WATCH 20/20 next friday

[serryjw]

ABC's bushit is continuing......

quote......
20/20
ABC 7 Nov 26 09:00pm Add to My Calendar
Series/Talk, 60 Mins.
"A Murder in Laramie: The Mystery and the Myth"
Surprising revelations about the 1998 beating and murder of college student Matthew Shepard cast doubt on the long-held assumption that it was an anti-gay hate crime.
end quote......
Does anyone believe the possibity that Matt died for any other reason?

[Sannum]

1. This is dispicable.

They are trying to justify hate crimes.

[Leilani]

2. ABC has gone over to the dark side...

[Mackenzie]

3. Shepherd was a human being. His sexual orientation doesn't matter.

Matthew Shepherd was a human being, with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It doesn't matter if he was gay or not.

It doesn't matter if his murderers were homophobic or not.

His killers deserve life in jail, with no possibility of parole.

They should not be allowed to use TVs, radios, computers, video games, etc.

They should not have air conditioning.

They should eat nothing but rice, beans, and a vitamin pill. And water should be their only drink.

They should have to do hard labor 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

The only people who are spazzing out over the murder of Matthew Shepherd (besides his friends and family) are the people who normally are soft on crime.

People who normally favor being soft on criminals, and giving them parole, probation, early release, etc., are deciding that Shepherd's case is different, and for the first time, they are actually getting angry that someone was murdered.

Not me. I am outraged at all murders. So the fact that Shepherd was gay doesn't make any difference to me.

The only people who support hate crime legislation are the people who otherwise go soft on murderers.

Since I favor life in jail with no possibility of parole for all murderers, and I am against the death penalty, there is no extra penalty that could be given for a hate crime.

Personally, I am shocked and outraged that so many people are treating Shepherd's murder different than any other murder.

Here's a good website:

http://www.pinkpistols.org/

[DrWeird]

5. Uh -huh. And Martin Luther King Jr.'s death...

was just another random shooting.

[Mackenzie]

10. King was a human being, just like Shepherd.

All murderers should get life in jail, with no possibility for parole.

[DrWeird]

12. Great non-answer.

Have we met before?

[Mackenzie]

14. OK. Each murder is unique.

King was a great guy who inspired a lot of people.

Shepherd was a great guy to those who knew him. He wasn't famous, but that doesn't make him any different as a human being.

None of that changes my belief that all murderers should get life in jail with no possibility for parole.

[Doohickie]

20. Question....

I don't mean to stir up a hornet's nest, although this could do it.

But honestly: What purpose does it serve to have separate "hate crime" laws? If it's illegal to kill Matt Shepard or Martin Luther King, Jr., what difference does it make to prosecute it under Murder or Hate Crime statutes? Either way, the victim is still dead.

In the case of assaults, it's a crime either way, regardless of whether the gay/race/whatever gets dragged into it. So what purpose is surved by adding hate crime statutes? Or are they really just political window dressing to make politicians look sensitive to a popular issue?

[dsc]

22. Hate crimes are both worse crimes from the standpoint of society

and more difficult to deter. Hate crimes are crimes of emotion and thus very difficult to deter. Also hate crimes are targetted at entire classes and thus cause harm to both the victim and society. Therefore a greater sentence is needed.

[Doohickie]

46. Further questions:

"Hate crimes are both worse crimes from the standpoint of society and more difficult to deter."

Can you discuss why you make these assertions? Neither is very obvious to me. Why is a hate crime against a gay person worse than, say, domestic abuse? And why do you think a hate crime is harder to deter than, again, domestic abuse?

"Hate crimes are crimes of emotion and thus very difficult to deter."

Again, compare with domestic abuse which is also a crime of emotion.

"Also hate crimes are targetted at entire classes and thus cause harm to both the victim and society."

Why do you think that society is affected more by a crime against a gay person than against a battered spouse? I could make the opposite claim, that a man killing his wife is the more severe crime, if there are kids involved. Society is hurt more by the loss of one parent to death and the other to jail, leaving the kids as wards of the state, than by the killing of a person with no natural offspring. (Yes, I realize some gays have kids, but it is not nearly as common or likely, at least at present.) Can you explain the counter-point, that society is hurt more by the murder of a gay man than by the murder of a mother by her husband? I still don't get why a crime against a class of people necessarily causes more harm.

"Therefore a greater sentence is needed."

You haven't gotten to "therefore" yet; you make several assertions without supporting information.

[serryjw]

7. You may want to re-think this.......

The only people who support hate crime legislation are the people who otherwise go soft on murderers.


I do think there are extenuating circumstances when so one murders...IE, child abuse, spousal abuse for examples. Life WITHOUT parole is not typical in all murders. 25 to life is with the possibility of parole.BY this being a brutal hate crime it would automatically carry an extra 10 years for the crime.
I DO THINK Hate crimes are different.Random killing will never stop BUT to be deliberately killed for whom you are or what you believe is against everything this country should stand for.( of course this is not true under Bushit & CO!)

[Mackenzie]

9. Why?

If he had been murdered during an armed robbery, why should his killers be treated more leniently? Is he any less dead?

Murder is murder.

All murder is wrong.

All murderers should get life in jail with no possibility for parole.

[sonicx]

26. even in manslaughter?

[Mackenzie]

30. Yes, if the killing was deliberate.

And yes, if the killing took place during a mugging or burglary.

But if the killing was an accident, then no.

[sonicx]

32. manslaughter lacks malice and premeditation...

so it wouldn't be deliberate, anyway...

[Mackenzie]

35. So then......

If a person is committing a mugging or a burglary, and it was not his intention to kill his victim, but he does end up killing the victim, then I would give him life in jail.

For example, if a mugger pushes his victim, and the victim falls down and hits his head and dies, then I would give the mugger life in jail with no possibility of parole.

I value the victim more than the mugger.

Of course, I would also legalize marijuana, gay marriage, and prostitution for consenting adults. That way, there'd be plenty of room in jail for the real criminals.

[Nicky Scarfo]

37. See my post #34, it's not man, its felony murder. nt

[msgadget]

16. It mattered to those who murdered him

and the other side would rather not acknowledge this category of hate crime because they do not acknowledge gays. I get your point completely - I really do - but, in this case his sexual orientation matters.

[Zhade]

21. Two things...

1. Pink Pistols is run by FREEPERS. It's a well-disguised front.

2. His sexual orientation matters because it's WHY he was killed. They hated him because he was gay, and THAT'S why they killed him.

[Mackenzie]

28. Two responses.

"Pink Pistols is run by FREEPERS."

Really? Then why did they endorse Michael Badnarik the Libertarian for President?

"They hated him because he was gay, and THAT'S why they killed him."

No. They hated him because they were evil, and they killed him because they were evil. If there were no gay people in the world, then they would find some other excuse to hate and kill people, because that's what evil people do.

[sonicx]

31. "They hated him because they were evil"

a little too Bush. the world is not black and white.

do you think people who commit manslaughter should go to jail for life?

edit: nevermind. you answered in another post. :)

[Mackenzie]

33. My answer

"do you think people who commit manslaughter should go to jail for life?"

Yes, if the killing was deliberate.

And yes, if the killing took place during a mugging or burglary.

No, if the killing was an accident.

[Nicky Scarfo]

34. The case which you describe is not man, it's felony murder

Killing someone in the furtherance of a felony is felony murder, not manslaughter.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. Because some Freepers are Libertarians

That's why.

[Walt Starr]

4. This is an attempt by the murderers to drum up some sympathy

so that they can get parole at some future date.

[Mackenzie]

8. Why does parole for murderers even exist in the first place?

I have always been opposed to parole for murderers.

Why should any murderer get parole?

[DrWeird]

6. Yes. Watch it. Write down the advertisers.

Then call them up afterwards to tell them you're boycotting.

[nostamj]

11. "Surprising revelations" from MURDERERS

this is JUST the beginning folks!

watch for a steady change in media/entertainment visibility and presentation for gay folk under bush2* - and NOT for the better.

when they cancel Will & Grace, you'll know it's in full swing

[Dark]

13. Welcome back nostamj!

[Mackenzie]

15. Will and Grace

Will and Grace is a stupid sitcom with stupid stereotypes.

Now Ricky from My So Called Life - he was a great, fully formed, three dimensional character who was very interesting. That was a great show.

[dsc]

17. I haven't agreed with many of your posts

but you are spot on about My So Called Life. I loved Ricky. I wish that show had lasted longer.

[Nicky Scarfo]

36. Don't know about "My So Called Life", but WIll and Grace is

incredibly stupid. A slick and glossy sitcom with absolutely no substance or humor. Decadent bourgeois shit. Norman Lear social commentary it ain't. And anyone who thinks this self-serving piece-of-shit is either funny or socially liberating is a moron.

[nostamj]

38. yeah. W&G sucks now.

that wasn't the point though, was it?

a 'popular' sit-com that is, in its cheez-whiz way, gay-positive, will vanish. (along with character like Ricky--although I've never seen that show....)

[Nicky Scarfo]

41. Always did suck. nt

[dsc]

18. This is totally despicable

Giving a national platform for those despicable people to try to garner sympathy is close to evil. Shame, shame, shame.

[Bleacher Creature]

Two words: John Stossel

He's a rabid Freeper and is now almost completely in charge of 20/20. So why would this story surprise anyone??

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. John Stossel--that was my first thought, too

Why am I not surprised?

When I used to watch 20/20, I agreed with him exactly ONCE, when he had a segment about biological parents who abandon their kids for years and then try to take them away from the adoptive parents with whom they have bonded.

Other than that, he's used illogical arguments for his hateful positions, such as the people who line up for government surplus food aren't really poor because they're better off than people in Bangladesh, and besides, they have VCRs.

That's his level of argument.

[Bleacher Creature]

19. Two words: John Stossel

He's a rabid Freeper and is now almost completely in charge of 20/20. So why would this story surprise anyone??

[GRLMGC]

23. The "Give Me A Break" segment?

I can see that. This is horrendous.

[Mackenzie]

24. How do you explain this?

How do you explain this?

http://www.sodomylaws.org/usa/georgia/ganews10.htm

[Bleacher Creature]

27. He's a libertarian Freeper.

I guess that makes him a little better than the rest, but I'm not so sure. His biggest targets are environmental laws.

[Nicky Scarfo]

40. He's a capitalist libertarian for sure, but I don't think he's a Freeper

Stossel pretty much toes the LP line, which would make calling him a "Freeper" a contradiction in terms. Just because right-wing Repugs and Libertarians both believe in unfettered free-makets does not make them one in the same-- it just means they're both wrong on that particular issue.

[thedailyshow]

25. um, beating the shit out of him and leaving him for dead on a fence

is definitely a hate crime, and those bastards knew he was gay.

[progressoid]

29. 20/20 PUUUUUKE

Another part of the "Liberal" media

[bunny planet]

39. refuse to watch it is more like it, and SINCLAIR their asses hard.

This is beyond the beyond despicable.

[Wolf1728]

42. These are the reasons I favor the death penalty.

Oh don't get me wrong - I'm a Massachusetts Liberal.
In capital crimes where there is NO question as to guilt and NO hope for an insanity plea, (Ted Bundy, Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Gacey), I am glad to see these miscreants forfeit their membership in the human race. If we keep folks like this alive in prison for life then sooner or later some bozo is going to interview them if for no other reason than to garner ratings (and this is November - isn't that $weep$ month?). Also, every now and then doesn't Charles Manson make the news? (parole hearings, prison fights, etc). Remember Richard Speck made the news when he and a fellow inmate made that video from prison?
Also, life in prison without parole doesn't carry that much weight as you'd think. In one of the most infamous crimes (Leopold and Loeb murdering Bobby Franks), the two were sentenced to life in prison for the murder AND 99 years for the kidnapping. Loeb was murdered in prison in 1936.
However, in 1958, after 33 years in prison, Leopold was released on parole. He moved to Puerto Rico to avoid attention from the press. In 1971, at age 66, he died of a heart attack.
I don't get the math involved there - life PLUS 99 years = 33 years ???
(Source: www.wikipedia.com)
As if I haven't ranted enough, in a capital crime, the murderers have the advantage of telling their story from their point of view. And in this case, on Friday, they'll be free to throw all the bull**** they want. Matthew Shepherd unfortunately, will NOT have the opportunity to tell his side of the story.
I wonder if these murderers will really spend their entire lives behind bars.

[gauguin57]

43. Peter Jennings found a pod by his bed last year. He went to sleep.

The pod person woke up. Soon, there were pods by all the reporters and anchor's beds at ABC. And they all went to sleep, and hundreds of pod people woke up.

And the pods were being placed at ALL the networks ... only Kevin McCarthy, portrayed by Keith Olbermann, stayed awake long enough to see his pod destroyed. Only he could speak the truth.