Why is Dean so controversial here?

[GRLMGC]

I'll admit, I wasn't here during the primaries so I didn't see the arguments that occured during that time. I supported Dean but I guess I wasn't a "Deaniac". Why do so many dislike him? I really don't understand. Will someone please explain this to me?

[alexisfree]

1. I don't..

I respect Dean..he doesn't take crap..

[GRLMGC]

6. To me

he seemed like a good spokesperson for Kerry during this campaign

[K-W]

2. There are several controversies surrounding Dean.

Did he choke, was he screwed over, or did everyone overestimate his chances in the primary?

Is he a true progressive, a politician who recognizes the political future in progressivism, or somewhere in between (and where)?

Can he create and lead a progressive political force that can become influential in the democratic part?

[seafey]

3. Me personally...

I live in Nevada where Yucca Mountain is a big issue. As governor of Vermont, Dean fought for it. As presidential candidate, he was suddenly against it. He was shady- he got his governor records sealed which is apparently not done, in normal circumstances. He also was one of the nodding heads on TV giving credence to the false claims about weapons of mass destruction.

He just in general struck me as shady. Think they trashed Kerry for flipflopping? They would have actually had a damn good point if it had been Dean.

[madfloridian]

11. Shady? I'm sorry. Is this an organized thingy?

Better go check out some organizational forums. Oopsy....Shady Dean day.

[seafey]

13. That went right over my head.......

I don't get it.

[Denver Socialist]

17. Excuse me, but sealing gubernatorial records

is NORMAL.

Better start with Chimpy McCokespoon, before you start with Dean! He's also hidden his dad's and Raygun's presidential records too.

[seafey]

22. I know *they* do it, but non-shady types don't. (nt)

[sangh0]

29. Odd to argue that it's not shady because the repukes do it.

Next, somone will be quoting Nixon

[seafey]

35. are you replying to me or denver socialist?

'cause that's exactly what I'm sayin!

[sangh0]

36. I replying to you, but reerring to what ds said

I agree with you.

[seafey]

37. got it

:toast:

[Nay]

4. I didn't see that here, really. There were some real Deaniacs, and

there were tons of people like me, who would have been very happy with any one of these three: Dean, Kucinich, Clark. I'm sure there were a few that 'hated' Dean, but probably not as many as who disliked Kerry.

[KurtNYC]

5. Lately the discussion has been about whether Dean

would have done any better than Kerry. Arguments based on speculation tend to be less restrained.

[greenohio]

7. I think dislike for the Deaniacs is confused with dislike for him.

The deaniacs hate the DLC because they believe the DLC 'fixed the primaries' to keep dean out. Because Clinton was DLC he is guilty by association and gets lambasted as well. So, those who don't blame Clinton and the DLC for all of our ills find themselves in a struggle with the Deaniacs.

The funniest part about it is that Dean is a self described fiscal conservative. He is soft on economic issues just like the DLC. He is pro gun, pro nafta and cut taxes in VT.

Their only point of contention, as I can find, is the Iraq war. DLC supported it (unfortunately) and Dean's campaign's life came from anti war energy.

[seafey]

10. Yeah- Dean said outright that he's *not* a liberal. OY. (nt)

[K-W]

16. Apperently as long as he keeps triangulating near them,

some progressives will mistake him for an idealogue every time.

[JNelson6563]

60. Not true

Here in Michigan I knew a broad spectrum of people who supported Dean. From dyed-in-the-wool liberals to moderate Rethugs. The liberals admitted he was not as liberal as they'd like but they were willing to compromise a bit if it meant a no-nonsense kind of candidate who was (here's the important part) willing to fight.

I am membership chair for my local Dem party and I can tell you that Dean meet-ups were great for membership. He was a great draw to the cause.

Julie

[Mandate My Ass]

8. Hooooooo weeeeeeeeeee

You obviously weren't here during the primaries. Those threads were nuclear. I'm a Kucinich supporter so my flame retardant undies got vaporized early on in the primaries but the Dean controversy hasn't seemed to taper off one little bit.

[NoPasaran]

9. No particular reason

Some people are just naturally confrontational

[JNelson6563]

12. He's a great threat to the establishment

Especially the DLCers who think we need to capitulate more! Ugh!

Julie

[sangh0]

33. Yes, the repukes were very threatened by his loss.

.

[JNelson6563]

41. But they were happy to see Kerry was their "opposition"

I can understand why. ;-)

Once a bonesman always a bonesman, eh? :toast:

Julie

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JNelson6563]

49. Oh spare me the dramatics.

Still smarting over Kerry tucking tail and running before the votes were even counted Sang-ho? I don't blame you.

Oh and I don't deny Dean lost the primaries. Hell, when you have everyone throwing their votes to others to stop you it's kinda insurmountable. At least it took a gang of Dems to stop Dean, not some trained chimp. :-)

Julie

[sangh0]

51. HAHAHAHAHA!

You bring up a Skull and Bones conspiracy, and say I'm dramatic

Boy, that's rich! I guess you're still smarting over how Dean LOST EVERY PRIMARY STATE

[JNelson6563]

61. Not at all

Dean is still making a difference. Kerry's promoting health care for every child from his impotent position. Dean will likely go on making a positive difference for the Democratic party. We can only hope Kerry doesn't capitulate as much as he did during the trained chimp's last turn.

And an FYI for you Sangy, I worked my ass off to get Kerry elected. I neglected my home and family for many months to see this happen. At least 40 hours a week of volunteer work, often more. Would you be able to say the same if Dean was our candidate? Can you even say the same for Kerry's run? Was I crazy about Kerry? Um, no. Did I know he'd be much better than a trained chimp with fascist leanings? You bet. Did it make me very happy to see Dean working hard to get Kerry elected? Yes.

I personally raised huge money for my local party and then played purchasing agent so efficiently I was able to keep ours and many other counties well supplied with Kerry swag.

Again, I hafta wonder if you'd be able to say the same if Dean had been our candidate or even if you did anything close for Kerry. I'd wager some cash on "no". On both counts.

Julie

[sangh0]

94. Does every child have health care?

or is this another example of a Deaniac praising Dean for accomplishing nothing?

As for the rest, it's just another attempt to avoid defending Dean by attacking someone else.

[JNelson6563]

99. hahaha!!!!!!

Thanks for the laugh Sangy--though I know that wasn't your intention. You are so amusing.

Nope, every child doesn't have health care and, in spite of people like me working our asses off full time, John Kerry was unable to beat a trained chimp and do something about getting them health care.

Thanks for playing though. :-)

Julie

[sangh0]

102. And Dean was unable to beat the guy who was unable to beat a chimp

Didn't couldn't even win ONE state in the primaries.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

122. Vermont*.

Important? No. Proof that you're often not in command of the facts? :shrug:



* and D.C.

[sangh0]

127. You were supposed to say

"You forgot about Vermont!"

And thanks for stepping in it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

158. One can't avoid "stepping in it"

when responding to your posts.

So you get your jollies trying to bait people into saying things like "You forgot about Vermont?" Rapier wit like that doesn't come along every day. You're truly a unique talent.

For those unfamiliar with sangh0, this is as good as it gets.


Got your sock ready, sangh0? Here goes:

You forgot about Vermont!

[sangh0]

159. Thank you

and the all the other little people that made this possible

[JNelson6563]

150. It took a cabal of "Dems" to stop Dean

took one trained chimp to stop Kerry.

Keep digging. Need a bigger shovel?

Julie

[sangh0]

154. Then it didn't take much, huh?

Dean couldn't figth them off?

And he was gonna kick bush*'s ass?

Uh huh

[JNelson6563]

Yeah, the national media whores

and all the comfy establishment Dems had to ban together to stop Dean.

Kerry let wave of attacks hit and smolder for weeks before answering. I'd like to think even you could be intellectually honest enough to admit if they'd thrown that shit at Dean he'd have come out swinging lickety-split. Oh wait. I forgot, intellectual honesty isn't condusive to blind loyalty.

Nevermind.

Julie

[sangh0]

171. If Dean couldn't beat them off in the primaries

how would he beat them off in the GE?

[JNelson6563]

169. dupe

*

[Cha]

114. Every child had "health care"

in Vermont and then some, though..didn't they Julie?!

:toast:

[sangh0]

129. And in the US?

.

[JNelson6563]

148. Dean's done what others talk about

and so it goes.

[Cha]

152. Ad infinitum!

Dean and all of us have reason to be proud of some of the 2004 races..

" Democracy for America contributed more than $600,000 to 634 candidates for non-federal office. 319 of those candidates won--a 50% win-loss record.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to state legislatures in 16 states. Candidates for legislature who received Democracy for America contributions, but were not part of the "Dean Dozen," were elected in an additional 12 states.

• Democracy for America played a large role in regaining several legislative chambers for the Democrats, including: the Colorado House and Senate, the North Carolina House, the Oregon Senate, the Vermont House and the Washington Senate. DFA also helped secure a tie in the Iowa Senate.

• "Dean Dozen" candidates were elected to the bench in Alabama and Georgia."

Bless Dean's workalcoholic heart!

Edit to say.."your's too!"

[TeacherCreature]

194. These are the sort of FACTs that the Dean-Bashers never acknowledge...

They are too cowardly and bitter after the war-hero, "untouchabel" candidate they shoved down our collective throats as "electable" didn't even see fit to wait a day or two before conceding to Bush and his goons in Ohio....

Meanwhile folks like me worked Day and Night to Kerry elected and DFA helped to accomplish many of the very few clear victories we won on election night.

The DLC Dean-Bashers have a proven record of serial losses against the Republicans whose policies and buzz-words they so passinately embrace.

I say we just forget about them, work through DFA, and make sure that next time their hopelessly compromized and ineffective candidates are handed the crushing primary defeats they have so richly earned.

[sangh0]

155. Actually, DLC "get over it" Clinton covered more children

than Dean will ever do, and he even did it in RED states.

[NYCGirl]

173. Well, considering he was the PRESIDENT AT THE TIME, that's a good thing.

There are more children in the entire US than there are in Vermont.

[sangh0]

175. So IOW, Dean didn't do much

and remember, Dean couldnt have insured the children of VT if it weren't for CHIPS. Guess who is responsible for CHIPS?

A: The DLC and Bill Clinton

[a new day]

91. Me too, worked for Kerry as if I liked him

To have the amount of vitriol heaped on me for criticizing Kerry after he abandoned all those who worked so hard for him is nonsensical.

Masochism is a requirement for being a Kerry true believer, it seems.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

107. I have a theory

Those who seem to be the usual suspects in the heaping of abuse on Dean supporters fail to realize just how many Dean supports there were busting ass to get Kerry elected. My theory is, while we were out there humping it to get him elected they were here spouting noise online thinking they had it in the bag. Now that reality has spanked them, they have no defense other than "Whaaaaaaa the election was stolen, waaaaaaaaaa the deck was stacked against us, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" My question to those who insist on continuing the BS is this. What did YOU do avoid the problems we ALL knew existed long before the election? What did YOU do to ensure a win? What are YOU doing now?

[sangh0]

132. I have a theory too

Some Deaniacs don't seem to understand that the majority of Dean's supporters are reasonable people, unlike them.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

142. But do you have

anything Original?

[sangh0]

153. Yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1128869

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1128437

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1048683

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=709647

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=429540

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1454899

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1480362

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1493915

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2716809

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=827

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2649633

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2600912

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1318363

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2496824

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2296329#2296351

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2162519

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2138340

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1904437

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1670034

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1657384

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1594623

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1489835

Do you?

[Demobrat]

50. So did Kerry win? Is our long national nightmare over?

I've been living in a cave and haven't heard.

[sangh0]

52. Cant you defend Dean?

Oh wait. I just remembered

No one can defend Dean

[Demobrat]

56. Defend Dean from what?

I didn't even mention Dean. I asked a question. Did Kerry win?

[sangh0]

58. You want the entire list?

.

[Demobrat]

64. I guess Kerry must have lost

to the worst president in history, or you would have answered the question by now. Thanks for playing.

[sangh0]

95. Dean lost to those who lost to the worst president

so I guess he's not quite the fighter some claim he is

[WonderGrunion]

163. And yet...

Dean may still become DNC chair now that Vilsack has withdrawn. It looks like Dean may yet become a national leader or the Democratic Party ... unlike John Kerry.

[sangh0]

164. That would be great!

The perfect way to muzzle Dean.

[Demobrat]

185. What are you so afraid of?

Kerry's already lost and can never run on "electability" again. So it's not like Dean can hurt him. He's already history.

[Demobrat]

177. Dean ran against the Democrats, the Republicans and the media.

Kerry ran against a chimp and couldn't win even with ABB and every progressive group in the country working day and night to haul his ass across the finish line. Look, the guy is a loser who stands for nothing but himself. Even most of the people who voted for him admit that openly.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

134. Wow

Another poster with no defense of Dean, just a another personal attack.

I'm so surprised

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

176. They tell me about the nastiness of some Deaniacs

who hypocritically complain about other's nastiness. Now watch while your post gets deleted by the mods, and it won't be because of it's positivity

[GodHelpUsAll2]

157. Bravo Quill

I have noticed that myself. Where ever there is fire ol sang is right there in the middle with the same one liners repeated over and over and over and over.

[sangh0]

160. And Bravo to you

for all the fine contributions you've made, though I can't say I've noticed any of them

Unless another personal attack from a Deaniac is supposed to be a "contribution"

[GodHelpUsAll2]

161. I rest my case

[sangh0]

162. There was a case?

I think you flatter yourself. All you've got is a personal attack. Come back when you've got some achievement under your belt, son.

BTW, did you read the links, or are you afraid you might learn something.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

165. LOL

Bwwwwwwaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[GodHelpUsAll2]

167. Bye Bye

Sangho on ignore. Don't have time for childish people that follow others around because they can't get attention any other way! Nite Nite little one.

[sangh0]

168. Great

Now I can respond to your posts, and you can't read or refute them.


That'll show me

[lojasmo]

206. And over and over, and over and over. (ad nauseum) N/T

[Forkboy]

178. lol

[JVS]

97. Yeah cause Kerry sure kicked their asses

[ooglymoogly]

14. i was not a deniack but

i think dean comported himself well. i would support him as democratic head. of everyone else he would be my choice.

[zippy890]

46. I agree with you

of the lot, he's my choice as well

[liberalpragmatist]

15. During the primaries, this became DeanForAmerica2.0

There was a large contingent of Clarkies though, as well as a vocal minority of Kucinich-backers and a small chorus of Kerry and Edwards supporters.

There tended to be many flame wars between Deanies and Clarkies/Kerryites/Edwardsians. The latter 3 tended to be okay with the others (Clark, Kerry, and Edwards all appealed to somewhat similar constituencies). Then there was a very vocal anti-Kerry segment.

The place was brutal during the primaries. I stopped coming here for a long time.

Personally, I was always a Kerry supporter, although I had Clark as a strong number 2 and liked Edwards a lot too. Towards the end of December I actually became quite comfortable with the idea of Dean as the nominee. However, while I liked Dean and thought he was exciting and even was dismissive of the idea that he couldn't win (although in hindsight I don't think he could have) I never thought he'd be a very effective President, hence why I supported Kerry.

But it was brutal. There were some who just didn't like Dean much, some who really hated him, and a HUGE contingent of DU'ers who were enthralled by him. It got messy.

[madfloridian]

18. It was an organized thing.

It was not us. Trust me, until it is admitted to and brought out, there won't be much peace.

We were attacked in an organized way, that is the truth. Many of us are not here anymore, and many folks at the DFA blog will not come to DU to post at all because of the attacks.

Honesty is the best policy.

[liberalpragmatist]

20. Whatever - I stay out of it

I never got involved in any of the flame wars or anything. It pretty much turned me off. Still does. I'm not interested in after-the-fact circular firing squads or in destroying each other.

[madfloridian]

23. I am not either, but I stand up for what is right.

When a whole group of people knows what went down and why, and still deny it....then it is bigger than Dean or Deaniacs.

I never start it, but I will stand for our rights.

[sangh0]

34. YOU stayed out of it??

Now there's a laugh

I never start it, but I will stand for our rights.

Right, your daily Dean threads didn't start until after the convention.

:crazy:

[greenohio]

30. Help the clueless here.

Until what is admitted? That the moderators at DU conspired to remove deaniacs?

You were attacked in an organized way? What do you mean by that?

Share some of this honesty you speak of.

[arcos]

54. Clarkies and Edwardsians weren't very fond of each other either...

Especially when they started battling in the southern primaries and Oklahoma. And when Clark dropped out, he endorsed Kerry right away...

[TeacherCreature]

197. Here's a test; How many Kerry supporters were driven away?

By the supposedly obnoxious Deaniacs?

Not a one, i'll reckon.

Can't say that about the reverse, any way you choose to define it.

[rhyfeddu]

210. THANK YOU, liberalpragmatist...

...for actually trying to answer the original question, for those of us not around during the primaries.

If some of the above was a mini re-creation - we didn't miss much, except adults sticking their tongues out at each other...

:crazy:

[madfloridian]

19. Oh, and this is flamebait.

I am getting some clues now.

[GRLMGC]

21. no its not

I don't understand the controversy. You're being paranoid. I understand that people attack you. I just don't know why that is. I wanted ideas.

[madfloridian]

24. Paranoid? No, that is when it is imagined.

All of this is too coincidental. Hey, guy, you don't bother me, I am so so used to it.

[GRLMGC]

26. Jesus christ!

I'm not attacking anyone! I wanted to know what the deal was. I think its really irrational that people get so worked up about someone that doesn't seem that controversial to me. I don't know what it is that he has done that has made people dislike him. As far as I can see, he's a decent spokesman. Oh and I'm not a guy.

[seafey]

28. Maybe it's coincidental because

lots of people just happen to have the same opinion. I call lots of people shady- I honestly didn't know it was some kind of "code word" for Dean- look at my number of posts, for cryin out loud.

[Padraig18]

25. If you weren't hear for the primaries, ...

... all I can say is that it was as ugly as anything political you're likely to see inside the same party...

[madfloridian]

27. Why don't you read some of the legislation our Dems helped pass?

Just this week-end. Read about the disabled on Medicare who won't be so disabled anymore.

Read about the Omnibus.

When you are this worried about attacks on Dean instead of being worried how the congress is voting, then I worry.

[GRLMGC]

31. I am worried about that

I am just curious is all. You need to stop attacking me. You're really no better than the people who attack you.

[greenohio]

38. This is what I meant by my post.

I think dislike for the Deaniacs is confused with dislike for him. There is really a chip there. And they are mad.

[madfloridian]

39. Yes, I am better because I am defending myself.

Our country is in trouble, and I am being put in the spotlight now. Hmm..mmm
Is this an organized thing? I wonder.

[GRLMGC]

You're putting yourself in the spotlight

All you have to say is "I don't appreciate getting attacked for my support for Dean. It's irrational" I have not attacked you. You are attacking me for asking a question. You keep attacking me, making YOURSELF the center of attention. There is no conspiracy against you. NONE!

[sangh0]

44. That's why Dean is controversial

because many of his supporters attack anyone who criticizes Dean, and then they claim they're being victimized when someone responds in kind.

[sangh0]

32. And this is why Dean is controversial

It's impossible to defend him on some issues, and so some of his supporters attack other Dems, as if that makes Dean any better than he is.

[madfloridian]

40. you guys win. i can't fight it alone.

Dean is bad, he is shady.

[Selwynn]

42. Everything is controversial here to somebody. :)

It's called being a huge community. There are going to be more points of disagreement than agreement.

[Demobrat]

45. He tried to steal the nomination that was rightfully Kerry's.

It was Kerry's turn, and Dean tried to jump to the head of the line.

[Sandra_Deaniac2]

187. What's this?

"waiting in line for your turn to run for President??" SAY WHAT?!

Since when do ppl queue up and take a run when it is the appointed time? Just who determines who's to be at the head of the line, anyway? That's what I wanna know!

[Demobrat]

188. Since when?

Well...just think of Kerry as the Democratic Bob Dole.

[davhill]

190. Gebhart was in line longer

Kerry was selected because he had the Commander in Chief credentials because of Nam. They had to go to the Swift Boaters to fight that.

[Demobrat]

191. That's true. He must have been pissed he didn't get veep.

After his kamakazi act, and all.

[Guaranteed]

47. Some are afraid. nt

[Uzybone]

48. I like Dean a lot

Its some of his maniacal supporters I dont like.

[madfloridian]

53. If you call us maniacal, could you be specific about who?

It is a rather ugly term to bander about.

[sangh0]

59. It's against the rules to name names.

.

[madfloridian]

55. Again, I agree. Let's all agree. Shady and controversial

Ok.

[Endangered Specie]

57. One word...

YYYYEEEEAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!

[wyldwolf]

62. He isn't. His more rabid supporters are, though..

...the ones who find it perfectly acceptable to trash other candidates and the Democratic party as a whole yet play the victim when the tables are turned...

...the ones who repeatedly rehash the primaries with old articles, paint the entire Dem party with a broad brush, make bold threats about how they're going to do this and that to the DLC, etc.,...

...the ones who hike their legs on such threads and whine when non-Deaniacs come in and defend whatever the Deaniacs are bitching about at that given moment.

... the ones who conveniently ignore Dean's non-progressive record and hold him up as some liberal saviour.

Howard Dean the centrist politician is about as good as they come. Howard Dean the failed mythological left-wing liberal hero is a tragedy - and he can thank those "Dean or nobody" Deaniacs for that.

[madfloridian]

63. Would calling someone "rabid" be considered not so nice?

Just wondering.

[wyldwolf]

66. I don't give a rat's ass if it is nice or not

...the term fits. why not delve into some of the Dean threads and preach to the Deaniacs who play "not so nice."

Just more of the "victim" mentality again.

[madfloridian]

69. I am a maniac, but I am not a victim at all.

I am proud of who I am. I see the party voting in these horrible things, and you guys can only make fun of me.
That does not compute.

[wyldwolf]

72. Didn't say you were a victim. But you do act like one whenever...

...someone trashes Dean in response to you trashing someone else.

[madfloridian]

76. I don't trash. I present positions others don't like.

I gore the oxen that need to be gored. So shoot me.

[wyldwolf]

89. but you get offended when your Ox is gored right back.

[madfloridian]

92. I don't have an ox to be gored.

I am not an ideologue. You want the party the way it is, you got it.

[wyldwolf]

98. yes you do. It's name is Howard Dean

[madfloridian]

116. I just apologized for criticizing party leaders.

I won't do it anymore. I know we must respect their wishes and their leadership, trust them to vote in our best interests.

I will not criticize the party again, I was wrong.

[lojasmo]

101. Not nice. Stupid and inapropriate.

Like calling somebody with whom you don't agree "retarded"

[Sandra_Deaniac2]

189. **ahem**

"Howard Dean the centrist politician is about as good as they come. Howard Dean the failed mythological left-wing liberal hero is a tragedy - and he can thank those "Dean or nobody" Deaniacs for that."

I have NEVER had an actual conversation where a Dean supporter said "Dean's a leftie liberal hero! Woo hoo! He's our liberal saviour!!". EVERY single one I've ever talked to said something to the effect of: "he's fiscally conservative but socially liberal, and that's exactly what I like" or "he's not as far left as I like, but I trust him to TELL IT LIKE HE SEES IT" or "he's too liberal on social issues, but I trust him to balance the budget".

NO ONE I've spoken too about Dean ever had blinders on about Dean.......except those who were predisposed to hate him.

Oh, I was:

1) Dean Meetup host for my county
2) DEC member
3) With many other Deaniacs, worked 14 hrs a day/7 days a week for the KERRY campaign when it was clear he was going to be the nominee. I even took unpaid leave from my job to do it.
4) now working to help rebuild the DEM party in my county (with many other Deaniacs, assorted Clarkies, etc)---it is in tatters after the election

Yup, no "playing the victim" here, no sir!

Be careful lest you fall into the "trap" of painting people with that same broad brush that the anti-Dean folks like to accuse Dean of doing.

[madfloridian]

65. I am a maniac. If I admit it, will that end the attacks?

I am a maniac.

[wyldwolf]

67. madfloridian, you are one of the ones who continuously attacks first

... by positioning Dean and his supporters in opposition to the DLC and the DNC as a whole.

If you want the attacks to end you can start with your own posting habits.

[madfloridian]

68. So you are telling me what I should post or not?

I think it is past time to let the party keep selling us down the river. What do you think?

[wyldwolf]

71. no. I'm telling you if you want *A* to happen then you must do *B*

If you want to see more attacks on Dean, then by all means continue posting your inflammatory anti-DNC/Clinton/DLC/ posts.

[madfloridian]

74. The DLC is corporately funded to the extent they care nothing about us.

And I am supposed to hush? Why don't you just ignore my posts?

[wyldwolf]

78. three points...

The DLC is corporately funded to the extent they care nothing about us

Proof?

And I am supposed to hush?

Of course not. No one has said that.

Why don't you just ignore my posts?

Why don't you just ignore the replies?

[madfloridian]

70. This thread is very sad. I think it is a shame.

Our country is falling apart, and it is OUR fault?

[wyldwolf]

75. What is sad is you believe Dean is the answer

...and, thus, feel that it's perfectly acceptable to trash the politics of others while whining when someone turns it around on you.

[madfloridian]

77. I don't trash. I present positions others don't like.

I question and I critize. Others should do it.

[wyldwolf]

80. ok... then people question and criticize Dean in response...

[madfloridian]

82. Not like calling us maniacs. No, that is name-calling.

I do not name-call. If this is the party you want, then good for you. You got it.

[wyldwolf]

83. but you do name-call

...you may not use one word descriptions and such, but you do make insulting generalizations...

[madfloridian]

85. Show me, my friend.

Show me. Betcha I never called anyone a maniac.

[wyldwolf]

87. You're correct. You never called anyone a maniac. Was that your point?

...or do you want to see some of your generalizations?

The DLC is corporately funded to the extent they care nothing about us... the DLC has been so dismissive and insulting to those of us who are anti-war... why are we now a one-party country? ...

[sangh0]

103. No, but she suggested the thread-starter was part of some

kind of organized effort.

Simply because he asked a question

[sangh0]

104. And she has made sweeping generalizations of dems

and moderates, and centrists

[madfloridian]

109. That is a true statement, but I won't say it anymore.

I have a lot of specifics, but I won't post them anymore. You have showed me, AP, that I was wrong. I will be very careful in the future not to criticize any of the party leaders. It was very wrong of me.

We need to be unified behind them, whatever they want to do.

[wyldwolf]

117. prove it.

[madfloridian]

118. Oh, no. You are right. I was wrong.

I rescind the statement. I was wrong to question. You are right,and the party is right.

[wyldwolf]

120. just prove it. Give yourself some credibility

[madfloridian]

123. Oh,no, I am so sorry.

I told you I took back the statement. I made even more than that, but now I take them all back. I was very wrong to criticize the party and its leaders. I really was.

They are doing a good job, and I will no longer be critical.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

130. Oh, no! Please don't think that. I realized I was wrong.

I should not have questioned.

[wyldwolf]

136. and there it is again.

Running out of legitimate arguments.

[madfloridian]

139. I am so sorry I angered you, wyldwolf.

I won't do it again.

[wyldwolf]

141. Angered? No. Amused? Yes... but not as much as I used to be...

.. it's all so predictable now.

[madfloridian]

144. I know. I won't do that anymore.

I will be very careful now.

[wyldwolf]

149. ... or at least come up with a better floor show.. learn some new material

..I feel like I'm watching reruns.

[sandnsea]

73. See, I have self control!

A whole thread where I could have ranted and raved and moaned and groaned, and I said nothing!

O8)

[madfloridian]

79. So the gist of this thread is that I am not to post criticism of the DLC.

Got it. I understand.

[wyldwolf]

81. no, the gist is be prepared to have people defend what they believe in

... whether it be DLC, the whole Dem party, Bill Clinton, or anything people may feel passionate about... honestly, were you one of those kids who hit other kids and were surprised when they hit you back?

[madfloridian]

86. So.....do not investigate sacred cows.

Got it. Don't criticize, don't analyze, don't investigate. Just keep my mouth shut.

[wyldwolf]

88. yes, by all means. Just be prepared to get it right back...

..you know, people aren't starting threads about Dean and his positions on Sierra Blanca, Yucca Mountain, his attempt to make VT a corporate tax haven comparable to Bermuda, his NRA rating, etc...

[madfloridian]

90. Yes, they do. This is your thread now.

This thread is yours. Not worth it.

I know all his stances, as we followed the campaign from the day it started.

[wyldwolf]

100. show me some of those threads since the primaries...

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

106. I realize that. I was just giving her an opportunity to prove it...

[madfloridian]

124. I told you I apologized for being critical of the party.

I should never have done that, and Dean should not criticize them either. They are our leaders, and we should support them unquestioningly.

[sangh0]

156. That's not what you should be apologizing for

You might consider apologizing for starting divisive threads on a near daily basis

And you might consider apologizing for attacking them dems for not fighting, and then you give up when you're challenged.

[Pepperbelly]

84. Who dislikes him?

And how could they?

I was a Clark supporter and I also liked Howard Dean.

[XemaSab]

93. Opinion

I'm a Deaniac, I adore Dean....

I strongly suspect that people don't like Dean because when he speaks, he appeals to emotion as much as logic.

Some other candidates, such as Kerry and Gore, appeal far more to logic, IMHO. Edwards I think did both, but in a less overt way than Dean; you look at him and just get a warm and fuzzy vibe from him. Clinton had the same way about him; he's a smart man but he has an emotional appeal about him too that makes it hard for me to be very critical of him and some of the things he did while he was president. I've been to see Clinton speak twice, and he's a moving speaker, but very wordy, and his speeches take LONG JOURNEYS through an emotional landscape of Hope and Sorrow and Thoughtfulness and Humor and eventually wind up back at Hope. (In real life I think Edwards and Clinton are pit bulls, but I digress).

I think Bush appeals to emotion far more than logic. I think Reagan did the same, but Bush 41 was more of a logical person, even though he tried to simplify things for the public, and this is a big part of why he didn't make reelection in 92. Dole was 90% logic and 10% World War II. ("Logic" in this posting means plain statements that appeal to logic, even if they're a pack of lies.)

I think it's part of the "Would you want to have a beer with the dude?" vibe.

I think Dean's appeal to strong emotions worries some people, and it's good for people to think and question these things.

I read his position papers before I ever heard him speak, and they're terrific, they appeal to the logical side of my brain that would not be entirely satisfied with the sloganeering and sound bites that Dean uses when he speaks. That sounds really negative, but he has a very simple (occasionally overly simple, as some have pointed out here) and direct manner of speaking that's designed to fire up the audience. But this is why some people think he's a wingnut, and some people think he's the Second Coming.

I think once people are spazzed by that, there are in fact things in his record that are open to criticism. Personally, I think there's way more things in his record that are progressive and generally awesome, like providing healthcare to the people of the Vermont. Even his positions that I'm personally ambivalent about, such as leaving gun control to the states, I still respect his opinions on, by sheer virtue of the fact that he HAS strong opinions that he can explain and explain well when questioned. None of that "I'm for it except for the times when I'm against it" language that even Clinton was wont to use. But again, my trust of him and respect for him are partly logical and partly emotional.

He's shot off his mouth a few times and said some things that another, more experienced candidate might not have said, but I think that's due to the fact that he's not as coached as a lot of the politicians out there. He hasn't got memorized pabulum designed to offend nobody and challenge nothing. He thinks for himself.

Basically, I guess once you get a positive impression of him it's easy for that to be reinforced, and once you get a negative impression of him, that easily gets reinforced too.

[janx]

96. Dean appeals to American history and to democracy.

It would be a sad turn of events if that didn't arouse some emotion in people.

In any case, he maintains that he's basically responding to what he found shortly after he started campaigning.

I can't agree that Dean is "emotion over facts." That's a common false dichotomy in current political lingo. Dean had plenty of facts. Some people just didn't want to hear them.

[XemaSab]

151. I didn't quite say...

....he appeals to emotion over facts. I think I said something about there being as much emotion as logic. And I think it's a *MOUNTAIN* of both, whereas most candidates have a small molehill of one or the other.

I think the best candidates use both.

I'm thinking about whether I think logic and emotion are a false dichotomy... mmm... I think Bush is full of shit and in the debates his answers were SO EMPTY, but people voted for him for completely irrational, emotional reasons which overrode any logical analysis of the situation. However, the presence of emotional language does not preclude the simultaneous appeal to facts. So you're right.

I really, really, really like Dean. I have never seen a politician in my time with the power to inspire people like that.

I was trying to explain for the first poster why I think some people don't like him, based on the common DU criticisms of him, but my own criticism is from a position of immense respect.

[madfloridian]

108. Dean is controversial, and he should not have criticized the party.

He was wrong to criticize the DLC and the other democrats. He should not do that anymore. We as his supporters should not do that anymore. It was wrong. We should respect and support all our leaders.

I will be very careful from now on, not to criticize.

[NYCGirl]

110. Well, I see all the usual suspects have been rounded up.

A Casablanca reference usually lightens the mood, but nothing will help this thread.

[GRLMGC]

111. I should have known better

I apologize for asking the question. I really do.

[paulk]

208. but it's been an education

hasn't it?

:)

[madfloridian]

112. But I learned a valuable lesson.

I should not criticize the party leaders. I am sure Dean won't do it anymore either.

We need to unify and follow the leaders of our party.

[mmonk]

113. Dean was the first to get me excited

about the primaries because he seemed to be the main one taking it to bush early on, especially the Iraq war while so many dems seemed to be equivacating.

[Cha]

119. Dean did do that...

but some would rather be burned at the stake than acknowledge any good that Dean has done for our Country and our PARTY!

:dem: I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK! :dem:

[madfloridian]

125. Dean was wrong to criticize the party, and so was I.

I will be very respectful now. I have learned my lesson. They are our leaders and deserve to be followed unquestioningly.

[Individualist]

126. Absolutely not wrong!

You have nothing to apologize for, madfloridian. Don't let the control freaks get to you.

[madfloridian]

135. No, they are right.

We need to all have the same message, just like the GOP does. If we criticize we hurt the party.

Really, I should not have been critical. We need to unify behind our leaders now...whichever way they choose to go.

[Individualist]

140. When criticism is called for,

it should never be suppressed. I, for one, will never adhere to the doctrine of "my party right or wrong", nor will I march in lockstep. When praise is due, I gladly give it. When criticism is due, I'll not withold it. I certainly won't suppress my view because of people who have control issues (I find the ignore feature a nice convenience :)).

[Cha]

133. Don't forget Dean's ego...he has such

a HUGE EGO! All he cares about is himself..doesn't give a damn for our Country! ;-)


:dem: I WANT MY COUNTRY BACKKKKKKKK! :dem:

[madfloridian]

137. Right, he needs to calm down, and do the right thing.

He really has done the party a lot of harm by being critical. I am glad I learned my lesson in time before I destroyed the party. I am sure he will learn as well.

We need to get over it all.

[Individualist]

146. ROFL!

[JHBowden]

121. One word: Clarkies

Everything was fine until they swarmed the place! :+

[wyldwolf]

131. yeah! The Deanies were in control! They'd succeeded in shouting down...

..everyone else and then the Clarkies came in and gave them a dose of their own medicine!

[madfloridian]

138. Oh, my, such anger. You need to be like me.

I am over my anger. I now understand that the party comes first, and we don't need to be critical.

[wyldwolf]

143. No, like I said above - amusement

[madfloridian]

145. So glad you are feeling less anger.

I am glad I could amuse you. I have learned a valuable lesson today which I will carry with me.

[wyldwolf]

147. actually feeling no anger... just amusement... and...

..I'm glad you learned your valuable lesson.

[JNelson6563]

172. MF you are a riot!

And to see some of the old sockies being brought out just for lil ol' you! How precious is that??

Funny how some can't quite grasp sarcasm, isn't it?

Cheers--
Julie

[Forkboy]

179. "old sockies"

:)

[JVS]

170. Fucking Locusts!

[TeacherCreature]

196. Some of those Clarkies were almost certainly wolves in sheeps'

Clothing--the more honest ones were not all that bad...but they were dupes in a Stop-Dean effort backed by DLC and the Clintons.

Bit their unfortunate tactics also paved the way for the more poisonous regime of the "electables"..and that is when things really got bad here.

[madfloridian]

204. Yes, most not aware at all. Good post.

You have a succinct way of saying things. :thumbsup:

[wyldwolf]

215. Tell me you're not saying...

..that the Clarkies on DU were put here by the DLC and the Clintons!

bwahahahahahaha!

I can just hear Bill now...

"We've got to infiltrate Democratic Underground and stop the Dean movement..."

[michaelwb]

201. Clarkies?

I thought it was when Joe-mentum swept DU....

Joe-mentum: Like Montezuma's Revenge only less desirable.

[Cheswick2.0]

174. Because like the Clinton haters, there are some people

who need a scapegoat for their own misery. Woke up with a headache, must be Dean's fault.


Dean is not controversial. His detractors are. The man is trying to rebuild the party and give it back to the people...damn his evil plan.

[mzmolly]

186. Ha!

:hi:

[mzmolly]

180. Because he represents change and change scares some.

:hi:

[greenohio]

181. Or maybe he is more of the same running under the guise of change.

And that pisses people off. The man is a self described fiscal conservative who supported NAFTA (you know the biggest corporate give away of our lifetimes.) Now the Mayor of VT and his groupies tear down the party leadership saying that Dean isn't in bed with corporations but they are.

Dean would have more friends if he and his followers would just quit making enemies. You like Dean fine. Lay off Clinton, the DLC, and our leadership. Dean is just a mad carbon copy.

[madfloridian]

182. I told you I apologized for being critical of the party.

Did I tell you he was governor of VT, not mayor?

Why do you only criticize Dean for NAFTA, at least he was pointing out the flaws. Why did Rubin attack him and tell him to back off NAFTA or no party support?

Why?

I told you I would not criticize the party anymore, that I would be a good Democrat. Now you are even madder at me.

Why are trying to make us all so angry?

[greenohio]

184. I'm not trying to make you angry, that just happens.

I answered your question as best I could on my thread on NAFTA.

[TeacherCreature]

195. I think you know why they behave in this way.

It because they seek to divide and weaken the Democratic party and drive any trace of progressive and constructive thinking from this website..

Dean is committed to renewing the party at all levels through DFA and grassroots efforts

That scares the defeatists and other enemies of progress in America,

So they come here to bash the only people whop might actually have a constructive alternative to their vaporized myth of "electability."

Sore losers and bullies all.

[mzmolly]

183. I always considered Dean a "fighting centrist" and I haven't an issue with

that personally. In fact, I like Bill Clinton, I like Al Franken, I like most Democrats frankly.

Regarding NAFTA, I'll take his support of NAFTA to Kucinich's support of the Anti-Choice movement, or Nader's not paying the homeless, union busting and taking money from John O'Neill any damn day.

BTW, Dean did change his mind about NAFTA when he spoke to people effected by the lack of enforcing the agreement. He said NAFTA must be changed/enforced and that we must have international standards that would eliminate many of the issues were having with it today. Dean also took much criticism for being to far to the left on Trade. Go figure.

*credit goes to Molly Ivins with the term "fighting centrist" in regard to Dean. ;)

[killbotfactory]

192. Because he could have won the primaries

Short answer: Because some people, while fighting for their preferred candidate, drank the anti-Dean kool-aid and the effects haven't worn off.

Long Answer: He created a huge fundraising machine that relied on ordiary people and was trouncing the more "electable" candidates for a while. That required supporters of other candidates to make it their mission to take out Dean. It's easier to trash somebody when you convince yourself that you are right. And now, a year later, Dean bashers still believe their own anti-Dean propaganda and won't let it go.

Also, Dean wasn't an ideologue, and had positions to the left and right of some democrats. That made him ideological "unpure" for some, who just could not understand how other democrats could support him and were convinced he was pulling the wool over the eyes of fellow democrats.

And of course, he wasn't afraid to call out democrats for their bullshit votes during chimpy's riegn of incompetence. That got a lot of people hackles up. How dare he criticize the party and other candidates for doing stupid things?! Of course, during this time he was being called a left wing hippie who would give the UN a veto over our national security, the next McGovern, etc... When that didn't really work with the dem base, well then, he was being dishonest about his stances because all the lies people were spouting about him were actually false! What a sleazy character this Dean!

[mzmolly]

193. Excellent summary.

:hi:

[lojasmo]

199. Fantastic synposis

<sarcasm>If only Deaon would learn MF's lesson and stop criticising the democratic party </sarcasm>

[madfloridian]

203. But the problem is I don't learn well. The Omnibus made me mad.

I have a long-term memory problem. I really am trying to be good, but voting on the bill with the abortion part in it...well, it did not go down well with me.

I notice that the so-called progressive candidates, like the ones at Progressive Majority, et al....voted against it.

They were not struck dead...no lightning bolt hit them.

:evilgrin:

[lojasmo]

205. I was surprised IIRC

Mark Dayton voted for it, IIRC. I guess you pick your fights. :shrug:

[WI_DEM]

198. it's more a supporter vs. supporter thing

I view Dean as a mainstream democrat but one who will fight for principles. I see nothing in his record which would outrage any spectrum of the party. What it is, I think, is that many of us Dean supporters, or Deaniacs, were highly enthusiastic about him and there used to be a ton of posts about him which some other candidate supporters felt were excessive--even though nobody was stopping them from posting about their candidate. They used to call this place DEAN Underground. Though today in numbers I would say there are more Clark supporters here.

[TeacherCreature]

200. Many Dean supporters were driven away.

I remember it well..."Stop Dean Movements" and the rest...

[madfloridian]

202. There was more to it than that.

It really needs to come out, and we all need to be honest. Then there can be healing. But it won't come out, and there won't be healing for many...they are not here anymore.

[lojasmo]

207. Maybe they should be un-banned

Now that it has turned out that they were right. (wait for it...)

[janx]

209. 10...9...8...

[Dr Ron]

211. For me it was Medicare

I'm not sure there is much point in bring this all up again, but there were many people for a variety of reasons who started out supporting him but moved on to other candidates. I don't intend to get into Dean bashing here, as it is more important we stick together against Bush. However, someone did ask for an explanation, and I suspect that those who primareily hung out at pro-Dean sites might not be aware of how others viewed him.

Initially Dean was getting the most attention for his criticism of Bush, and did a great job of it. (We must not forget that he was not the only one doing so, as he would later claim.) I backed Dean based largely on his opposition to Bush and the war.

The turning point was when the Medicare issue came up. You can believe all the spin you want, but the fact of the matter is that basically Dean was guilty as charged.

I can accept someone being wrong in the past and somebody changing their mind.. If Dean had simply said he was wrong and gave a clear answer as to his current positions on Medicare, I might have continued to support him. I even discussed this issue with the Dean campaign's health care issues person (I forget his actual title).

Instead of coming clean, Dean outright lied about the positions he held in the past. He played games over his current position (not cutting Medicare, but only admitting when pressed he would cut the rate of growth--which is a cut in an aging society), and also lied about votes cast by his opponents.

Not only did he turn me off with this, I believe this led to Dean's more serious problems with the press down the road. Some of the journalists covering Dean on this issue did make a point of the dishonest way he responded, questioning if this first case of him facing adversity was a clue as to more serious character flaws.

Another issue which caused many of us to lose further respect for Dean was the Rove style attack he launched when Kerry became a threat. He distorted Kerry's voting record in exactly the same way Rove did. For example, even though Dean and Kerry had virtually exactly the same view at the time of the Iraq war resolution vote (to authorize force under certain situations but not actually vote to go to war), Dean took advantage of not having had to cast a vote to attack Kerry.

In contrast, look at how Clark handled this. Dean, Kerry, and Clark all had virtually the same position on Iraq. While Dean played politics, Clark told the truth when he said that the vote made a poor litmus test as to one's position on the war.

[madfloridian]

212. Well, my friend, bottom line, we are there now.

I am glad the ones who voted to give up their power were not playing politics....aren't you? No politics there....nothing there. (sarcasm)

[Yuugal]

213. I drank the kool-aid

I remember at the start of the primary season thinking this time these guys are doing it right, showcasing lots of issues and new faces and not cutting each other to ribbons as hard as usual. I remember praying to myself that, whatever may befall us, our party wouldn't run a northeast lib for the top spot. That would be as dumb as the reps going with Pat Buchanan or Pat Robinson.

Bush was lying constantly and making mistake after mistake. All I thought it would take was to capitalize on this by throwing up a Clinton-lite ticket and walking into office. Looking around the table I saw the two guys it logically was gonna come down to: Clark and Edwards, right? RIGHT?
Nope. I had my first fear we could lose this year when Dean did well in NH. I actually breathed a sigh of relief, and maybe drank some more kool-aid, when the YEEEEEEHAAAHH! thing happened. I was happy, actually. I was on the side of those who said we should run a southern ticket and make things as easy on ourselves as possible. Clark, from the south, a former General, 1st in his class at west point. Yeah, this guy will do. I still think Clark-Edwards would have won.

The northeast lib went on to lose. Sure, Kerry came on hard the last month, but overall the campaign wasn't that good. Windsurfing, snowboarding, taking the whole month of august off while the swift boat liars for Jesus pounded him like a cheap steak, early convention, somehow simultaneously sending me 10 letters a day the last week of the election begging for cash while ending up with 45 million unspent. UGH..... and then worst of all. Not being visible as the votes were counted. Promise made but so far not kept. All day I've been thinking about the people who were first time voters and had faith we could effect change. Will they ever trust us again? If they vote green party next time I wont blame them. Heck, if we make the same mistake in 08 and run Hillary, I'm going to vote green.

[Nlighten1]

214. Stop feeding the TROLL!

You know exactly who I am talking aboot.


Stop it.