than allowing the natural jungle of the master-slave society to exist. However, I agree with the posters who acknowledge that liberals often allow "lifestyles" which are harmful to the overall social fabric.

[indigobusiness]

10. Groupthink is anathema to the Liberal ethos of tolerance of ideas and

opinion. Extreme, or otherwise.

That said, Liberalism is served by its intolerance of dogma, bigotry, and lies. So, it could be reasonably said that a truth bias is inherent. LOL...

[Kber]

14. We're all about Truth, Justice, and the American way, baby! nt

[Selwynn]

15. All human beings have bias. Many times, my experience has been that...

...those calling themselves liberals seem to be more likely to critically reflect on the issues, examine their biases and research. That's not always true. But I'm only speaking about my personal experience. My personal experience has been to find way more critically reflective liberals than I have found conservatives, with a couple notable exceptions.

[Ron Green]

19. And that's the reason, isn't it, that liberals have a hard time winning

elections? Critical reflection just doesn't translate to a sound bite as readily as go-for-the-throat ideological invective. Therefore, the chances for progressive political movement in this country are pretty much nil, I'm afraid.

[Astrochimp]

21. I just read about two kinds of learning........

one was 'someone tells/teaches you something' and the second was 'you dig threw the info and learn it yourself' *

IMHO most Bu*h supporters are the 1st type- someone 'tells' them something and it is true, while "we" are the 2nd type- we look at the info for our selfs and then make our decision.


David



* or works to that effect <G>. From the book "How to Read a Book".

[VOX]

25. We are **reality-based**, and if that's biased, then, yes, we are.

We call things as they are, especially when those things are clearly wrong in terms of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

We also tend to evaluate issues by looking at the greater good, rather than by individual welfare.

[porphyrian]

27. Not truth, Freedom.

Truth is relative. As our name implies, Liberals stand for liberty and maintaining an environment in which we can be free. This, by extension, includes the concepts of justice, tolerance, and civic equality. Basically, everything the latest incarnation of republicans are not.

[porphyrian]

28. Fuck yeah, we're biased.

So what? So are conservatives, they're biased as shit. Bias isn't wrong, injustice is.

[Pithlet]

35. The thing is.

I think it is impossible not to be at least somewhat biased when it comes to politics. However, a lot of the principles that liberals stand for aren't based on truths, but on principles. The way things should be, but aren't. That we should work for and strive for that change. A lot of conservative ideology today is based on what they perceive to be the truth. The way things are, and have always been. That you can't change them. I'm talking about actual conservatives, of course, not Bush type "conservatives". They're more interested in a return to the Gilded Age then they are actual conservatism.

[lgardengate]

36. Everyone has a bias on some issues.

[zmdem]

37. Neither

Politics is a pragmatic affair. Leave "truth" to the philosophers.

[kodi]

39. once we can admit all people are not equal we can get down to business

that jive about all men/people being created equal is not objectively true. its a nice theory not borne out by the facts.

hopefully, due to their philosophies, liberals would be realistic to admit it, and commence to use the power of the collective, ie state to bring about an atmosphere of justice where such inequalities do not lead to unnecessary sorrows because of the innate inequalities of humanity.

liberals are biased, as are conservatives, both attempt to use their preferred "-ism" to get what they want.

the attitude of moral superiority is as pronounced on the left as it is on the right. what disheartens me, as a liberal person, is that so many of my political allies do not admit it.

we can distill down to essence in politics to those who believe in knowledge versus those who believe in certainty.

[Slowhand16]

42. Biased? Sure...

Biased towards doing the right thing, and the truth.

[seabeyond]

44. liberals are pretty much into truth, except with their issue

i have seen real hypocrisy in the democratic party on some issues. i sit and giggle.

for example, where i have power, in my driving they say put seatbelt on or i am abusing child and should have child taken away, but the porn sex and crap we feed children on airwaves, where i have no power or control, they say doesnt hurt child, good for child, fuck the child, free speech, our world and we get what we want

but...........in this campaign, hands down i saw the democrats run campaign in honesty and integrity. so when any repug tells me they both are liars and smear the other i call them on it fast

[Starlight]

74. Just a small clarification...

With regard to your free speech "hypocrisy" claim: I don't think liberals are saying "fuck the child," I think they're saying that a wide variety of options should be allowed and, as a parent, it's your responsibility & choice to make the decision & control what your child watches on tv. Why do you say you have "no power or control"? If your child is out of control or you choose to not be involved in parenting, I think it's unfair of you to try to blame it on the Democratic party.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

46. the united states of truthica.......

[Sugarbleus]

52. I'm liberal but sometimes I run into other liberals that are just

plain "snobbish". Instead of "holier than thou", it's "Smarter than thou".....it's the "same difference", when it comes to how we interact with one another,IMO.

Liberals can (not always) become secularly "preachy"/doctrinaire; like we know what's best for everyone else. It's the same irritation with the right and their "Preachy conservative Morals"...thinking THEY know what's best for everyone else too. :shrug:

[Darranar]

53. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Many liberals are both. n/t

[NashVegas]

77. It Depends on How / Who Defines Liberal

Anyone who's been on DU for any length of time can tell you there are just as many so-called liberals who demand lock-step marching as there are conservatives. I view those people as "left," but not necessarily liberal.

This is why modern models of the political compass consider one's level of authoritarianism as much a factor as where one falls on the horizontal line.

[Taxloss]

96. There's a good Camus quote:

"It is better to be wrong than right with gas chambers"

That is, if being "right", involves horrible consequences like gas chambers, then it's better to be wrong.

That's the way I feel on it.

[dubyaD40web]

124. Why is this posed as an "either/or" question? We're both.

Of course we're biased. Anyone with an opinion is, by definition, biased.
We use the truth to help us form (and when appropriate, to alter) our opinions, and therefore our biases.

[Cats Against Frist]

142. If I may

Epistemologically speaking, it really depends on what sort of reality you embrace.

I'm a little bit pomo and a little not logo myself, so I would say that, in the grand scheme of things, I would not say that someone who believes the Earth was created in six days was more "wrong" than the person who believes in evolution, HOWEVER, there are modes of reality, and governance that have worked, and those that do not.

Perhaps the highest evolution of humanity was the Enlightenment, followed by the "good" Christians, who saw to it, at least, that slaves were freed, and then the secularist intellectuals and brave souls who began to push the ideals of true equality and egalitarianism, both here, and in Europe, which led to the Civil Rights Era.

Depending upon if you believe in "modernity" or not, this is pretty good stuff -- scientific objectivity, rational governance, egalitarianism, human rights, classical liberal ideals, justice, etc.

This is the belief system that we came to develop in a large part of the Western World over the last 200 years. Of course, it's always been out of "one side of the mouth." The same people who were doing this were also busy knocking a hole in every "brown" nation from day one. Even during the civil rights era, we were still busy "CIA"ing Latin America and other nations.

The way to look at it, is that these things are the ebb and flow. History repeats itself -- the ugly parts of human rear their little heads, and flourish -- conditions re-occur -- in philosophy, it's called "the eternal return."

To look to see what's "right" you have to take everything at a macro level and get kind of "zen" about it. What separates us from the animals is our intellect (supposedly). What can we do with that intellect? Are we supposed to use it playing Game Boy? Perhaps not -- perhaps the reason for our intelligence, or the greatest ability of it is to transcend the mammalian social darwinian, instinctual, fight-or-flight impulse to which our biology is indebted. The deference of the self to a higher purpose -- be it a principle, a religion, a creed, nature -- whatever -- is something that it takes the most developed reaches of our intellect to do.

Who wants to defer? Is it the fat, hoggy GOPPERS, cruising around in the SUV, supporting the death of innocent children for oil? Or is it the person who works to a. first, sustain him or herself without hurting anywone, PRECISELY SO they can help to sustain others. The "oxygen mask in the airplane theory." The GOP is tantamount to putting on a gas mask and grabbing the person's mask next to them, just because they are bigger, or more ruthless, or whatever.

No matter how the right tries to spin it -- and this is not a matter of "right" or "wrong" but congruence and logic, in and of itself -- you cannot possibly bide the words of Jesus, and appeal to a religion that commands you to defer -- whether to God, humanity, whatever -- and continue to tear all over the planet like a frat party on wheels. Those who believe that the religion is about anything other than self-deference and humility, have sorely mistaken the religion -- this is the "truth" that it reveals -- the truth that puts it in lineage with many other religious myths, from all kinds of religions -- regarded, then, as a conscious "truth" and, if not a "truth" something that has stood time-tested subjectivity, and is somewhat universal.

Yes, we stand for something greater than the GOP. Is it truth? I don't know about that. In the sphere that is the workings of humankind over the past, say couple thousand years, or so -- we stand for something that works well, minimizes atrocity, and sustains us as a people.

It's truly a shame that we're so far away from this -- many people, even on the left, don't realize this lineage, or their own claim to governance, set down by Thomas Jefferson, Rousseau and the Enlightement -- or they wouldn't let the extreme, right-wing authoritarians push them around. Not for a minute.

We are far gone. It's an interesting time to be alive.