Is it realistic to think this election can be overturned?

[wurzel]

I was very bitter against Kerry when he so quickly conceded. But at the same time my head was telling me that if Kerry wanted to contest this election his going about it by quietly using lawyers is the best way to go. I admired Gore for publicly holding out for over a month. But my head tells me that his open resistance only allowed the Republicans and the media to turn the Florida recount into a circus.

The thread on the Home Page about the 170 lawyers in Ohio has again raised my hopes. Is it a false hope?

[Walt Starr]

1. I refuse to let my hopes be raised

It's happened too often over the past four years. My hopes have been raised and then dashed just oo many times.

I'll not believe it until it happens. Plain and simple.

[wurzel]

4. Well, at least I am not alone. Thanks.

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. I don't know.

I've since buried my head in the sand and am refusing to think about it. I don't dare hope, my spirit can't take another crushing so soon.

[Karenca]

3. 1700 lawyers

in ohio, pretty sure

[wurzel]

7. The post said 17,000 lawyers but I assumed that was a misprint.

Even 1700 would be incredible.

[freedom_to_read]

5. In a word: Nope

This election will not be overturned, even if there is fraud. Sorry. Wish it weren't so. But it is.

[StopThief]

6. No and yes. . .

It is not realistic to think that it will be overturned. It is a false hope.

[wurzel]

10. But do you think the effort still worthwhile?

[StopThief]

29. As long as it is understood to be what it is. . . .

A study of election problems to identify changes that need to be made for future elections.

It's simply cruel to give people false hope.

[cabbage08]

33. The effort is worthwhile

But I don't think we can make up the required votes to make a difference.

[greenohio]

8. Heres the problem.

If there was fraud, we can prove it, get the court to agree, and correct the election we're in great shape.

If we cry fraud and then can't change the election, we have made ourselves look like idiots.

[wurzel]

11. Which Court to agree. An Ohio State Court? Or Supreme Court?

[greenohio]

16. I guess supreme.

Even if OH court agrees, you know the repukes will appeal.

[cabbage08]

34. what would be the relief ?

the obvious is Senator Kerry becomes President-elect Kerry. But Kerry conceded, can he take it back and call for a mulligan?

[greenohio]

39. Gore did.

Right now I don't see enough energy or hope on how to do this. I think we should work toward getting rid of BBV regardless.

[cabbage08]

41. But that was not a full concession speech n/t

[greenohio]

43. For the next hour everyone said...that he conceded too early.

Whether or not it was "full" is moot. The fact of the matter is, the world thought he had.

[cabbage08]

44. you are correct, Time will tell

[dpibel]

50. Do I have this right?

Fraud is cool, so long as it doesn't change the outcome?

So you think that, fraud being proven, everyone would just say, "No problemo!"?

You could be right, considering the general state of stupefaction, but if you are, we might as well just toss it in.

[bearfan454]

9. Yes

I believe it can.

[Blue_Roses]

12. No, it won't be overturned

but there has never been a President with a second term who escaped without scandal rivoting their administration...

[dpibel]

49. Ummmmm

Eisenhower? FDR? Don't recall their 2d term scandals.

[Warpy]

13. I don't think he'll overturn it, not even if it's proven he won

by a huge majority. Our lying mass media are in lockdown mode about the recount story (that much was leaked) and most people out there in the real world have no clue it's going on.

What he can do is taint this election so badly at all levels that the junta will have a whole lot MORE trouble over the next four years. We already see them so terrified of the American people that they require loyalty oaths of people at campaign stops (where a reasonable and sane campaigner would be trying to reach a broad audience, not a narrow one) and pissing off foreign governments with their insanely paranoid security requirements. They're typical of dictators, squeezing themselves into tighter and tighter corners while purging the party of anyone suspected of being disloyal to them and loyal to the country.

Knowing what a huge majority they've cheated out of their voting rights will only hasten this process. The right is great at seizing power, but they always destroy themselves. However, once they've seized power to the extent the Texas Mafia has, they are impossible to oust until they do destroy themselves, if only for the massive corruption at all levels that got them there.

[wurzel]

14. You mean our only hope is to make 2004 look as much like 2000 as possible?

And even take it to the Supreme Court again?

[fugue]

22. Gee, 2000 was clearly tainted . . .

and it didn't do us a damn bit of good. Quite the reverse.

Even if we can prove that Kerry won by a landslide, the Bush junta will never give up power. The Republicans will own our government until Europe bombs the hell out of us like we did them in WWII.

I only hope they've got a Marshall Plan, and they don't give a district to Russia.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. no, not realistic

[chriscol]

17. Can the Red Sox overcome the curse?

It's a long shot. Very long. But...isn't it fun to watch the game and cheer?

[newyawker99]

46. Hi chriscol!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[DencoDeeger]

18. no...

not a chance.

[newyawker99]

47. Hi DencoDeeger!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Kazak]

19. Is it realistic to think that Ohio can be overturned?

If so, then yes.

But, I'm not so sure it is realistic...

[SoCalDem]

20. If the media had jumped on it right away, and had run story after story

about the fishy numbers..and reminded people that EXIT polls are the best way to detect fraud, .....maybe..

Absent that, no way in hell..

All that will develop now, is that ANY legal challenges will just be reported as "SoreLoserman, Part Deux"..

The media "moved ahead" on 11/3..nothin' to see here folks...move along.. Yay..Bush won !!!


I "knew" it when I saw _*²'s numbers keep increasing, and all those "blue states" just sat there GREEN, and unassigned.. What that did to the public perception was to show that Kerry was ALWAYS behind..People went to bed "knowing" that _*² was winning..

Have we seen anyone but Olbermann even cover this without the "ha-ha..joke joke" slant??

Instead of the media digging in and analyzing that "mandate" for the phony thing it is, they just said.. WOWEEEE look at that mandate..:puke:

It's over, and we who will never believe it are marginalized as kooks.

[nostamj]

21. read the current BLOGGERMAN (Keith Olberman)

for a good analysis of the possibility of an overturn.

BLOGGERMAN

[wurzel]

23. Hey! Thanks. That's great.

[petepillow]

24. realistic like one of us winning the lottery. BIG FAT ODDS AGAINST

but yet still possible... barely possible...

Go ahead, call me an optimist! :shrug:

[Snivi Yllom]

25. * has gained 2269 votes

Current % of provisionals certified (of counties reported):
75%

Current "additional" vote count:
Bush +7,905
Kerry +5,636

http://www.ohvotesuppression.blogspot.com/


Cuyahoga Co:

"So far, about two-thirds of those votes have been deemed legitimate, but those numbers could change." (Plain Dealer)


"Cuyahoga County, where Cleveland is located, has processed 40 percent, or 9,719 votes, of its 24,788 provisional ballots and rejected a third, according to a board tally. Most are being rejected because the voters were not registered." (AP)

[wurzel]

32. Few things hurt more than a fact.

But if Bush won. He won. I would rather know Bush won than believe he didn't.

[Snivi Yllom]

37. I agree its better to have the total confirmed

but then I don't want to hear any mroe BS about fraud or that Kerry really won. No crutches or excuses ay more.

[m berst]

26. no

Freedom is never realistic. It is idealistic. It is always a long shot. The struggle never ends. The stance of freedom fighters should not be swayed by what is or what isn't realistic. The hope that freedom prevails should not be dependent on the outcome of one skirmish.

[Atlant]

27. Not without a lot of guns. (NT)

[murray hill farm]

30. So, true..and probably not even then!

The 2000 election was fixed, the 2004 election was fixed...and the power just grows...the 2008 election will be fixed too..this particular experiment in democracy has failed...the thing to do now is just try to save yourselves one by one to survive in the coming years....and please let me know if and when the revolution begins...i do want to support it.

[leftofthedial]

28. only if you actually believe it was an election

Since the coup, there are no real elections, just a sham--a facade of "democracy"

[masaka___]

31. Don't give up so easily. Now is the time to be brave.

Hey everybody. There is no doubt in my mind that electoral fraud happened, and that belief gives me the energy to keep fighting. The rest of the world is counting on those of us with integrity to fight the good fight, so we should not let them down.

Look at the Ukranians. Many of them fell victim to a rigged election, but they're not giving up. No, THEY'RE MARCHING. THEY'RE FIGHTING.

Let their actions be an example to us here.

Now is the time to be brave.

[Hubert Flottz]

35. I couldn't agree more!

"Now is the time to be brave."

I don't think this is a done deal yet!

[autorank]

36. No, but keep trying. Realism is not 'realistic' some times.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[Laelth]

38. It becomes less and less likely every day.

I must agree with SoCalDem that we needed the media to continually question the validity of the results in order to have a good chance of proving our case. It's still possible to force the electoral college to do the right thing, but we need a high-level insider to fess up, and it doesn't look like we can get that before either Dec. 10 or Jan 20.

Sigh ...

-Laelth

[Iris]

40. Technically, the election cannot be overturned at this point b/c

it's not official until the electoral college meets and casts its votes.

And, also, doesn't it take up to 2 months in some states and counties to "certify" the election?

[cabbage08]

42. I did not think of that aspect, there is still a chance

[Cuban_Liberal]

45. No, it's not realistic.

Sorry, but Bush will be the next POTUS.

[amazona]

48. I don't think it is realistic

The best we can hope for is prosecution for any crimes uncovered. We did not see a President McGovern when it became clear that Nixon had cheated and authorized the burglary of the Democratic Party HQ back in the day. Indeed, Nixon was able to choose his own successor. We need the highest quality of evidence, and we need aggressive prosecutors, but the best likely case in my humble opinion is that Bush/Cheney will allow themselves to be removed from office only if they can hand pick the successor. It is still worth doing, because we need the acknowledgement of wrong-doing to be apparent to everyone. But I don't think it is realistic to believe there will ever be a President Kerry.

I would hope the Democrats are aggressively if quietly exploring the crimes committed in all areas, not just in the area of vote fraud.