The Red State vs. Blue State Crap Needs to Stop Now

[autorank]

I'm about as pissed off as anybody about * winning. The Red-Blue crap is largely useless; especially talks about a boycott! Here is why:

(1) We need the Red states in 2006 and 2008. What a perfect softball for Rove to hit in those states -- see what these elitists really think of you.

(2) We don't campaign in the Red states, advertise much, or pay much attention to them. How the F are they going to get the message about our commitment to their issues? I wondered why we didn't do massive local radio advertising; great medium and lots of people listen while they drive all over the place.

(3) California elected Reagan twice and Deukmejian (R) twice. What a great move that would have been back then; boycott California. Give me a break.

(4) Are you comfortable adopting the same strategy that Nixon used to screw us; except this time we're screwing ourselves. Nixon's Southern strategy was to pit middle and lower class whites against blacks on the race issue, thus getting the white vote while not representing their interests. We're not screwing ourselves. Pit Red and Blue states against each other on location, religion, etc. when the real issues pertain to war, economic justice, racial-ethnic justice.

(5) I'm in very Blue part of a Red state, Northern Virginia. We have a Democratic Governor. I don't even think about Red-Blue (raided in CA, lived in NYC before here). Guess what we produce that you will boycott -- the f'ing internet. Telenet was the first public data network (Reston, VA); MCI set up the internet backbone (Arlington, VA); UUNET was the backbone integrator (Fairfax, VA). Go right ahead and boycott VA but be sure to use one of the other "internets."

Venting time is over. Lets be both tactically and strategically smart. If you want to see what's up, look at Montana state-wide elections, look at Colorado, look at Virginia's governor and potential in 2008.

I'm with Obama:

There are no Red states or Blue states, just United States

You might recall these words from Obama's Keynote address at the DNC:

"Yet even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America there's the United States of America. There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States.

[MrUnderhill]

1. Only a Blue stater would say that. lol

You are, of course, right.

I love Obama.

[DencoDeeger]

2. I couldn't agree more.

Well said.

The name of the game is to persuade the red states over to the blue side.

I'm doing my part here in Colorado and we've made it quite a nice shade of 'purple' and hoping to go full blue next time around.

The blue staters should be helping and supporting our efforts. Not sniping at us and talking about boycotts and what not.

[UNIXcock]

46. I wholeheartedly agree as well. it is counterproductive to ...

... even fathom a red State is a pure bush state, that surely isn't the case in Arizona. I for one resent the idea you would purposely hurt us democrats that supported Kerry in 2004.

... shame on you

[rockymountaindem]

78. Hey pal... I'm the only guy who uses the Colorado flag avatar 'round here.

Nice to see ya!

[AlinPA]

3. I'm OK with what you are saying; the other day someone said we should

form the URSA and UBSA (United Red States of America, etc) and my wife and I asked almost at the same time "what about the people in those southern and western (mostly)states who did NOT vote for Bush**"? Further since the percentage of people who vote is max 60%, who's to say "red" is a majority?

[autorank]

5. I agree. The 40% non voters should be our people.

How about this as a GOTV project: every solid Democrat finds a friend, relative, etc. who didn't vote and make them your project to register and vote. I've got one myself and she'll be voting in 2006 and 2008. Talk about grass roots organizing. We all know at least one person like that.

[southlandshari]

37. Good points!

n/t

[ooglymoogly]

4. e-r-w-r-o-i-g-h-t

lets just keep pumpin those deibold machines and one day the'l come up cherries. cause you know they are real honest.

[autorank]

6. Agree on voting machine. People EVERYWHERE want honest voting.

Well, people other than Republican election officials but they're a minority. Here is what usually appears at the bottom of every message I post:

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

Welcome to DU!

[petepillow]

7. I agree! The only political boycotting should be companies that directly

hurt America. Those that capitalize off of the brainwashing feed-the-rich mentality of the current Admin, at major expense to small-town America. For example: WAL-MART. Well, actually that's the best example. Buy all the American goods you can, be em from Alabama, Oklahoma, California, or New York. But buy em from someone that doesn't rape American towns and put real Americans out of business simply to add the the collective Tens of Billions in the pockets of some Billionaire Heirs.

Protect America, don't segregate it based on current geographical politics. Convert the perceived differences between "Red States" and "Blue States" with effective communication of common goals.

[southlandshari]

8. Just got chills

from your message, especially the reminder of Obama's powerful words at the Democratic Convention. I remember tears springing to my eyes during that part of his speech - this may be the first time I've felt moved in similar fashion since then.

There was quite the lovefest for Obama here at DU that evening. If fellow DUers won't listen to those of us who have been pleading for some sanity and open-mindedness in post-election discussions, maybe they'll listen to Obama. I still have hope!!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. The problem is, 'Red Sate' is quick and easy to say, and everyone

knows what you mean, even if it isn't accurate. That's why it is a REPUBLICAN distiction, and definition.

We need to change the conversation, using our own words.

I, for one, will only use Red State of Mind, or RSOM, when talking about the divisions in this country.

It's more accurate than a geographical designation, and it is NOT a part of the repuke talking points.

51% is not a mandate.

*'s 51% is not even real.

[autorank]

10. Like that. RSOM, sounds like a neurological disorder!

I decided to post this message after reading about a boycott of Red States. Geebus H., this is getting strange.

[southlandshari]

79. I like it!

I missed this when I read the thread earlier. RSOM works for me!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Strategy? How about an opposition party that actually oppposes?

The Dems in the last two elections have offered little but the "We're not really liberals but we're not as bad as the Republicans" rhetoric that panders to the right but does nothing to differentiate between the parties.

The truth is, that there are plenty of "red state" issues that the Democrats could run on. Health Care. Decent wages. The environment. Women's rights. Affirmative Action. Peace. All of the "leftist" issues that they're shying away from, downplaying, and avoiding.

The Red-staters come on here and say, "We're not all rednecks". Fine, I believe it. And, I believe that a lot of red-staters would respond to something other than the watery pablum offered by the DLC and the idiotic pandering of "dressing" southern and killing a goose. I'm not a red stater, but if I was, I'd be downright insulted by candidates who think voters can be bamboozled by soft pedaling the issues.

It's as facile as "compassionate conservatism".

[autorank]

15. I completely agree.

I'm in VA in the middle of 1,000,000 workaholic, network/professional/ service industry people. The only goose I want to see is at a restaurant. We vote for Democrats. The rural parts of the state responded very well to Gov. Warner's economic opportunity pitch when he got elected in 2001. He deliberately cultivated the "Southside" Virginia voters -- rural, south and southwestern Virginia. They've been screwed by corporate relocations, etc. Warner worked them hard just like Obama worked Southern Illinois hard and guess what? They gave him their votes.

I'd like to see Clark start working the states we lost soon and take a few populist types with him. He has no long time NAFTA, WTO baggage and he doesn't need credibility as a shit-kicker. Turn him loose.

[southlandshari]

12. kick

for the reminder of what a true statesman had to say about the artificial division of Americans into "red states" and "blue states."

[BiggJawn]

13. I'm with you.

Karl Rove smiles when Agent Mike sends him memos about all the "fuck you Red Stater" threads here.

[Walt Starr]

14. Sorry, I will try to buy as little as possible from Red states

Fuck 'em.

My wife and I generally vacation in Florida or on a cruise out of Florida.

Fuck 'em.

We've been loyal Saturn buyers.

Fuck 'em, no more cars from Tennessee, only cars from Detroit.

See how easy it is?

[southlandshari]

16. Wow.

You and Obama are both from Illinois. Same state, yet such different ideologies and ideas. Vastly different approaches to the same issue of lumping millions of individuals together in artificial categories of "red" and "blue". You say fuck all of us in red states. He says we all have common ground upon which to build.

Very interesting. I guess it really is true after all that cultural, religious, socioeconomic and political differences CAN exist among residents of the same state.

Unless, of course, that state is red.

Right?

[Walt Starr]

29. I am free to spend my money as I see fit

and I'll spend as little on red state products and as much on blue state products as poissible until after the next election cycle.

That's my right and I intend to exercise it.

[southlandshari]

34. More power to you

Didn't question your right to spend your money when, where and how you see fit.

If you change your mind, and spend some in this red state, we'll continue to welcome you with great hospitality and grace. Maybe some of it will rub off.

[autorank]

17. Give me a break.

You're saying "fuck em" to a boat load of DU users. I simply don't understand this type of emotionality. And Walt, be sure to send these messages on one of those 'internets' that doesn't originate or get managed in Northern Virginia. I say that as an ironic contradiction. Obviously, you should stay on the internet but please stop telling me and all other red staters to get fucked. It's a bit over the top and not productive in gaining allies for future elections.

[Walt Starr]

31. I call 'em as I see 'em

If I have a choice between two products, one from a red state and one from a blue state, I'm picking the blue state product every time.

[__Inanna__]

64. I will repeat myself (as in another post)

I live in a RED state and voted for KERRY. I have at least 12 family members that live in a BLUE state and they voted for BUSH. This state went RED, and that state went BLUE.

Where is the value in this red vs. blue mentality? How about we call it for what it is, B-voters vs. K-voters (or some variation). As those who have been blessed with higher IQs, in general, can't we find a more meaningful way to think about this whole thing?

[Walt Starr]

92. It's my choice and I choose to buy blue

Sorry if it offends you, but that's how I will be shopping during the next four years.

And when I can buy a foreign product instead, I'll probably buy the non-American product over the American product.

Money means everything in this world and I will choose to spend mione as I deem necessary.

[buckettgirl]

88. Just so long

as you realize that when you buy your vehicle from Detroit, you buying *'s policies as well. They don't want to make fuel efficient vehicles, that would cost too much in research and development. So *'s environmental policies suit the automakers well.

OH, don't buy bread either! I'm from Kansas, and the wheat crop was exceptionally good this year...you never know where the grain in your bread actually came from! So better to be safe than sorry, huh!

That is ludicrous! Instead of perpetuating a divide, you should embrace us democrats in red states, you should help us to change the ignorant ways of the rest of the state. We're on your side! DUH! You should be against *'s policies and be for supporting the democratic party, even those that live in red states.
Not to mention, do you really think that the ignorant bushies in the red states will give damn if you boycott them? No, they don't understand what is really going on, so why would they understand this??
All I know is that you don't fix America by hurting Americans, red or blue.

[CBGLuthier]

18. And if your state should happen to go red

Then I guess you will just have to go fuck yourself.

[Walt Starr]

32. I doubt mine will turn red very soon

Illinois is true blue right now.

[CBGLuthier]

47. well I just looked at the count

2.8 million for Kerry 55%
2.3 million for Bush 45%


I agree that Illinois is a very blue state.

But you are only a little more blue than my state (Oklahoma) is red.

If 300,000 people change to red instead of blue you will be RED.

IT Could Happen To You. :-)


Which is why all this red state blue state is such bullshit.

We are a divided land across the entire nation. I never thought Ohio would have gone red. Hell, even if there wa fraud it was awfully damn close.


My vote count figures may be out of date and slightly inaccurate but anyway you look at it, NO state is that damn blue that they should be smug about it.

[southlandshari]

48. Bravo, notmypresident!

Good points all around. Which means you'll probably get no response. But I for one appreciate your objective look at the relevant stats here.

[autorank]

19. Buying guide -- why restrict it to buying. How about giving?

Be sure to give to the Richard Mellon Scaife foundations in Blue State Pennsylvania. That's Scaife of "The Hunting of the President."

Be sure not to give to The Southern Poverty Law Center in Red State Mississippi. That's Morris Dees who tracks right wing Nazi's and takes them to court, promotes racial and economic justice, and risks his life every day to do it.

Decisions based on address, superiority on the basis of address, makes no sense at all!

[southlandshari]

20. SPLC is in Alabama

Nothing against Mississippi - it's just that we Alabamians obviously need all the credit we can get for our successful endeavors towards peace and justice! Especially when the media loves to focus all its Alabama airtime on the Roy Moores of the world.

=)

On edit:

Autorank, no offense intended with the correction on the SPLC - you and I are right on the same page on this issue. Thanks for the thread!!

For those interested:

http://www.splcenter.org/

[autorank]

27. southlandshari, no offense taken! I should have googled it and

included the link. I love these guys and contribute too. "Teaching Tolerance" --- mandatory course for all kids.

[Walt Starr]

33. Actually, I'm not giving anything any more

I donate to DU. I'll donate to the local no-kill animal shelter, and that's about the end of my donations now.

[DoNotRefill]

38. what's your goal?

there are two possibilities.

1.) Announce a general boycott on Red states, and refuse to buy from them. Net result: They move further to the right, as a not-so-subtle "fuck you back". European leaders supporting Kerry didn't help, it hurt.

2.) Don't announce the boycott. In which case, nobody even notices it.

So what's the objective?

[BiggJawn]

70. Do you like popcorn?

I hope not, because it all comes from my lil' ol' RED (actually slightly PURPLE) Indiana...

The 20% of us Hoosiers who voted for Kerry wish for you to take your money and stick it up your ass.

See how easy it is?

[southlandshari]

71. I'll take mine with extra butter!

Thanks for the much needed laugh, BiggJawn!

I don't want to fight with Walt Starr or any other DUers. But I'm glad I'm not the only one willing to give as good (or nasty) as we red staters get on some threads!

[BiggJawn]

83. And a big thumbs-up to YOU!

I like the "Kettle Corn" flavour. Cousin Willie's brand. Packaged over in Ramsey.

Cousin Orville's is just up the road from me.

This "R v. B" crap HAS to be countered. Perhaps our friends might see just how silly and devisive they're looking...

[DrGonzoLives]

86. Now, now

Perhaps our friends might see just how silly and devisive they're looking...

You've been here as long as I, Jawn, you know better than that.

I agree, now, let them boycott. Hope they can find farmland to grow enough food to feed themselves up in New York.

[BiggJawn]

90. I know, Gonz....

Hope Springs Eternal, eh?

I told somebody once "I hope you can grow enough food in your piss-soaked back alleys to sustain yourselves in the big, Blue city..."

Wish I'd kept that link to the "Purple Map"...

[President Jesus]

21. Fine. But what are red-state Dems doing to win their states?

I think the bulk of my frustration is that all I seem to hear is how they don't get enough money, and charges of voter fraud, instead of addressing the real issue: the GOP is significantly better organized in those states. I have yet to hear how red-state Dems plan to organize and actually start winning their states again.

2004 saw a massive influx of blue-staters into the reds to help them try to organize. While there were clearly some successes on our side, the GOP simply did better at recognizing who was on their side, leveraging existing 'native' organizations, and getting their people to the polls. In fact, theimportation of blue-staters for canvassing arguably did as much damage as good, especially to those who think a presidential election is the appropriate vehicle for waging culture war.

[Bridget Burke]

22. What are you doing in your state to ensure it stays blue?

And just what state is yours?

[President Jesus]

23. New York - getting friends and family to the polls

...and not whining about it.

[southlandshari]

36. Who's whining?

All I hear are the voices of those who aren't going to take being insulted and marginalized quietly!

[southlandshari]

24. Massive influx?

Where the hell was this massive influx of blue-staters into red states to help us organize?

Au contraire, my friend. I saw ZERO help from other states as I worked my red state ass off organizing, registering voters, and campaigning -- all for a candidate who didn't bother to show up here at all.

And all the while, I got really encouraging emails from the Kerry campaign and moveon.org telling me how I should spend my time calling or visiting voters in other ("swing") states.

NO ONE except red state Democrats gave a flying fuck for our states' votes BEFORE this election, so forgive me if I get a little testy now that so many want to berate and condemn us after the fact.

[autorank]

25. Same her e in VA. Dems went to PA on election day!

Which was great and I am grateful but WTF? How about our state. We had funky machines and the rest but lots of people were so generous in swing states we lost some help. Not bitching about it just supporting, elaborating on your point. We will win in VA in 2008!!!!!

[southlandshari]

41. The silence is deafening

There have been several snippy posts late in this thread complaining about red states, endorsing a boycott of those states, or criticizing our political efforts in those states - with little or no follow up to our responses to those posts.

We must be making sense!

[autorank]

63. You are a font of wisdom, southlandsheri!

I was interested that the Republican Governor of AL ran that tax initiative saying the state was screwed without it. When will that hit the fan. That's about the time the DEMS will look real good to all factions of that state. AL can be sure that * will do nothing for them.

[southlandshari]

66. That was an interesting exception to the rule around here!

Republican governor Bob Riley found the strongest support for Amendment One (tax and accountability package proposed last year) among...Democrats and other progressives.

The same folks who helped give Bush another Alabama win in this election worked their tails off AGAINST our Republican governor. And you are right, we are already feeling the effects of the defeat of Amendment One here, and it is only going to get worse. And I HOPE you are right that it will wake more people up to the fact the Democrats got it right (along with one brave Republican who is unlikely to ever be elected to public office here again)!

More on this:

August 16, 2003 - WSFA, Montgomery, AL

Democrats Endorse Riley Plan

The Alabama Democratic Party's executive committee board has endorsed Republican Governor Riley's tax and accountability package. Democratic Party chairman Redding Pitt said the committee voted Friday to endorse the plan.

The Democratic resolution says Amendment One represents a substantial reform in the way that taxes are levied and collected in Alabama. Voters go to the polls on September Ninth to vote on Riley's tax plan, which will be called Amendment One on the ballot.

http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=1405482&nav=0RdEHVbz

[Vote4Kerry]

26. Wonder how many blue states turned red because of Diebold

The problem is that with all of the fraud, we really don't know which states are red or blue.

[autorank]

30. Correct: So which Red states can we buy from (due to fraud)?

The Red-Blue argument descends into absurdity as soon as it is examined. You make a compelling point. Like your name.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[bloom]

28. According to another thread - people are losing their libraries

so people won't even be able to worry about them being poked around in.

"we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States" ( and it is in a Blue State - NY, Buffalo)


I think we should all be optimistic that if Bush* continues in office - by the time 4 years are up our country will be so screwed up that Republicans will be lucky to get 10% of the vote - and we'll all be in blue states.


(OK - maybe that isn't exactly optimistic :) ) :crazy:

[Sleepless In NY]

42. Well, I'm confused and need some opinions from you all

Of course we are all angry that bush "won" again. But what are we suppose to do? Sit back and take it?

Ever since the Civil Rights Act, democrats have been steadily losing the south. As Howard Dean once put it, "What have the republicans done for the south"? They cry poverty, but they continue to vote republican, no matter what we say or do.

Look I don't mind appealing to people, if I'm appealing to the good in them, but that's not what's being asked of us. It was no accident that gay marriage/civil unions were up for a vote, the same day as the presidential election. And in all 11 of these states, it was banned. Is this what I want to appeal to?

And please don't tell me we haven't talked about health care & insurance, stem cell research, jobs, women's rights, and everything else, because we have, ad nauseum. They don't want to hear it, just terror, terror and more terror, from states that have the least to worry about it.

They want to hear about morals...yet they are not "offended" by Rush or O'Reilly or Pro Choice politicans in their own party. They support a grounded AWOL inarticulate drunk bush, and his equally DWI, 5 times deferred Cheney who runs around telling people to "F**" themselves. They mock veterans like Kerry & Clelland and wear purple heart band aids. These states lead in divorces, teen pregnancies, and veneral diseases. Yet Blue states aren't moral. I give up.

All I heard was how Florida was so angry about the 2000 elections. So angry, they reelected Jeb. So angry they reelected Dopeya. Now they want me to buy Florida Orange juice to help hurricane victims. Please, go ask Jeb & his brother.

What am I some kind of sap? We "deserved" 9/11 because we are gay loving, feminist loving, abortion loving commie pinkos. They get more in Homeland Security then we do. Aid wasn't rushed to NY after 9/11, many businesses went under, waiting. They hate us, until it comes to our money. Well I'm sick and tired of it.

So I'm asking, what is the solution to this problem? And what is so wrong with opening a dialogue about ways we can fight back? I would think Blue voters in Red states would feel the same, since what ever you've been doing there isn't working. Where are the protests in Ohio? Are people really angry there or is it, we just like to think they are?

I dont think appealing to the worst in people is going to help us in the next election either. I don't want to hate gays, deny women choice, and live in fear of "terrorists". Makes us look like a bunch of bigoted cowards.

I wish the leadership in this party would get up and call them on their phoney morality instead of trying to "appeal" to them. Point out their weaknesses. Point out who's paying the bills.

I'm angry, I don't want to be but I am. We have been much maligned here too.

So help me understand, please, because I'm lost. Thanks.

[otohara]

35. I Can Not Do Florida

sorry...there is one state where not one red cent of my money will be spent.

[DuaneBidoux]

39. You may not want to declare war on them...but they already have on

you. Just another example of not living up to the reality that a state like Oklahoma is virtually another country from civilized states such as Massachussetts and the people in Oklahoma DON'T LIKE YOU VERY MUCH.

Trust me: I'm from Texas-a blue body in a blood red state. They intend to crush you.

[southlandshari]

40. Oh for f#$%'s sake.

"The people" in Oklahoma do not think, vote or act with one unilateral brain.

Just f#$^ing stop with the generalizations. STATES are neither racist nor civilized, liberal nor conservative. People are. No one is arguing that states like Oklahoma, Texas or Alabama are really liberal hot spots and that the election results are a complete anomoly. Yes, we've got more right-wing nutjobs to contend with than many other states, but that's no reason to consider entire states and populations lost causes.

You say "they intend to crush you" at the end of your post. Who is "they"? Every man, woman and child in Texas? Obviously not, since you are a voice of sanity among the nutjobs there. Are you the sole voice, or are there others like you?

Just target the enemy accurately. Painting with a broad brush is sloppy and simplistic. And we don't need any sloppiness or simplistic thinking if we are going to wrest power away from this malicious and manipulative group of facists.

[DuaneBidoux]

43. "They" targeted you first. They are the 70% of the Christofascists who

in these parts of the country want to bring back the Christian equivalent of an Islamic Theocracy. There is no compromise, there is no mercy, there is no discourse. You are with them, or you are against them. They will steal, lie or thieve in the name of God and country, and your attitude is exactly why THEY have been winning. You think they are fuzzy and cute: the result is that Dem's play nice and by the rules and election after election get the shit beat out of them.

And sorry, I do believe states like Alabama are lost causes. Most of the people who are not of color would love to go back in time 100 years with absolutely everything that would entail.

I've watched your state politics, your compassionate conservatism that borders on thuggery. I've chatted with strangers in bars across Alabama, "playing the good old boy" and watching an ugliness uglier than ugly emerge from these people. And when you say "they" to these people, they know exactly who you mean. They have no doubts-they is anyone different than them. You do not believe the world is black and white, I do not believe the world is black and white, but I am no longer certain we can beat them unless we see the world they do and understand it from the way they see it.

[southlandshari]

44. I agree with everything you've said

About the idiocy of far too many people in my state, the politics of my state, and the long road Alabamians still have ahead to eradicate good-old-boyism for good.

All I'm asking is for you to call a spade a spade, but spare those who don't fit the label. Say "rednecks", say "good old boys", say "the powers that be in the South", say "religious fanatics", say "rightwing nutjobs" - say whatever, as long as you stop insinuating that ALL residents of any state think or act in one way or another.

I am neck deep in the fight against the assholes you are speaking of, and I don't think I'm being overly sensitive by asking not to be lumped in with them by fellow DUers!

[DuaneBidoux]

49. My point is simply that there is no compromise..

You may be willing to live with these folks but they will never accept you. What this means is that blocks must be formed and that those blocks must fall. I honestly do not believe there is an America anymore. There are two blocks and the one block, the red, is trying to force every "moral," economic, fascist, regressive cultural artifact of the last century down the throats of the entire country.

Can there even be a United States of America when one group is so determined to cram its vision of the future down everyone's throats. I just no longer believe so, unless, the "red staters" can be made to appreciate that if it weren't for the largess of the blue states, for the charity, industry, wealth, education, talent, tolerance, and a dozen other great qualities of the "Blue States" most of these states would be non-viable dust fields. I'm simply saying: give them what they want: cut their funding, make them pay their own way. If they vote in ways that hurt the country then the states must be made to share the pain at the level to which they doled it out.

You may have seen the map showing slave and free states, and the map showing Kerry/Bush. After 140 years, a map that looked identical. If 70 years of FDR progress can't convert these people then friend I've got bad news for you. It's too late-it's time to get the next civil war over with and make sure we win, or it's time to become two countries once and for all, and then arm ourselves well, because we'll need the weapons with such a neighbor.

[southlandshari]

50. One more try

I STILL agree with a good deal of what you are saying, though I do not agree that red states would be utterly lost without the intelligence, leadership and largesse of blue state residents (yet another generalization that can be just as easily rebutted as defended with statistics and anecdotes).

I am only asking for one thing here. Give up the approach of stating, espousing, inferring or otherwise indicating through action or deed that there are no liberals, progressives and/or Democrats living and fighting in red states (even those in the Deep South). There are millions of us. And you in the blue states need us as much as we need you.

Like it or not, the uncomfortable truth is that there are also millions of intolerant, small-minded bigots living in blue states across the country.

I'm not saying Alabama is as progressive as Massachusetts. That would be silly. But no sillier than using sophomoric stereotypes to describe huge groups of Americans who share only geography in common in many cases.

[NuttyFluffers]

54. then don't ignore red state/blue state theme, adapt it.

blue-person red-state. not hard is it? now we acknowledge you as a friend living in "enemy territory" just as red-person blue-state people believe they are living in "enemy territory." we didn't call for this fight, we don't want it, many of us. but tough, it's ours. so what are you going ot do about it?

i think watering ourselves down into 'charming them over' is a joke. the amount of hate that's been whipped up in many of these states have created a red-person red-state frenzy that is unquenchable. period. deal with it.

that just means blue-person red-states people are in greater danger. want our blue-person blue-state support? you got it, we want to patronize your businesses, we want to give you safe houses if necessary, we want to support your recounts and local electorates, etc. but don't ask us to dilute ourselves into a sad purple blob to appeal to everyone that lives with you. no.

there are those rp-rs people who want us to just die, i'm not going to bargain with them anymore, there's no reasoning with that, and don't you dare ask me again to try. i'm done. i am done. no more, line drawn, there is no more reasoning with the clinically insane. you bp-rs people have my love and support, but don't ask me to capitulate anymore. i will not destroy myself for an insane man's fantasy -- so deal with it.

now, you want us to help you, who live in a difficult situation? or do you want us to turn a blind eye and help ALL of you, including those who want us dead? your turn to choose. i know where my morals stand and self-destruction in the face of evil (and don't kid yourself, there are these people who reek of evil) is not one of them. we extend our hands in mutual support, but don't kid yourself, this is the beginning of a horrible time, potentially civil war.

[southlandshari]

56. sighhhhhh

I don't want you or anyone else to do any of the following:

- "water ourselves down into 'charming them over'"

- "dilute ourselves into a sad purple blob to appeal to everyone that lives with you"

- "bargain with them anymore"

- "reason with the clinically insane"

- "capitulate anymore"

- "destroy myself for an insane man's fantasy"

- "turn a blind eye and help ALL of you, including those who want us dead?"

- "self-destruct in the face of evil"


I don't think I have ever, in any one of more than 700 posts on this board, advocated giving one inch to right-wing, religious zealots. Don't patronize me and tell me about the evil that these people are doing to this country. I see it every day. I live with it. I fight it up close and personal.

I'm not a moderate. I'm not a wimp. I am a very proud, Southern, liberal who has no trouble speaking uncomfortable truth to power. Been doing it a long time and don't need anyone to prop me up to keep doing it.

And because I'm not a pansy, I will also fight back when people here - out of understandable frustration OR out of insensitive bigotry - malign me and millions of others because we have more rotton neighbors than you do.

I am "dealing with it." I am "doing something about it." And I don't need a bit of help from you or any other blue state elitist. But it would be nice if you guys would at least refrain from fighting AGAINST us red state Democrats. Just stay the hell out of the way and quit proposing boycotts or plagues or breaks with entire states. It is stupid and counterproductive.

[NuttyFluffers]

61. hmm, don't need our help, well fine then.

remember, many of us offered help, and want to help. but i'm not going to play elitist games with you. want us out of the way, fine, i'll gladly ignore you if you like. think we are elitist and our support isn't good enough, fine, i'll gladly ignore you if you like. stop boycotts against amoral companies out to destroy our country? hell no.

are there some who are taking it too far and blanketing every state as evil, yes. but you'll find such thing in *every group.* sensible people realize this and deal with it by not bitching about it. bitching about it and then asking us to stop our last source of non-violent power in the face of wrong, and then dismissing our assistance is *DOWN-RIGHT INSULTING*.

so, *you* don't want our help. fine. take a bit of your own medicine and learn not to speak for every blue person in your state. don't speak for each of us blue-person blue-staters and think we are all mindless, unnuanced drones. in your complaint about being lumped together you in turn insult us as one group in the same breath. and we should take it in stride? i don't think so.

there's plenty of others who want to move this country forward and you are welcome to join us when your pride has lessened (or been stroked, whichever comes first).

[southlandshari]

62. So we agree, then!

I'm genuinely sorry we had to insult and counter-insult each other to get there, though.

I'm offering an olive branch, here. I know I'm one of the most vocal DUers when it comes to bitching about the generalizations of red states and blue states as unified entities. I know I came at your hard in my last post. I don't think I was without some provocation, and I also tried to be clear in speaking for me and no one else. I get frustrated when requests to get rid of the totalitarian "red state" and "blue state" references get turned around into "don't ask me to capitulate" responses.

As I tried to say in multiple posts before, I do understand where you are coming from, and agree with your stand on not watering down our party's progressive policies for anyone or any reason. I just think the state-based criticisms and proposals for actions against entire states and regions are misdirected.

I'm hoping we can now move forward now that we are both good and pissed and in agreement about ridding the world of Bush and his religious right minions (wherever they may live).

I honestly don't know why the red state generalizations get under my skin so badly. I'm a Christian, and have never felt maligned or offended by posts here that seem to upset others. It's not like I am trying to defend Alabama or the majority of voters, who did the wrong thing November 2, just as they did last September 9 (Amendment One vote) and on countless other occasions.

Maybe it is the writer in me. It has been nearly two decades since I got my journalism degree, and AP style rules are still embedded in my brain. Do not personify inanimate objects, for example. Who knows...

Anyway, don't think I'm wimpy here for trying to make peace. I'm still good and angry, but would rather not be angry with you or any of my fellow DUers when there are so many other more deserving targets out there!

[southlandshari]

72. Hoping for a response from you

to my attempt to stop the bickering and name-calling (we both are guilty of labeling here, and it obviously bothers us both when on the receiving end).

Can we channel this anger into something more productive?! =)

[NuttyFluffers]

73. honey, come here and give me a hug...

:hug:

i think we've all been on edge these past few weeks and the strain is showing. now is the hardest time to keep a nuanced and level-headed nature and we are gonna see a lot of hyperbole in the next few weeks. we all grieve in our own time and for our own lengths as well. expect to see more blanket statements, from all sides. it's gonna be hard but we're gonna have to let a few explosions go off and scream at each other a bit. meh, kinda like thanksgiving ;)

y'know, i have plenty of relatives in the south (kentucky, yes it really is the south ;) ), half my family is from there, and staunchly liberal. now we tease each other plenty, but i know perfectly well that they are just as smart and capable as my western family, naturally. in that respect, we are all humans and there is no red/blue between us. but we all got our bad neighbors, like you said.

what to do? stop rewarding bad neighbors. it's really as simple as that. be they individuals or businesses.

we're gonna need as much help from you as you are going to need from us. it's time for the 'friendly neighbor underground.' we are going to need your knowledge of your territory so that we can more pro-actively use our money. so come support us with the 'starve the beast' -- and go ahead and scream a little from time to time. if we all can learn what you did, offer the olive branch after a good ol' fashion flame, we can grieve and make it through this.

:hug: sorry for any hurtful words here, too.

[southlandshari]

75. Right back at you!

This is the response I was hoping for!

The people I respect and treasure most in life are as passionate as I am about truth and justice and making things right in the world. Which means that some clashes, even among friends, are inevitable. And not necessarily bad - only the best ideas survive vigorous dissent and debate!

Posts like your last one make it MUCH easier for folks like me to shrug off the other blanket statements and generalizations on this board. Heck, I'll be running on good feelings from your kind words for who knows how long!

And one last thing - after our little explosive exchange, I'm just glad you and I are on the same team. Woe be unto the poor soul that finds himself up against either one of us in a real debate!

=)

[autorank]

74. How about positive name calling!!!

I love Maryland, particularly Montgomery County.

People from New York City are some of the nicest people you will ever meet, not to mention the most intelligent (I lived there 10 years).

Massachusetts is probably one of the best states in the union for quality of life.

Chicago rocks, it's my favorite American city right now!

Anyone who supported Dean and is still disappointed is fine with me. Just shows you care and have an enduring sense of loyalty.

I'd rather have a DLC president than any f'ing Republican any day.

'southlandsheri' is not only my computer buddy, she's a loyal Democrat doing God's work in a future Democratic state.

Try it, it's easy.

Yours truly,

autorank
Proud to be a
Virginia Democrat

[southlandshari]

76. Awwww, shucks!

You're beautiful, autorank!

This has been a fabulous roller-coaster of a thread - thanks again for starting it and keeping it going. I look forward to fighting the good fight with you from here on out!

[autorank]

81. I'm there!

[DuaneBidoux]

55. Most of the big central red states WERE big empty fields

with no communications, no irrigation, no roads, before FDR.

[AlinPA]

45. Good point: your "STATES are neither racist nor civilized, liberal nor

conservative. People are"

[autorank]

59. Rumors of Theocracy Greatly Exaggerated.

Here is how it works. People in all states get fed up with Republican bull shit eventually.

Go here and see what a major Virginia (yes, Virginia) paper did with that Maklin creature. I don't know about Oklahoma but take a look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1014196#1014247

[bvar22]

51. I live in a Blue State, but

I recently made a horrifying discovery. I looked at a precinct map of Minnesota, and I was stunned to discover that the suburbs were RED!!!

I immediately decided to TAKE ACTION to protect the purity of my Blue Precinct! I am boycotting the suburbs!! I used to have friends that live in the burbs, but don't feel I can associate with them any longer.

I have started campaigns to belittle them, to ridicule them, to blame them. After all, they choose to live in a area that is nothing but ignorant bigots. Any REAL Democrats should live in a precinct that is BLUE! Inner City RULES. Suburbs are for IGNORANT BIGOTS ONLY. So for all you suburbanites and commuters...FUCK OFF! Why don't you just go and live with those Red STATES!

Now, I also noticed that there are some Red Streets inside my Blue Precinct!! So....fuck the RED STREETS!!!






I don't see any RED STATES. Do you?

[southlandshari]

53. LOL

Great post!

[dpt223]

52. Damn Right

Every state is purple. Most states were very close. None are pure blue or red. The Red/Blue bullshit is only a way to divide people and is the type of mentality that creates hate.

[autorank]

58. I've been trying to say that for paragraphs!!! Thank you!!!

[autorank]

57. Wow, I'm terrified to leave my home in No. VA. Might get hung.

People chasing me with pitch forks herding me into born-again congregations to face death or renounce my liberal ways. But wait a minute, I've been out for several hours and no one tried to run me off the road.

The map says 1/2 of it -- urban/near suburban -- suburban/rural. Duh! Most of the so-called Red State urban areas are as Blue as the state of Michigan.

The other 1/2 is below:

--No advertising in/for so-called red states for how many elections now, help me here, let's see at least two! All focus on 'battle ground' states. How hard is it to buy some serious radio time in red states... but NOOOO.

--Few organizing dollars in/for so-called red states.

--The f'ing candidate never shows up in so-called red states. Kerry was in VA for the primary but hardly showed again.

--Weak stands on populist economic issues. If we're the party of robo-globalism including NAFTA and WTO, we're screwed. How about a candidate that shows up and says "I'm here to kick some Republican ass and kick it good." If that were sincere, we'd be on our way.

Hello, Montana is a so-called Red State. The Democrats won the governorship and control the legislature or are damn close. If we can do it in Montana, we can do it in a lot of places.

[Smacker]

60. That damned map is the problem

As soon as I saw that map of blue and red states, with red so clearly in the middle and blue on the edges, with no exceptions, I knew we were screwed for many years to come.

Forget the statistics. People see a simple image, such as that one, and it's fixed in the national psyche because it's compelling and easy to absorb.

But the statistics are the problem,, or rather, the answer. If we had blue states voting 90+ percent for Kerry, and red states voting 90+ percent the other way, then we really would have blue and red states.

But when they are generally 45% to 55% one way or the other, most states are reasonably evenly divided.

But that's not how the map works. Each state is shown as winner takes all. Might be true for the Electoral College, but when did the electoral college represent the country?

[Cat Atomic]

65. Anyone who had the urge to put a photo on "sorryeverybody.com"

should understand how wrong-headed it is to blame "red states" as a whole.

It's a bit hypocritical to hope that Europe can distinguish between Americans and Bush, when you yourself make no effort to distinguish between "red staters" and Bushbots.

I do agree with you, autorank. It'd be a mistake to fall even harder for this divide-and-conquer bullshit.

[southlandshari]

68. I thought about that same analogy

and am glad you posted this. Thanks for the point!

[Truman01]

67. I hate to point out the obvious but

The entire south is full of red states, and 50 years ago they were ALL Blue. So unless the south has gone from intellectuals to idiots in 50 years, then we are doing something to drive them away. Don't you think?

[autorank]

69. Excellent question.

We didn't do it. Nixon and his crew did. Called The Southern Strategy. Get people to ignore the issues and their interests by pitting people of like interest against each other. In the case of the trickster, Nixon, he used race to turn working class and poor Southern whites against working class and poor Southern blacks.

So here we go again except we're inflicting the wound on ourselves. Let's turn people like interest against each other over a stupid issue like where you f'ing live. Unbelievable.

That's why this has to stop now. It is so illogical, the political equivalent to religious fundamentalists hatred of "the elites."

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[Truman01]

85. Thanks but I don't think that's it

I live in the South and have most of my life. Nixon did have a souther strategy but I don't believe most people in the south vote against democrats because of racial tensions. Here in GA we just lost the Governor's race, and the senate and the house. It wasn't about blacks. Repugs havn't been in control here for 135 years or more. I think that answer is just too easy when we try to pile our losses on the idea that whites are voting against blacks.

White southern democrats are very conservative socially with liberal views on economy. They are very patriotic. They are very polite and social.

They don't believe in gay rights, they don't believe in continued affirmative action, the are in favor of guns, and they don't like it when we do things like fly the american flag upside down. I'm sure I'll get flamed, but they really are turned off by radical liberalism. Its easy to imagine that it is racist bubba that is causing the problem.

They would reelect John F. Kennedy in a heart beat. Kennedy was a war hero, played around on his wife but was careful about it, was in FAVOR of civil rights, cut taxes, was strong on defense, and didn't mess around with gun rights.

I wonder aloud, would WE reelect John F. Kennedy?

[southlandshari]

89. Welcome to DU, Truman 01!

Glad you joined the discussion. You may get some heat on this, but I think you've made some interesting points.

[Truman01]

93. Thanks man, you know. . .

WE are the party of discussion. When WE stop being willing to listen to unpopular opinions in our own ranks, then WE are in some deep shit. I'm here to stay, unless you guys don't want to talk about anything but what is popular.

:toast: :bounce:

[KnowerOfLogic]

77. OMG. It's called the "Southern Strategy." What we did to "drive

them away" is that the democratic party started adopting civil rights planks into their platform. Instead of just standing up for the little *white* guy, they decided to start standing up for *all* the common people against the powerful and the unjust. *That* is what drove away southern ignoramouses, bigots, and haters. If you'd like to reverse that in order to win back the vote of southern christianazi racists, well, let's just say that dems would not be getting *my* vote anymore. But hey, it's all about winning, i guess.

[autorank]

82. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. My apologies!

The Democrats did exactly the right thing in supporting Civil Rights period, no questions. That's why I'm became a Democrat in 1969 and never voted for any Republican ever. It might have been helpful if ONE GD Democrat of national standing prior to Dean bothered to explain to everybody what was going on. The hard core white racists would have left us without any doubt. There are a bunch of whites in the South who are capable of comprehending what rotten bastards the Republicans have been on the race issue. And yes, calling the Republicans on their nasty game would allow Democrats to appeal to people of common class (economic) interests and do this across racial lines. It just blew my mind when Dean started talking about the Nixon etc. Southern strategy; not because it was new but because a presidential candidate was saying it. We've got a lot better chance of winning by telling the truth and trying to reach at least part of those who reflexively vote for the Republicans. Sorry to go on so long but this has bugged me for years and years.

[Sleepless In NY]

80. Truman01 yes it was the Civil Rights Act

and they have been running away from us since then.

[Truman01]

87. That isn't true

Again I live in the south and have for a long time. Southern whites aren't leaving because of the civil rights act. That is a stereotype against southern whites (of which I am one) that is just as unfair as any other racial stereotype.

Are you saying that because I'm a white man who lives in GA that I'm a bubba that doesn't like civil rights? I think that is half our problem. I have lived up north too and up north people tend to talk down to and make fun of southerns. I have news for you, southerners aren't stupid or uneducated. At one time they were a sold democratic voting block. They were loyal, and if we are ever to be a dominate party again, we need to figure out what happened. Its more important than these black box voting conspiracies.

[Goldmund]

91. Or is the the Democratic party that has gone from idiots to intellectuals

-- at least on civil rights and cultural issues?

[southlandshari]

84. kick for progress!

Thanks for a productive thread where some of us have finally fought it out on this lingering and divisive issue AND then started working together to focus on the real enemy (and not on fellow DUers in "red" or "blue" states)!

[southlandshari]

94. One last kick (I promise!)

Because I told my sister, a long-time red-state lurker on DU, about this thread and I hope she and other red state Dems will have a chance to check it out before it fades into the sunset. Maybe some will be encouraged to officially join our ranks.

I really enjoyed getting to know some of you who were new to me on this thread, including the original poster and common sense-talking AutoRank. I especially enjoyed the exchange with DUers like NuttyFluffers, now one of my new best friends here in cyberspace, with whom I could go several brutal electronic rounds with and still find common ground between us at the end of the day.

I hated trading insults with at least one veteran DUer on this thread, but don't regret anything I said. It is clear he doesn't either. I hope we can agree to disagree. And the offer still stands. Any blue stater who wants to spend a few bucks on the good businesses and events in my red state (and those dollars go a very long way here), please drop me a line next time you might pass through the Deep South. I promise to keep you safe and we all will treat you so many ways to Sunday you are bound to like one of them!

=)