No, Obama, don't say get over it!

[madfloridian]

NO No NO

[GRLMGC]

1. It's kinda hard to get over it

when so much is at stake. I understand that he's trying to get us to move on and whatnot but I generally don't like hearing someone telling me to get over it. Oh well, what can you do?

[madfloridian]

2. It hurts. Randi was upset as well.

You just don't say that to her and to Florida folks. She was in Florida when 2000 happened....she was furious then.

[UNIXcock]

95. Obama is correct, it does our party NO GOOD to continue beating ...

... a dead horse.

... The horse will not come back to life and it makes our party appear immature and bitter - neither positive images we want to project

[madfloridian]

111. okey dokey.

I said i was over it.

[lojasmo]

132. If we ignore it it will go away?

Perhaps if we don't think or talk about it, we will learn what we did wrong. :wtf:

[leesa]

150. Wrong. Ignoring a travesty does NOT make it go away. They told us to get

over the voter theft in 2000 and now they have stolen 2002 and 2004. So, tell me, does "getting over it" do ANYTHING to help??

[Bluebear]

3. Is this after his breakfast with Bush, Cheney and Rove?

[Goldmund]

4. Yup,

and it takes somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes for the implant to initialize.

[greenohio]

155. ROFLA

You are not bushborg. You will be assimilated.

[latebloomer]

5. You gotta go along

to get along.

:puke:

[sangh0]

6. Gee, no one's calling for Barack to be expelled

Suddenly, it's not a crime

[rabid_nerd]

7. you noticed that too,

huh?

[LoZoccolo]

9. Obama expulsion in five...four...three...two...

[sangh0]

12. NO PRINCIPLES!!!!

NO SPINE!!!

(someone should say it)

[madfloridian]

13. Not sure what you are responding to. It is your vote, too.

BUT, are you saying I am wrong? That we should move on, get over it, quit crying in your teacups?

You don't think the votes should be counted. Ok.

You are apparently making fun of my statement. Go ahead. it is damn well your country too.

[LoZoccolo]

15. Second time you've put words in my mouth.

It's like your "thing".

[madfloridian]

17. Well, the blast off thing did give that impression.

I am tired of people who are afraid to say we should count the vote.

[sangh0]

25. So a countdown means "don't want to count the votes"?

.

[AP]

26. He was called "craven" for being on Drugstore Cowyboy's radio show

today.

I predict that he will become a target of the anti-Democratic Underground soon.

Of course he has to become a target because he actually has the ability to become quite popular "If something isn't done" (to paraphrase one of my favorite passively-constructed sentences which frequently appears at DU).

It will be interesting to see how the strategy for undermining him unfolds here at DU.

[Politicub]

29. I don't get why you are so down on DU

Are you jaded by it or something? :shrug:

I'm not saying that it's perfect, but if you have such a negative opinion of the posters here, why do you even bother posting stuff yourself?

I think a lot of us feel burned by the "roll over and take it" strategy to get dems elected. I don't think it works, but I'm open to being swayed.

[AP]

31. Just getting engaged in the debate. Frankly, I have a bad taste in my

mouth after watching the shit people laid on Daschle here for three years and then having to see him lose to Thune.

I hope that makes everyone who hated him so much feel better.

[sangh0]

33. It did make them feel better to have a repuke elected Senator in SD

and they will feel better when they drag Obama down

[Politicub]

38. Who are "they?"

Name some names. Don't hide behind a pronoun.

[sangh0]

42. Against the rules.

.

[AP]

44. Search the archives for "Daschle" and "hate"

[Politicub]

40. It's almost cliche to say it

But the only person Daschle has to blame is himself (well, and Diebold and/or any of the other BBV vendors if they operate in SD).

I hate to see almost any dem lose, including the more conservative variety. Don't paint everyone with the same brush.

There have been some dems at the local level here in Atlanta who were very corrupt and doing a genuinely poor job. Sometimes its best not to go down with a sinking ship. And, my district is heavily democratic, so a better dem will usually take their place.

[AP]

48. Dems hated by DU since I've been here: Reno, McKinney, Kerry, Daschle.

DU has a better record of anticipating losing Democrats than winning Democrats.

It's funny how that works, eh?

And you can't say it's about politics, because Reno and McKinney were more liberal that the Democrats DU'ers preferred.

[Politicub]

51. You are never going to find someone who will please everyone here

So you have to do what's right for you I suppose.

I usually support losing campagins, so I'm pretty much used to it. :) I started out as a Dean supporter, but became enamoured with Kerry. I posted some pretty vile things about him on Nov. 3 after the concession speech, but I did it in the heat of the moment. Now I hope he's doing the right thing with the vote count.

What's my point with all this? I don't know actually. I guess I'm just trying to say that there is a wide range of view points here and I enjoy reading them. I've learned quite a lot.

[sangh0]

52. But it would be nice if there were ONE who wasn't relentlessly attacked

over trivia

[Politicub]

57. Yes, it would be nice

But I like the diversity of opinion. To each his own.

[AP]

60. And I'm giving my opinion on it.

[AP]

58. ...or if the general mood were, "hey, let's try to get liberals elected...

...no matter where they are, regardless of our narrow, and often contradictory concerns."

McKinney was too liberal to a lot of very vocal DU'ers, even though she was in a district that can clearly elect liberals. Daschle was too conservative in a district that clearly couldn't elect a more liberal Democrat. And apparently it's very easy to push DU'ers buttons to make them care about things other than realities like those.

[Cha]

123. Ya forgot Dean! n/t

[AP]

138. Dean got 90% of the love for a year. Then Clark came along, and it was

Clark vs Dean for the love.

For the most part, people dumped on Kerry and Edwards.

[tjdee]

87. I was going to start a flame baiting thread about Daschle today.

Was reading about Reid, missed Daschle, and was going to start a not nice thread about it.

I restrained myself.

[sangh0]

32. Did you read the subject line?

"I don't get why you are so down on DU

It's because of all the idiots who get upset over nothing.

[Politicub]

37. I did read the subject line

And sometimes it's OK to voice disagreement. If we all just did nothing, than that is exactly what would be accomplished - nothing.

It's a big deal to me that Obama said to get over it. He still has my support, so I'm not writing him off completely. But it doesn't hurt to hold these guys to a higher standard. I think we dems should always hold ourselves and others to a higher standard.

As Oscar Wilde wrote, "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."

[sangh0]

45. You're holding him to a LOWER standard

When someone is criticized for being honest, I don't see it as "holding him to a higher standard"

[Politicub]

49. What?

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm disappointed in what he said, but he has my full support.

Can't we all just get along?

[sangh0]

50. I am trying to say that maybe Obama honestly believes

that there is no good going to come from obsessing over the election. Maybe he sincerely believes that it's a waste of time to focus on this while bush* is moving forward on his agenda to end abortion, social programs, and start wars. Maybe he thinks it's a distraction.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but to suggest that he has "bent over" is unfair.

Can't we all just get along?

Not if we're going to get overly emotional over every last little thing we don't like.

[Politicub]

55. Good points

This is a message board, and it is rather easy to hit post.

If that's what he's trying to do, more power to him. I respectfully disagree with his strategy (if that's indeed what it is), but I think fixing voting problems in the US is far more than a distration.

[sangh0]

59. Disagreeing with strategy is one thing

Inflating it into "He's giving up his principles" is another

IOW, I distinguish between constructive criticism, and hysteria

but I think fixing voting problems in the US is far more than a distration.

Sometimes I wonder if the people who get so upset about this, and who are obviously VERY upset about the electoral theft take out their frustrations on Dems in order to avoid dealing with the real problem.

[Politicub]

113. I don't know - you tell me

You seem to think you know everything.

[sangh0]

116. It only seems that way

because I know more than you do

[Politicub]

118. And everyone else, too!

Mercy -- I am honored to be in the presence of your genius

[sangh0]

124. Think nothing of it

I'm all about gracing you with my presence.

[Cha]

125. I agree...it's not just

"getting over" losing..it's how we "lost".

[Flammable Materials]

142. Could we just FINISH THE COUNT before we call it quits?

The Republicans are evil.
The Democrats are conciliatory.
The third-parties are irrelevant.

Yep, time to leave.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

139. Maybe the fact that only

7 minutes passed between the time the thread was posted and your post (number 6, lol) has something to do with it.


:think:

[democratreformed]

8. I never understood his "superstardom" anyway.

I understand that he was great at campiagning. But noone has actually seen what he's gonna actually DO yet.

[Eric J in MN]

53. Me neither (nt)

nt

[cubsfan forever]

10. When/where did he say this? Link?

Professor 2

[madfloridian]

16. Randi Rhodes AAR just now.

Randi recoiled as well. You don't just say forget about it. You recount.

[cubsfan forever]

18. Thanks for the info! eom

Professor 2

[AgadorSparticus]

148. i noticed that too. and i have to admit, i was a little disappointed to

hear the kumbaya speech from him.

[OneTwentyoNine]

11. GAWD!! Oh.. lets just all be happy little creatures on this good earth...

Damnit,when the hell are Democrats REALLY going to get pissed and get a back bone?? This is EXACTLY what Repukes want,rigged up elections and Democrats that won't DARE call them out on it.

Ready to lose in 06' and 08'?? Wake the hell up..if these thugs could have a Democratic President assassinated they can sure as hell rig up a few voting machines. Man....

David

[madfloridian]

14. Wanting to count the vote is NOT hating Obama. Grow up, folks.

I will criticize my leaders any time I wish. We have got to stop saying get over the vote.

[saracat]

19. I agree madfloridian.

Obama didn't take long to sip the coolaid did he? Maybe that is why he got so much support?

[madfloridian]

20. I get tired of being attacked for wanting accountability.

I really do. We have to count and recount this time,or there won't be another.

And if I hear Howard Dean say get over it, I will blast him as well.

[UTUSN]

21. He Joined the D.C. Whore Circuit Today, Too, Don ANUS Circus

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2736048

[Malva Zebrina]

22. this is what I like about Randi Rhodes

She obviously did not agree with Barak Obama and his ideas of working "with" the Republicans and that we need to move on and essentially get over it because we have a lot of "work to do".

She was perfectly polite in her disagreement--not brash,even complimentary at times, but it was clear she was NOT going to accept it, especially when it came to counting votes which has been a passionate personal project of hers going back to 2000.

She will not relinquish her scruples in an attempt at "going along to get along", even in the face of a very popular, with the status of a star, brand new Senator.

What happens to people when they enter the vaunted halls as a Senator, anyway? I do now wonder about that breakfast with Cheney and Bush.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. Boy if he were John Kerry and said that......

:nuke:

[madfloridian]

27. Right, John Kerry said not to cry in your tea cups.

.

[sangh0]

35. And you called him a bush*-lite for it

but no name-calling when Obama does it

[this_side_up]

24. they bought him so soon after the

election? Or was he bought before the election?

Frankly, the more I see the Dems bending over
again and again, I think it was before.

And I liked him.

[madfloridian]

28. I LIKE Obama...good Lord, people.

He is a great guy. But he should not have said move on and get over it. Sorry, but that was wrong.

[AP]

34. Maybe Obama has a strategy he thinks will work?

[kitkatrose]

39. But why does that strategy

have to involve pissing off progressives?

I will admit, that I have no idea on the context, but if no one asked, he didn't have to say anything. If someone did, he could just say, "I want all the votes counted. That's what democracy is all about, that every vote matters." And if that ruffles peoples feathers, then we're worse off than I already think.

[Politicub]

41. I can't think of anything less harmful for him to say

Than what you wrote:

"I want all the votes counted. That's what democracy is all about, that every vote matters."

That's the most PC thing imaginable.

[kitkatrose]

69. Really, that's all I want.

For people to reserve judgement until all of the freaking votes are counted. That's all I wanted Kerry to do, that's what I thought he was doing before his concession.

[AP]

43. Because the progressives should be smart enough to understand what

he's doing and to realize that it's more important to reach out to people in the middle (and the millions of Democrats who voted for Bush) than it is to hold their hands.

Anyone who thinks Barak Obama doesn't care about progressives and about creating an America that delivers political, economic and cultural power to the people needs to get their political instruments inspected and re-guaged.

[madfloridian]

56. There you go...reach out to the middle....don't stand up for the vote.

I am sorry but this is just too much. I AM the middle. No one is reaching the heck out to me.

[AP]

61. How you equate those things is beyond me. That's quite a leap.

[madfloridian]

62. Because not one party person has said all the votes should be counted.

They did before the election.

I am sorry, but the Dems have passed devastatingly bad legislation this week-end. It worries me. Does not bother them.

For the first time, I see local DEC members getting irate at the party. This is the bunch sitting on their butts and pleasing Republicans for years. They are furious today at their party.

[sangh0]

63. You're not telling the truth

Kerry said all the votes should be counted, and so have many Dems.

the Dems have passed devastatingly bad legislation this week-end

No, that was the repukes. But don't let the facts stop you.

[saracat]

65. Only Kerry and Edwards. Not many Dems.

Edit. Prominent Dems!

[sangh0]

66. wrong

but not surprising considering the source

[saracat]

73. Excuse me isn't that an attack? And list your other Dems loudly

calling for all the votes to be counted.I listed Kerry and Edwards. Who are the others? List them please.

[sangh0]

76. Lieberman, Nadler, Obama, Schumer,

numerous Dems in Ohio, yesterday Dems won a suit against the repukes who wanted to stop handcounts in one district....

And that's right off the top of my head.

[saracat]

91. Uh Uh .They all said "Get over it" And they didn't say "every vote".

And Schumer is busy looking for a southern Democrat governor for 2008. And we all know what atrusted Dem leiberman is.This is a joke!

[sangh0]

104. They said "Count all the votes"

Instead of admitting you were wrong when you said Kerry and Edwards were the ONLY ones, you try to distract with irrelevant whines.

It must be those bitter grapes

[AP]

64. The Berkeley team said that there weren't enough votes in FL

to make a difference and that Ohio looked right.

The Berkeley team said that now local politicans in FL should take a look at the evote problem especially in three particularly bad counties. I'm not sure what Obama can do about how FL counts its votes right now and I'm not sure if he should stake his reputation on FL and OH vote counting just yet.

I'm really not sure what he could possible do right now. NH and OH are counting. We'll see where that goes.

[madfloridian]

70. And Bev questioned them.

Said to wait.

[sangh0]

77. So what?

And wait for what?

They are STILL counting. Nothing stopped.

[AP]

79. What do you mean "Bev questioned them"?

She doubts them?

[sangh0]

83. Does Bev have proof?

.

[Malva Zebrina]

102. No

she and some ad hoc Democrat organistion of "disgruntled" Democrats, picked the garbage in some precinct in Florida and she managed to get a two hour interview with the manager of that district and that is not hard to do, and that is all. There were a few "discarded" suspicious looking ballots in that garbage bag,but no one has seen them or a picture of them nor have they made any impact at all.

In fact, few are paying attention at all to her and her garbage bag "expose". It appears to be hype most of the time, coming from Bev Harris.

Bev Harris is supposed to be a neutral participant. All I see is PR and gung ho posts here from her supporters while all the while, there is nothing much there at all from what I see.

And still asking for donations--for what? Her airfare to Florida. Lunches for the disgruntled ad hoc group that assists her? Her camaraman's salary? What does this money go to? To continue making video's of her actions in Florida, which she will promote for herself?

I admit at times I am naive, but this sort of publicizing does nothing at all to promote the cause-it appears to be a scam, as a matter of fact-and the solicitation of money for nothing at all but to promote herself, when she is not connected in any way to the real recounts or challenges is suspect to me.

[AP]

137. Considering all the things one could make money off and get publicity for

I have no problem in the least with what Bev is doing, and the Berkeley group's research methods seem pretty reliable (and they made it clear that there is a broad range of explanations for why the evote preicincts didn't fit the model -- from smudges to whatever).

She's definitely shining light where it needs to be shined. The point I was making above is that even with the missing evotes, it looks like there weren't enough votes in Flordia for Kerry to win, if the Berkeley group is right. I was wondering what Bev had to say about that.

(BTW even if there aren't enough votes, she's still doing valuable work.)

[kitkatrose]

67. So what exactly does that entail?

Reaching out to the middle, for the most part feels like we're becoming more Republican. And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :) Is it really necessary to reach out to the middle, who seem a lot like undecided voters in that they don't really think about elections/issues, until it's right on their doorstep? Or do we try to make new lifelong dem/progressive voters? And yes I realize that the two aren't mutually exclusive, but reaching out to the middle in practice doesn't really seem to be working. I mean, that is supposedly what we've been doing for the last few years right?

[AP]

72. The Democrats have a message that should work for 90% of Americans.

It shouldn't be hard to win elecitons with 65% of the vote without changing one single policy.

What's stopping them is perception -- it's the way a lot of moderates perceive Democrats, and has nothing to do with what Democrats actually believe in.

Reaching out to the middle means talking about the things you already believe in in a way that people who don't vote Democrat now, but who should be voting Democratic will understand.

[kitkatrose]

92. So is the perception problem entirely our fault?

I mean, do you think the moderates perception of dems is brought on by what we've done/said/whatever, or is it media trouble?

Personally, I think there's lots of blame to go around for that one. The media has helped reduce American attention span by feeding to the lowest common denomonator with Scott Peterson and all that rot. It's not adhering to its original purpose to inform the public and ask the questions that make "the man (pick your poison)" uncomfortable, instead of being ass-kissers. And then we have an education system, overall, that doesn't encourage independent thinking (I know, I just graduated from it two years ago) and in some places has its collective head up its ass *cough*creationism*cough*. And the dems aren't exactly marketing geniuses when it comes to getting out our message, although I'm not sure about what we can do.

But most importantly, I think people need to utilize their brains and realize that for most things, especially policy, there are no simple answers and if someone tries to tell you that, then something's up. If we turn our brains on we can actually think about policies, how to implement them, and what politicians actually say and do. Then you can go ahead and vote repub, so long as you're making and informed decision (not because you're mama did it, democrats are baby-killers who want Europe to direct our foreign policy, etc. :eyes: ) And that right there is hopelessly optimistic for me.

[sangh0]

120. I think it's due to a lot of things

but we can't control the media. However, we can control what we say.

Personally, I think there's lots of blame to go around for that one...But most importantly, I think people need to utilize their brains and realize that for most things, especially policy, there are no simple answers

I agree 100%. But I'm more interested in working out a way out of this than apportioning blame. That's not meant to say that that's what you're doing - you obviously are thinking about it because you've thought about how we got here. I just want to emphasize the importance of what we can do.

[sangh0]

121. And here's a link to a sample chapter of Don't Think of an Elephant

http://www.chelseagreen.com/images/DTE_Sampler.pdf

See if you like it.

[sangh0]

127. Here's another Lakoff link

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041206&s=lakoff

to an article in The Nation

[kitkatrose]

128. I was thinking more about what was wrong,

so we can go about fixing it. We can modify our words and even if we can't solve the problem within this generation, we can work on fixing the next one.

[sangh0]

129. Yes, that's what I meant to say

You've been thinking about what's gone wrong and how to fix it

gtg, thanks

[sangh0]

74. It entails

finding new language to promote our policies. Language that shows how our policies are rooted in our values, American values like compassion, charity, protection, support, etc.

Is it really necessary to reach out to the middle...

I don't know. Is it really necessary to appeal to the MAJORITY in a democracy?

but reaching out to the middle in practice doesn't really seem to be working.

Which is why we need to do a BETTER job of it. Not by compromising our values, but by EMPHASIZING our values, which as a general rule, liberals don't do, IMO.

[AP]

75. RTFO

Right The Fuck On.

[saracat]

78. So we lost"fair and square"?

More Americans voted for Bush because we had a sucky message? Is that your position? And we had a sucky candidate too? And fundies are the majority?

[sangh0]

82. HAHAHAHA!!!!!

There hasn't been an honest election in about 200 years.

The issue isn't "Fair and square"

The issue is "Can we prove it?"

More Americans voted for Bush because we had a sucky message?

Yes

And we had a sucky candidate too?

No

And fundies are the majority?

No.

But keep making up more hysteria. I find it entertaining

[saracat]

101. Are you always this insulting to those you don't agree with?

I suppose you could come up with a great argument about how beneficial it was to "move on"after 2000 as well? Worked out well for us all didn't it? But we didn't want to divide the country then and god knows, we don't want to be divisive now! LOL !

[sangh0]

105. No, just the ones who try to put words in my mouth

.

[lojasmo]

134. No, everybody, actually. N/T

[sangh0]

144. You want to put you money where your mouth is?

We'll find someone we both trust to hold the money, and then I'll prove you wrong,

[lojasmo]

149. No thanks. You'd probably donate it to Lieberman for 2008

[saracat]

162. Great reponse.Giggle.

Smack the Morans! :yourock:

[AP]

85. I think it's safe to say that we could be doing a better job.

Why does everyone need a single magic bullet answer?

There are dozens of things we could be doing better. No one precludes considering the rest, and we're not going to win elections pretending we only need to do one thing.

Happens to be, in my opinion, that the most productive avenue is refining the message because that, to me, is the area where the smallest investment can reap the greatest rewards.

E-voting fraud in Florida doesn't look like it will make up the margin of victory for Bush. But refining the message could make Democrats competitive in twice as many states.

[sangh0]

88. Why does everyone need a single magic bullet answer?

TO quote the pre-eminent philosopher of the 20th Century, Barbie:

"Thinking is hard work"

[kitkatrose]

90. Okay, I get all of that.

What I guess I'm looking for is specifics on how to do this. How do we emphasize our values? What new language should we be using to promote our policies. I think we do that pretty well, but then, I pay attention and try to read candidates positions, which I don't think most of the self-admitted middle does. I do think we need to clarify some things, but since the media loves 30 second soundbites and not well thought out responses, I don't see that happening sometime soon.

Not by compromising our values, but by EMPHASIZING our values, which as a general rule, liberals don't do, IMO.

I agree with the first part, but how aren't liberals emphasizing dem values? If we're talking about in politics, I don't particularly see a lot liberals there.

[sangh0]

106. I suggest you read some of George Lakoff's books

His a cognitive scientist who has done a lot of work on this exact issue. Here's a list of three books his written that I know of

Metaphors to Live By
Moral Politics - How Liberal and Conservatives Think
DOn't Think of an Elephant

There's also a new forum called "Framing the Issues" or something like that. I suggest you check that out also.

[kitkatrose]

114. Hmm. Okay.

Put on my wish list. Thanks. :hi:

[Blue_Roses]

141. well said!

:bounce:

[greenohio]

156. Theres something about being progressive...

that just includes being pissed off, apparently.

C'mon people, we mad at all of our leaders? Clintons, Kerry, Gore, DLC, Barak, Schumer.....

Ahhh life in the wilderness.

[kitkatrose]

164. Uhh, I'm going to have to ask you to explain that.

I would respectfully submit that some of the people pissed at the leaders never really liked them all that well in the first place. Or at least their policies and such.

[saracat]

68. Clinton said it too, and I called him a jackass. This is wrong and

ONLY Kerry and Edwards have loudly called for ALL the votes to be counted.And ONLY Kerry and Edwards have pledged to make sure it is done. You are right MF. Keep on truckin . Doesn't matter who they are . Wrong is wrong!

[sangh0]

80. YOu aren't telling the truth

Obama, Schumer, Nadler and others have also called for ALL the votes to be counted.

[lojasmo]

135. I think it was sarcasm.

Nader, Cobb, and Badnarik are the three who are speaking the loudest....they aren't even DEMOCRATS for chrissake.

Obama is covering his ass.

[sangh0]

145. Then you think wrong.....again

She's been repeating that several times.

[Stephanie]

30. Obama speaking in NYC tomorrow

at the Union Sq. Barnes & Noble at 7:00 IIRC - better double-check if you're going.

[Skarbrowe]

46. Nothing against Obama, but

maybe his head is still in the clouds due to his recent Senate victory and nation wide mucho positive treatment. HIS political career is just beginning and maybe, just maybe, he doesn't feel the loss that we on the DU and, oh, over half the country feels. In his mind it's time to move on. The future looks rosy to him right now. Plus, a lot of Democrats are jumping on the rush to the center-right to get elected band-wagon.

We know you can't make any kind of peace with or reach out to the far-right repugs that are running this country.

Give him some time to see what he is up against and if his tune doesn't change, then he is most likely sipping the kool-aid to advance his career. I hope to hell that isn't the case. I like the guy so far.

[Malva Zebrina]

98. He said on R Rhodes today

that he got a million votes from Republicans. That should tell you something. He may not want to go the way of Daschel if he desires to stay in the Senate.

[lessthanjake]

36. We should get over it

There is very little chance we will ever prove fraud. Its just going to be a conspiracy theory. We should get over it.

[FubarFly]

54. We shouldn't get over it.

Even if we don't prove fraud, we can still prevent fraud in the future. It's not just a conspiracy theory. We shouldn't get over it.

[lessthanjake]

94. Look we look like sore loser idiots

SZorry but we do and there is NO way we will ever succeed.

[saracat]

126. To whom? The Republicrats?

Is it better to not try to do something? How did doing nothing in 2000 benefit us? I don't get whose opinion we should be so worried about.

[sangh0]

47. As we speak, bush* is working to overturn abortion, environmental regs,

social spending, and start new wars. Instead of FIGHTING that, some wants us to obsess over something we can't do much about.

[saracat]

86. And who is helping him do that? Look at the votes. The moderates are

voting with Bush and so are the moderate Dems! Who is preventing this? And those are the people you trust to make change? At least Kerry is voting to try and stop this. Do you think we have four years? I want the votes counted now and election reform NOW.I am glad you can wait.

[sangh0]

107. Everyone has their priorities

Some choose to put attacking the repukes first,

Some think attacking dems is the priority

[saracat]

161. And you are dimissive of any priorities not your own.

[sangh0]

165. I dismiss repuke priorities

like dissing dems, a priority you defend

[saracat]

166. So all Dems are sanctrospect? Zell Miller is a hero?

and let us not forget the great Joe Lieberman, a great fan of George Bush! I remember Lieberman saying that if we didn't nominate him, we deserve to lose.I am sure you can look that quote up. But I guess it is only people like myself that don't have the right to diss the Dems. You seem to be quite the supporter of some other Dems who diss the party. And BTW, if you diss those of us who diss certain Dems, aren't you also dissing Dems, or have those of us who criticize automatically been excommunicated Democratic Party???? Just wondering.

[Uzybone]

71. Damn that Obama

which other elected Dem can we trash now?

[greenohio]

157. This is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND isn't it?

or did I push the wrong button?

[madfloridian]

81. Ok, I have learned my lesson.Obama was right to say that.

We should get over it right now. I have been convinced.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShaneGR]

89. Obama has a reputation for brutal, straight, talk

That was his MO in the illinois race, honesty.

By the way, I think he's right.

[madfloridian]

93. Ok, I am over it.

No recount.

[amandabeech]

154. Then I hope that he directs that straight talk to the Repukes.

When he starts talking and DOING something about the loss of decent jobs here, then I'll be converted.

He won big in Illinois against a non-opponent. I don't know the senate in Illinois, but in D.C., things can get vicious.

That straight, blunt talk may not work well everywhere. In fact, both Kerry and Obama showed something of a tin ear psychologically by telling people in mourning to "get over it." Mourning takes stages and people deeply affected must deal with it in their own time. "Get over it" statements don't help; they just make the mourners angry and withdrawn. It's not a great way to energize many supporters.

To me, Obama remains promising, but untested.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

96. Well, hopefully this will do some good...

...Naaaaaaa...

We'll just HATE OBAMA NOW!!!!!


Sigh...

[PopSixSquish]

97. Didn't Take Long for the DU Tilt-a-Whirl

to fire up again.

Seems to me that I remember a Sunday afternoon just before the DNC where Obama was on MTP and Timmy did his level best to get him to say something nasty about W. Well, then-candidate Obama didn't bite and some here on DU went crazy. Absolutely, bat-shit crazy. I had to check the URL to make sure I hadn't clicked onto the wrong site.

But then he went a gave a great speech at the DNC, which reminded all of us about why were are in this party and all was forgiven.

Then, he actually won and suddenly there were Obama in 08 threads up everywhere, before he'd even been sworn in, given a speech on the Senate floor or sponsered a bill.

So, now we're back to hating on him again...somebody let me know when it's time to like him. Not that I ever stopped...

[ShaneGR]

99. I'm really worried about DU....

It really has become more of a site to tear down the Democratic Party than build it up.

Sad, very sad.

[madfloridian]

100. "Hating on him" because I want my vote to count.

Ah jeez.

[Q]

103. The usual apologist show up...

...to throw scorn at anyone who doesn't march in lockstep and love all Dems all the time. Some even call this criticism 'hate'.

It seems these same apologists want to be so much like the opposition that even self-examination and criticism is out of the question. Don't like something a Democrat says or the way they vote on important issue? Shut up! Shut up and take it.

It's too bad that some don't realize that the way to lose a Democracy (and elections) is to stay quiet in the face of tyranny and corruption.

[sangh0]

109. Why do you hate our freedoms?

.

[janx]

108. Obama has a lot of stamina and hope, MF. He's not afraid. We need

more like him.

[madfloridian]

110. I just said Obama should have said get over it. I said that.

I am most definitely chastened here, janx. Thanks so very much.

All our democrats should not go there. They should ignore the voting recounts.

Obama was right to say it. We need to get the hell over it. Ok?

[Q]

119. I'm not sure what kind of representative Obama will turn out to be...

...but it's a bit strange that he and others in the party don't seem to understand that many on the left are getting pissed that they are using the same 'get over it' language used by the RWingers after the 2000 election. (Don't fight...get over it and move on).

Many of us are tired of being told to 'get over it' instead of our representatives doing their jobs.

[madfloridian]

122. I should not have questioned party leaders.

He was right, we need to get over it.

I will not question them again.

[madfloridian]

112. Yes, we need to pull the people doing the recounts.

They might make us look like fools. You are right.

[madfloridian]

115. For the 3rd time, let me say..Obama was right to say that.

I was wrong. Clinton was right to say get over it. Kerry was right to say quit crying in your teacups.

I was wrong to question them.

I apologize to all I offended here by questioning what Obama said. I hope Randi Rhodes will likewise apologize for being upset.

You guys are right, I was wrong. We will look like fools if we question the vote.

[madfloridian]

117. I will no longer question the party leaders.

They are our leaders, and they deserve nothing but respect. I apologize for the times I criticized them.

[greenohio]

158. You know, you need to add sarcasm tags

we can't tell the tone of your voice. But based on your name, I'll bet your mad.

[madfloridian]

160. I just feel very bad that I offended you with my criticism.

I am truly sorry. We have good leaders in this country, and we need to get behind them wherever they lead us.
If they think the voting is ok, then we should not question it.

No, my name is from the 2000 election in Florida, but I am so over it now. I learned that it is best not to question. I am not mad now, just very accepting that we need to play nice. It really works.

[Laelth]

130. My wife and I just had an hour long discussion about this.

She and I are (ultimately) both in the "if we don't fight now, we lose democracy forever camp." But just to test some of the very important arguments in this thread, I took the side of the "protect the party image" crowd and asked how she would respond to those arguments. She looked at me like I was crazy, and then, by her nature and inclination, took the side of the "fight for democracy and fair elections now and at all costs" crowd. I won't summarize the debate for you because it followed the lines of the arguments already laid out here, more or less. We did come up with some conclusions, though, and I'd like to share those here. Ultimately, both positions suck.

1. On the one hand, if we take the "get over it and protect the party image route" then we're exactly the roll-over and take it wusses that the American people already think we are. If we go this route, we set ourselves up for permanent minority status in the US--no more than a token party that makes the ruling party look legitimate. The Dems we have now and the Dems we might manage to elect in the future will be able to deliver some scraps from the table for the poor and disenfranchised, but that's all they'll get--table scraps.

2. On the other hand, if we take the "fight now, fight hard, expose the fraud and try to save democracy" route, we're almost certain to lose. We will get branded sore losers. We might be able to expose fraud, but we won't be able to get TV coverage of it, and we won't be able to fix it. There's no incentive for the R's to fix it, and they call the shots right now. Plus, continuing to make an issue of fraud threatens the survival of democracy as much as the fraud itself, in that it calls into question the legitimacy of the government. Even though we believe the * government is illegitimate, it might be more wise to pretend it is legitimate, regardless. Even if we could manage to show that this government is illegitimate, what would that gain us? The most likely results would be either marshal law (and complete dictatorship) or civil war (perhaps a worse evil than fighting for table scraps).

3. Those of us who are affluent enough to get out probably will (provided the borders don't close sooner than we expect). Those who remain will suffer. But for those on the left who remain, this seems to be the choice--either permanent minority status and impotence or brutal conflict. As I said earlier, both choices are bad. To us, Canada looks really nice (and I admit to a sense of shame at my cowardice).

-Laelth


P.S. madfloridian--I understand and share your anger at Obama or anyone else who tells those of us who believe in democracy to just "get over it." I hope to never "get over" my faith in democracy. I wish I could give you some useful advice about how to channel that anger.

[madfloridian]

131. I am not angry anymore. I love my party.

They are right to tell us to get over it. It is ok. My anger is gone now.

[Laelth]

133. I find your parody of lock-step repuke party loyalty ...

... amusing and effective.

:toast:

-Laelth

[madfloridian]

136. And I found your post very thoughtful.

Thanks for sharing.
:hi:

[barb162]

140. I view it pretty much as you do. The fundies and vulcans have

won and we won't be able to win the country back. The media, the corporations, too many ignorant voters, both houses of Congress... there's no way to fight back. Shrub will never be impeached, as evidenced by the House Ethics Committee not doing anyhting to Delay last week other than go after the Democrat who accused him. The Supreme Court will shortly be all pug. It's over.

[gordianot]

143. He is still young and on a learning curve.

Give him some time, the superstar status he got at the convention was premature.

Let Obama mature, he may be someone very special.

[madfloridian]

146. I apologized for being critical.

I should know not to do that. He is right of course, we all need to move on and get over it. We did that in 2000, and we can do it in 06 and 08.

He is right.

[gordianot]

147. I feel the same way it is very very hard to move on.

I am very tired of picking up the pieces over and over.

[ElectroPrincess]

153. I doubt it ...

Now being considered a "hopeful" it's time for his full compromise. Saying a lot of warm and encouraging sentiments but doing NOTHING for the working and middle class.

I do not respect "talk only" politicans at all. He will just be a pretty talking head.

If he was courageous he'd take on the radical right.

BTW = Howard Dean for DLC Chair!!! There's a man with moral courage.

[Catchawave]

151. I'm still not over 2000 :(

Though part of me wants to move on and fix what's broken. What irks me most, when people say it's too early to think about 2006 and 2008.

[deutsey]

152. Hmph. Another tough-talking Dem who folds when we need a real leader

:puke:

[lojasmo]

159. We should start getting over

HRC/JFK/JE's loss in 2008 too.

Thank you in advance, DLC.

[Snivi Yllom]

163. Obama saying it like it is. I like this guy even more.

He should continue to slap some sense into those who refuse to face reality.

This guy is going to go places.