Q for historians, sociiologist and experienced activists

[jokerman93]

I'll ask my question in a general way in hopes of starting a discussion.

At what point along the political curve of liberty/oppression does a citizenry begin to make noise publicly about an illegitimate government.

I guess I'm looking for some historical parallels or benchmarks, and to reflect on how far along we are in grappling with these complicated questions - in serious dialog as Americans. What I see in the media is that America is going to sleep and embracing the manufactured religio-political "reality" of the corporate media.

...while the clock is ticking.

[skooooo]

1. Seems like a lot would depend on culture...

...and the experience of the people. Think of the Russians, the Chinese, the North Koreans. Hopefully, Americans, not being used to such repression will not stand for it once they see how serious the situation is...I hope.

[knowbody0]

2. back in the day

photographic shock, 300 body bags per week, watergate.

the powers that be understood the power of these things and counter-acted with a fine tuned propaganda machine, and a pledge to not give coverage to dissent. fear and consumerism rules the land. we have the internet, but for how long?

PBS now is sponsored now by big business. everything is contaminated.Howard stern broke away, others need to follow. the catch 22 is always cash.
i think we need to reach out to european, asian, arab, african, south american, and canadian news agencies here in america. global realities are unknown by the majority.

[serryjw]

3. We've never been here before

when ONE party had a stranglehold on our country, where corporate personhood had so much influence, where illegal elections were acceptable,where religion was the #1 voting issue, where our countries debt can bankrupt our currency....and where PEAL OIL is inevitable. I wish I knew how to start to bring this country back from insanity....but sadly I don't

[Ardee]

4. You want the truth?

This nation has never been a true democracy...

"What we have in this country is socialism for the rich and free enterprise for the poor." Gore Vidal

"The law, in all its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread."
Anatole France

"This is the crime of which I accuse my country and my countrymen, and for which neither I nor time nor history will ever forgive them; that they have destroyed and are destroying hundreds of thousands of lives and do not know it and do not want to know it."
James Baldwin
Letter to my Nephew on the 100th anniversary of the Emancipation

I realize that these quotes are only peripherally relevant to your question but, should you ponder them, you will note that we have lived all our lives believing in a myth, so why should we think that anyone will cease believing anytime soon?

While one may find historical evidence of revolutions, they are generally fomented by dedicated wealthy men (our own) to their own ends or by conditions that became so execrable that a vast majority of starving people rose up (France among others).....so just wait until things are so bad that millions of unemployed and hopeless rise up here.......See I have hope!

[Protagoras]

8. Great stuff Ardee

I think people have a profound mis/lack of understanding of the power or pervasiveness of cultural myths.

Americans have perfected this flaw. We think we're the only/special/unique flowers of Freedom and Democracy in the world. That the IDEA of democracy started with us...and that no one has ever tried it or done it or certainly done it better.

But a funny thing happens if you actually look into other cultures...Go almost anywhere around the world and read their constitutions, talk to them about their heros and ideals.

All the stories start to sound very very familiar. Humans seem real good at talking the talk. We even codify it in books so that it seems official. But actually doing all those high minded things? Well that's a different story.

[KoKo]

5. You are asking about when will the "Tipping Point" comes "Q?" Right?

Well...we've had the demonstrations, here and all over the world. They continue but are not reported. If they are not reported, they don't exist. When people gather in protest and are treated as if they don't exist then they push harder to the next step which is demanding to be noticed. I expect when the "violence" comes there will be a wake up.

Hopefully someone who has real knowledge and has studied revolutionary movements in depth will answer your post.

My only model is the Womens Right to Vote Movement, Civil Rights Movement and the "1960's Vietnam." In the end, unlike what Gandhi and others achieved through "non-violence," I fear that Americans can only achieve success through violence. It's in our character.

When will that come...the "Tipping Point?" When "enough is enough."

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

6. Good question.

In general, the type of responses that you may be asking about do not tend to occure when a population is pushed down in a consistent manner. What causes flare-ups is when an oppressed group/society is led to believe that things are starting to get better, when they see a few potential venues for progress, and then have those options squashed. That is the formula that results in the over-turning of oppressive systems, almost without exceptions.

[Protagoras]

7. A lot depends on what you mean by Noise.

People (some people) always make noise. If you mean does that translate into EFFECTIVE action...then we have a different beast entirely.

Most historical studies of popular revolutions (the few in which things changed as opposed to the countless that were simply put down) shows a few similarities.

1) Severe Economic pain: While we talk about how much things suck in our economy...this isn't the kind of pain that motivates historical shifts. Driving SUVs and Eating Big Macs isn't where populations are who just can't take it anymore. We are pacified by our cable TV, our fast food, and our cheap Gas.

2) Obvious change: This era of fascists understand psychology (in fact it exists for them to use today as opposed to before when it did not). The frog boiling in water is an analogy that most utilize. If you send everyone to internment camps in a week THEN they'll notice and scream bloody murder. But if you slowly convert their small town economy to slave-wages through Walmartification, then they just sink slowly into depression...boiling but not really understanding what's wrong.

3) Charismatic Leader w THE Message: Most social revolutions have some figurehead that defines the message. Someone who has the vision, the power, the exposure to communicate the pain and the way out of pain. This is also the greatest threat...because the kind of power such a person can have is as likely to create more chaos and mysery (think Cambodia or China) as liberation.

Currently I think we usually fail to define the difference between Winning (in a cultural/philosophical sense) and simply getting more votes as Democrats. We can get more votes and still end up in a culture that is essentially Corporatism elevated to Godhood in which case our "WIN" is probably just a few more years of cheap gas and Mac Burgers. To WIN in the sense of a real social change away from where we are headed, however, it's going to take at least 2 of the 3 above...and currently I don't see any of that happening.

We have too much, we suffer too slowly, and we lack a charismatic visionary who can and will carry the message into the popular consciousness.

And even if we had those things, it wouldn't guarantee that any moral interest would win in the end. One despot might just replace another. The social revolution might simply be crushed because it faced a kind of might never before seen. Or even the most compelling message might be ignored because we are now living with the most sophisticated pacification tool in human history.

God is in the TV. How do we wake up enough people to ever respond to that?

This all sounds rather pessimistic, but I don't think it is hopeless...I just write it down so that the discussion can weigh the nature of what we face in the most serious and realistic manner.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. The Saving Grace is

we have no messianic figure right now. Not even Chimpus Khan. He is adored by a very slim majority. In fact, he is not even adored by all of them ..... just tolerated by some.

No, we're not at the tipping point. We're just in a bad place. I have hope we'll recover in a peaceful way. Sure tyere will be pain in the near term. There will further erosion. But in the end, I have faith that the country will wake up and an equally slim majority will tip the scales back.

Dems will in fact reofrm and be less Mommy and more Daddy. Not in a detrimental way, but in the perception of our message.

I continue to have hope.

[Protagoras]

10. We don't want a messianic figure

but for change to occur at this point I am pretty sure we require some form of leader that we have yet to see. The message is out there. But we have yet to locate a messenger who can articulate it in an appealing and forceful enough way that it reaches anything approaching the popular consciousness.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Nonono ... I don't mean **we** need a messianic figure

I'm saying **they** don't currently have a messianic figure. Sorry if my comments were unclear.