Dean: "The Democrats went along for the ride."

[madfloridian]

This is very long excerpt from Dean's new book, "You Have the Power". There is a video there as well. It is from September 9. To those of you who wonder why I criticize, I do so because I care about my country.

I hate this war, the deaths, the torture. As a retired teacher, I despise what NCLB stands for....the destruction of the public school system by testing, testing and failing grades for schools. The Medicare bill will affect my husband and myself drastically. The tax cut is hitting home in higher bills for everything else. I have every right to be critical and questioning of what my party did.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6088976

Comments on Bush:
SNIP..."He painted the broad strokes of his policies and then left the details to Congress or the political hacks in his administration. Letting the chips fall where they might for millions of children. And sick people. And elderly Americans. That lack of caring, that shrugging off of the details of ordinary Americans' lives, was every bit as enraging to me as purposeful, hateful extremism. It seemed to me, in some ways, even worse. It was callous and opportunistic. And it showed a willingness to put real people — real, ordinary Americans — in jeopardy....."

Comments on the enabling by the Democrats.

SNIP..."Even more infuriating was the way my fellow Democrats went along for the ride, voting so much of the time to advance the president's perilous agenda. They approved his tax cuts, the Medicare prescription-drug act, the war resolution, and educational "reforms" — all destructive measures that wouldn't have passed without their support.

The Democrats were acting as though Bush had been elected with a 5 million-vote plurality and not, as was the case, with 5000,000 fewer popular votes than Al Gore. They weren't acting like an opposition party. They barely stood up to the president. When he asked for his unaffordable and immoral $1.6 trillion in tax cuts, they lay down and died. One-point-six trillion? they protested. Oh, no. Make it $1.25 trillion. And not a penny more...."

The Democrats were sweet-talked, they were bamboozled, and they were afraid. They thought that by accommodating the administration, they were somehow going to be okay. In doing so, they helped the Republican Party pass its far-right-wing agenda...." END SNIP

[WI_DEM]

1. He is right

I can't dispute this. He gave the party some spine finally, but now I'm afraid by what I've seen in the post-election period that we are on our way back to weak kneed democrats opposing Bushism. Of course there are noble exceptions, but not enough.

[Obviousman]

2. They are doing it again

Just take a look. The Democrats are basically falling apart at the seams

[AP]

3. Considering the Republicans control three branches of government,

the fourth estate, and maybe a fifth column, I think the Democrats have done a pretty admirable job.

It's more encouraging given that the fourth estate is leading Democratic voters around by their noses encouraging them to hate their own party (witness Daschle's loss).

[wyldwolf]

5. good answer!

I might also add that there is a contingent on the left doing the same.

[madfloridian]

7. When our party votes for things that are wrong....they are responsible.

I am affected by all these things that did not have to be. I make no apologies for being cross. I don't "hate" my party. I love my country more.

Making me feel guilty for being upset is just ridiculous. We are at a turning point in our party, if there is to be one left.

Why did all those senators vote for that bill yesterday? You know,the one with the abortion stuff in it? I know, because they really really trust Frist to make it right. Sure, he will. He's one of the good guys.

[sangh0]

21. Do you like school vouchers?

I noticed you didn't speak one word about how the Democrats successfully fought to eliminate school voucher provisions from NCLB.

I guess you just don't care about school vouchers because I have yet to see YOU "stand up" about it, or show any support for the Dems opposition to it, or any recognition of an instance when they did stand up and fight, and succeeded.

The constant refusal to recognize, and reward, the achievements of the Dems is consistent with the behavior of those who wish to demonize Democrats. The focus on punishment for transgressions, no matter how slight (such as Clinton's saying he's the only American likes both Kerry AND bush*) is reminiscent of the fundamentalists desire for complete obediance to THEIR (im)moral agenda

[Selwynn]

57. I guess that success just feels a little undercut by scores of failures...

I agree that we should be as critically reflective as possible about both the successes and failures of the democratic party. But it seems to me, that if we were to be truly reflective, we would have to give a thorough evaluation to the party - a scorecard if you will. The fight against school vouchers would go in the plus column.

I guess that for some of us, we just feel that there are too many (an overwhelming amount) of things in the minus column - I think some of us feel that the party gets a failing grade. A failing grade doesn't necessarily mean you got no answers right on the test. It might mean you scored a 33%. A 33% is still failing, and should raise a red flag, in my opinion.

Perhaps I/we are wrong in those feelings, but they don't come from the domain of utter irrationality - they come from a certain perspective and our analysis of issues that we think really matter.

[sangh0]

109. If it feels "undercut"

that might be because of the unwavering focus on the failures of the Dems and the successes of the repukes.

As thougtful as you have been, I see nothing in that post but a defense of defeatism and negativity based on the idea that "What do you expect from depressed and angry people?"

My response "A little objectivity and an open mind"

Perhaps I/we are wrong in those feelings, but they don't come from the domain of utter irrationality - they come from a certain perspective and our analysis of issues that we think really matter.

Which is why I don't call them utter irrationality. However, though there may be reasons for it, that doesn't mean that it's immune from criticism for being so one-sided. And I come from pretty much the same perspective and I care just as much about those issues. What I don't understand is how some Dems can ignore or discount the importance of vouchers while criticizing other Dems for discounting THEIR concerns.

[Selwynn]

125. Or it could be because the number of wrongs outweigh the number or rights

There is no defeatism in my voice. Only a careful and practical consideration of my satistifaction with the report card of the party.

[sangh0]

127. You can't know that without taking inventory

and as some of the posts show, some people are unwilling to look at info that doesn't support that position.

I don't know why you would defend that.

There is no defeatism in my voice. Only a careful and practical consideration of my satistifaction with the report card of the party.

I didn't say you, but there are definitely posters in this thread who will ignore the accomplishments in order to focus on the losses.

[Selwynn]

128. Who says that I am not taking inventory?

I understand what you're saying, I understand you're not specifically talking about me, I understand the validity of the point you are trying to make as well. :)

Sel

[sangh0]

130. Again, it's not about YOU Selwynn

but there are obviously others who are not willing to take both sides into consideration, even if YOU are.

[CAcyclist]

62. The elimination of school vouchers is a pretty weak

benefit.

I agree with your last line but I disagree that the mere removal of school vouchers is anything to be especially proud of.

[AP]

95. Vouchers would destroy public education.

[Cheswick2.0]

169. NCLB IS destroying public education

vouchers were a small part of that bill.

[sangh0]

110. SO you're willing to "give up" on liberal issues

while criticizing other Dems for "giving up" on YOUR issues.

[Nicky Scarfo]

96. The Repugs win because of their ideological purity and their willingness

to engage in self-criticism on a strategic level. True believers liek you just want to blame someone else, and not engage in any constructive self-criticism. Instead of bitching about Rove and Norquist, we should be learning from their strategy and tactics. Dean's got the balls and the brains to think critically and take the actions necessary to win. The corporate DLC hacks and ideologically wishy-washy operatives must be purged.

[Cheswick2.0]

168. they fought school vouchers...big deal

really, big freakin deal

[knight_of_the_star]

163. I don't like what the Party LEADERSHIP has done

I do certainly respect the few bold Senators who voted against BOTH the 87 billion and IWR (Sen. Boxer is one of them!). I do NOT respect the ones who have willingly folded, however.

[shance]

8. Considering we won this election, Id say they went along for the ride.

Or atleast many of them did.

It may not effect John Kerry, but it will the majority of Americans.

What else can one thoughtfully conclude?

[stopbush]

9. I think you missed Dean's point.

IF the Dems had acted like a true opposition party from Day 1, the R's wouldn't be in the position of power you describe. Certainly, after Jeffords defected and handed the Senate back to the Dems, we failed to leverage that windfall, getting massacred in the 2002 midterms. And don't tell me "9/11 changed everything." The Dems let bushco redefine THAT horror to their advantage as well. I well remember * standing in front of Congress and saying "you're either with us or against us." I was screaming at the TV for someone to shout him down. That incident set the stage for the next 3 years.

It's sad to say, but save for the consistently spine-ful Dems like Robert Byrd and Paul Wellstone, the Dems have too often acted like the party of appeasement. That is the one trait Joe Sixpack can't abide, and that's why we keep losing when it counts.

[AP]

25. And your evidence of this is what?

The way people abandoned bush in the last election?

[fujiyama]

16. Not too impressive for the most part

I understand that on certain issues (like say a ban on the so called partial birth abortion), certain Dems won't keep in line with Democrats, because they come from conservative states. That's frustrating but that's how politics works.

But we've seen way too many voting defections on key issues. It's nuts. Why are Democrats approving Bush's budget for example? Why have so many senators that come from blue states voting for Bush's agenda?

On the issues listed above, the party has rolled over. The only area where I think Dems have done a decent job is on judicial nominees.

[immoderate]

97. Seems like appeasement didn't help us.

We could not have done worse.
--IMM

[Protagoras]

28. Well said AP

Now the question is...which part needs to be addressed first? Can it be addressed? Without the media can we win? The internet is only here for us till it's regulated and bought out from under us...then what will be left?

[AP]

29. I really don't know the way out, but there are two things that I keep...

thinking about. One is Star Wars. When they kill your aunt and uncle, blow up your planet, and cut off your hand, if you react impulsively with anger, you're not going to win. You're going to become what you're fighting. Luke didn't blow up the death star by going crazy unloading his lasers on an impenatrable hulking mass. He calmed down, and shot once into a a tiny air vent.

You have to be smart, calm and calculated if you're going to win against such long odds. And it's usually the case that you're going to win by exploiting some little weakness that you wouldn't have recognized otherwise.

The other thing I think of a lot lately are the lyrics to He Got Game by Public Enemy. "It might feel good/ it might sound a little somethin'/but damn the game if it don't mean nothin."

I think a lot of things Democrats are saying right now here at DU they're saying because it feels good to let out a little anger. The slogans capturing their anger sound like they mean something powerful today. But to me, they don't mean anything unless they're going to get you where you want to go. And we're not going to get there with prayers laced with fear and anger.


Chorus:

It might feel good
it might sound a little somethin'
but damn the game if it don't mean nothin
what is game who got game
where's the game in life behind the game behind the game
I got game
she's got game
we got game
they got game
he got game
it might feel good
or sound a little somethin
but fuck the game if it ain't saying nothin


Chuck D:

if man is the father the son is the center of the earth
in the middle of the universe
then why is this verse coming six times rehearsed
I don't freestyle much but write 'em like such (word)
amongst times controlled by the screen
what does it all mean all this shit I'm seeing
human beings screaming vocal javelins
sign of the local nigga unravelling
my wonderin' got my ass wonderin'
where Christ is in all this crisis
hating satan never knew what nice is
check the paper while I bet on ices
keep more than your eye can see and ears can hear
year by year all the sense disappears
nonsense preserves prayers laced with fear
beware the two triple o is near

Stephen Stills:

there is something happening here
what it is ain't exactly clear
there's a man with a gun over there
tellin' me I got to beware
it's time to stop children what's that sound
everybody look what's going down

Chuck D:

thought of that millenium just be killing them
it scary like lies buried in a library
when did state pen correct anything
when piles of us still be catchin' the bus
when stacks of cash packed in laundramats
pay the preachers back where the teachers at
I ain't even gotta ask it
whose underpaid and got fouled at the basket
I can't blame the envy at who be getting all the benjis
and taking them grants for granted
last I checked pyramids wasn't built like projects
on them government checks
modern day thugs ain't got no guts
pardon the expression under governor nuts
last time in a church be the last time in a church
dead pledge allegiance to cd's and movies
leaving reality believing in fantasy
bleeding fatalaties too many formalities
prayers laced with fear
beware the two trip zero is here

[madfloridian]

30. I have a very righteous anger.

I make no apologies for it. When something is broken, you can do two things. You can sit and look at it, say it is not broken, and keep on the same way.

Or you can sit and look and think and realize it is not working, figure out what is wrong, point out what is wrong, and then proceed to fix it the best way you can.

There is NO excuse for our being in this war that is draining our economy and turning the world against us. It did not have to be done.

They had almost two years of seeing Bush in operation before they voted for that war....they knew he was not going to be wise about decisions.

I am tired of being put down for being a Dean supporter when he worked his butt off for Kerry/Edwards....and they shunned him because of his outspokenness. Kept him in the background near the end.

I am tired of being called an attacker when I am questioning the party's leadership. Shame on you for sounding like they took it all away from us. AP, we gave it to them, little by little for a long time. When you quit questioning, you have a dictatorship. Guess what, we are almost there.

[AP]

94. I'll be looking for the ventilator intakes.

[bvar22]

116. Star Wars ...

...IS fiction. But keep looking for the One Easy Miracle Cure. The Resistance in Star Wars actually opposed something, were a co-ordinated group with specific objectives, and had LEADERS who FOUGHT for their beliefs.

[AP]

119. Perhaps in Star Wars when some of the resistance were saying

"Hey, lets take a look at the ventilator shafts," others were saying, "Ventilator shafts!?" This is what passes for leadership? Lets just go out there with every ship we have and shoot at the thing until we all die. Now that's what real leadership is about! Psst. Do you know that Luke and Leia are related to Vader? I don't trust them. Let's vote for Han. I know some people think he's a craven opportunist, but at least he's not afraid to shoot a guy from under the table."

[bvar22]

123. Once again, Star Wars is FICTION....

...a CARTOON!
I will support ANYONE who wants to look for the ventilators, but
I WILL NOT support a defensive strategy based on an easy Miracle Cure.
The problem with your cartoon is that it IGNORES REALITY and bets the Family Farm on Wishful Thinking.

Lets just stumble along in blissful ignorance, endorsing the status quo in the secure knowlege that in the Final Scene, a HERO will emerge who will find the magical Achilles Heel and through an act of individual courage, will save America.
We don't really need to actually DO anything. Everything is fine.


"Luke...LUKE... Where are you????"

[AP]

124. It's an allegory. And it's as instructive as anything else.

You have to wonder what works of fiction are influencing some of the MISGUIDED political strategies which find their roots here at DU. My sense is that they're coming from some of the works of fiction printed here and in newspapers and broadcast on CNN in the guise of news.

And I never said, let's stumble along until someone happens upon the Achilles Heal.

I'm saying, let's not ingore the Achilles heal, and lets not do stupid things that get us father from taking advantage of it.

With all branches of the government and most branches of the private sector on their side, we're not going to win by swinging wildly and blindly at forces much greater than ours.

And we can all be heroes by realizing that and by working together to find the achilles heal.

[bvar22]

132. The WORKS that guide me...

...are the social reforms instituted by the Democratic Party under Franklin Roosevelt (and to a lesser extent the Trust Busting Teddy) which are not fiction.

I absolutely love Star Wars. I see it not so much an allegory as a representation of the Universal Myth. As such, it is very valid when applied to the INTERNAL transformation process a la Carl Jung. If we are to grow, we must all face our Demons (or Shadow). Only by facing the Shadow do we learn that it is a necessary part of our Psyche, and is a composite of ALL of our disowned pieces, like our fathers!
Myths, like Star Wars or Parsifal, are necessary guides for internal work, but are poor guides for Political, social, or military strategies.

Joseph Campbell agrees with me.

[AP]

135. Trust me. Star Wars is the illustration of and not the guide for strategy.

I'm only using it as a countergument to a strategy that, to me, seems to be based on false assumptions and a media that's provoking people to chasing white rabits down rabbit holes.

What came first for me, wasn't Star Wars. It was a political strategy to protect the middle class in the face of a pretty overwhelming opponent by winning elections. Star Wars merely serves as a useful illustration of what I'm trying to argue.

And if you want to talk about the best example of how anger doesn't work, you don't need Luke. You just need to look at what FDR did to win elections beginning in 1932. That's what informs my opinons.

(By the way, I'm reading about Pinochet, and while reading about him, I really get the impression that George Lucas must have been thinking about Chile when he wrote Star Wars.)

[Poor Richard Lex]

147. Nope - Star Wars is Myth

it is the tale of Achilles or David and Goliath

[ilovenicepeople]

44. The Left-Wing Media is the Internet and word of mouth,without the Internet

one can only talk so loud.Is it true that Diebold voting machines were used in the election of Kerry for Democratic Leader?I'm not theorizing to conspire,just a curious Canadian.:hi:

[CAcyclist]

71. Considering that the more the Democrats compromised

the more the Republicans were able to control,no, I don't think the Democratic Party has done an especially good job.

I see the DLC having sold out those of us at the base for money and power. They don't want to rock the boat because they don't want to give up the life they have and they have lost sight of what we could be.

We do need to stop the infighting and I am really not trying to add to it. We need to focus on our true enemy and that is the corporate influence in both the Democratic and Republican parties.

[Quill Pen]

118. Daschle deserved to lose

Daschle's craven go-along-to-get-along record was a disgrace. A Democrat who campaigns on an effete whimper of "b-b-but I vote a lot of the time with the President, I really do" deserves to get tossed out on his ass. That he ran such a half-assed campaign when he was one of the most powerful members of the Senate is even more tragic. There was a lot to lose, and he lost it.

I'm not happy we lost a seat; I'm just hoping Daschle learned the difference between bipartisanship and betrayal of core values.

[knight_of_the_star]

164. Exactly

The first thing I said to the lady sitting next to me at Dem HQ San Marcos when it was certain Daschle would go down in defeat was, "I don't like losing the seat, but Daschle got what he deserved."

[Cheswick2.0]

167. Dems have done virtually nothing, take that from someone who loves

my party.

[madrchsod]

4. he is right the dems rolled over-why? could it be

the first thing the bush Klan did was to try and kill a few senators and succeeded in killing several others? why hasn`t anyone mentioned the anthrax killings? it`s as if it never took place-someone tried to kill several us senators and nothing-absolutely no one cares

[Zhade]

75. Many won't even entertain the thought that Wellstone was assassinated.

Is it really a surprise?

"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." -- J. Edgar Hoover

[blm]

6. The majority of Democrats in Congress voted AGAINST the taxcuts.

And AGAINST the Medicare bill. Is Dean painting the whole party with the same brush? That's the problem with his remarks.

He is also a bit hypocritical when he, himself, supported a war resolution known as the Biden-Lugar bill, which had the same ESSENTIAL guidelines as the IWR, varying only in the timing of Bush's notification letter to Congress.

He also is on record as backing Bush's strategy during his biggest military blunder before Iraq, Tora Bora, instead of backing the few Democrats who vocally condemned Bush's tactics at the time.

This is where Dean's screed loses its credibilty, he wants to dump on ALL Dems for the votes of a minority. Let's also see him take some responsibility for his own actions that contributed to Bush's illusion of competent leadership during that time. Dean gets to have it both ways?

I agree with much of what he writes when he ISN'T generalizing, but, if he wants to be the voice of truth he shouldn't pretend that he wasn't part of the problem while claiming superiority over the Democratic party as a whole.

[madfloridian]

10. Then, doggone it, he better shut up. Right, blm.

You know perfectly well he is right about this. I am being affected severely by these votes now. My insurance has gone up drastically. My husband's cancer care is being affected by the damnable Medicare bill.

And don't evade the issue...if the Democrats had not gone along, even a "minority" of them....they could not have gotten all those things through.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. It's not that he'd better shut up..but he could tame his ego a bit

the minority of Dems that DID go along undermined the ones with a spine and Dean is happy to demoralize the entire LOT of them for the sake of his ego.

DEAN for America..the DEAN dozen? Is any aspect of this movement NOT organized around his personality?

In the past I've TRIED to be supportive of Dean where his actions warranted it, but he is VERY divisive in his rhetoric..and that is to our disadvantage.

[madfloridian]

17. Not Dean for America. Dean Dozen is like Kos Dozen.

It has not been Dean for America since February. Kos has a dozen, not a personality cult either.

I have a feeling there will be more divisive rhetoric from their side. I am terribly afraid that their side simply won't be nice.

The divisive rhetoric does not scare me as much as the party rolling over and giving up power on issues they could have stopped.

I am sorry, but I see more of the same coming round the bend from our party. They let the bill through yesterday with anti-abortion language in it because they trust Bill Frist to make it right.

Yes, NSMA, if we are nice and not divisive it will all work out. Sorry for the sarcasm, but it is hitting home for those of us who are seniors and those who need cancer drug care.

[CAcyclist]

85. Well, I for one, am darn glad you are willing to stand up

for Dean. I'm right here with you.

[Selwynn]

98. Sometimes division is needed.

I am not going to go through another four years of forced lockstep synthetic unity because Bush is so bad. There are divisions in the party, and what is really to our disadvantage is to keep sweeping them under the rug rather than dealing with them.

It's time to clean house. It's time to solidify clearly what this party is for, and push out those who don't share that agenda - I say that as one who fully expects to be pushed out, though I don't want that.

Fake unity is more disadvantageous than real unity - and we don't have real unity right now. So these factions of division need to take it outside, have a street brawl, settle it, then let the victor go back in and lead the party and let the loser move on. Again, I say that as a person who expects to be a loser, though I don't want that.

[blm]

106. And HONESTY would help at ALL times.

Dean has great leadership skills, but, he should rely on the FACTS and not conjecture or spin. That type of attack is not needed and pursues a FALSE division. We need another FALSE division like we need 61 GOP senators.

[Selwynn]

108. Once again, see post #57

[Cheswick2.0]

171. Dean is not any more divisive than you or Kerry or blm or anyone else

Don't give me that cult of personality crap. What is divisive is people in the party who would rather hold on to what little power they have rather than do what is right for the population. THEY have divided us.

Don't blame Dean for being demoralized. That is a cop out, we're all demoralized. But I'll bet I am more demoralized because I spent months working for a candidate I didn't like or trust because I felt it was the best thing to do for my country. And yet I still have to come to this message board and read this nonsense from you.
What bothers you more, the fact that people respond to Dean's "personality" or the fact that Kerry doesn't have one for anyone to respond to?

You know as well as I do that politics is about having a message that people respond to. Dean's message (substitute personality if you must) was so strong Kerry started using parts of Dean's stump speech. That is why there is an organization called Democracy for America which helped hundreds of people run for office. Can you really possibly object to that?

John Kerry has done NOTHING through this whole election process that someone else didn't do first. If this recount somehow pulls him through, it will be because other people started the fight and he joined later. Even this he couldn't lead on. If the recount doesn't pull him through, at the very least it will expose the system for being corrupt. It will cast an air of illegitimacy on Bush. Even this Kerry couldn't lead on.

[blm]

19. No, he shouldn't shut up, but, he should be more honest. Blaming ALL for

the votes of a minority is just wrongheaded and makes a false claim of superiority on his part when his record tells a different story.

That IS the issue. No evasion necessary.

[sangh0]

22. Does Dean give Dem credit for eliminating school vouchers?

Or does Dean merely prefer divisive arguments over an objective analysis of the Dems failures *AND* successes?

[Zomby Woof]

11. I love you, blm

Still stickin' it to the Dean supporters with the TRUTH. :thumbsup: :hi:

[Lorien]

27. Enough already

It's OK to bash Dean, but hands off the Holy One, Kerry? Please. :eyes:

[lastliberalintexas]

131. I see the Dean hatred gets worse

Sweetie, your own guy from the primaries refutes the bilge that blm always repeats. Just so you know- because apparently you don't-Kucinich disagrees that the Biden Lugar was the same thing as the IWR.

But I know facts and truth don't matter, so long as it means you can bash Dean or his supporters.

Seriously, hobbies are nice.

[Cheswick2.0]

174. Zomby only pretended to support DK

so he could attack Dean from the "left".

[Cheswick2.0]

173. You wouldn't know the truth

if it appeared to you in a John Kerry disquise.

[stopbush]

12. Valid points well taken.

I agree that it can be a bit misleading when Dean applies the broad brush to all Dems. My take is that he's *maybe* avoiding falling into the "nuance trap" that seems to doom Dem spokesmen with the chattle. A few broadly painted assessments and objectives may be exactly what we need at this time. Did I say may be?

[madfloridian]

15. The party rolled over. Some individuals did not. They are responsible.

Nuance, nuance.

What he said is true, our party helped in passing those bills. It is the truth. I am amazed at how many are upset with me over the fact that they voted for these things.

Look what they did yesterday.

[stopbush]

18. Yep. I supported Dean with cash and canvassing.

I supported Kerry with cash but couldn't do much more (I had finally landed a job after 3 years of unemployment...my free time got limited really quick).

Dean has been effectively marginalized by the media with most of the country, probably even with the majority of Dems and quasi-Dems. The guy could go to the mideast and solve the Israeli/Palesinian conflict, bring peace to Iraq and develop a succesful strategy to fix the US economy in a month...and if he ran for pres in '08, it would be the Dean scream 24/7 in the media.

I look for his book to be reviewed as "I told ya so sour grapes."

[Lorien]

26. Always there to bash Dean

I worked like hell for YOUR candidate in the name of party unity. Look at where it got me.Enough with bashing MY candidate, already!

No more DLC for me. I'm sick of being on the losing side!

[blm]

33. I'm not bashing Dean. I'm promoting honest analysis based on FACTS.

Why should my honest appraisal be called bashing? I use no generalizations and make no charges that aren't backed by facts.

On the other hand, Dean DOES make charges that are general while not being completely forthcoming on his own record with the DLC and you have no problem with THAT form of real bashing of Democrats as long as it's Dean doing the bashing?


I find it odd that you would come down on me that way. I have never been dishonest or ever attacked Dean based on perception or demagoguery that the media used against him.

Fair play all around would be constuctive and forward looking.

[lastliberalintexas]

133. Honest analysis?

Then why are you repeating your line that the IWR was the same thing as the Biden Lugar? Why did Kerry himself have a preference for the Biden Lugar if they were the same darn thing? Why did the Dem leadership and the ACLU prefer the Biden Lugar if they were the same thing? Maybe because they weren't.

[blm]

141. Why change my words to make your case?

I never said they were the same. EVER. People claim I say it to distort the point. i said they were not substantially different and all the KEY elements were the same. The only difference was in the timetable for Bush's letter informing Congress of his decision. Biden-Lugar would have led to the exact same war as the IWR. The IWR would have prevented war if Bush had followed its guidelines. The inspections should have prevented an invasion. He didn't allow them the time to succeed.


btw...that ACLU piece was right BEFORE aspects of the Biden-Lugar version were added to the final version of the IWR.

[lastliberalintexas]

182. At the very least, you always imply it, blm

And you used to state very explicitly that they were the same. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the inclination to do a search of your posts to prove that. People can believe what they want, I guess. Or else they can do a search of their own.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

114. Many in the DLC supported Dean...

...some (like me) still do.

But I also recognize that he isn't flawless. Two things bug me about the man. First, he attacks all Democrats for the actions of a relative handful - usually people who have gotten themselves elected in GOP dominated states. And more importantly, he seems not to understand that any statement a Democratic candidate makes will be twisted by the GOP owned media to look as bad as possible. As Michael Kinley stated, "A gaffe is when a politician accidentally tells the truth". And Dean committed too many gaffes last time. The "Dean Scream" wasn't the first - it was simply the most primal.

If he starts showing that he's learned those lessons, I'd seriously consider working for (and donating to) him again for the nomination. If he continues these attacks on Democrats that are hanging on by their nails, serving only to push us further into the minority, they I certainly won't.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[lojasmo]

45. What about NCLB? The IWR, patriot act?

What are the breakdowns on all these issues.

A shamefull number of democrats supported four of the most regressive pieces of legislation to have passed in my lifetime. Dean is RIGHT ON here. Perhaps not a nuanced position, but one that is unquestionably forthright.

[blm]

104. Dean was FOR the Patriot Act when it passed

and he was FOR the Biden-Lugar version of the IWR at the time.

Re Patriot Act, Dean, while Gov of Vermont, SUGGESTED a Patriot Act and the reassessment of civil liberties just a few days after 9-11.

You don't expect more honesty from Dean in regard to his own actual positions AT THE TIME while he bashes the entire Democratic party?

[lojasmo]

105. Dean wasn't in congress.

It is easy for a private citizen to have this or that opinion. When you have been elected to be part of the legislature, you are charged with being part of a system of checks and balances. This is especially important when you are sitting as a democrat during a republican administration.

Dean has never hidden his opinions on the issues.

[blm]

112. He wasn't a private citizen, he was a Governor.

And the greater point is that he is criticizing Democrats for voting yes on the very issues that he was for.

Now, I do believe that he is sincere about getting rid of the onerous aspects in the Patriot Act, just as other Democrats in Congress are and put forth that legislation in Dec.2003 (Kerry w/ Sununu-R). But, his wholesale paintbrushing of the Dem party is NOT constructive. He should refarme his criticisms based on the facts, including his own participation in the earlier debates on these issues, whereas he is apparently less forthcoming.

[lojasmo]

136. He wasn't "FOR" any of those bills

He supported Lugar-Biden which was a substantially different bill than the one that eventually got passed.

He talked about changing the intelligence community after 9-11, and rightfully so, as it allowed 9-11 to occur.

As I said before, congress has a duty to protect the citizenry from disasterous policies like the one that the bush administration has set forth.

It rests, especially so, on the "liberals" in congress to stand up for democratic values. Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, clinton (yada yada yada) failed miserably to stop Bush's rush to war. In fact, they almost fell over themselves to push this horrible legislation forward. It's pathetic. If you don't feel it's constructive, that's your right, but somebody had damn well better point it out. I'm fine with that person being Howard Dean.

[blm]

139. He talked about the CURTAILING of civil rights after 9-11.

In fact, he did so on 9-12. He said nothing then about intelligence.

And to set the record straight, I am all for Dean speaking up and speaking loud and often. I just want him to be more honest and generalize less when attacking the other Democrats.

First Amendment advocates fear erosion of rights in aftermath of attacks

By Jean Patman
freedomforum.org

09.14.01

In the aftermath of the worst terrorist attack in America, First Amendment proponents expect and fear that the nation's heightened national security concerns will soon overpower some of its basic freedoms.

The drumroll in that direction has grown louder each day since chaos descended on New York and Washington, D.C., on Sept. 11:

* Only hours after the attacks, the FBI reportedly began installing its controversial Carnivore system at some Internet providers to monitor and record electronic communications, particularly seeking accounts with Arabic names. On the day of the attacks, an ABC-Washington Post poll found that 66% of Americans would willingly give up some civil liberties to combat terrorism.

* On Sept. 12, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld publicly cautioned that divulging classified intelligence could hinder the government's efforts to track down those responsible and could put military personnel at risk. His remarks heightened expectation that the "classified leaks" bill, which would criminalize intelligence leaks, could be swiftly revived after being shelved only last week.

* On Sept. 12, Vermont's governor, Howard Dean, said at a news conference that the crisis would require "a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties."

* The U.S. Senate approved legislation yesterday that would make it easier for the FBI to obtain warrants for electronic eavesdropping. And Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., saying that civil libertarians in the past had blocked legislation essential in a terrorism fight, vowed to push for laws to make search and surveillance easier in domestic intelligence-gathering efforts.

* Also yesterday, House Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt, D-Mo., echoing earlier remarks by Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., warned that an erosion of civil liberties would be inevitable. "We're in a new world where we have to rebalance freedom and security," he said, according to The Washington Post.


None of this surprises those interviewed by freedomforum.org over the past two days, but it does very much concern them.
>>>>>>>
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=14891&printerfriendly=1

[lojasmo]

140. Wrong

The quote you cite belies the dishonesty of your opinion.

9-11 would require "a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties."

True enough, I think, but not the same as voting for the Patriot act, voting for the war, voting for NCLB, bush's tax cuts, etc....

The democrats in our legislature have let us down. It's pathetic.

[blm]

142. It's all part of what led to the Patriot Act. He never campaigned against

the Patriot Act, or chose to speak up against it at the time, did he?

And the whole point of my overall argument is that Dean is painting with a broad brush based on the votes of a minority of Dems, and is less than forthcoming about his own earlier support for Bush, including siding with Bush over the few Democrats who tried to expose Bush's failed strategy at Tora Bora, the most SIGNIFICANT military blunder at the time.

Bottom line: You are fine with his use of generalizations in his attacks against the entire party, and I am not. I find that type of attack builds unnecessary resentment.

[lojasmo]

143. Minority of Democrats?

The IWR passed 77-23 in the senate. 21 Democrats against, 28 for
NCLB passed 88-10 in the senate 8 democrats against (you do the math)
Patriot act passed 98-1 Feinstein voted against.

How the hell to you characterize this as a minority of democrats?

Dean is spot on.

[blm]

144. They were blamed for the taxcuts. The majority did NOT vote for them.

Not ONE of the other candidates even voted for Bush's taxcut but, that never stopped the accusations that they did, did it?

Dems are all blamed for NCLB, but left unnoted is that they railed against NCLB and Bush on when he failed to fund it.

I'm looking forward to you proving that Dean was against the Patriot Act at the time and that the Biden-Lugar bill would have prevented the Iraq war in any form different than the IWR. When you do I will gladly join you in saying that Dean is "spot on" and has not fudged one bit in his attack on the Democratic party.

[lojasmo]

145. Nope I'm done

A vast majority of the democrats in the senate voted for NCLB, the IWR, and the USA Patriot act.

i've disproven your "minority of dems" BS. The tempest in a teapot that the democrats raise after rubber stamping bush's agenda is just that. All sound and fury signifying nothing. Most of the democratic establishment has no place criticizing bush as they were complicit in passing the legislation.

As you see, a vast majority of democrats in the senate voted for Bush's crapfest, Dean is right to criticize in broad strokes.

On edit, I was wrong about the tax cuts. Sorry.

[blm]

146. Broad strokes against Dems is a GOP tactic. Dean is better than that.

And I NEVER expected you to prove that Dean was against the Patriot Act at the time or the Biden-Lugar bill would have stopped Bush from going to Iraq because it CAN'T BE DONE.

Fair is fair. That's all I expect from anyone for our side.

[lojasmo]

148. Broad strokes are called for when there are large walls

of malfeasance to paint. The democratic caucus TOTALLY dropped the ball on the IWR, NCLB and the patriot act. Attention needs to be brought to bear on that failure. Somebody has to be the bad guy. I'm okay with Dean taking that job on.


You never proved that dean supported the patriot act. All you did was find a quote where he said that we need to question the necessity of SOME of our civil liberties. The burden is on YOU to prove that he supported the patriot act.

Lugar Biden was a different bill than the one that passed. It is impossible to know what would have happened if Lugar Biden had passed.

Bush certainly didn't go for Lugar-Biden calling it weaker than previous bills on Iraq. It may very well have constrained his actions when the IWR failed to do so.

[sangh0]

151. IOW, the beatings will continue until morale improves

Maybe they don't do what we want because when they do, it's ignored.

[lojasmo]

153. LOL specious reasoning

When did the democrats do what we want?

What is it that we want? Looking around this site, I'd be hard pressed to find a consensus.

I'm damned sure I didn't want the IWR, the patriot act, nor NCLB.

[sangh0]

154. Did you want DIckerson to become a judge for life?

Did you want the PATRIOT Act to be permanent?

Did you want Rice to testify to the 9/11 commission?

Did you want the Plame scandal investigated?

Did you want middle-class tax cuts?

Did you want school vouchers defeated?

Did you want the Bankruptcy Bill defeated?

Did you want bush*'s energy bill defeated?

Did you want SS privitization defeated?

Did you want Tort Reform defeated?

Did you want Halliburton investigated?

[lojasmo]

157. well sure,

But those issues are trifling compared to the war and the patriot act.

Now we are absolutely screwed. The democratic leadership has placed an absolute diseaster as minority leader of the house.

We have lost EVERY branch of government, and the republican party has learned to disenfranchise democratic voting blocks with impunity.

MOST democrats aren't even talking about what a disaster it's been, and won't hear any criticism of the candidates or their message.

With the DLC in charge, the democrats are now going to capitulate even more roundly in order to remain "electable"

Can't rock the boat in washington. :eyes:

It's a sad, sad state.

[sangh0]

158. "trifling" says it all

.

[lojasmo]

159. of scant significance.

[sangh0]

160. Plame scandal? "of scant significance"

even better.

Keep talking

[lojasmo]

165. Tell me the real life significance to anybody but V.P.

Also, tell me what has happened in this "investigation" of which you speak. What has come of it? Novak is still on the air, and nobody from the white house is in jail, or even indicted. So far, the democrat's action on this has ammounted to absolutely nothing.

[Cheswick2.0]

175. bullshit

Your attempts to mischaracterize Dean are pathetic.

[Selwynn]

99. BLM, Post #57 is for you too.

[Cheswick2.0]

172. now you are back to just making stuff up

Keep attacking Dean. Kerry voted to kill thousands of innocent Iraqis so he could run for President. Top that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. The Democrats sold out in hope of being "electable".

The most heinous example being the IWR vote. Dean is right. Ironically, the senators and reps who voted against this crap were apparantly successful in winning their races while some of the more notorious accomodationists like Daschle are out of work.

[gulfcoastliberal]

20. They approved that disgusting spending bill last night - they don't stop..

...enabling Bush, that is.

I'm almost ready to give up hope on these fucks. Reid is going to make Daschle look like a rabid obstrucionist.

[Skidmore]

23. Yes, this is why I caucused for Dean, and if that makes me the horrible

"P" word (progressive), then progressive I am. Although I don't think there is consensus on this forum at all as to the meanings of the labels that people deride each other with, I will happily embrace this one if it means that someone stands up and fights for principles. This is the fault line in the Democratic party. If you still won't stand up and fight the hard fight now, then when will you fight? The only squawking I heard with that disgraceful appropriations bill was when some politico pointed out to a Senator that the tax investigation language would someone to investigate tax information of a political candidate. Only when it hurt them, did they get it. I'm still not convinced they understand what the nation fears at the hands of this administration and Congress.

[Pepper32]

24. Could the Democrats be rolling over because they are in bed with them?

I really have to wonder. I hope I'm wrong.

[madfloridian]

31. We need to ask ourselves.....

that very question.

:hi:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

35. Can you

come up with anything besides school vouchers? Is the stopping of vouchers the end all be all of what will make this country right again? In the scheme of things, and for the record I was completely againt vouchers, school vouchers are really the least of our problems.

[sangh0]

36. Middle class tax cuts. Do you care about MCTC's?

And how about defeating the nominations of numerous rightwing extremists to lifetime appointments on the Federal judiciary? Doesn't that count for something?

[bvar22]

40. Exactly HOW MANY right wing judges were blocked?

..and how many of those that were blocked were later installed by recess apointment?

You are really grasping at straws here.

[sangh0]

50. Can you say "lifetime appointment"?

Because recess appts last only for one year. If the Dems hadn't blocked bush*, they'd be in there for LIFE.

But I guess you don't care about that, seeing as how you completely ignored the difference between a recess appt, and a lifetime one.

[Selwynn]

58. See my post #57 (its above, in near the top, in response to you)

[bvar22]

93. The Democrats have rubberstamped over 165 bush*...

...conservative judicial appointments. They blocked less than 1%, of which at least 3 were given recess appointments.
I would call the Democratic Party's performance less than effective.

The responsibility for this failure is with the current Leadership of the Democratic Party. It's time to fire the Old Guard and put someone with fire and balls in charge.

[sangh0]

115. Can you say "lifetime appointments"??

I noticed you fail to distinguish between recess appts and lifetime appts.

BTW, how many appointments have YOU stopped?

[bvar22]

120. Once again, you are grasping at straws.

The list of Democratic Party successes is VERY SHORT, but using this as a VICTORY for Dems is reaching too far.

1) The judges you point to for Democratic Successes are RIGHT NOW SITTING ON THE BENCH (some success!) When the Recess Appointments run out, what do you think bush* is going to do? More importantly, what do you think the Opposition Party is going to do?

Recess Appointments are a smack in the FACE to an Opposition Party, a grievous insult, a Declaration of WAR. Aside from a few rather pathetic performances for the cameras by the Dem Leadership.....nothing. The Democratic Party leadership is STILL REACHING out to the Republicans in the spirit of bipartisan unity and compromise!!!

YOU FAILED to address the FACT that the Democratic Party opposed less than 1% of the right wing judicial nominees.


3)Even though I have failed to stop any judicial appointments, I have OPPOSED ALL of THEM! More importantly, I support Democrats who will oppose these nominations, not elephants in Donkey Suits!

2)Middle Class Tax Breaks???
The Democratic Party would have been in a better position for 2004 had they NOT FOUGHT for this. The benefit for the Middle Class was next to nil, but let bush* campaign on "tax breaks for everybody!"
MCTB was a Pyhrric Victory.


I am not bashing for the sake of bashing. I take no pleasure in this. I am not a Dean supporter. I love the Democratic Party, but I believe that the Democratic Party is very, very ill. Ignoring the symptoms or rationalizing the lack of effective leadership will only make things worse.

http://www.pdamerica.org/

[sangh0]

129. You're graping

The list of Democratic Party successes is VERY SHORT...

Off the top of my head:

There are also middle-class tax cuts,
stopping the tax cuts for the rich to be made permanent,
releasing the August 2001 PDP,
getting Rice to testify under oath to the 9/11 commission,
having a 9/11 commission, extending the time for 9/11 commission,
getting Kissinger OFF the 9/11 commission,
getting bush* to be interviewd by the 9/11 commission,
getting the courts to say that bush* could not hold "enemy combatants" without giving them access to the courts,
killing Malpractice Reform,
killing the Bankruptcy Bill,
stopping the elimination of the Estate Tax,
and killing school vouchers

SO what have YOU accomplished to match this

Recess Appointments are a smack in the FACE to an Opposition Party, a grievous insult, a Declaration of WAR.

If you consider recess appts to be VERY AGGRESSIVE, then you should be complimenting the Dems for being VERY AGGRESSIVE. Clinton was the one who brought back the use of recess appts with Bill Lann Lee.

I take no pleasure in this.

You also fail to look at BOTH sides of the argument, which reveals a weakness in your argument.

[bvar22]

161. Your list is embarrassing. Still grasping for straws.

1) Middle Class Tax Cuts:a crumb for the middle class. Slightly reduced the monthly payment for the Middle Class while giving a bonanza to the already rich. Worse, the tax victory won by the Democrats IN REALITY shifts a greater per centage of the Tax Burden onto the backs of the Middle Class. At Best, a CYA Pyhrric Victory.

2) Stopping the Tax Cut from being made permanent: This will soon rear its ugly head again, but kudos to the Dems.

3) Getting ther PDB Released: to what net effect??? a minor PR coup. No substanitive or lasting effect. Dems unable to effectively use this. It did LOOK GOOD on TV.

4) Getting Rice to testify... See #3. So what? This should not have even been an issue. A great Deal of the PR Work for this was done by people OUTSIDE of our beltway Democrats. The Dems really just surfed in on a gimme.

5) Having a 911 Commission: Wouldn't have happened if left up to the Dems. Again, bush* agreed because of a popular uprising OUTSIDE the Democratic Party.

6) Kissinger Off... see 3, 4, and 5.

7) Getting bush* interviewed by 911... You aren't really going to use this as a Democratic Victory. This was most embarrassing for the Dems. They looked pathetic and weak when they agreed to let him testify.not under oath, in secret, no notes, gag order, and sitting on Cheney's lap. Man, the Dems were abused by the republicabs here. If the Democratic Leadership had ANY gonads they would have walked outholding their noses. This was one of the MOST embarrassing displays of capitulation during the last 4 years!

8) bush* cannot hold "enemy combatants"... This was a
Constitutional victory implemented by the Judiciary, not a victory for the elected Democrats. I don't remember the Party Leadership raising ANY Hell about this issue besides a few light weight PR appearances for the TV. Give me a link.

9) Killing malpractice reform. Not dead yet, but kudos to the Dems for their part in slowing this obscinity down. The Trial Lawyer lobby to the DLC would have raised HELL if they had let this one through. Gotta protect the money tit.

10) Killing the Bankruptcy Bill This one is still VERY much alive. Versions have passed both houses WITH DLC support, and is currently in committee.

11) Stopping the elimination of the Estate Tax. Good fight. It'll be back.

12) Killing School Vouchers Again, good job, Democrats. I don't know enough about this particular Democratic Victory to comment


You Said:
"SO what have YOU accomplished to match this:
Completely Irrelevant. Red Herring


You said:
"If you consider recess appts to be VERY AGGRESSIVE, then you should be complimenting the Dems for being VERY AGGRESSIVE. Clinton was the one who brought back the use of recess appts with Bill Lann Lee."
This is also completely irrelevant to our discussion. But if it makes you feel better:Way to go Bill Clinton.
What is relevant here and now is the lack of ANY response from the Democratic Party in the HERE and NOW. Where is the OUTRAGE?


You said:
"You also fail to look at BOTH sides of the argument, which reveals a weakness in your argument."
This statement is simply UNTRUE, which reveals the weakness in YOUR argument.

[lastliberalintexas]

134. 1% of Bush nominees to the bench

I think 6 nominees to the federal bench were blocked, while over 98% of his nominees were appointed.

Between that and school vouchers, I'd say the republic has been saved! Woohoo! :eyes:

[sangh0]

149. 100% of the LIFETIME appointments

Funny how ALL of you are tring to ignore the "lifetime" part.

[lastliberalintexas]

185. Not quite, sangho

The almost 99% of Bush nominees which have been approved by the Senate are now there FOR LIFE. Dems did a good job of blocking a *few* of his nominees, but in raw numbers it means that only 6 (?) were actually blocked. Something like 165 were actually confimred (sorry I don't have the exact number). In fact, even Leahy was going out of his way to refute repub charges of obstructionism by pointing out just how many of Bush's nominees had actually been confirmed!

And I'm not talking about the 3 or 4 who we blocked who were later named as recess appointments, so please don't play that red herring. I AM talking about people who've been nominated and gone through the confirmation process and who are now on the bench for LIFE. I'm not quite sure why you apparently can't or won't see the difference.


on edit- BTW- do you understand that your post implies that Bush has not had a single, solitary nominee to the bench confirmed? Do you see just how misleading that is, considering that about 165-170 HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED? 100% of the lifetime appointments blocked my arse.

[KnowerOfLogic]

122. No, not when they're attached to obscene give-aways for the Super-Rich.

[sangh0]

150. So you prefer to have just the obscence give-aways for the Super-rich?

.

[KnowerOfLogic]

162. If it's going to happen anyway, at least dems could have stood

on principle. You know, people do notice when a party stands up for principle consistently; they also notice when a party compromises on issues of the highest magnitude in name of political expediency.

[JVS]

117. That's impossible!

;-)

[petepillow]

32. Dean's right, but a big reason is the major Repuke strategy:

1. Slip in in the dead of night and grab an opponent by their political nuts.

2. Twist until they give.

Every politician can be brought down by the Rove spin machine if it truly chooses to bring em down. Everyone in Washington knows this. And a few behind-the-scenes "talks" have turned more than a few dark foes into hugging-buddies. They only have to do it to enough people to get the votes they need.

[Meshuga]

37. I liked Dean when he first came out to campaign for the nomination BUT

This kind of divisive shit that comes out of Dean's mouth was what really turned me off about him. Generalizing is easy and I'm not very impressed by it.

He tries to sell himself as the "chosen one" or the "messiah" of the party and I can't believe people actually eat this up.

It's okay to be the Monday morning quarterback as long as Dean makes a more critical analysis of the situation instead of generalizing to make himself look better.

If Dean were anything like he wants to be perceived as, he would be the clear leader of the party by now. The problem is that most democrats can see through his bullshit.

[madfloridian]

38. Or vice versa.

He sees through theirs.

[Meshuga]

39. What I meant by Democrats

not the politicians but registered democrats. I'm glad that most can see through Dean's bullshit otherwise he'd be leading our party now.

But most see his game and it is not that impressive if you are able to see through his facade.

[madfloridian]

41. Baloney.

The word "most" just gave you away.

[Meshuga]

42. Gave me away?

If Dean were what he really wants people to think he is he'd be the clear leader of the party to take us to the right direction. But MOST see through his politics.

I'd love to see a "mad as hell/no BS" democrat step up and lead us from this point forward but I'm afraid Dean ain't it. It appears only Deaniacs still fall for his politics.

Saying the divisive stuff will only show that he is in this for himself or maybe show he is not able to critically analyse the current situation. If Dean came out without unfairly generalizing democrats for the action of a few it would be much easier to get behind him and support him for whatever role he wants to take.

[madfloridian]

43. When your party has fallen down on the job, they need to be criticized.

I intend to do so, and I won't stop.

[Meshuga]

47. Not saying you shouldn't

criticize. I will too but the way Dean puts it he is unfairly going after the entire group because the action or the lack of action of a few.

Dean did lots of generalizations during the primaries and I just don't see this as constructive.

[madfloridian]

80. Doesn't matter, you see. The time for being timid is over.

Yesterday our Democrats voted in a bill that has anti-abortion legislation in it...they knew it and voted anyway. Shame on them.

[sangh0]

138. They FORCED THE REPUKES to vote on it seperately

and because the DEMS STOOD UP for abortion rights, now anyone who wants to defund abortions will have to go on the record, instead of being able to use the budget bill for cover.

That is, if the facts count for anything with you.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

156. And thank God

people saw through him (not the politicians, the registered voters) and he's not leading the party. Because hot damn we we got another 4 years of Bush.

[lojasmo]

184. So you're pleased with how things turned out?

You'd rather have this than have Dean leading the party.

Sure you'd not be more at home elsewhere?

[Rose Siding]

46. I don't see him doing this at all

"He tries to sell himself as the "chosen one" or the "messiah" of the party and I can't believe people actually eat this up."

He's been very supportive of other Democrats in their races, from dog catcher to pres. His whole gig has been to encourage others to run for election or to get involved in any way they can.

He doesn't sugar coat his "analysis", it's true. But that's very appealing to see when everyone else is walking on eggs.

[Meshuga]

49. Not sugar coating his analysis is fine I also like that BUT

generalization in the analysis is what I'm having problems with.

Dean is not the person who can solve the problems with the party if he cannot provide us with some real critical analysis of the situation.

After the Kerry loss I actually felt the need for a Dean type candidate (or Dean himself) to take over the leadership but this kind of analysis is what turns me off about Dean.

[madfloridian]

68. Sounds like you never read his speeches or kept up.

Dean's biggest critics are people who have not heard him speak.

I have a page with his speeches and interviews. You might change your mind. He as real solutions, but no one wants to hear them.

Going after us is non-productive, it just makes us more ornery.

[Meshuga]

103. I never said Dean didn't have solutions

I don't have a problem with his criticism of colleagues and, depending on the situation, I really appreciate him speaking out.

However, the generalizations he uses (like in this thread) shows that it is nothing but pure politics. It's self promotion and it is quite unatractive besides being counterproductive.

I see that he can only sell this farce to Deaniacs who eat this up without making a critical analysis of the situation on their own.

Dean said it then it must be true. Darn those spineless Democrats! They are all the same! Dean is the only one with guts!

I'm glad Dean was not part of this congress otherwise he'd be just another spineless Democrat.

:eyes:

[Placebo]

48. I agree with you.

Quotes like:

"I don't want to listen to the fundamentalist preachers anymore."

"It seemed unlikely that he'd gone, in a matter of months, from moderation to the far side of the dark side of the American political spectrum."

He's just so condescending and divisive, I don't like it. Even though I agree with much of what he says. You can't be a successful national leader and use language like that. That's why he won't ever be DNC chair or President.

[newsguyatl]

52. yeh, you can't

be divisive and be president right :eyes:

b/c we don't have a divisive president now right? :eyes:

real good argument there

[Placebo]

53. Totally distorting what I actually said, as usual.

I said, "You can't be a successful national leader and use language like that."

Did I ever say you couldn't be elected president and be divisive? Did I ever say Bush wasn't or isn't?

Think before you type.

[newsguyatl]

56. as usual?

what the fuck are u talking about as usual?

the only as usual are your pointless, high schoolish posts...

[Placebo]

60. "high schoolish" because I don't agree with you?

And very smooth of you to dodge the fact that I called you on your blatant distortion of what I said.

I'm sure if I was lavishing praise upon Lord Dean you'd be singing a different tune. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is 'high schoolish' aka ignorant, unknowing, or stupid? See how far that attitude gets you. Oh wait, we saw how far it got your man Dean; a mere martyr for people like you.

[newsguyatl]

63. ummm, yeh, you're DEFINITELY a youngster

oh, and in your trying to be cutesy and a smartass with me, "mere martyr" makes no sense, kid.

an oxymoron.

which, taken the latter, makes perfect sense coming from you.

[Placebo]

69. You still haven't addressed why you distorted what I said.

All you can do is attack me personally. That makes you mature? :shrug:

[madfloridian]

70. You are out of line here.

You have been doing this all over the board. You do sound very immature, and you need to work on it. Mind you, I am not saying you are...I am saying it sounds that way.

[madfloridian]

64. Of course you can. Bush just did it, didn't he?

He won! Not a damn one of Democrats criticized him until Dean did last year. Very little condemnation, just appeasement and going along.

There is nothing wrong with Howard Dean except speaking things that others dare not say.

Every time our country has been in trouble, someone has come along. Right now, he appears to be the only one calling it like it is....the others are quiet.

[Placebo]

67. Did I say he couldn't win?

No, I didn't say that. I said you couldn't be 'successful'. If you dub Bush as successful just because he won the election? I hope not.

[redsoxliberal]

73. so, what? Vilsack will be more sucessful?

you're kidding, right? Dean is the only guy who was behind us this time, and he led the agenda. I am shocked he is not worshipped by Kerry and the like.

[Placebo]

79. HEY, Like I said, I agree with most of what Dean says...

but do I think he's the face of the Democratic party that we need to show to the nation? No. Do I think he would ever have a chance getting elected President? Absolutely not. Do I think he has the ability to 'bring the nation back together'? If you go by things he's said and written, no.

[redsoxliberal]

82. so, we should get vilsack, become yes-men

and, in the very near future, marginalized?

[Placebo]

88. And you think Dean is the answer?

What evidence is there of his success? Granted, there isn't much in favour of Vilsack either, but what specifically about Dean warrants him being the head of the DNC?

[redsoxliberal]

89. he has been right about everything!

he fires people up!

[sangh0]

137. Was he right when he supported Yucca Mountain?

Was he right when he OPPOSED Yucca Mountain?

Was he right when he SUPPORTED a Balanced Budget Amendment?

Was he right when he OPPOSED a Balanced Budget Amendment?

[madfloridian]

76. You sound very young. Are you?

Could you take the argument to a higher level,please?

[Placebo]

84. 'Higher Level' like this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2732682&mesg_id=2734572&page=

[madfloridian]

61. Hmmm....mmmm.....

How strange. Many of us who live here in the heart of fundamentalism loved that line. I cheered when I heard him say it. I knew how he felt. I had just been called unpatriotic by my minister for opposing the war.

I wonder if this is why he still draws overflow crowds? You think?

[newsguyatl]

65. me, too madfloridian!!

it just gave me chills when he said that line!

still does when i think about it.

he was the ONLY one speaking for US, and i'll never forget that.

[madfloridian]

78. It is good it was said. It is good what he said about the media.

And it is good what he is saying about the Democrats. If he were so wrong, the others would not have been using his lines almost verbatim.

[redsoxliberal]

86. you are right on the money. nt

[Placebo]

66. Such big crowds and such little to show for it.

Sad really.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redsoxliberal]

92. newguys, check us out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=244

A DFA forum on DU.

[madfloridian]

74. Say thank you to Clinton and DLC for that, my dear friend.

Very sad, very sad indeed. But worship seems to be ok in some cases.

I could tell you about the 1/2 million and growing still part of DFA, and totally on for the ride.

When you get like this, it makes me more passionate for changing things from the bottom up in the party.

People that act like you do are hurting our party badly.

[redsoxliberal]

77. I am a reform democrat, you obviously are not

I don't know someone who is in a party that has gotten shat on in the last two elections would not want change. Dean has to be the guy.

[Placebo]

81. Why does Dean 'have to be the guy' ?

[redsoxliberal]

83. because Vilsack is not. nt

[Placebo]

87. Well pull your head out of the sand, for better or worse...

Dean won't be head of the DNC. Look on the bright side, made this will allow him to run for President again in 2008 which I know you'd love.

[redsoxliberal]

90. if he does, I will be right behind him.

But I think he may do well at the DNC and then get another progressive candidate to run for president.

[madfloridian]

91. He can do both.....we just found out.

Tough luck for you, huh? Good for us. I frankly would just as soon he stayed with DFA....I just tired of the same people going after him and us all the time. It is a little much.

Everything he said is true, and sometime the truth is quite painful indeed. It is time for more of it.

[XemaSab]

55. Dean's popularity....

....is based on him giving the impression that he calls it where he sees it. I think he speaks from the heart, and that's what people respond to.

What some call being "divisive," others call honesty towards the party leadership's capitulation to what many of us see as a radical takeover of the government.

Kerry was a good man, but he ran his campaign like his differences with Bush were over minor policy points. "Well, I agree with going into Iraq on false pretences, but I think we should have had a few more allies involved."

The first thing I heard from Dean that got me in line as a supporter was his saying that our energy policy, our foreign policy, and our environmental policy all boiled down to lovin' that foreign oil. Well, duh.

And that's definitely not something you'll hear from Bush, and it's something I haven't heard too many democrats talking about either.

I don't agree that Dean tried to sell himself as the messiah of the party; I think his supporters did that.

At any rate, people in Iowa wanted a policy wonk instead of someone with a clear, simple message. Well, someone with a clear, simple message wound up being elected, and it's not Dean or Kerry, so the point is moot.

[Cheswick2.0]

176. he tries to sell himself as the chose one or the messiah?

Gee I must have missed that speech.

[newsguyatl]

51. why is it that every dean thread

draws the same miserable group of people?

and you KNOW who you are.

why can't you guys just butt out? or do you just thrive on confrontation and spreading your misery?

[Selwynn]

59. Me? Is it me? it's me isn't it? :D

Just kidding... :hi:

[wyldwolf]

101. It isn't JUST a Dean thread, is it?

It is a thread about Dean trashing the entire party and many of us take offense at that.

[madfloridian]

113. Trashing? No. Holding them accountable for their votes.

So do I. You must approve of these things, and the Omnibus bill they passed two days ago....that or you just are turning a blind eye.

It is time to speak out.

[newsguyatl]

126. yep there you are

where there's meat, the hyenas come.

[seaglass]

195. maybe if you posted it in the DFA forum it would only get the

positive responses you seem to hope for.

How about the fact that others might feel that the incessant Dean threads are divisive and spreading the misery? Ever thought about that?

[Selwynn]

54. He is right, and I think its only going to get worse....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that only a total catastrophe (politically speaking) at the national level will really shake enough people (the public yes, but I I'm thinking more of politicians) out of their totally capitulatory attitude.

[ever_green]

100. So true.

Dean kicks ass.

[killbotfactory]

102. Is it 2002 already?

Reading this is like walking through memory lane. So many familiar names, so many familiar arguements, so much sanctimonious horseshit.

Ahh, the good ol' days when Dr. Dean started fighting the good fight and I had hope for this fucking country.

[Whale Watcher]

107. That was great-- and so true.

Thanks for the excerpt!

[greenohio]

111. Easy to say from VT

where he passed tax cuts, supported nafta, and blocked all gun control legislation.

[KnowerOfLogic]

121. Shut up Dean! It's moving right and ABB, dammit! (NOT)

[madfloridian]

152. OK, here's the deal. I have learned my lesson.

I should not have posted the review of Dean's book. Dean should not have criticized the party leaders. I should not either.

Our party leaders should be respected, as they will always work in our best interest.

I hurt people's feelings when I say bad things about the party, so I am sorry. I won't do it anymore.

If Howard Dean criticizes party leaders again, I will not post it here. I don't want to offend.

We are heading the right direction, and I will no longer criticize.

[sangh0]

155. You chose the subject line, and you chose the excerpts to post

Stop pretending you only wanted to promote/review the book

If you want to make the argument that there's something wrong with Dems, then go ahead. But other people have their opinions.

[Q]

170. Have you noticed...

...that only a handful of posters don't want you to talk about the failures of the Democratic leadership? Have you noticed that it's always the same posters? They are intentionally trying to shut you down and chill your discussions. I know this because they've done the same to others over the last four years when MANY of us wondered why the Leadership was rolling over time and again and playing it 'safe' (for them).

Don't allow them to shut you up or put an end to valid criticism. You have every right to complain about a leadership that has lost everything and insists that they're still on the right track.

[greenohio]

178. Have you noticed that those criticizing often have an

ulterior motive...Howard Dean. Who really only has two differences with the DLC, Kerry and the rest of the gang. One, he said he opposed the Iraq war. The other he didn't have to prove that by voting.

Other than that Q, he is in lock step with the leadership. He is PRO NAFTA, PRO GUN, and a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE.

Deaniacs need to get over themselves.

That said, I do not hate the guy. I think he is busting his tail for the party. Its his groupies attacking anyone who is not him that is getting old.

[Q]

180. I'm not a Dean supporter and I agree that we should...

...continue to keep the heat on leaders who become little more than enablers for Bush*.

Are you saying that you don't have an 'ulterior motive' for posting on these threads? Isn't it your motive to attack those who step outside the line?

I believe you're missing the point entirely. It's not about Dean as much as it is about a party leadership that wants to take the easy path instead of being an opposition party. A party that has enabled and emboldened the Bushies instead of going on the record as opposing their horrible and dangerous policies.

I have no objection to you or anyone else posting their opinions. What pisses me off is that you and the same group of apologists seem to believe that your opinions carry more weight.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

186. I think you are getting close to where you should not go.

I find it a little scary to be called "that angry Florida lady". I find it very hard to be insulted on every thread.

I told you I was very sorry for upsetting you. Why are you keeping on with saying those things?

I realize now that our party leaders are doing the right thing. I know our country is doing well under their care.

[greenohio]

189. "I know our country is doing well under their care. "

You know, madfloridan, the sarcasm wasn't funny the first 40 times.

[madfloridian]

191. You misconstrue.

So you don't think our country is doing well under the party's care? I do.

[greenohio]

192. Lets play this out.

Really? So tell me what is going so well?

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Individualist]

188. Thank you, Q

:toast:

Madfloridian is always courteous in her discussions with others on the board, but a few people are obsessed with attacking her incessantly.

[greenohio]

190. Apparently I touched a nerve.

MadFlorian, I apologize for calling you angry Florida lady. I meant no harm, as I didn't see that as insulting. It was insensitive, I apologize. The rest is true, she does defend Dean and attack the DLC.

[Cheswick2.0]

177. Keep posting MF, your posts are great

there are a handful of divisive types here who are trying to destroy the party with their appeasement cautious politics. Who knows what their motivation is, but it certainly isn't the well being of our party or the people of the US.

[greenohio]

179. Or you could stop. That would work too.

:)

[Junkdrawer]

166. Until we RESTORE Democracy, this is what we can expect...

I'm in the Victoria Collier camp of BBV:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/102503C.shtml

Computerized vote fraud has been going on for a loooong time. And the result? Think selective breeding: Given a modest amount of time, a breeder can turn a wolf into a chihuahua.

[Triana]

183. Dean is damn correct, too...that's why I supported him

..he would NOT go along with the 'status quo'. I don't WANT someone who does that. I want someone who will stand up to the reich wingnuts and do what's right...for 'we the people' instead of 'we the rich folks, corprat conglomerates, and the fundies'.... who ARE the minority in this country.

[2Design]

193. exactly right - every time they roll over for bush they help screw the

people and they are doing it more and more - they are enablers of the brutality of this administration - and accountable

Dean is right

[wiggs]

194. Dean just earned my support for any position he wants in DNC and party

It's not democratic congresspersons against republicans, it's not progressives vs conservatives, or red vs blue. It is us against those in power who want to keep it at any cost. Democrats and republicans in congress have a nice thing going and they want to keep it that way.

Dean listed just a few of the issues that our representatives in congress should be outraged over...there are many more. Abu Ghraib, Medicare bribing, Medicare lies to congress, contempt of congress by Ashcroft regarding Geneva convention memos, environmental pillaging, Plame, Edmons, FBI mis-management, WMD lies, secret energy task force, taking war powers from congress, burying presidential records, deficits, etc. etc. etc.

Democrats in congress are entirely missing. They are enablers, not people of action.

We are alone in this and have to figure it out. Looks to me like Dean is with us, ready to upset the apple cart that it has taken those in power decades to set up.