In the movie PATTON there is a scene in which Patton played by

[CoffeeAnnan]

George C.Scott is asked to host a party for a Russian General( I believe it was Chuikov, the hero of Stalingrad) after the end of all hostilities.When Chuikov offers his good wishes and extends his hands in friendship Patton arrogantly turns him down saying he wouldn't shake hands with a Commie Bastard.That incident and what has happened since the end of 1945 clearly says to me that the U.S. took an unnecssarily antagonistic attitude towards a country that saw 25 million of its people killed in the fight against Nazi tyranny.That antagonsim led to many wars and the militarization of this country that has warped all our thinking.I was hoping that we will take the path of conciliation as befits a superpower and become a force for peaceful resolution of disputes and a force for the betterment of all human beings on this planet.That, of course, is turning out to be a mirage.The twenty first century is likely to be even more bloody than the twentieth.

[St. Jarvitude]

1. Two words

Line breaks.

Spacing after sentences end might help, too.

[CoffeeAnnan]

3. Sorry.Will do.

[Octafish]

17. Thanks for adding.

Very much appreciate the analysis.

[sangh0]

20. That was constructive criticism

Not only did it refrain from personally insulting the threadstarter, it contained good suggestions as to how to improve the clarity and readability of his posts.

[Pepperbelly]

2. The attitude is only the tip of the iceberg.

What is catastrophic is our failure to factor in Soviet (and now Russian) paranoia after the whole Napolean and Hitler experience. Not wise. This is why Putan is threatening to deploy a new gen of ballistic missiles.

[gordianot]

4. Patton had some major screws loose.

I thought it may have been Zhukov whose hand Patton refused to shake (I may be wrong)? Patton wasn't much in favor of Nazi's either, he got along well with some former SS after the war. The Russians had plenty of blood on their own hands maybe more than the Nazi's good for Patton.

Today at least the Neo Fascist regimes in the Northern Hemisphere are not openly killing their own people at home (yet).

If W were to offer a handshake to me I would also reject it. To hell with conciliation or the insincere reconciliation. Lieberman in a Bush cabinet will just be salt in the wounds. The so conciliation by Reid and Leahy will not sit well with the Democratic base.

Life is ugly now and will get uglier lets face it.

[Paradise]

7. Yes, life is ugly now and will get uglier!

It had to be said, and thanks for saying it.

[asjr]

5. Has anyone here ever read Harrison Salisbury's

Siege of Stalingrad (or maybe Leningrad?) That is one powerful book. I read it about 35 years ago and think I will go to the library and read it again.

[CoffeeAnnan]

8. I have not read it but Harrison Salisbury was one of the all time great

correspondents.Like William Shirer he was a student of history and when he was on the scene he did not just recite well worn truisms handed down by the powerful.His inquisitive mind was always on display in every deptach he sent home.

I will plan to read it along with a couple of other suggestions in this thread.Good time to read too as the kids will be busy doing their thing for the Thanksgiving holidays giving the old man a break.

[Menshevik]

9. It was "900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad"

EXCELLENT book! I read it while I was studying in St. Petersburg. I was amazed at how people could live through the siege...the hunger, the freezing cold, the artillery bombardments.

[CoffeeAnnan]

11. Thanks.Will order it today.

[asjr]

12. Thanks for the full title. As I said it was at least 35 years ago if

not more. I do tend to get my "grads" mixed.

[Stargleamer]

6. Actually, I kind of remember it differently...

Whether from the movie or a biography of Patton, I read or heard something as follows:

Patton (to translator): tell that guy he's an S.O.B.
Russian officer (to translator): tell Patton he's a (Russian Equivalent to an S.O.B.)
Patton (to translator): tell him,"Well, as one S.O.B. to another, let's have a drink!".

I don't know if this is correct, it's been such a long time since I saw the movie or read Patton's biography.

[CoffeeAnnan]

10. You may be right.I will look it up.Shirer also refers to it in his book.

[Cleita]

13. Just something ancedotal.

My husband worked in the past with a man named Hans, a German who had survived Stalingrad. He said more Germans died from the cold than anything else and that the surviving Germans stacked up the frozen bodies of the dead to make shelter from the elements and artillery I would assume.

I can't verify this anywhere, but I just thought it was an interesting footnote in Nazi/Soviet history from an eyewitness.

[CoffeeAnnan]

14. Very interesting. In the work BARBAROSSA, Alan Clark talks about the

cold weather as a factor not just at Stalingrad but also in the battle of Moscow.Like Napoleon before him, Hitler overlooked this factor, with disastrous consequences.

[Yupster]

18. Of the 295,000 Germans surrounded at Stalingrad,

95,000 finally surrendered. Some specialists and wounded were airlifted out, perhaps 1,000.

Of the 95,000 who surrendered, 5,000 were eventually released by the Soviets, most around 1955.

The other 90,000 died in Soviet captivity.

One of the stupidest decisions ever by a leader not allowing the Sixth Army to retreat while it was being surrounded.

Also, much blame goes onto Paulus. When Manstein's relief effort was stopped about 20 miles from the pocket, Paulus had to breakout to meet it.

He claimed he had no orders, was short of fuel, would not be able to keep the army together. Still, Manstein told him the relief force would soon have to retreat and could certainly advance no further. It was Paulus' last chance to save 295,000 men and he wouldn't act.

Probably most of the equipment would have been lost and maybe only a third or half of the army would have gotten through, but how could you not attempt your last chance?

[bleedingheart]

15. It didn't matter, Stalin was certifiably nuts

I don't think we could have really come to peaceful terms with him.

[TomClash]

16. That was a scene from a film

It never happened. Zhukov never met Patton at Torgau or anywhere else on the Elbe.

[Octafish]

19. You're right about the outlook for Century 21.

If you're interested in the "Why" things ended up like they have, you might enjoy a decent book on the subject:

"The Secret History of the CIA" by Joseph Trento. The book's not perfect, but it does give you interviews with enough of the players involved to get a true picture of how the Superpowers' ruling elites use war to maintain power.