Hunter is hunting hunters - 5 dead, 3 injured

[Deja Q]

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S4381.html?cat=1

Whew boy... just when yo8u thought things would never get more interesting. :eyes:

[jukes]

1. chez

bizarre!

[kuozzman]

2. FOX is telling a different story.....

They said a hunter asked to hunt on private property and was told no. Then he returned w/an automatic and unloaded on them.....killing 5/wounding 3.....
(Saw on TV)

[Zynx]

4. Ok, those stories are just waaaaay different.

Someone is totally wrong.

[Deja Q]

7. Wow. For once, the different news channels aren't parroting the same blab

:crazy:

The FOX9 newscaster had a blurb saying that a hunter hunting deer hunters but they had zilch on their website. So I went elsewhere.

Still, if your version is the correct one, it's just a reminder of the * mindset and how his supporters 'think'. (that killer can't possibly be from any other political affiliation.)

[Zynx]

3. Holy shit

Do not use big game rifles on people.

[Flammable Materials]

5. HUNT THE HUNTING HUNTERS! n/t

[riverwalker]

6. the suspect is from Minnesota

"The suspect's name has not been released. However, authorities said he was from the Twin Cities area."

[Dr.Phool]

9. Had a guy in Southern Ohio

A few years ago.A serial killer. In a reclaimed strip mine area that was used publicly for hunting, fishing, and camping. He killed about 8 people over a couple of years. Hunters, joggers and fishermen.

[ohio_liberal]

14. Thomas Lee Dillon?

I worked for the same company as one of his victims.

[LeftyMom]

8. Is the suspect a buck by any chance?

Does it make me a bad person that reading that story reminds me of Deer Avenger?

[AllyCat]

10. Milw JS and WCCO are reporting a very different version

AP and local news were saying the guy asked permission to hunt on their land, was denied, and returned with the Assault Rifle and killed them.

How much you want to bet that Fox is going to spin this that the guy was some kind of anti-hunting nut and went out with an assault weapon to kill the hunters? That way, they can spew forth more crap about PETA-types?

*Edited as WCCO is NOT Twin Cities news. Sorry!*

[welshTerrier2]

11. The Most Dangerous Game

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game

The Most Dangerous Game is an adventure novel by Richard Connell (1893 - 1949). The plot concerns an insane hunter who traps a group of people in an isolated area to hunt them. He considers humans to be the only quarry worthy of his skill. The group must struggle to outwit the hunter and escape.

you can actually read the entire book online (it's very short) right here ...

[gordianot]

13. I saw a thread here at DU.

That accused Dick Cheney of a version of that game in Wyoming.

[RebelOne]

12. Sorry, I have no pity on those who kill for trophys.

[ObaMania]

16. Me either!

I libe in Northern VA, a suburb of Washington (not hicksville) and you would not believe the number of decapitated deer found on the side of the road at any given time during deer season. I counted three today alone!

Idiot rednecks. :mad:

[yellowcanine]

20. Um - those are probably road kills that someone has collected the

head from. I wouldn't do that either but not quite the same as shooting a deer just for the head.

[Solitaire]

22. I live in NYC, but my parents had moved to Vernon NJ

for a bit and I used to HONK my horn whenever I saw hunter trucks along the road. I'm sure they loved me.

[Solitaire]

21. I second that...

We don't need anyone willing to take a life, for fun. Any life.

[pinniped]

15. He looks crazy.

Chai-Vang

[seemslikeadream]

17. Laos - 2004 Anuual Report and more

Laos - 2004 Anuual Report


The arrest of two European journalists for investigating the situation of the Hmong ethnic minority drew international attention to the lack of freedom in Laos, where the news media take their orders from the authorities. A press law announced in 2001 has still not been adopted.

The 15-year prison sentences received by reporters Thierry Falise and Vincent Reynaud drew the world's attention to the obstacles to foreign press coverage of the plight of Laos' Hmong ethnic minority. An international outcry forced the authorities in Vientiane to release the two journalists but their Laotian guides remained in prison and were allegedly mistreated.
Directly controlled by the information and culture ministry, the Laotian press gave a very one-sided account of the case of the two European journalists. The French-language weekly Le Rénovateur was the only publication to give both sides of the story, and it was immediately censored. The government news agency Khaosan Pathet Lao (KPL) is the only news organisation that is allowed to express a view on sensitive issues.
The party newspaper Paxaxon (People) bills itself as a "revolutionary publication written by the people and for the people which serves the revolution's political action." Journalists are civil servants in the employ of the information and culture ministry. The foreign ministry also has a say in media content. Criticism of the "friendly countries," especially the Vietnamese big brother and Burma, is banned.
To escape the propaganda, many Laotians are in the habit of watching Thai TV stations that can be received in border areas, including the capital. The authorities have never tried to put a stop to this. Similarly, the international radio services that broadcast in Lao, especially Radio Free Asia and Radio France Internationale, have never been jammed. On the other hand, foreign journalists who enter on a press visa are watched closely and are banned from visiting some parts of the country. The authorities control the only Internet operator and block some news websites and sites operated by dissidents based abroad.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10197

Hmong leader in Calif. may be target of violence in Minnesota

Associated Press

ST. PAUL - Authorities are looking for connections among a spate of violent incidents directed against local Hmong leaders affiliated with Gen. Vang Pao, a California resident regarded as the most influential Hmong leader in the United States.

The incidents include a firebombing at the suburban St. Paul home of the general's son, a drive-by shooting at the home of his translator, a suspicious fire at a St. Paul social service agency the general founded, and a reported hit list that includes a veteran St. Paul police officer.

Star Tribune of Minneapolis in its Sunday editions. Rumors are swirling about what's behind the violence, which the Star Tribune of Minneapolis reported in its Sunday editions. Popular theories include communist agents, political divisions or the opening shots in a war of succession in the Hmong community.

"I believe there is something going on in a more general way," said Steve Young, former dean of the Hamline University law school and a close adviser to Vang, who lives outside Los Angeles. "These are not isolated incidents. Somebody is doing something."

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/politics/8574361/

gen. vang pao is a liar
Base: military
Re: My war too (Rose)
Re: WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW (your own people)
Re: i think... (kasey)
Re: General VANG PAO>>>??? (Alexis)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:01:18 GMT
From: [e-mail] (unknown yang)

vang pao is a liar who don't care about no one but himself. lets just face it, he is hmong and hmong men are are full of it. it was because of him lying to our parents in Laos that led to the death of over 108,000 hmong peoples. Two of thos people were my brothers. My dad lost his whole family and everyone else he cares for. General "coward" is not helping the hmongs in the usa neither the ones back home. he uses all the money he gets on gambling and the us lets him have 8 wives just because he was a dog to the americans who brainwashed the HMONGS to actually take part in th war just to die for the americans. A "TRUE LEADER" survives with all his people or die trying.

http://knossos.shu.edu/HyperNewsV/get/vp/military/66/4/16/1/2.html

US WI: Sen. George Asks UW For Probe On Vang Pao

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n809/a09.html
Newshawk: Drug Policy Forum of Wisconsin www.drugsense.org/dpfwi/
Votes: 0
Pubdate: Sat, 27 Apr 2002
Source: Capital Times, The (WI)
Copyright: 2002 The Capital Times
Contact: [e-mail]
Website: http://www.captimes.com /
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/73
Author: Pat Schneider


SEN. GEORGE ASKS UW FOR PROBE ON VANG PAO

State Sen. Gary George is calling on UW-Madison Chancellor John Wiley to order an investigation into allegations by a UW-Madison professor that the commander of the CIA's secret army in the Vietnam War - now a leader of refugee Hmong in the United States - engaged in drug trafficking in Laos.

The allegations, 30 years old, resurfaced this month, enraging the refugee community.

"We will seek the truth and follow that path wherever it leads," George said Friday at a news conference at the State Capitol packed with Hmong veterans and supporters of Gen. Vang Pao.

Professor Alfred McCoy wrote about his findings on the role of Vang Pao and the CIA in drug trafficking in southeast Asia in a 1972 book, "The Politics of Heroin."

McCoy said the U.S. government assisted Vang Pao in bringing opium, an important cash crop for the Hmong, to heroin factories to help Vang Pao seal his leadership role and ensure a supply of fighters who waged a secret war against the North Vietnamese in Laos.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n809/a09.html


McCoy said the U.S. government assisted Vang Pao in bringing opium


Posted on Wed, Apr. 28, 2004


ST. PAUL: Crime spree on Hmong investigated

BY LENORA CHU and TODD NELSON

Pioneer Press


Authorities are trying to determine whether a connection exists between anonymous death threats leveled Monday against seven Hmong community leaders and recent crimes committed against prominent Hmong.

St. Paul Police spokesman Paul Schnell revealed Wednesday that the death threats came in an anonymous call received by a St. Paul Hmong veterans group. Local and federal law enforcement agencies are investigating the alleged hit list.

Authorities also confirmed Wednesday that an object hurled through a window sparked the arson fire that destroyed the home of Cha Vang, son of influential leader Gen. Vang Pao. Cha Vang narrowly escaped the early Sunday fire with his wife and three daughters.

A flammable substance was also found in the home, according to Maplewood Police Chief Dave Thomalla, who declined to identify the object and substance.

Two other crimes are being investigated for possible connections. On April 20, someone fired five shots into the Maplewood home of Xang Vang, Gen. Vang Pao's translator. The following day, officials discovered someone had thrown a brick into a window and started a fire at the St. Paul offices of the Lao Family Community of Minnesota.

more
http://www.realcities.com/mld/twincities/8543732.htm



Muaj ib nqe ntawm Sen. Norm Coleman cov lus hais tias "nws yog ib qho tseem ceeb heev uas U.S. State Department yuav tsum ua txhua yam coj kom tau kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb mus rau tebchaws Lostsuas thiab pab kom tau txoj kev muaj vaj huam sib luag (humanitarian) rau haiv neeg Hmoob nrog rau daws kom tau teeb meem tsoom Hmoob tawg rog nyob rau SE Asia".

http://www.hmonglaoradio.org/default.asp?active_page_id=32

From The Wire

Rapid Fire At Home Investigated
Saint Paul Pioneer Press (April 27, 2004)

Maplewood investigators suspect an arsonist set a weekend fire at the home of a prominent Hmong community leader, who is calling the blaze a politically motivated attempt to kill him and his family.

The fire destroyed the home of Cha Vang, son of Gen. Vang Pao, one of the most widely known and influential Hmong leaders in the United States.

http://fe.pennnet.com/News/Display_News_Story.cfm?Secti... ...

Cha Vang, his wife and their three daughters were asleep when the fire broke out after 1 a.m. Sunday. A noise, possibly the sound of breaking glass, prompted him to investigate and he discovered the flames toward the back of the home. He and his family escaped unharmed, but the fire left little more than the garage standing.

"If you want to terrorize a person or send a message, you slash a tire," Cha Vang said Monday. "To burn down a house with people sleeping in it is attempted murder."

Investigators said they suspect arson because the house burned so thoroughly within minutes, said Maplewood Police Chief Dave Thomalla. Investigators searched the soot and debris for evidence for a second day on Monday.

http://fe.pennnet.com/News/Display_News_Story.cfm?Secti... ...

1961
Eisenhower warns the young president-elect that Laos is a major crisis, the first "domino" in Southest Asia. The CIA begins the covert build up of Hmong forces under General Vang Pao at the beginning of the year. At the same time the U.S. sends the rightist forces to Laos six AT-6 Harvard trainer aircraft armed with machine guns and equipped to fire rockets and drop bombs. The covert PEO infantrymen are replaced by 400 clandestine U.S special forces personnel known as White Star Movile Training Teams. Kennedy announces U.S support for the sovereignty of Laos in March, directly confronting the Soviet Union. Geneva conference on Laos opens in May.

http://www.seacrc.org/pages/ravenschrono.html

http://www.ohiopowmia.com/news/2190302.html


COLEMAN HOSTS FIRST EVER MEETING BETWEEN HMONG LEADER


COLEMAN HOSTS FIRST EVER MEETING BETWEEN HMONG LEADER GENERAL VANG PAO AND SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL
Coleman working to alleviate humanitarian crises in Laos and streamline Hmong refugee resettlement process

January 21st, 2004 - Washington, DC - Senator Norm Coleman today hosted a meeting in his Senate office between Hmong leader General Vang Pao and Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and Pacific Affairs Matt Daley. The group, which also included Chao Ophat Nachmpassak, a member of the Lao royal family, discussed General Vang Pao's efforts to bring peace to Laos, the refugee resettlement program for Hmong in Thailand, and the humanitarian crisis facing many Hmong living in Laos.

"I have some serious concerns about the way the Hmong people are being treated today in Southeast Asia," Coleman said. "It's critical that the U.S. State Department does all it can to bring peace to Laos and an end to the humanitarian and refugee crises facing many Hmong in Southeast Asia. This meeting is a solid first step in opening up a real, meaningful diplomatic dialogue between Hmong leaders in Southeast Asia and the U.S. State Department."

General Vang Pao presented to State Department officials his vision for a lasting peace in Laos, as he publicly articulated on November 26. State Department officials listened to Vang Pao's presentation, and discussed the changing opportunities for peaceful reconciliation in Southeast Asia.

Daley, who had just returned from an official visit to the region, described the U.S. initiative to resettle in the U.S. as many as 14,000 Hmong refugees currently living in Wat Tham Krabok, Thailand

http://coleman.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&Pr
Hmong Proving Potent Political Organizers in U.S.
SuabHmongRadio, News Report,
Compiled and Translated by Pha Lo, Apr 30, 2004

MILWAUKEE, Wisc. -- Milwuakee is home to approximately 20,000 Hmong, a nomadic tribe that emigrated from Laos in the Vietnam War's aftermath. Here in the United States, Hmong are discovering that their traditional, clan-based system of leadership can benefit U.S.-style grassroots politicking.

Tens of thousands of Hmong left Laos in the 1970s and 1980s after losing a war in which they were covertly recruited to serve alongside the U.S. military. Here in the United States, many were naturalized as U.S. citizens after the Lao-Veterans bill, introduced in 1996, expedited the process for those who had served or been disabled in that war.

Since gaining citizenship, Hmong have begun to exercise their voting rights. This year marked a political rite of passage for Milwaukee-are Hmong who worked on Republican State Sen. Bob Welch’s campaign for the U.S. Senate. He won the Republican primary and will compete in general elections.

Wisconsin is home to approximately 40,000 Hmong.

Victor Vaj is a Hmong radio personality in Milwaukee who spent a year working on the State Senator’s campaign. For Vaj, seeing an older generation of naturalized citizen exercise voting rights fulfills a second purpose. It encourages the U.S.-born generation to use their birthright along with their traditional Hmong upbringing to pursue politics in this country.

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=9d4de22d1f

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive
Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive


By Elizabeth Putnam
Wausau Daily Herald
[e-mail]

The clan system remains an integral part of Hmong culture, but the assimilation of the Hmong into American culture is threatening the system's survival.

The Hmong clans
Original 12 Hmong clans
Cha, Hang, Her, Kue, Khang, Lee, Moua, Song, Thao, Vang, Xiong, Yang
The 18 clans of today
Cha, Cheng, Chue, Fang, Hang, Her, Khang, Kong, Kue, Lee, Lor, Moua, Pha, Thao, Vang, Vue, Xiong, Yang
Sources: "Mong Education at the Crossroads," by Paoze Thao and the Hmong Cultural and Resource Center of Minnesota at hmongcenter.org



Within Hmong culture, there are 18 clans, and members of each share the same last name. The clan leaders and members provide each other with social, economic and legal assistance. They help organize social events such as weddings and offer support during difficult times, as when a family member is ill.

"I think that in the future, most of the younger children now might lose that knowledge of the clan, but that's why we need to teach or educate the kids," said Chang Yang, 36, president of the board of the Wausau Area Hmong Mutual Association.

The origin of the clan system is a mystery, according to local Hmong residents and the book "Mong Education at the Crossroads," by Paoze Thao, a professor at California State University in Monterey Bay. Thao uses an alternate spelling of Hmong in his work.

Hmong folklore tells the story of a brother and sister who married and had a child who resembled a seed. They cut it up into 12 pieces and scattered them. The pieces made people, each representing a clan. The 12 clans eventually branched out into 18 clans.

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/291782635188000.shtml

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive in California
Tamara Keith
Fresno, California
08 Apr 2004, 19:28 UTC

Listen to Tamara Keith's report (RealAudio)
Keith report - Download 676k (RealAudio)

In just a few months as many as 3000 new Hmong refugees could arrive in California's Central Valley. For years they've been living in a makeshift camp at a broken-down Buddhist temple in Thailand. The Hmong people aided the United States during the Vietnam War and were forced to flee their home country of Laos as the war ended. Thousands have come to the U.S since the early 1980s, but nearly 15,000 remain on the temple grounds in Thailand. In December the State Department bowed to pressure from Hmong Americans and the Thai government and agreed to let this group of refugees immigrate. Tamara Keith reports on what Fresno community leaders are doing to prepare for the arrival.
Hmong refugee Pai Yang came to this country when she was 10 years old. Now she's the Refugee Resettlement Director for Catholic Charities in Fresno, helping families fill out the forms needed to bring their relatives over from Thailand. For Ms. Yang and others, the upcoming influx of new refugees came as a surprise. She said, "For our community this is like a very great time, a joyful time. To be able to have this opportunity to resettle in this country, to have the opportunity for education, health, etc."

On this morning, Ms. Yang is meeting with Pai-Yang Thao and her husband, who are hoping to sponsor 22 family members now living on the temple grounds in Thailand. The young couple visited the camp in December. They found it surrounded by armed guards, and the people there living with no electricity or running water.

"When we got there we felt very sad that they were living in a bad place and being caged up like animals," she said. "They can't go outside to find food and they're always waiting for us over here to send them money."

Ms. Thao can't wait for her parents, siblings, nieces and nephews to arrive in Fresno. She said that for her the reunion is like a dream come true. But, if past experience is any indication, her family will likely have a hard time adjusting to life here in the valley. Pai Yang says that when she arrived with her mother and sister in the 1980s, they struggled with the language and the culture. In Laos, her mother was a successful businesswoman, but here in California she had to pick tomatoes to make a living. Ms. Yang believes that many Hmong refugees had similar difficulties.
http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/291782635188000.shtml


400 protest opening trade with Laos
Minneapolis Star Tribune (subscription), MN - Apr 14, 2004
... older Hmong military veterans in camouflage fatigues and younger Hmong college students ... for the US government to pressure the communist leaders to address human ...
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/199810/15_radila_reform/


Duluth's Hmong Families Find Reform Pressure
By Amy Radil
October 15, 1998 RealAudio 2.0 14.4
Part of the MPR Welfare to Work Series

DULUTH'S SMALL HMONG COMMUNITY has been steadily growing over the past ten years. Late last year there were about 175 Hmong households in Duluth on the welfare rolls. But then Minnesota moved in to welfare reform and as they themselves admit, St. Louis County and the City of Duluth Job Training forgot the city's immigrants.

Bea Larson: There was a lot of initial panic and fear and initial orientation sessions had to be redone.
Bea Larson, is an instructor at the Adult Learning Center who teaches English as a second language classes. She soon learned the county had not only sent out letters informing Hmong recipents of the changes in English alone... it was also conducting required orientation sessions exclusively in English.

Larson: Initially people were asked to sign jobs plans that they didn't understand. A number of different folks with limited English had to be re-oriented in ways that they'd understand what they were agreeing to do.
Larson contacted Gwen Updegraaf, a legal aid attorney, who met with a group of Hmong welfare recipients who told her of further problems. The Minnesota Family Investment Program, or MFIP, legislation calls for participants to receive an individualized assessment with a job counselor, who helps them formulate a plan consisting of education, training or active job seeking. Updegraaf says instead, these people had pre-printed job forms instructing them to perform 30 hours of job search each week.

Updegraaf: There was no individualized assessment done with these people, no one sat down with them and determined how much English they spoke. Several people who had problems with their plans complained of disabilities.
Amidst the confusion, Hmong families began leaving Duluth for the Twin Cities. Reasons varied. Some wanted to join relatives, some wanted access to support services in their own language, and many found ready employment and higher wages. When Updegraaf contacted St. Louis County officials with her concerns, they agreed to allow Hmong immigrants to start over in the orientation process, this time with an interpreter, Bobbee Vang. Vang was hired with a grant from the McKnight Foundation to provide special support for Southeast Asians seeking jobs in Duluth.


My interest in Hmong started here in GD

lojasmo (219 posts) Sun May-02-04 01:24 AM
Original message
Police everywhere in duluth WTF


There was a police officer in the lobby of my hotel on canal point, and an oficer in the lobby of Grandma's restaraunt/bar.

In the cold war, reportedly, duluth was number seven on the list of probable nuclear targets.

Any ideas?

Jackpine Radical (1000+ posts) Sun May-02-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #25

27. OK--but why Duluth?


It's 150 miles north of the Twin Cities.

social workers and educators say it's been a struggle


FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The twin cities are home to the largest Hmong population in North America, about 60,000 people. They began arriving from Laos and Thai refugee camps in the late '70s, initially placed here by local church-based refugee relief groups. And while this community has plenty to celebrate, social workers and educators say it's been a struggle. Of all the Southeast Asian refugees who fled for the U.S., none was more reluctant or less prepared than the Hmong. Hmong music, artwork, and ceremonies depict an agrarian people who fled once, a century before, from China to almost total isolation in the hills of Laos. Until the mid-20th century, the Hmong did not have a written language or a currency.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/vietnam/hmong_5-4.html

2001 Hmong Population and Education in
the United States and the World
August 24, 2001
Researched and Collected by Dr. Vang Pobzeb

From 1975 to 1991, more than 500,000 people in Laos fled and became international political refugees in the world because of the legacy of the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia.


The Communist Lao and Vietnamese governments have been exterminating Hmong people in Laos since the end of the Vietnam War in 1975 and are still doing so today, because of Hmong people cooperated with the U.S. government during the Vietnam War. In 2001, witnesses in Laos have reported that many thousands of Communist Vietnamese soldiers are cooperating with the Communist Lao government of the Lao People's Democratic Republic (LPDR) to conduct an ethnic cleansing war, genocide and human rights violations against Hmong people in Laos. Therefore, we appeal to and call upon Hmong American intellectuals, educators and the general public to unify our leadership strategies and efforts in order to save the lives of Hmong people in Laos. We call upon all Hmong people to unify and work together to save the lives of Hmong people. Power politics in the world and global actors are remaining silent on the genocide against Hmong people in Laos because they are concerned with economics and commercial goods for themselves. They do not really care about human rights violations and genocide in Laos and in other parts of the world.

There are about 300,000 Hmong American people in the United States in 2001.


In 2001, there are approximately 80,000 Hmong American people in Minnesota; and 80,000 Hmong Americans in Wisconsin.


About 40,000 Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota, Wisconsin, and other states between 1996 and 2001.


About 70,000 Hmong Americans still live in California in 2001.


Many Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota and Wisconsin and other states because of the problems of welfare reforms and unemployment problems

http://www.laohumrights.org/2001data.html

Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier


Writing to an American who was confused about the Hmong people, Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier, wrote the following in 1996 (quoted from his e-mail to me, with permission):

The war in Vietnam was fought on several fronts and I served in two them. The main American battle ground was in the Southern end of South Vietnam. In order for the North Vietnamese forces to fight us there, it was necessary for their supplies and troops to go through Laos and Cambodia on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and Laos was controlled by a Pro-Communist Government at that time. Therefore America was not allowed to have any forces on the ground, although we were allowed to bomb and attack North Vietnamese troops with our aerial forces. About 99% of the combat forces on the ground were Hmong irregulars who were persuaded by Americans to forget about being neutral, and to fight the N. Vietnamese regulars (not relatively poorly trained Viet Cong guerrilla forces). We supplied air cover, but every combat trooper knows aircraft can't take and hold ground. We depended on the Hmongs to do this. Without modern arms, without medical help.
After the fall of Saigon we pulled out of Southeast Asia and left the Hmongs to continue the fight without air support. When we left, the Hmong had to fight both the Laotians and the N. Vietnamese. They could not fight tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft with rifles. A great many Hmongs were slaughtered in their villages. Many were slaughtered at airfields where they waited for evacuation planes that never came. A few were able to fight every foot of the way across Laos and cross the Mekong River into refugee camps in Thailand where they were further mistreated by rather corrupt UN and Thai officials. Out of a estimated 3,000,000 prewar Hmong population less than 200,000 made it to safety. One other ill informed or stupid writer said "they were all gone" meaning, I guess, that the combat Hmongs were all dead, they are wrong. Most of the survivors are in Australia, France and here among us.

Now I don't know about those heroes who have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I am embarrassed that my country so mislead these people. The Hmongs gave up literally everything for us: their country, their homes, their peaceful way of life, most of their families, everything that we would cherish. We promised them our continued support and then we bugged out.

You mentioned having relatives who fought in Vietnam and I hope they all survived. However their chances would have been much less if the Hmongs hadn't intercepted over 50% of the N. Vietnamese troops and supplies. If you truly loved your relatives, you should be grateful for the Hmongs' sacrifices.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/hmong.shtml




Attacks on Hmong leaders a puzzle
Herón Márquez Estrada And Chao Xiong, Star Tribune
May 2, 2004HMONG

The theories for the attacks range from payback for the assassination in Thailand in October 2002 of Pa Kao Her, a Hmong resistance leader, to clan rivalries and an internal squabble in Vang's organization, according to community leaders.

Community leaders say Her, decades ago, aligned himself with other clans to form political opposition to the general. Her's killer has never been discovered. But in some circles and on the Internet, people speculate about whether the general or his supporters might have been involved.

As a result, Young does not discount the assassination payback theory, even though he says the general was not involved. "In my mind that is a possibility," Young said.

He added that the violence, particularly the arson attack on the general's son and the drive-by shooting, also could be part of a clan feud aimed at the Vangs and not at the general in particular.

"We are hearing the same things you are," Thomalla said. "There is so much chatter going on. We are looking at a lot of different things."

Critical speech

Some community leaders believe the trigger of the current unrest might have been a speech the general gave on Nov. 26 at the Prom Center in Oakdale.

more
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1557/4753340.html

[amazona]

19. I don't care if the killer is a martian

It doesn't give him the right to murder 6 people -- a family, some un-arned running to help their fallen -- because he wants to possess their deer-hunting stand.

No excuse should be accepted for murder or terror. If these murders were committed for a political purpose, which I seriously doubt, it does not excuse the killer, it just makes him a terrorist instead of a psychotic.

[seemslikeadream]

24. You either mis read my post or didn't read it at all

Chai Vang, a Hmong, has been identified as the suspect. The Hmong are an ethnic group from the highlands of Laos who fought the communists alongside the CIA during the Vietnam War.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/22/uhunting.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/11/22/ixportaltop.html

Presidential campaigns court Hmong voters

Their decision could affect Minnesota race

BY TODD NELSON

Pioneer Press


Choua Lee was 22, an expectant mother and the first Hmong candidate in the country to run for office.

She also was the first to win, claiming a St. Paul School Board seat in 1991. Her unlikely candidacy got a big lift after clan leaders and community members rallied behind her. She came away the top vote-getter.

President Bush and Sen. John Kerry hope to do as well on Election Day. With Minnesota still up for grabs, the presidential campaigns are targeting new and prospective Hmong voters, who could help decide which candidate carries the state, as never before.

"This really is the first presidential election that there is this level of attention and outreach," said Choua Lee, who did not seek re-election after her first term and now is principal at St. Paul's Homecroft Elementary School, the first Hmong-American to lead a city school. "Both the Republicans and the Democrats have been doing an outstanding job of coming forward to understand what the Hmong issues are
more
http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/10006571.htm?1c


Posted on Sun, Nov. 21, 2004





Hmong protest legislation normalizing trade relations with Laos

Associated Press


APPLETON, Wis. - Close to 200 Hmong residents in the state protested Saturday a new tariff bill normalizing trade relations with Laos.

The U.S. Senate passed the legislation Friday, but also approved a resolution by Sen. Norm Coleman, R-Minn., condemning the country's human rights record. The House had already approved the bill.

The issue has divided Hmong in America because of the secretive Laotian government's checkered human rights record, especially its treatment of the Hmong ethnic group. The Hmong fought on the side of the United States during the Vietnam War.

"They put trade before human rights," said Chao Vang, one of the rally's organizers. "As long as Laos got the trade, they might not listen to anybody."

Wisconsin has the third-highest Hmong population in the United States, and a new wave of them are being resettled in the state this year.
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http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/10240527.htm


Posted Nov. 19, 2004


Refugees at a glance
The 15,000 Hmong refugees headed for the United States live in Wat Tham Krabok, a Buddhist temple north of Bangkok in Thailand that serves as a refugee camp. Sixty percent of the refugees are 18 years old or younger. Fifty percent are 14 and younger. A third are between 19 and 55.

Of an estimated 4,000 to 5,000 school-age children at the camp, fewer than 1,000 can afford to attend local Thai school where they are taught in Thai and may attend up to sixth grade. About 1,000 children attend camp school to learn English taught by Hmong teachers.

Source: Department of Settlement and Immigration Services, Catholic Charities, the agency contracted to resettle Hmong refugees in northeastern Wisconsin



Laos trade bill angers Hmong

Vote on normal relations should get Senate OK


Staff and wire sources

WASHINGTON — The Senate is expected to approve normalizing trade relations with Laos, capping a 20-month effort by the Bush administration that has angered members of the Hmong community in the United States.

The Laos provision is tucked into a larger trade bill that deals with tariffs and other issues. The House already has approved the bill, meaning passage by the Senate would send it to President Bush to sign into law.

At issue is the communist Laotian government’s checkered human rights record, especially its treatment of the Hmong ethnic group, which opponents say should not be rewarded with a trade deal. Supporters argue that the best way to improve Laos’ behavior is through engagement.

The Senate vote comes as more than 200 Hmong from throughout Wisconsin plan to protest in Appleton Saturday against what it says are Lao government’s efforts to kill America’s former Vietnam War allies living in that country.

Chao Vang said Thursday that Hmong families with relatives remaining in Laos recruited him to help organize the rally, which is scheduled to run from 10 a.m. to noon at Zion Lutheran Church, 912 N. Oneida St.
more
http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_18689944.shtml

[Walt Starr]

18. Heard a sixth had died from the injuries

[cheezus]

23. Well, it's not like the ANIMALS can shoot back, so....

I guess it's finally a "sport" instead of just killing for fun