Folks, we've turned into Republicans

[Paragon]

OK, pretend I'm Will Pitt for one minute and read this.

1. Florida has so scared the shit out of us that we're willing to do anything - ANYTHING - to win an election. After all, that's how the Republicans "won" Florida, right? The answer to winning back the House, Senate, Supreme Court, and White House IS NOT and NEVER WILL BE to act like Republicans. You "fight fire with fire" and you've got an out-of-control blaze -- you take "an eye for an eye" and everybody's blind. We're cheering not only Bustamente's backstabbing of Davis, but the fact that he's giddily pro-death penalty, and is not below using Republican tactics to get millions in campaign money. Having a (D) after his name does not exclude him from scrutiny.

2. Speaking of money - it's the root of all evil, and if half the posts here are to be believed, the ONLY way to win elections. We'll never hope to match the gazillions that Bush is raising for '04, but are we quitting? HELL, NO -- because we know our candidates are better, and believe that people can see through a 30-second ad with The Chimp's dumb, smirking face in front of a flapping American flag.

3. The discourse on DU lately rivals that of our FReeper freakazoids. Al Franken is calling them "big fat idiots" and "lying liars" because he's a SATIRIST making a comment on FReeper-style discourse. You'll never see him really using that type of language because he's SMARTER than that -- and, I thought, so were we. If I see one more thread calling someone a "whore", I'm gonna vomit.

4. And, finally -- we are so busy eating ourselves alive bashing each other's candidates that there'll be nothing left of us come next November. Half the people in this country who are eligible to vote are either not registered or don't vote, but we still demonize Ralph Nader and Arianna Huffington. I don't care if you're set on voting for Dean or Kerry or Kucinich or Clark or the goddamn Easter Bunny - this will all shake out as part of the process and in the end, we'll all back the right person. UNTIL then, give other DUer's choice the respect you would expect for your own.

There is no "struggle for the soul of the party", no "Democratic wing" -- we all know why we're here, why we vote the way we do. The problem is that we (and especially the Dems who represent us) are so scared by a wolverine-like Republican Party that we don't have the courage to be OURSELVES. I hope to God that changes now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Hey look..I LOVE ya..but I WANT TO WIN THIS ELECTION

and I don't care if I have to fuck the devil on the hood of my car to do it.

It would be like going to war unarmed because you don't believe in violence...problem is you will NEVER MAKE a difference in all that VIOLENCE if they shoot you dead...

Principles are a wonderful thing to have....DEFEAT DOES NOT SIT EASY with me and although I disagree with what it is taking to accomplish this SURPRISE election, I am NOT SORRY FOR IT.

edited to make sure you know I am referencing the California recall election...I'll do Pollyanna in November.

[Paragon]

7. Yeah, but how would you feel the next morning?

I always wondered where that "hood of the car" story of yours came from. :silly:

If anyone but a Republican wins California, I'll be happy, too. But you certainly wouldn't want it getting out to your constituents that you copulated with the Prince of Darkness to win the election, either.

[bleedingheart]

8. somehow I bet Satan ain't bad in the sack..

;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. It's either fuck him or elect him... I really don't care

what I wouldn't want in a make or break or life or death situation is someone standing next to me saying..."no, sorry, I can't shoot that guy coming at us with a bazooka...I have my principles don't you know!"

[Terwilliger]

13. heh!

you're nothing if not rational (beats the shit outta me :hi: )

Uh...I wish I knew what to do :shrug:

[DuctapeFatwa]

39. And what exactly will you imagine you have won?

If you have a "Democrat" in the white house, and the same soldiers dying of the same "accidental falls" in the same countries, the same Americans getting the same pink slips, the same poor people getting poorer, the same dysfunctional schools continuing their dysfunction, and the same whopping dollop of your tax dollars going to fund the torture and slaughter of Palestinians and the depopulation of Africa.

Will it all be somehow better if it comes wrapped in a piece of greasy paper with "Democrat" printed on it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Read my post..I am only referencing the California recall election

[DuctapeFatwa]

45. oh I thought you were just using them as examples

of Democrats using Republican tactics

[kixot]

2. Why don't you get a brain, moran!! And go back to DUh where you belong.

OMG, you're right!!! :spank:

[bleedingheart]

3. My grandfather fought to unionize the mines

and it took strikes and fighting back to get the rights we enjoy today. (weekends, fairer wages,..etc)

I have two beautiful kids and I am ready to fight to give them a better nation in which to live in...

[Poisonskin23]

4. Well

Fighting fire with water works.

In theory anyhow.

[Spentastic]

48. Yeah

It's amazing isn't it. How many fire engines do you see equipped with flame throwers, molotovs and napalm.

The best way to fight republican fire is to smother it with Democratic policy foam.

[SaveABug]

5. All I can say

You must have put some time into that.
I hope you are taken for what you are seen by me as.
Not someone with a certain number of posts, but a bitter person who has, against the DU rules, personally attacked someone.

If I had some pull around here, I would say good bye. Pretend what you wrote was from someone else? Did I miss something here?

Pretend to be yourself next time.

[Flying_Pig]

6. You can ditto "Nothing's" stance here....

I've been a "fighting" Democrat for 35 years, and I am here to tell you, that "pink tutus" lose every time. Politics is a dirty business, and that's the way it is. I wish it were different, but it's not. If I get some "dirt" on myself kicking Republican butt, well, I wear it as a badge of honor, because it IS an honor to fight fascists, and to help preserve our democracy.

[Paragon]

10. That's my point, Pig

I thought my inflammatory rhetoric would show that I'm as willing as anyone to fight TOUGH. "Fighting dirty" is something that Republicans do, and it costs them every time. Ask Trent Lott. Or Bob Livingston. Or Newt Gingrich. Or Michael "Savage" Weiner, and on and on...

[bleedingheart]

12. Lott, Gingrich and Weiner have become very very rich

fighting dirty....

Republicans fight like hell to win public office so they can use that experience to sell themselves as lobbyists to industry...

I wouldn't advocate lying or cheating to win... but I do advocate fighting hard... the quiet demeanor of Daschle and Gephardt, while admirable, has not really won the hearts of the american people..

[Occulus]

15. but see,

by fighting dirty, they themselves are dirty. Since they are legislators, I would think the 'clean hands doctrine' would apply.

I could be wrong; I'm no lawyer.

[Paragon]

16. And look where that's got them

All three of them are now jokes and politically inert because of their willingness to play dirty.

And anyone who's heard me rant on here knows that I don't exactly have a "quiet demeanor" - hell, I'm voting for Dean! He's popular because he's not afraid to speak up, speak out. I have yet to see him "fight dirty", and doubt he would ever stoop so low.

[kodi]

35. DUH! it got them control of all 3 branches of the goverment

or did you miss that while writing your sermon on the mount?

one, two, or three of their soldiers goes down and another one, two or three just like them takes their place.

[kodi]

34. yeap, i ain't gandhi or jesus and i will hit back when sucker punched.

the problem i have seen in the last 25 years is that the people running the democratic party are a bunch of pussys, and are not the ones who had gotten their hands dirty and faces bloodied trying to secure equality and rights for the people, like union organizers and civil rights martyrs...real heroes like john lewis are far and few between in our party leadership anymore.

what we have now are people who use the democratic party as an avenue for personal power and wealth and have either forgotten what this party was supposed to fight for, or worse, forgotten what the other side is capable of doing when they have the upper hand.

65 years ago, labor knew it's enemies and that they were capable of violence and murder, and this recognition of the character of their foes was learned from broken heads and bullet wounds. that the gop goons dont use those tactics now is only because brave men and women stood up and challenged them at that level....if shit like the recount riots in florida by gop operatives happens again, i will be in the thick of that fucking crowd and do what i must to physically secure my rights from those bullying, nazi bastards.

politics ain't spit ball. its the roughest game in town and those who pull some sort of rodney king bullshit rhetoric and sit quietly sucking their teeth and watch us get rolled by some Borg-like opposition are as culpable of the consequences of what happens to this nation as those who purpetrate it.

the callused hands of the labor and civil rights movements needs to grab the wheel of the democratic party and fight for our rights. we can't leave it to blow-dried consultants and lobbyists that squat on k street and dine with the enemies of what this party stands for.

i have very few republican or conservative friends. frankly, i cant stand them for the crap they spew and the lies they tell. i kicked one room-mate right out of my house when he started in with racist, homophobic remarks to a house guest and reminded him as he left that if i had been like him he would have starved without me taking him in when he was jobless.

what was that line sean connery said in the "untouchables?".......
"they bring a knive to a fight, you bring a gun, they put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue."

if you aren't willing to stand and fight for what you believe in, you aren't worth a shit.

[Paragon]

51. Yee-HAW!

If I'm writing "sermons on the mount", you're writing B-movie dialogue. And you've proven my point beautifully - you may not be a Republican, but you sure act like one.

I think you coulda been a helluva a Dixiecrat 50 years ago. As it is now, you're just another person confusing fighting dirty with fighting tough. Thanks for helping me out!

[kodi]

53. strange how i would fight for your rights but you would not for mine.

the weakass attitude in the words of your post is what is basically wrong with the democractic party and is a real life example of the caricature used against us of the chablis drinking and bree eating wimps that infect this party.

since you clearly dont know the difference between fighting tough and fighting dirty, you would be unable to do either.

i get the impression from the adolescent mental masturbatory illusions of your post that all it is is merely an intellectual exercise of some teen-ager and that you have never put your actual body in harm's way for your beliefs.

with attitudes like your post's it is small wonder that the real democrats who have sacrificed to help the the poor, the labor movement and civil rights ignore or distain you johnny-come-latelys to the fight.

your wrong-headed and disgusting attempt to imply my racism by calling me is dixicrat is noted and is plainly the ignorant rant of someone with little real world experience. if someone actually said that to my face i would likely kick their teeth down their throat.

that you would hide behind the anonymity of this site and say it so casually is prima facia evidence of someone whom i suspect is a personal coward.

but i will give you a chance, i live in atlanta, and am willing to meet you within 250 miles of atlanta. all you have to do is set the time and place so you can repeat your remarks to my face.

i really ought to send my 72 year old father to meet you, so he can show you the scars on his head from the beating he took in '55 from the company goons who beat him while he was helping to organize a labor union at his company.

[Paragon]

54. OK, you're a nut

Goodbye.

[kodi]

57. and U R incapable of backing up your words.

which is clearly the problem you have with others who are.

[unfrigginreal]

9. Weve taken the high road for a decade now...

what do we have to show for it? I'll tell ya', a GOP in the WH, a GOP majority in the House and a Gop majority in the Senate.

Now is not the time to go wobbly, we must fight fire with fire, even to the point that we don't allow the media to choose our Democratic nominee.

BTW, you are dead wrong about Al Franken, you need to buy his book.

[Paragon]

11. I've read his book, cover to cover

And like I said to Flying_Pig, he's fighting TOUGH, not "dirty". He's using the truth and humor to get his point across, as opposed to the outright lies and fabrications of the Coulters & O'Reillys & Hannitys out there.

My whole point is that we're getting dirty, not tough. There is a difference.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. My philosophy (not that you asked) is I hit a gutter ball with

a gutter bat. :D

[BurtWorm]

28. I basically agree with you

I'm thinking about the almartinraw.com threads that bought uncritically into those wild stories about 70 dead operatives and Karl Rove being the spawn of Nazis. I don't know if they're true. My gut says too baaaaad to be true. But this is the kind of shit freepers have been churning out for years, just mindlessly passing out this undigested shit, straight from the ratfucking factory, for years. And it's a little unsettling to see Dems chewing on the same rotten meat. I'd like to think our standards were higher than that.

And yet...

I still firmly believe in the death of a million cuts. Any way the cuts land is fine by me. But you won't catch me engaging in any of that scandal-mongering. Not if I can help it.

[chadm]

52. We must fight fire with water

Fire destroys, water gives life.

[Occulus]

14. Ok.

I'll just take a very deep, calm breath here....

point-by-point:

1. I agree with everything after your first two sentences. We are simply unwilling to steal an election. If a county is solidly Republican, and it somehow goes Dem in a landslide while lacking any visible support for the Dem candidate, I myself would be very suspicious and would press for a full and open investigation into the matter. Particularly so if electronic voting machines were used. I expect most here would share the same sentiment.

2. Money is not the root of all evil- the love of money is the root of all evil. I have had to be corrected on thie exact thing in the past; it's very easy (and dangerous) to confuse the two ideas. Demonizing money removes from our arsenal the sole tool we have to combat forces which would tear out of our hands the ability to govern ourselves. Those forces are the same ones who love money. Why do they want our government? Because then they can have all the money they want. Since money, in our society at least, is power, well, you get my point.

3. You are correct about the nature of some of the posts her on DU lately. I think perhaps we're all waiting for the other shoe to drop, and the tension is very high indeed around here as a result. However, I think the use of the word 'whore' is appropriate for those who are willing to shamelessly put their faces and voices and words to the lies we hear spewing forth from this maladministration on a daily basis; they are visibly selling themselves for money and power as well. I could name names, but you said you'd vomit if I did. :)

4. I think you're right here as well. We desperately need to stop the deankerry<candidate> bashing that goes on here. I also think you're right that in the end we'll most of us unite behind a single candidate with a strong, clear message. My own personal decision will not be made until I actually vote.

I think it will change. I think we're on the cusp of a truly watershed moment in American history. It will begin with the next Democratic president, continue with a revocation of corporate personhood and the advent of universal health care, and from there who knows?

The fact is that Mr. Bush is the single most ineffective and incompetant American to sit in the Oval Office. A hard yank to the left could easily mark the beginning of a bit of a golden age for our country, but only if we have the heart, nerve, and brains to pull it off.

[Maple]

18. I've been an observer of

American politics since Eisenhower...and I have no idea where this image of Democrats being delicate, above-the-fray, pink tutu types comes from!

Dems fought for union rights, civil rights, and women's rights.

And there wasn't anything delicate or gentle about it.

It's politics for heaven's sakes....and in about as serious a situation as your republic has ever been in.

If you DON'T get tough...and dirty...it's four more years of Bush.

I realize i'm just an onlooker...but it seems like an easy choice to me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. People don't remember Sam Rayburn

[BurtWorm]

24. Didn't he host the Match Game?

Seriously, you don't have to go all the way back to Sam Rayburn. Tip O'Neill, smarmy and slick as he was, was a master politician and tough guy. Remember when he shamed Newt Gingrich by having C-SPAN turn the cameras around to show him bloviating to an empty chamber? Jesse Jackson, before he was neutralized, was a fighter. Barney Frank. Charley Rangel. There are some Dems with fangs. And there are some feisty young Dems coming up. My state Senator, the deputy minority leader in the NY Senate, is loaded for Republican bear.

[Occulus]

22. I think you're onto something there.

We should counter with those things Dems have done in the past when we're tarred like that. We somehow forget it all happened or something.

Thanks for the reminder. :hi:

[Terwilliger]

20. Hey man

well done

somebody's got to carry the banner


ABB '04: Anything But Bullshit!

[shugah]

23. the courage to be ourselves

one of the reasons i love DU--even tho we are all anonymous posters on a message board, we all have the courage to be ourselves.

i don't think it's unreasonable to want our elected representatives to be their-selves either, but i also want them to represent the people that elect them.

very true, there is no struggle for the soul of the party--because it is only all of us individuals with our thoughts, and beliefs, and sacredly held causes that gave the party a soul in the first place.

maybe that is the difference between republicans and democrats. at the end of the day, the republican party has no soul, and is not searching for it. the democrats are millions of separate souls, searching for a home.

there is no "soul" of the democratic party. we are, basically, the people who care about other people, who believe that society is a place we all must learn to live in, that want the american dream as much as the next guy--but not at the expense of others, that, in our hearts, believe there is a better way...in short, dems are not repukes. :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Excellent post Shugah!!!

:hi: but we ain't no frikkin' girl scouts either. :D

[Paragon]

26. Damn

Was really hoping to see you in a Brownie outfit one day. :silly:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. I didn't say we don't role play now and then

but I think I'd still look better in a cop uniform :D

[realFedUp]

27. It's not personal

It's just business.
In CA, Arianna and Peter will be spoilers for the
Dem and Indie votes. Neither has political experience.
I think each would make good Congress reps and suggest
they try that first.
I like what they are saying, but reality means we
don't lose California to the Republicans.

[haymaker]

29. Speak for yourself,

thanks.

[shance]

30. Thanks Paragon***

Right on Target.

The ONLY and I repeat, only way we are going to save our nation is to work together.

I have to agree about these various opportunists like Bustamante, and have of course I have gotten flamed in the process from well meaning people who dont seem to look at the initial injustice at hand.

Bustamante may be a "nice guy", but how nice is it to place his own power-grabbing opportunity as Governor over the highest good of California and the Democratic Party?

I remain convinced I wouldnt want him on my team because he seems to have a preference of helping our opponents while hes busy preparing his speech in the wings. Bottom line he should have stuck by Davis, no matter what their differences. Mature individuals who exemplify leadership skills do not put their own self-interest above what is best for all. Now Californians need to teach a lesson to those who,have deluded themselves into believing that they are the chosen, and have ultimately monopolizes on this huge injustice to all taxpayers in Californina by sending a RESOUNDING NO IN OCTOBER!!!!

Texas Dems are a great example for us Democrats, Progressives and any minority being abused by those who are abusing privelege and power. The Texas Dems have stood tall for a long time now. They may lose this battle, but they wont lose the war, and those guys are people I WANT ON MY TEAM.

I dont want opportunists on my team, in my opinion they arent Democrats, and one thing is for certain, they have not learned the valuable lesson and power of loyalty.

[JackDragna]

31. The reason you see language..

..like "whore" on here is because people come here to vent about public personalities they see as selling their souls to monied interests. Few of us would use that sort of language in public, either. Are you really admonishing people here for being overly dramatic or slanderous when they speak? Do you seriously think DU is some forum for serious, thoughtful discussion when a topic like Ann Coulter comes up? I appreciate your sentiments, but dear God, you appear to be a tad sanctimonius. Spare me.

[Terwilliger]

32. problem with that is

it's not exactly a defense against the assertion

Are we all Americans, or only some of us? Are we all interested in the same goals, or do Dems agree with the ultimate goals of the Republicans?

[JackDragna]

46. I'm not sure what goals you're talking about..

..but getting after people for venting about people of the other political persuasion is the height of ridiculousness. This is an internet board, not a center for formalized debate.

[Paragon]

33. I'm sorry

Feel free to use "whore" as much as you like. I hear "bitch" and "slut" are popular with the kids these days, too.

By the way, isn't invoking God while accusing someone of being sanctimonious kind of...sanctimonious? :dunce:

[JackDragna]

47. Not really.

I'm not trying to lord my opinion over others.

[John_H]

36. My conscience sees your point.

But the rest of me has work to do. Please help as much as you feel you can.

Edited for freeper whore spelling of conscience

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Democat]

43. Free Speech

:)

[Lexingtonian]

40. No, we haven't turned into Republicans

1. Yes, we are the party of the civilized and the downtrodden. But we're in the position of adults working against a set of gangbangers. We don't fully go down to their level- but there is a necessity to demonstrate our seriousness, to go into the trenches sometimes and make a point that we won't be intimidated and can match them even at their own game.

1a. Bustamente's importance is as a genuine symbol of rising Latino/non-white power and participation in power. No, that doesn't put him above scrutiny, but it changes the weight given to offenses against the existing conventions.

2.-3.-4. I think you are taking the tempests in the teapot that is DU too seriously. People don't have more important things to occupy themselves with so they start filling their time with making judgments on things that they don't know enough about (and usually are far from maturity). Politics is full of immaturity- it's the perpetual struggle of the less immature with the more immature, and the few truly mature intervene as they can to keep things from escalating into real destruction.

5. Don't forget that what matters is not what one website or one political Party is up to. What matters is what the People, Out There, really wants, what it really needs, and whether the lives of the better and best of them can be lived to anywhere near realization of their creative potential. All the stuff here is details and commentary. Important details, to be sure, and variously intriguing or dull commentary, but always secondary to the actual lives and effects on them and real history.

[Democat]

41. In politics, winners are the only ones with power

If the Republicans fight dirty, what other option is there than to fight dirty back?

The line that cannot be crossed is breaking the law, other than that, they are the ones dragging us down in the mud, we have no choice but to fight.

Being a "nice loser" is not an option anymore.

[VolcanoJen]

44. Well, I just finished reading Vanity Fair's expose of Norton...

... and more specifically, Steven Griles, the mining industry wunderkind who really runs the Department of the Interior.

I was absolutely shaking with anger :grr: :mad: :grr: as I read that article... truly the most disturbing round-up yet of the Bush Administration's assault on the environment. A must-read for everyone on DU; you truly have no idea until you've absorbed this article's allegations.

Your point is well-taken, Paragon, but I can honestly say that I'd rather be a winner than rest on my moral highground laurels, while they further dismantle everything that makes our nation great.

I've noticed a turn, too... but that's the scent of a fighter you smell.

[Q]

50. Do you honestly think that 'winning' will change everything?

- And what makes you think the 'dismantling' won't continue under a 'republican-lite' president? The whole system is corrupted...and a Democratic president won't have the power to make changes without the full cooperation of the Democratic party. As you may have heard...a good portion of the party (new democrats) seem to agree with many of Bush's* policies for a 'smaller government' that serves only the wealthy.

- The 'moral high ground' may be our one and only chance to change the current course of this country.

[Q]

49. Why would you want to be Pitt...even for a moment?

- Be yourself, for hell sakes.

- And you're simply wrong when you say there's no 'struggle for the soul of the party'. There is indeed a struggle...that will determine which direction the Dem party will go. The trend towards RWing politics and policies is obvious.

- Many of us don't want to become Republican-lite in order to win elections or for any other reason. It's not worth the cost of our 'soul'.

[dpbrown]

55. Russ Feingold won in Wisconsin sticking to his guns on public money

And I think the Presidential candidates ought to do it as well.

[Skittles]

56. I'LL CALL A WHORE A WHORE IF I F***ING FEEL LIKE IT

I'm THROUGH being civil with these people. DONE.

[Uzybone]

58. Rubbish

We will not do ANYTHING to win an election. You may be speaking for yourself there. I dont see anyone advocating purging voter rolls and using rigged machines and the like. Saying Democrats will do ANYTHING to win must have come right out of someones ass because it desnt come from reality.

In one point you say some are giving Bustamante a free pass and then later you cry that we are bashing ourselves too much. Which one is it?

Money is essential to win elections whether you like it or not. the only reason Bush will have a chance in 2004 ios his blood and oil money that he goes about the country collecting from fat cats. Kuchinich (sp) may be the best candidate out there, but he wont win a thing if he cant get his message out there. Ans without money, you have no way to get your message out.

The DU discourse has changed little since I first logged in here in December 2000. Some prefer to be harsh tongued others are not. No big deal.