Do you think we Europeans hate USA?

[mogster]

I'm not quite through with this, and am using my new found muscle as threadstarter to make my post mor sticky ;)

Europe is not hostile towards Americans in general.

The election campaign made it very clear that there's two sides to America today, and the internal struggle in the US is visible all the way over the Atlantic.

Let me repeat that.
Europe is not hostile towards Americans in general.

On the contrary, there is much sympathy and debate over the extraordinary WEIRD thing that's happening to the US, and how it reflects back on you people with an international mindset.

Unreflected, America-bashing, tripe exists, but is not the prevailing mood among Europeans. FOX, NRO and other rightwing pundits have a field day when they happen upon some, though, trying to brand Europe as 'enemy territory'.

I wonder why.

Even Repubs are welcome in Europe, contrary to what the neoCon/evangelical regime is trying to tell them, day after day.
(Although they won't get any acceptance for neoCon ideology here in Europe)

You Americans must see yourself as the Europeans (and the world at large) see you:
As out of our stock, as our descendants. We all built America, because of large parts of our population has immigrated to the US in the previous century, and the century before that.

Four years ago, the world considered the US 'our finest product', the peak of what mankind could achieve. The Beacon of Democracy.

Now you're having a fascist outbreak, because all the glory naturally go to the head of the right wing oriented.
So what?

Remember who you're talking to. We're the Europeans. We've mowed over each other, invaded each other's countries and tried to exterminate each other for decades.

Don't be ashamed of your country. These things happens to every society.

Just fight it.

--------------

If you wonder about this fact, I'll find some material/opinion and post here.
Here's some stats from 1999 and 2003, comparing US under Bush with US under Clinton:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/05/goodwill_deficit.html

Depressing read at first, but note some details:
- look at the numbers from 1999 - a majority of world population favors US after 8 years of Democrat presidency.
- note the huge percentage of negatives defining their opinion as 'Mostly Bush-related'
- look at Morocco and Indonesia where more than 70% favored the US values in 1999 - so much for the Moslem scare ;-)

The European enmity toward ordinary Americans is just as illusory as the European support for the so-called 'Coalition of the willing': supported by some odd politicians only, the people of Europe SHUNNING the neoCon's for what they represent - because we've seen this type of movement before and know what it means.
It should instantly be dubbed 'Coalition of the few, probably intimidated, politicians', because the response to Bush pressure never found it's way down to the common man.
Such as in Norway, where 93% of the population now strongly opposes Bush.

My own reaction to this is often a bit surreal, as you can read from this note in my diary earlier this year:

"I wonder if I'm breaking any obscure terror-law by debating with the liberals on American boards?

I did a search for 'The Protection Act Against Political Interference From Old Allies That We Protected from The Evil Evil Communism And Who Didn't Even Say Thanks When We Saved Europe from The Nazi's And Now Think They're So Smart And Fucking Political Correct' on the Congress Legal pages, but got no hits.

Ah, well. I'll try again tomorrow."

[Metatron]

1. Thanks, mogster

Welcome to DU!

[mogster]

9. Hi, thanks for welcome and replies :-)

I think I'll stick around :headbang:

[Dark]

2. That still won't stop me from telling people I am Canadian when overseas.

But it's still heartwarming to see we are not despised.

[Downtown Hound]

3. Thanks for the kind words

We're trying to fight it.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

4. It is good to see that the world won't take their anger out on me.

I have no hostilities towards the world like Bush does.

[President Kerry]

5. thank you. it's refreshing to see that

people don't associate the government with the people.

[Protagoras]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts from abroad.

But I do wonder if you aren't trying to be a bit too nice. When I was in europe I saw a lot of opinions that make me believe you are a bit more charitable than most.

That's not a bad thing. I like charitable friendly people. But my impression was strongly this election was a referrendum on this country's future.

I saw a lot of references to European experience that made me think that what we were experiencing here was something many of you have seen before...and that the results are rather nasty and unpleasant. In fact, some of the editorials I read seemed to indicate that the EU's future dominance was partly based on the assumption that this country is (pretty much inevitably) heading for economic collapse that will eventually finish us off as THE worlds superpower, replacing us with the EQ and Asia.

At least that was what I picked up from the press, TV and personal conversations there...but admittedly that's pretty spotty and circumstantial.

[mogster]

10. Perhaps so

And I guess you'll find the opinion to differ between the countries in Europe, as the continent is culturally divided.

And Europe has simple people too, now seeing the US as a hovering threat and not knowing what to do with that feeling. Just as the Republicans in rural USA feels towards terrorism.
In a sense, the confirmation the elections gave Bush was a shock, and the unreflected blame game may further deepen the gap.

But actions such as the sorryeverybody-website has filled out the picture a bit. What good, good stuff that website is!

Here's my favourite:


He looks pissed off and ready to keep going :toast:

[NikolaTeslaRocks]

17. re perhaps so

He looks like my hubby when he was in his early twenties.
Makes me think of the fun we used to have before the stress of making a living and dealing with kids.

Who is this a pic of anyway? Is it the one that started the Imsorry website? OR is this mogster?

[mogster]

29. Probably one that knew them anyway

It's not me, though.

Here's me B-)



Coupla years ago, tho *oink*

[Protagoras]

6. Dupe, please delete.

double post

[DawnneOBTS]

7. Thanks for your support, really appreciated

Dear Mogster,
I want to tell you that there are many of us, like me, who are ashamed to be Americans. This wasn't the way it used to be. This is the way it is now-our country stood for freedom, now it stands for "watch what you say" (an actual John Ashcroft quote). I would understand fully (and I do) why Europeans hate America-let me just start you out with a really good one from my own family:
My first cousin married someone from Albania, she is American-born. They just had a child less than two weeks ago. She has been fighting for years (the post-W appointed president by the supreme court years, of course) for a green card for him. Still no green card. He is still in jeopardy of getting deported. He has a job (teaches violin within the NYC school system, is educated, etc.) but can't get driver's license, hold property, nothing, and they still keep getting notices that he is here illegally, and he will be prosecuted. They are out of money from all of the lawyers fees that they have been spending, much to no avail. Whoever gets all of his paperwork doesn't like Albanians I guess, because they keep getting told by some government bureaucrat that his paperwork was lost (how does this happen three times-this is a joke). Does this make sense? I guess to W it does. If I could find a country that was willing to take Americans as immigrants, I would go. But nobody wants us, and I don't blame them. I've tried already for Canada, Australia, France.

[RelativelyJones]

8. What a gracious statement

Thanks, Mogster, for being so concilatory. There are millions of natural allies of enlightened Europe in America, as you well know. And while Bush certainly has very little support from anyone in Europe, there are those who espouse idealogies just as oppressive and ugly.

The most extraordinary development stemming from this election, other than the catastrophic result, has been the acknowledgement that the like-minded can be from anywhere.

[mogster]

11. The US has friends in strange places

I really liked your last statement.

Did you know that I was born and bred on American values?
Ronald Reagan was the president when I grew up, but his values were underplayed here. We lived on Kennedy and Ike, even Roosevelt, who was kind enough to let part of our royal family stay in the White House during WWII. New Deal, friendship and peace, that's our picture of the USA.
Ever since there have been a close relationship and alliance towards the US from the Norwegian side; as a small nation it's our bread and butter to work for democracy and peace, and the US was a most trusted partner in that respect. Even Reagan couldn't take that away.

God, I'm getting windy here?? ;)

Yeah, anyhow, there's time to reach out and strengthen old ties again, because the only ones to benefit from old ties not being strengthened are the neoCons/evangelicals, able to hype a new enemy if terrorism isn't working anymore.

[goddess40]

12. "Now you're having a fascist outbreak"

Is there a cure for that?

Maybe that's why * blocked the flu shots this year, he thought it was a cure for fascism.

Thanks for your kind words - I must say that I'm not to thrill with, slightly less, then half the voters here in America. To say they disgust me is an understatement - and some of them are relatives.

edit: my hubby's half Norwegian and his dad occasionally makes the trip to Norway to visit relatives.

[alcuno]

13. If I were a European, I'd definitely want the US to be shunned.

Heck! I'm an American and I think it's a good idea. Our leaders are making Americans into victims of all you evil "Bush Haters." Republicans need an enemy and you are it.

[mr blur]

14. We Europeans don't all hate America

You're right. And it's good that Americans should hear this. But do you really think that anyone but an American ever thought that the US was "the peak of what mankind could achieve. The Beacon of Democracy."? Isn't this just what the people who support Bush believe?

[bri_in_austin]

15. Mogster,

What country do you live in? Do you think the popular sentiment is the same all over Europe or only in certain countries?

[mcscajun]

16. Thanks for the hope...

"Don't be ashamed of your country. These things happens to every society."


Sounds pretty much like: These things happen in the best of families. :)

[Porcupine]

18. Nah, just our leaders, food, cars, corporations, banking

military arrogance, nuclear saber rattling, pushy moralizing "christians" and suburban sprawl.

They LOVE San Francisco, New Orleans and our National Parks.

[Newshues]

19. read and discuss.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16031

[m berst]

20. read and discuss?

I think I'll pass, thanks.

[mogster]

33. ;-) Oh, that one

I've read this story before. As the article mentioned; there's little escaping us Norwegians when it comes to media coverage about our country. :hippie:
It comes with being small, I guess.

Truth is, this guy behaved like a real prick during his stay here, if we are to glean some knowledge from the Norw. papers. Maybe his dirty neoCon soul overflowed and became visible or something.

Aw, but this is just what I mentioned in my post: if you look for negatives, you'll find them.

But this magazine is poor source material.

[Porcupine]

21. Nah, just our leaders, food, cars, corporations, banking

military arrogance, nuclear saber rattling, pushy moralizing "christians" and suburban sprawl.

They LOVE San Francisco, New Orleans and our National Parks.

[NightTrain]

22. That's good to know. However, it wasn't Europeans who...

...slammed jumbo jets into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center!

[mogster]

30. No, it was a small group of Saudis

Led by a fractioned, isolated extremist.

When the US declared war on one man (!) this naturally changed, and it gained to his strength considerably.
Really!

The inept handling of the so-called 'War on terror' enabled him to throw shit in your faces again just before the election. And get Bush re-'elected'.

That in itself is a astounding fact, and the way Bush has been using 911 to scare and/or intimidate ordinary Americans into cooperation by maintaining a constant state of crisis, is apalling.

The 'war' is undefined.
It has no endpoint, and the startpoint is more vague than it appears. After all, both bin Laden and Saddan Hussein are products of Ronald Reagan's tendency to run large, undemocratic noname-projects to further HIS big thing: the fight against communism - the Evil Empire.
In 1987 the export to bin Laden's Al-Queda nucleus was 67.000 metric tonnes of advanced tech, including Stingers and even a simulator to train shooting them. Psy-ops, media strategy, interrogation technique, bomb-making out of simple materials, you name it.
All provided by CIA, funded by the Saudis and US taxpayers.

The 'war' is undefined, which caused Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib, the strange Iraqi war, the Patriot Act and the Freepers.
Where's the front?
Basically, Bush may just point at some guy and say: - That's my enemy.

The lack of definition and the unspecified end-point of the 'War on terror' must be a focus for the democratic minded people.

[m berst]

23. thanks mogster

Excellent post. The truth is that the Bush administration hates the world, not that the world hates Americans. It is pure projection.

Thinking people around the world are concerned - so are we here. Thinking people around the world have problems with this administration - so do we here.

As you point out, America is comprised of people from around the world of all different nationalities, organized politically around ideas, not an ethnicity or geographic boundary. The ideas of America - the ideas that are America - are universal and admired by people everywhere. The people who founded America as a political entity set forth that "all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" as the basis for government, and did not describe Americanism as "those born in a certain place" or "voting a certain way" or "waving the flag and supporting their president right or wrong."

[paulk]

24. I've been to Asia twice since the Bush coup

and haven't noticed much of a difference from the times I went before. The taxi drivers don't give the thumbs up and "Yeah, Bill Clinton!" like they did before, and the one who tried the "Yeah, George Bush!" was quickly set to rights.

I've met many Europeans while over there, and they've all been very understanding and generous toward our misfortune, especially the Germans and Italians we've met, perhaps because they understand better than most that countries go astray.

I wouldn't hesitate to travel in Europe, in fact we're hoping to go to Italy in the spring, if the dollar doesn't fall completely off the map.

Thanks for the nice post!
:toast:

I'm not ashamed to be an American - it's a great experiment that has both good and bad sides. Right now we're going through a real bad spell, but I have to believe things will get better.

[blueblitzkrieg]

25. Thanks for the kind message, mogster!

:hi: If it gets too bad here, can I come crash at your place? I bet there is some wicked skiing to be done in Norway. :D

[rockymountaindem]

26. Cool dude. Thanks.

I like you too.

[0007]

27. I find the Motherjones stats quite interesting.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/05/goodwill_deficit.html

[BonjourUSA]

28. Of course European don't hate the USA BUT

Which USA ?

I am not very optimistic because I believe the gap between one of this America, the America of Bush, and Europe will be more and more large. And more and more this America will be the majority of the American people.

The USA will be an isolated empire

[Nimrod]

31. That is SO welcome. :)

Bear in mind that Americans are so fucking stupid that we DO project the tiniest disagreement over an entire race of people (Freedom Fries anyone)? It still takes us by surprise that people in other nations aren't quite as simple-minded as we are.

[DuaneBidoux]

32. I don't know if you're European but I do consider it your duty

to speak with the economic muscle you have. Boycott American products (even including Hollywood). When the world begins to turn its back on America the way Bush (and now unfortunately America) has turned its back on the world then corporations will suffer, and when the puppet masters suffer, the direction of the puppet will be changed.

If you are from Europe I am searching for links to progressive European forums. The meme must be heard globally: boycott American products.

[seafey]

34. "Our finest product??"

Is this for real? Doesn't that seem a little fascist? I hear the gist of what you're saying, but it's not really making sense really. Thanks, I guess, but I don't think America represents Europe's descendants. Well, maybe, if you look at the demographic of our government, but they're *supposed* to represent us, which includes LOTS AND LOTS of people who are most decidedly *not* of European descent.