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Theologically, why did Hill have any problem with abortion?

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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:26 AM
Original message
Theologically, why did Hill have any problem with abortion?
apparentely he was a former Presbyterian minister. Fundamentalist Presbyterians are Calvinists to my knowledge. I'm very very sure he wasn't a liberal or mainline one, so that would make him a Calvinist. Therefore wouldn't he believe that it's the fate of the supposed babies being murdered anyway, and that they would go to heaven or hell because their location was already determined? Why should he care about abortion, it was meant to happen anyway. I guess it was also his fate to end up wherever he is now, and I doubt he's happy about it.
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pasadenaboy Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. a potential answer.
that's a very simplified view of Calvinism, or to be more specific with what you are referring to, pre-destination. Even though a fundementalist who believes in pre destination may think that God is in control of everything, and ordained the baby to go to heaven, he would still believe it is his duty to do what he knows is right. He would most likely believe that God often uses human instruments to accomplish justice. So, he would see the stopping of what he would see as child murder as an act in accordance with God's will and God's plan. He would most likely say that God ordained him to be there in that place and time for that specific purpose.

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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. There are two Presbyterian Churchs today...
Presbyterian Church USA-mainstream Presbyterians, liberal politically, 2.5 million members

Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)-splinter group of rightwingers who deserted the main church in the early 1980's. They are basically an anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-divorce cult of approximately 300,000 members.

Hill was a devout PCA preacher. One of his buddies in the cult here in Jackson, Mississippi, recently compared the new gay Episcopal bishop with a child molester. These people are warped and have no connection with any serious religion in America today.

Please don't tar Presbyterians (or Christians in general) with the actions of this disgusting vermin.
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I knew PCA was nutty
but not at that level. sheesh.
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graham67 Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. I left the PCUSA last year....
after 25 years. Maybe it's a local/regional thing, but I didn't find it to be at all liberal and really quite intolerant.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. I can't get into the warped (or otherwise) mindset of these murderers
but imagine if, as part of background checks, gun buyers were asked if they thought the unborn in a pregant woman were a person?
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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. I don't know from Calvinism. . .
but as a lifelong Catholic (albeit a lousy one cuz I just don't find it relevant and you don't want me to start) I don't know it it's that so much as the "if you could have killed Hitler" argument. That is, this guy really believed that by killing this doctor, he would save innocent lives. If you truly believe that abortion is murder, in the same way that taking a gun and killing your neighbor is murder, then you have a moral right to stop it, even if the only way you can do it is by killing. I'm not a proponent of this theory, at all, so please don't flame me - but there is a twisted logic to that.

I'm definitely pro-choice in that I believe it should be legal. Period. And I really, really, REALLY wish that the pro-life (anti-abortionists, whatever) would spend just half the resources/energy/money making abortion UNNECESSARY that they spend making it ILLEGAL. Imagine all that being put into adoptions, or helping pregnant women, etc.

Buttttt, I also have trouble with the throw-away society that we have become. I am troubled when abortion is used as a form of birth control. I am troubled when women have abortions upon finding that their baby is not the gender they hoped for. But yet abortion-on-demand does not come with conditions. Nor should it. And yet, I STILL remain troubled.

I am also troubled when I hear those who proclaim rights for animals as sensient beings but are not bothered by the death of fetuses during abortion. Even if you do not believe that a fetus is a human being, surely it is still an organism or an animal, at the very least. I do not understand how one can defend the rights of one but not the other.

Abortion is a tricky, tricky issue (well, duh!) I mourn the death of any human being, especially one who is a victim of the barbaric custom of capital punishment.

There are no answers, I've decided. But if one must err, one must err I think, on the side of privacy and a woman's right to control her own body. But, as a society, we must also do everything we can to make that choice a rare one, by providing education and birth control and support for pregnant women. That we do not is the ultimate abortion.

eileen from OH
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well said, eileen from OH. I really don't understand how

people can be worried about animal rights or oppose capital punishment and have no concerns about abortion. There's more logic to the positions of those who oppose abortion but are fine with capital punishment, as those who are executed have been tried and found guilty, as Paul Hill was. But you're correct that more needs to be done to make abortion unnecessary, or at least rarely necessary, while protecting women. Abortion is the great moral issue of our time.
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Uroboros Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. If one is religious..hell if one is a caring human being
how can one consider capital punishment OK, but have some issue with abortion? I got to think there is even less logic in that. Especially when this opinion is held by someone who is a Christian. (did they forget what Christ did when the people tried to stone the prostitute for example.)

First of all let me say that I don't think abortion should be used as a birth control method. But of course we live in a society dominated by religions who preach that sex is bad, sex is only for procreation, birth control of any kind is not allowed, etc..

But going back to my original point. Capital punishment is nothing more then succumbing to the basic human instinct of revenge. Plain and simple. Purely a primal emotion. The person being executed believed he or she was right to commit the act we are now executing them for. And we think we are just as right in killing this person. (How some people can sit back and watch a life being snuffed out in front of them; I've never been able to understand.)

To wonder why someone would not be against abortion but against capital punishment implies that that same thought process goes into both acts. When certainly they don't I don't believe a woman having an abortion gets any sort of satisfaction on killing her unborn baby. Often this decision is not made lightly and after much anguish. That's VERY different then state sponsored killing. Which often takes years after the crime.

In a perfect world neither act would take place. But the two are not the same. And one can reluctantly be for one, but against the other.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's an extra-Biblical belief
The New Testament says little or nothing of real importance on the subject. The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) says stuff along the lines of 'if someone beats a woman so that she miscarries, he must pay her family xyz amount of money/cattle'. Most or all branches of Judaism okay abortion when it is a free (but nonetheless tragic) choice of the woman.

The 'traditional Christian' view is to ignore all the indirect things said about e.g. miscarriages as a result of violence. These folks then claim that abortion is evidently murder, and thus obviously prohibited under the Fifth Commandment. It is, of course, a selective reading and problematic in the face of the evidence of the whole of the Bible.

So the real theological question is where the basis is for this selective and recalcitrant application of the Bible. And the best guess where to look is in the usual place extra-Biblical beliefs tend to come from- the religion(s) of the society in question preceding its Christianization.

It's somewhat difficult to argue what ancient beliefs abortion touches upon. It's only relatively recently (maybe 150-200 years) that it has been something available to the masses as a medical procedure, so the beliefs involved must be tangential but incredibly important.

The people who harbor the anti-abortion dogma most deeply tend, if I have read widely and deeply enough, not to be overwhelmingly of one or the other gender or cluster ethnicly. They partition somewhat by religion and somewhat by denomination. They tend to be traditional if not reactionary in many ways and generally selfidentify as religious rather than by ethnic group. And most of them come from agricultural communities, often at some remove- as townspeople, or second generation from the farm. A lot of them claim to be converts of a sort to anti-abortionism, saying their motivation is disgust at some apparent betrayal of social norms and ethics, or some kind of aesthetic revulsion. I don't feel certain of this, but it seems to me that they tend to come from the sort of backgrounds that people who claim life-long anti-abortion views do. IOW, maybe they're really much the same type of people after all.

Personally, I think the consistent but broad connection to agriculture and religion points to where the view originates. Agricultural societies tend to develop curious, religiously colored, practices and beliefs around the crop cycle and the fertility cycles of the crop plants. These get extended and mingled with what is observed and guessed of animal and human life and fertility cycles. The associated religious practices tend to get lumped together in cultural anthropology and theology as 'fertility cultism'. They tend to have specialized priests and ceremonies and rites. (Our mainstream culture's remnants of it are mostly taken from Celtic Britain- Halloween/Samhain, Thanksgiving, and Easter/Ostar's Day.)

All societies eventually develop some unified conception of fertility, but pre-scientific strongly agricultural societies tend to transfer notions from plant fertility and seed development onto human beings. Soon there is this comparison of woman as the equivalent of a fruit-bearing plant and the pregnancy as the fruit. The problem is the emphasis and value placed on the fruit compared to its provider. The corollary in the abortion debate is a view of the relative importance of the fetus and merely coincidental existance of the mother. For these people so invested abortion is a sacrilege- it clashes with their belief in pregnancy/fertility as an esoteric state in which the meaning of life is fulfilled and the fetus is mediator of the sacred.

A second strand of 'religious' tradition of relevance is the one of Nature worship, in which "unnatural" things, violations of "natural" processes, are things the Gods (of Nature) find sacrilegious. For humans that means all sexuality/conduct/offspring must be normal among conventional human beings and have counterparts in undiseased Nature, and to fend off angering of the Gods all things incompatible with the way They expect it to be are to be regarded as perversions, diseased, and requiring destruction (otherwise the Nature Gods will punish all men for not complying with the Order so ostensibly established and to be obeyed). And that is why followers of the Old Religions believe it is morally right and pragmatically necessary to kill homosexuals, pedophiles, sodomites, adulterers, malformed or unusual infants, disfigured people of certain kinds, the mentally ill, the rabies-infected, witches, or those who act too much like certain kinds of animals, one member of pairs of twins, those with 'the Evil Eye', and so forth. Abortion and abortionists clearly violate the Order of Nature, which is why preventing the former and killing the latter is moral in the extremists' way of misconstruing the world. (That is also why killing, homophobia, and anti-choice seem to run together.) These beliefs and action upon them is emphatically present in Germanic and Celtic culture/religion and well documented. Calvin might be counted as the last high priest of the thing, jamming so much of it into his Christianity it's stunning. (Compare his Five Points to the Angles' and Saxons' theology of Odin and Tyr for some serious amusement.)

Agricultural fertility cultism is a part of the heritage of most ethnic groups in this country- Latinos, Europeans, Africans, Asians. The Natural Order belief system comes to us mostly from the northern half of Europe- and perhaps to some small degree northern Asia (Korea, Japan).

Anyway, that's the best argument I can muster from a limited amount of experiences dealing with anti-choicers. If it's wrong, help me find correct ones.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Ultrasonic Imaging.....
I think a lot of the (more) mainstream emotional opposition comes from modern sources. The 'facts of life' really weren't known until a couple hundred years ago. And, until ultrasonic imaging became common, 'being pregnant' was pretty much an abstract business. Now you -see- the fetus kicking around. There's an emotional response.

The hardcore fundamentalist Catholics are actually anti-birth control (and anti-sex). So, 'reducing the need for abortions' doesn't work for them.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. reparations for scenario you mention
Edited on Thu Sep-04-03 08:04 AM by JNelson6563
from the bible. Interesting blurb from the bible, that. The way I recall it, it went something like; if a man assualts a pregnant woman and she miscarries the penalty is monetary. If the woman dies than the man is guilty of murder/homicide. Causing death for the fetus is clearly viewed as a lesser not equal crime.

I find that very interesting.

Julie
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Sorta like that whole rapture....
Retroactively adding ideas to an established religion never works out all that well.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Interesting post.
thanks.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-04-03 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. Not to beat on the Catholics but
The reason the protestants are so rapped up in the abortion issue actually goes back to the concept of Papal Infallibility. For a long time the Protestant sects gave little thought to the abortion issue. As has been pointed out the bible is fairly silent on it other than stating that if a woman is made to involuntarily miscarry by an assault the worst they should do is fine the men responsible. There is no mention of voluntary abortion at all in the bible.

In 1968 Pope Paul VI issued and Encyclical called Humanae Vitae. It spelled out the official Papal position on birth control and abortion. Being an official Papal proclomation it is taken as infallible.

In 1973 when Roe V Wade hit, the American Catholic Bishops issued a battle plan called the Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life Activities. It set out the blue print for manipulating the American government and called for including the protestant sects to bring this about. When the protestant sects first encountered this movement they found it to be a tremendous money and awareness raiser and took to it immediately. Thus the antiabortion forces were created having nothing to do with the bible.
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