Need Input to Understand Gay/Lesbian Issue...

[readmylips]

First, I'm not against Gay/Lesbians. What people do in their own lives, God gave them the freedom of Choice.

We have a very religious relative, Sunday school teacher, assistant to Pastor, etc.. who also has a Lesbian very manly daughter. It's difficult to see if she's a guy or gal. The Lesbian daughter has adopted two foreign kids. We're very happy for him/her and the kids. She/he makes a lot of money, and we're glad she's spending her money of needy kids. Her/his girlfriend who is very feminine, couldn't afford to adopt the children financially.

Her parents only talk about her motherly sacrifice. The adopted mother roll has covered up her Lesbian lifestyle, and she's accepted as a dedicated (republican) christian. One of the main topics at their dinner table has been the hate and anger they hold for Rosie O' for adopting children when she's a Lesbian. I feel that Rosie adopted her children out of love and not because she needs to comply with her religious parents or church. Or to be seen as a Mother first to cover up her Lesbian life.

These people make me vomit, especially when I feel that children are being used for the wrong reasons. Only another relative and I have secretly talked about it and we don't want any warm relationship with such hypocrites. We've been invited to the church christianing/presentation of the last adopted baby and we don't want to go. Have any of you experienced this mess?

[Chipper Chat]

1. I know you mean well, but....

I take issue with your very first sentence. Being Gay or Lesbian is not a choice. Never has been-never will be. Trust me on this.

[Bluebear]

2. Being gay is not a "choice" or a "lifestyle" and stop with the "He-she"

You are using RW language to begin with. Calling the lesbian daughter her/him and she/he isn't helpful either. So I suggest your first step towards "understanding" gays is to not use these terms.

[foreigncorrespondent]

6. blue...

...I should have read your post before I posted. LOL You and I said basically the same thing.

[Bluebear]

7. Honest to Pete.

I just can't believe what I read sometimes.

[foreigncorrespondent]

9. I knowwhat you mean!

Really makes you "wonder", doesn't it?

[mahatmakanejeeves]

3. Have any of you experienced this mess?

Just now.

[foreigncorrespondent]

4. If you really don't want to be flamed...

...I truly suggest you change your first sentence:

First, I'm not against Gay/Lesbians. What people do in their own lives, God gave them the freedom of Choice.

Homosexuality is as much a choice as heterosexuality is.

Also stop referring to her as a her/him she/he kinda thing. She is a butch woman. Going by your discription, I would guess at her being what we term a stone butch. Please just refer to her as being butch.

As for the rest of your thread, I truly haven't come across anything like this. Most of my gay friends have all said they are pissed with Rosie for one thing and one thing only, and that is, the fact that she was outed, rather than came out of the closet for herself.

[Ms. Toad]

5. One step at a time..

First, you indicate this person is a relative with a daughter that you later refer to as him/her.

I hope you will explore how it might feel to you to if someone referred to you in that manner. Many lesbians (and other women who don't work hard to present themselves as traditionally feminine) are mistaken for men and frequently have to put up with rude comments whenever they enter a gender specific place (like a bathroom). To experience this in one's own home from relatives, who presumably know one's gender, must be quite difficult. (You may not use that language directly to her face, but I am relatively sure the sentiment still comes through.)

Most of us (lesbians) have children for similar reasons to those offered by straight folks - creation of family, love for children, wanting to offer a stable home to children who have lost their birth family, etc. I don't now the motives for this particular woman, but my guess is that they are similar. When you can't get pregnant accidentally, having children is not a spur of the moment decision. Because of this it is often a more thoroughly thought out decision. You might spend some time talking with your relative to find out why she chose to adopt children - you might be surprised, and she would probably welcome a straightforward conversation (as opposed to musings behind her back).

Whether she agrees with her parents' politics or not, it is likely a pretty difficult life - especially with the kind of comments you report occurring around the dinner table. Celebrating her children is a relatively safe way for her parents to try to express their love for her, even if they (not so) secretly believe she is condemned to hell for her lesbian relationship. If, as you have indicated, you really have no beef with gays and lesbians, it really is helpful to have the support of our families of birth - you might try extending some!

[Bluebear]

8. Did any of this help light the path?

Haven't heard back from you and wondered what your thoughts are.

[foreigncorrespondent]

10. Hmmm!

Maybe a hit and run?

[Bluebear]

11. delete

[readmylips]

12. Thank You so much for your clear information....

I really apologize for my ignorance or lack of information. Who am I to judge another human being. I have learned a lot through your statements and clear messages. I used he/she because when we met she looked like a man, dressed in man's clothes and her name is male (Bobby). I had no idea it was a woman. Some of you use the term 'butch.' I don't like that word or would I use it.

My experience with Gay/Lesbians is like zero. I do understand that God/Nature made us as we are, and we are all unique and special flowers in nature's garden.

I accept Bobby as she is, and she is a wonderful parent and I don't want to sound as if I'm talking behind her back. I just got a problem with her family's stupid religious hypocrisy of trying to make Bobby into something she's not; a straight mother and using those children to hide their shame. We're trying to understand our roll in this situation. I want to be part of Bobby's life and her children. My other relative thinks that since we don't understand it, we should not be part of their lives. Please, understand our lack of ignorance and don't label us as something else. I truly, truly apologize.

[Bluebear]

14. As an earlier response said

I am certain you meant the best. Now you HAVE experience with gays and lesbians....HERE! :)

You'll find it's a boring 'lifestyle' and we have the same hopes and dreams and frustrations as most with a few extra joys and problems set aside just for us.

[troubleinwinter]

16. "hide their shame" ????!!!!!

Support the love shown by these women for their children by REJECTING the idea that there is any "shame" to hide.

"I accept Bobby as she is, and she is a wonderful parent" Good! Then support Bobby and her partner and the children, and GO to the christening!

[hunter]

17. Well, hmmmm... Imagine you were "Bobby" living in that world...

Even if the grandparents are freaks, it's often nicer to have whatever support they can offer rather than not.

From the outside, to you, "Bobby's" parents might look like "hypocrites" but you really don't know what's going on within the family, and it's really none of your business.

This may be bothering you more than it's bothering them. Or maybe it bothers them quite a bit, but they've come to some sort of agreement that you are unaware of. Again, none of your business.

Bobby, her partner, and her kids are a perfectly normal family. Treat them as such.

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. Ok...

...let me put it to you this way. If you want to be polite towards lesbians then know that in our community women come in all forms, but the two most common terms when describing lesbians are BUTCH and FEMME.

I happen to be femme, but my parnter happens to be butch. And quite frankly I would eat you alive with words if you were to refer to my partner as a he/she him/her.

You say your experience with the LGBT community is zero, then how about listening to what we are telling you and not turn around and say, you don't like a certain word and wouldn't use it? That quite frankly is an insult to the lesbian community.

[Ms. Toad]

21. Actually,

butch and femme are not universally accepted. My spouse and I don't use those terms in reference to ourselves (even though we border the age when the terms were used almost exclusively), and I would not use them without an invitation to do so since I have run into a number in our community who view their use as disrespectful. Because of this, I find it hard to view someone expressing discomfort using the terms butch and femme as an insult.

[foreigncorrespondent]

22. Well I guess...

...we hang in very different circles then.

My partner has been out for a hell of a long time, and she will refer to herself as a soft butch, and me as her femme. Me on the other hand, have only been out for 6 or so years now, and I refer to myself as a femme, and my partner as my butch.

People I have known for a long time through the Internet etc will use the terms and are not offended by it at all. However those same people will be offended at being called him/her he/she.

[Ms. Toad]

23. Probably quite different circles - I've been out 23 years

and my spouse of 23 years has been out at least a decade longer. When she was first coming out, you had to choose one or another category or you had nowhere to fit even within the lesbian community. Although that structure was nearing its end by the time she came out, just before then the roles were in some ways even more rigid and exaggerated than the heterosexual male/female dichotomy. By the time I came out the roles were not so rigid, but it was a recent enough memory that it was a fairly touchy subject - with some of the (then) older folks clinging to the rigid roles and some of us (then) younger folks refusing to accept either.

The memory of those times has faded quite a bit, and I am aware that the words have lost a fair amount of their sting and have been embraced by a good portion of the community that was not around in that era - but for some of us old fogies it feels like the internalized homophobia that was at least partly responsible the rigid roles back in the 50s and 60s - hence my discomfort with the terms.

Being called he/she, on the other hand, is almost universally perceived as an insult.

[foreigncorrespondent]

24. Yep!

Same with Sapphocrat (my partner.) She came out in the 70's, and has told me stories about having to choose one group or another in order to fit in with in the lesbian community.

She also told me what it was like around Stanford back then as well.

For me though, I have no probs with using the terms, or even using the term queer. To me, these terms are something to be proud of, not something to shy away from. But alas, that is just my opinion. :)

[troubleinwinter]

13. I am trying very hard to bite my tongue.

Your comments calling the mother "him/her" and "she/he" is highly disturbing to me. And I don't know what you mean by "manly daughter" and "very feminine".

"It's difficult to see if she's a guy or gal." What does this have to do with you? What does it have to do with ANYTHING?

I think you should really do some inner searching and stop labeling people or putting them into slots. People do not need to be sorted into stereotyped pseudo-gender roles.

The women have chosen to build a family, and loving supportive relationships are what it's all about, right?

Your basic question seems to be that you do not want to attend the christening. WHY NOT? What is the meaning of a christening? To JUDGE the grandparents or parents??? I would think you would like to go to the christening to celebrate the child, and be joyous of the love given by her new parents to decide to adopt and love her.

[readmylips]

15. Don't bite your tongue or I don't learn anything....

I want to be informed and educated and you're all doing a great job of helping me see the light. I am truly thankful.

[foreigncorrespondent]

19. Serious question here!

You say you want to learn about this, then why are you not coming back to this thread?

My post #18, I asked you a serious question, and as yet, that question hasn't been answered.

I am trying to help you learn here, but unless you give us your input we are not achieving anything except hitting a brick wall.

[arwalden]

20. Oh. My. God.

Choice?
Him-her? He/she?