My message to the "Christian" conservatives....

[kentuck]

I have nothing against you personally. In fact, I think it is quite admirable that you try to live a "moral" life in the context of the written word of the Bible. You have that right in America. I would never try to prevent you from believing what you believe.

However, there are many people in this country that do not agree with you. They do not believe in religion at all. And in this country, they also have the right to believe what they want, the same as you.

Not to be too blunt, but they think you would be better off and the country would be better off if you kept your big noses out of the personal lives of everyone else. Not to seem harsh, but you have no right to try and dictate your morals on anyone else. And once you get out of your place of worship and take your religion into the political arena, you have crossed the line.

We cannot accept that. America will not accept that. Save yourselves before you try to save the world.

(on edit, moved " ) :)

[prodigal_green]

1. If they don't want separation of church and state

then their churches can start paying taxes like the rest of us.

[walldude]

4. Hell yeah, starting out with every single church

that passed out political materials. I seem to remember someone from the NAACP spoke out for Kerry and the fundie lawyers went right to work trying to remove their tax exempt status...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. I, too, am praying for the Rapture

so that with any luck the fundies will be snatched away to wherever they figure on going, leaving the rest of us to get ahold of what's left of the world and clean up the mess without interference from a bunch of nutty anti-science Taliban-wannabees.

[mom-mad-about-bush]

16. Has anyone read the book....The Science of God

by: Gerald L. Schroeder??? I just started it, and it is very interesting. It basically proves that the science of evolution proves creation. Therefore, there is no need for even the most religious "nut" to ignore science. This has been what I have been thinking for years. "Why is so hard to believe that creation could not have existed without evolution, and evolution could not have existed without creation????"

Another thought I have had for as long as I can remember is: If God (or our creator) created everyone and everything....he/she created us all to be different; we look different, we speak different, we enjoy different things.....then why is it so hard to believe that our creator may have created more than one religion???? Maybe all of the religions are worshiping the "One God", and that is the way it is meant to be. Would that be so hard to believe???

[UNIXcock]

3. Our humble church forces no one to attend

... EOM

[pinkpops]

5. Move the quotes "Christian" conservatives.

[fugue]

6. No, "Christian conservatives"

They're neither.

[duker63]

8. my favorite thing is to quote the bible

like this
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

[w4rma]

9. I find the best way to interpret the Bible is to give #1 priority to Jesus

Christ himself. Anything that his disciples said that he said takes priority over everything else in the Bible. Then the teachings of his disciples take second priority.

And just about anything at all (with the notable exception of the Ten Comandments themselves, which were said to have been written by God himself) in the Old Testiment takes *last* priority except as a historical document on the history of the Hebrew people.

[w4rma]

10. I find the best way to interpret the Bible is to give #1 priority to Jesus

Christ, himself over *everything* else in the Bible. What his disciples say he said is top priority. Then the teachings of his disciples have second priority.

Anything and everything in the Old Testiment (with the notible exception of the Ten Comandments which Moses said was written by God, himself) takes *last* priority except as a historical document on the history of the Hebrew people.

[immoderate]

18. May I submit...

...that instead of histories, the words in the Bible are the lessons of a civilization. There is wisdom there. But it lies in interpretation of the stories. Leave out the magic, and you have lessons about mankind, and womankind if you like.

The ten commandments can probably be cut down to five that concern us. Do you really worry about graven images, keeping the Sabbath, taking names in vain, etc? Some others are good, though. But if you didn't hear about them, would you murder and steal? I always wonder why people got married before the commandment about adultry came down.

The Garden of Eden describes human self awareness, and the Tower of Babel warns what happens when projects become more important than humanity.

What I'm saying is the Bible is literature and has meaning, like Homer, Shakespeare, Dante, Twain. It's about us, and devoid of it's burden of divine revelation, it still is a revelation. You know: "To everything there is a season."

Worship gets you nothing, but knowledge gets you everything.

--IMM

[kentuck]

21. Very well said...

"What I'm saying is the Bible is literature and has meaning, like Homer, Shakespeare, Dante, Twain. It's about us, and devoid of it's burden of divine revelation, it still is a revelation. You know: "To everything there is a season."

Worship gets you nothing, but knowledge gets you everything."



==========================================
But how would we know that people even got married before the Commandment about "adultery" came down???

[immoderate]

23. Cause the Bible tells us so?

Seriously, there are records of marriage before Biblical literature. However I am guessing it meant different things to different societies, including chattel.

BTW, I've taken note and admired many of your posts as well Kentuck, as well as many of the other rationalist types around here. What a great place this is!

--IMM

[Timebound]

7. Their brand of hate is NOT what Christianity is supposed to be about.

It makes me ashamed to associate myself with Christianity, almost. Geez. Jesus wasn't all about the hate. I mean, they threw an adulterss to him, and he said the famous 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' line.

So many 'christian conservatives' would do well to remember that verse. That, and 'judge not, lest ye be judged.'

Whatever a person decides to do with their life is between them and God. If they are a gay couple and want to get married, it is none of the goverment's (or anyone else's) business.

[jarab]

11. Well said, kentuck ...

Seems as though all we have are words, however. I see no imminent solutions to the marriage of conservative religion and politics.
And, when it crosses the line - and it has imo - at what point would it then become "personal" as a matter of survival? They made it personal long ago with the "abortion clinic murders", as an example.
Is it appropriate for them to make it "personal" while we abstain?
...O...

[meow2u3]

12. You can also suggest the best way to "push" your morals is by example

If you have to push your morals on others, you have to live them, and hope your example rubs off on others. This is how real Christians are commanded to evangelize.

Preach by example--not by intimidation!!

[kentuck]

13. By ye works, ye shall be known...

Indeed !

[immoderate]

19. Love that line...

--IMM

[mom-mad-about-bush]

17. Isn't it interesting how the conservatives have a higher divorce rate

than the liberals???? I find that so interesting. Yes, I think the "moral" majority should be preaching by example and not with their votes.

[immoderate]

24. Lowest divorce rate--Massachusetts

Highest divorce rate--Arkansas.

Here's a good one: Only 0.2% of prison inmates are atheists or agnostic.

--IMM

[recovering democrat]

14. They don't get it

I have even tried having logical "Christian" disagreements. As an example, here are the responses I got to mentioning that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" had a period at the end of it, not a list of exceptions. I included some New Testament stuff also. They assured me I was wrong. These are from two right-wing "Christian" ministers.

1. The commandment to not kill is related to murder. Otherwise, the same God that said "Thou shalt not kill" would not have also commanded the government authorities to execute those who commit capital offenses. Neither would He have commanded His people to engage in warfare to execute enemies, as He did many times in the Old Testament. What are "peacemakers"? You seem to imply that peacemakers are passivists, people who wouldn't defend their country. Terrorists would love folks like you. It makes their job easier.

2. Read your Bible again and see how many times God told His government leaders to kill. Abraham (Isaac); Moses, Joshua, Samson, Solomon, Samuel (remember King Agag), David. Then remember Jesus telling His Disciples to carry their swords for self-defense. Remember Peter pronouncing judgment (death) over Ananias & Saphira. Then Paul speaks of the right of Government to bear the sword (meaning to wage war and to kill criminals). It is you who needs to re-read the Bible and get a true picture of this subject. Christians who defend themselves are not committing murder. A nation that defends itself against an enemy who had attacked and killed its citizens is doing its duty and is supported by scripture. President Bush is a Christian leader who is defending you and all of us against an enemy who wants to kill us. Iraq included. Stop listening to the lies of appeasers who would allow your enemies to come after you and kill you.

3. Scriptures must be interpreted along with other Scriptures on the same subject. There are numerous Scriptures that you ignore about killing. God told His people to kill enemies in war on many occasions. Romans 13:1-6 says that governmental authorities bear the sword to execute wrath. A sword means they kill those evil doers. Capital offenses require capital punishment. I have already told you these things and you refuse to pay attention to them. But, the truth is if God told certain authorities to kill and also gave a commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill", and if that commandment means that others aren't to be killed by any authority ever for any reason, God contradicted Himself. He meant that you and I aren't to kill someone because we choose to do that. He never intended that commandment to be for governmental authorities when someone is incarcerated for a capital offense, such as murder. You say that it says "Thou shalt not kill." Period. No exceptions. Does that include houseflies? Or, is it just people that it is talking about? How can you say it is just people and not houseflies when it says, "Thou shalt not kill." Period. No exceptions, you said. If houseflies can be killed, that would be an exception. If that could be an exception, couldn't it be possible that an exception that the Bible actually says would be permissible also? If you aren't willing to accept the Bible, which of us is really the closed-minded one?

I decided it was time to quit trying, but I am still consiering a reply about the houseflies.

[mom-mad-about-bush]

15. To take any version of the Bible, and live your life by the context of

those words...is a bit naive. Reading the Bible is one thing. But, where did those words comes come from???? Even if the Bible is the literal "word of God".....those words were written thousands of years ago...and not in English. Anyone that knows anything about the English language (or any language for that matter), knows that it is impossible to get an exact translation. And, even more importantly the same words we use today have not always meant the same thing. So, even if the meaning of some of these words have changed one time (and they probably have changed much more than that in thousands of years) think of how easily the interpretation of those words could be confused. And, this is not just speculation, this is based on fact. Many, many experts in foreign languages and translation, have documented that many misinterpretations have occurred. Man is fallible, and man is who has interpreted and reinterpreted the Bible, so to assume that no mistakes were made is simply naive. And don't forget, the leaders of all religions are also "human" and fallible. You can believe that Jesus Christ is your Saviour, and still have a mind of your own.....really.

Yes, it is admirable that these people are trying to live their life by the word of God. But, wouldn't it be ashame if after all of that they were really living their life based on misinterpretations of the word of God? As a "recovering" Catholic and a Christian, I think living your life the way God would want you to is very important. And the one fact that everyone knows about how Jesus led his life, was to help the needy, the sick, and the poor. Since no one was around to ask Jesus how he felt about abortion or stem cell research, none of us should be as presumptuous as to say we know how God feels of these issues. I think the most important thing we should all do, is to live our lives with as much love and as little hate as "humanly" possible.

[immoderate]

22. These are good arguments against the death penalty.

Governments are made of men (and of course, women) and men are fallible. why should we assume the government won't screw this up like anything else.

I don't know if I would say you can't kill under any circumstances. Self defense is the most obvious. And a bunch of cells that has yet to achieve any awareness can be well into the gray area. I think the living get preference over the almost living.

The golden rule seems to cover most situations about how to live.

--IMM

[blueblitzkrieg]

20. Hear, hear, Kentuck!

:)