Update from Bev Harris and blackboxvoting! (about FL!)

[Vote4Kerry]

Just went to blackboxvoting.org's site. They had an update:


UPDATE due Tuesday Nov 23 -- A significant development, announcement late afternoon or evening.

BREAKING -- MONDAY NOV 22 2004: Florida counties stonewall records requests. While some Florida counties have been attentive to the public interest and have promptly complied with our public records requests (scroll down for the Nov. 2 records request, for critical audit diagnostics), other counties have stalled, stonewalled, failed to comply in a timely manner, or outright refused to provide the records. Stay tuned for who they are and what happens next.



(billboard in Orlando, FL)
"I'm George W. Bush, and I approved this message."

[linazelle]

1. I'm rooting for BBV as well as a fucking egg to throw at that billboard nt

:evilgrin:

[gordianot]

12. Bev is great.

I also love the bill board. If there was ever a symbol Democrats should protect that is the one. The best idea I've seen is to send as many people to worship that marvelous icon as possible. My only fear is it is a plant or dirty trick. If so it is the ultimate dirty trick.

We need to keep that sign intact it is priceless.

[demobabe]

49. I'm still waiting for the last update...

Wasn't Bev going to tell us what happened in Volusia County?

She got all those poll tapes from the dumpster and said there were discrepancies and that it had to do with minority votes. Didn't she say she was going to tell us what that was? We still have no details on that.

Now we have to wait for details for counties that haven't given information? In other words, we've been waiting for nearly a week to hear that she has no info? Why the big hype to make everyone wait until tomorrow? If she hasn't been getting info, why can't she spend one more minute on the computer to name off a few counties at least? Doesn't make sense.

I also am waiting for her to post the complaint she filed in California which she's soliciting ideas for discovery requests. If we don't have the complaint to look at, we don't know what to ask for in discovery. Since it's California, wouldn't that just pertain to the problems with the Diebold machines and the reason Kevin Shelley decertified them? If so, all the zillions of requests about voting records in other states in the thread Bev started would not be material in discovery.

I want some real facts.

[demobabe]

63. Maybe she will have some Volusia County news after all

Read this:

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpOPN82112204.htm

Talks about her potentially going and looking at ballots from 50 precincts and that they could be prepared to do a hand recount in the precincts she wants within a few days.

Says this is her chance to prove her theory about vote fraud in electronic voting. The election official is saying they think this will prove that the machines are accurate and tamper-proof.

My prediction: they'll both come up short. We already know the machines make mistakes, are not 100% accurate, and can be hacked. I just don't think we'll see anything so blatant that it can't be easily dismissed as a "glitch" - and I'm hoping I'm totally wrong on this.

[linazelle]

72. Your prediction is a good one...I'm not expecting miracles from BBV

I know that the job is tough as hell and the few dollars we've thrown in that direction only make it a little easier. Consider too, that if we have people here trying to discredit BBV, it's to be expected that they are also out there too befriending Bev and Andy, volunteering to "help." They cannot open the doors to everybody to do this work which means they are up to their ears in BBV issues. I'm hoping for the best.

[Imalittleteapot]

2. That billboard makes me feel like I'm living in a

dictatorship. Will his portrait appear on sides of buildings next? Will statues be erected?

:puke:

Now I'll go to BBV. Thanks.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. Will statues be erected?

of it... or they might want to just recycle Saddam's and save a few tax payers dollars.... never know what they might be thinking.....

[BrotherBuzz]

38. I'm hoping his portrait appears on a milk carton...

[Huckebein the Raven]

75. I think we'll something like a giant "W" everywhere

like those "W" bumper stickers

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. About that billboard:

:puke: :puke: :puke:

And doesn't it have some, shall we say, totalitarian overtones? Does it remind you ever so slightly of the huge posters of one Mr. Hussein that were torn down during the Great Liberation?

On closer examination, it appears the billboard belongs to Clear Channel. That makes it even worse -- a huge media outlet with huge billboards with pictures of "Our Leader"? Welcome to the new fascist state -- no distinction between corporations and government. Grab your ankes and forget about the Vaseline.

[SaintAnne]

6. I hear ya

yes it does kind of resemble a fascist state thing. that just scares me even more. wouldn't it be funny if it turns out he was never really elected... oh it would be wonderful to tear that sign down! It might not be true, but I'll sit here and imagine it for awhile.

[Mick Knox]

4. Any update on her lawsuit vs DU?

I've lost all respect for her.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. What lawsuit?

[Must_B_Free]

56. Some jealous wannabees stepped on her toes and got snapped at

then the low post trolls tried to fluff it into something.

As someone who has been here since the beginning, I can say that I once had my suspicions about Bev, namely due to controversial people who have been nearby, but time has demonstrated that she is a woman of action who makes things happen.

She stands up for herself and her rights, and protects her (and our) interests, whenever threatened.

What happened is like the time someone took her name (the BBV .com/.org) thing and caused confusion. Now again someone accidentally tried to start a group using names she was already using for non profits groups and she preemptively dealt with it, rather than going through it all again.

You would never have heard of BBV without Bev.

[leesa]

68. Thanks. Jealousy describes it perfectly.

[nostamj]

13. just a hunch, MK

if Bev was suing DU, would she still have an active account?

do some homework. you obviously know little about her work. and less about HER.

[Mick Knox]

25. She difinately threatened

I cant find the thread but I read it when it was happening. Its on one of the forums on DU.

her little org is now officially suspect to me.

[Truman01]

27. Here is the thread I was wondering the same thing

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=3300#3470

[Truman01]

30. I'm an attorney

and I originally supported Bev, and even gave some money to BBV, but after that thread I started to wonder. Legally she was way off base. I just don't know where she is coming from.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. You know, while the rest of us have been able to decompress

after November 2nd, and try to return to some kind of normal life, Bev has been working 24/7. I admit that I have been praying for Bev to pull a rabbit out of a hat, and that hope has sustained me. For that I'm willing to give Bev the benefit of the doubt. Nerves are frayed, exhaustion is setting in. Why don't we just get prepared to give her whatever support she needs for carrying the torch for us, as long as she has.

[Truman01]

40. I suppose you are right

She is working pretty hard and hopefully she will find something for her work. It's bound to be out there, people can't be this stupid.

[Ducks In A Row]

55. Excuse me, but her's IS a non-profit group, and anyone else

using that name in ways that are illegal for non-profit CAN cause the someone to complain to the gov't and in turn cause them to lose that non-profit status.

And if people here can't understand that, that's sad.

You know there are people not there who'd love to shut her down, and gee, doing something illegal for non-profit's is a dandy way to go.

If she didn't protest, strongly, and threaten legal action, it took be taken by the wrong people to mean she agrees with that illegal action

So cool down, think it through, and cut the lady a hugh break.

[demobabe]

59. Then Blackboxvoting.com should be shut down immediately

Except that it was Bev's original site with her original book publisher, who coined the term, "Black Box Voting."

So there is already a sufficiently confusing precedent out there as Blackboxvoting.com continues to run (legally) and sell the Black Box Voting book (legally).

Nobody that I can tell tried to represent themselves as Black Box Voting Inc., the non-profit organization. The post in question used the term "BBV" and "Cleanup Crew" - neither of which are trademarked or registered in any way from what I can tell.

What I did see was Bev Harris threaten legal action to both the DU member and the DU itself which still doesn't make sense to me - but then I'm not a lawyer. I was just extremely disappointed that Bev Harris threatened to go after the resource (DU) which she had been using as a platform to solicit donations for her own organization. Essentially, she'd be using the money raised on the DU to try to destroy it. To me, that is morally reprehensible. Legally, it doesn't make sense to me, either.

[Truman01]

69. They didn't use her name

They used BBV and said the words cleaning crew. That is far from using her trademark. There is a BBV.com that has no affiliation with her. If she wants to bring an action they are the ones that are infringing. There is definitely confusion because both sites go into the confusion.

No, Bev, for some inexplicable reason went ballistic on a SUPPORTER and threatened to sue. That wasn't right, and accomplished nothing but caused dissent. A simple admonishment that we need to becareful not to imporperly use the name would have been plenty to "protect" bbv.

I'll be interested to see if she really accomplishes anything but raising money.

[johnaries]

58. Thanks for the thread - I don't see any lawsuit threat..

I just see where she said she was checking with her lawyers. As she said many times the whole problem was "mucking up" the legal picture and she wanted to maintain clarity from a legal standpoint...
Go Bev!

[demobabe]

60. Post #4 in that thread is basically a Cease and Desist notice

This is what Bev Harris posted... Notice she says she WILL take action against the DU and the DU members posting. I have not seen anywhere where anyone "hijacked" the name "Black Box Voting Inc." The closest I saw was posters using "BBV" - which isn't a registered trade name, and I see it used all the time by all kinds of folks - not relating to Black Box Voting Inc.

4. CHANGE TRADE NAME IMMEDIATELY

Putting you on notice that hijacking the established trade name of a 501c(3) nonprofit is actionable. I have notified the mods. Do your good work, but under a name that you create and register, with a volunteer squad name that you create and register.

If DU continues to sanction this hijack, we will take action against both DU and the people who are doing this. Have notified our lawyer, who is working on this now.

Change it. Do it now. And your blatant use of someone else's trade name does not show very good ethics.

[xpunkisneatx]

28. link for Bev vs. DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=3300#3470

[Mick Knox]

29. Whoops there it is

but for those of you who want to contribute - go for it. Black Box is Black listed in my book. Besides, if there is any shred of truth to any of the theories, the DNC should be doing this stuff... if they aint, then we have more of a problem than some little website can fix.

[Kurovski]

45. The Democrats ARE officially jumping into the fray

And BBV set the groundwork for the actions.

Money to BBV is money well spent.

Shooting one's self in the foot seems to be a hobby with some visitors to DU.

[symbolman]

48. I don't agree

The democrats in OHIO are the ones taking the crooks to court.. I'm as interested in getting proper results as the next democrat, but let's be serious about all the people doing HARD WORK everywhere..

I want RESULTS and I'll believe them when I see them. And it looks like the Democrats in OHIO are going to get them.

I also don't believe that BBV is the second coming, there's hope and then there's being so hopeful that you don't even want to listen to reason.

Hell, we spent a YEAR and interviewed hundreds of people to make our film, there's action going on everywhere..

[nostamj]

32. if Bev was suing DU, would she still have an active account?

waiting..................................................

oh, no answer? hm........

lots of shit posted on DU, ya know.

FYI: Bev and BBV are just a little too busy in FL working to secure your votes....

[xpunkisneatx]

34. ok dude...

no reason to be an asshole about this. We were only pointing out the fact that she threatened. And honestly, no one who threatens me is getting my hard earned money. I don't give a flying fuck if she is busy or not, she had no justification to treat people that way.

[linazelle]

44. It's so easy to use personal attacks to try down an important cause...

I'm sure most who have seen through the corruption in our government will also see through the efforts to tear down what BBV is doing.

Bev has been followed by naysayers who basically change their names and remain anonymous to try to diminish the work she is doing. While she may come on strong, if you review the thread with the lawsuit threat, you will see that she was attacked first. She responded--not in the most effective way but she responded to another attack.

As for threats, you say no one who threatens "you." Did Bev personally threaten you as well? Can you provide evidence of that?

[symbolman]

52. She was NOT attacked

She came on with effectively a CEASE AND DESIST on terms that she has no copyright or trademark on.. (we looked it up, it's incorporated but that's not a trademark - doesn't mean she can't try..) and against people that were trying to HELP.. innocent people.. and threatened the DU.. it was nasty..

these are facts, and they have nothing to do with anyone trying to "bring her down".. these were her actions, read it yourself if you haven't..

no needs to try to bring her down, and I'm sure that no one here has that in mind.. it's against the rules anyway..

I just want facts and results, promises and hype I got plenty of right here on my tv and it's free..

[linazelle]

71. This seemed to be an attack to me--

From Eloriel preceding Bev's post in the thread:

"THis thread is obsolete (and then some).

Those who are interested in working on Vote Fraud issues are asked to sign up here:

VOTE FRAUD WORK (Write - Organize - Research - Kick) TEAM SIGN UP (start here)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

and then contribute in the relevent CURRENT threads.

Thanks."


Eloriel is brilliant, so is Bev. I'm not taking sides. I'm just trying to make sense of the whole thing. It just seemed that the above words were encouraging people to abandon BBV in favor of other causes. That might be perceived as an attack.

As someone said in this thread further down, it may be more of a misunderstanding than anything.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D

[symbolman]

74. SO what you're saying is

that ONLY BBV is certified to do this work?

That is a slap in the face to all the others, me, the people on this board, all the democrats in Ohio..

Come on. They are trying to get the goods and I've seen more results in Ohio than anywhere..

Eloriel didn't threaten to SUE Bev or the DU did she? or am I missing something?

[LittleClarkie]

54. Gotta love the internets

The dispute looked to me like the kind of thing that can happen on the internet, where misunderstandings grow, where feelings are easily hurt, where people say things through their computers that they would never say in person.

I understand the issue Bev appeared to be talking about. I belong to a club, and one of the members would do things in our name without telling us, or consulting. Sometimes it was innocuous, but sometimes it was ethically questionable. We ended up having to write something into our constitution saying that the club's officers had to be notified before our name was used for things of which we had no knowledge.

Bev's reaction was strong and very legalistic, but I think sometimes you have to be that way with a cease and desist. It sure got your attention, didn't it?

Why do I get the feeling someone doesn't want the BBV issue coordinated. They want everyone working independantly and therefore less effectively.

Let's not turn on each other people. At least let's get to the "drop dead" date before we decided we've been cheated with false hope.

Maybe someone could contact the Ohio Dem Party and ask them if they feel there is a problem with Bev. I should think they would have an opinion on the effectiveness of her efforts and the best way to help with the voter fraud issue.

[Zhade]

64. Sorry, she was not attacked first. She assaulted Eloriel.

All Eloriel was doing was trying to get people to help Bev, and Bev blindsided her with a demand to cease and desist, as if Eloriel had purposefully done something horribly wrong to undermine Bev's efforts - something that couldn't be farther from the truth.

It reminded me of the time Diebold sent ME a cease and desist for helping Jim March and Bev by mirroring source code files on my webspace. I was one of the first to get threatened with legal action, and it's NOT a pleasant feeling. And in this case, Eloriel wasn't knowingly risking punishment - she just wanted to help the efforts!

I think Bev was way out of line. She resorted to forceful demands before she even discussed the implications of Eloriel's actions with her. Since Eloriel was just trying to help people like Bev's efforts, it crossed a line without needing to.

[leesa]

67. So many thin skins around here, no wonder nothing gets done

Makes you wonder why so many are trying to put BBV down. Is she getting to close to the truth for some.

[Mick Knox]

35. Only thing I know for sure

If she threatened to sue, she would still have an active account.:bounce:

[symbolman]

51. My friend

maybe the masters here at DU are very kind..

Have you seen the threat she made?

Skinner and the cooler heads here are seriously good people.

and BTW she's been tombstoned before.

[symbolman]

50. Be careful

I've had threads locked here for mentioning that Harris threatened the DU.

Can't touch her - according to some people she's out running across the gulf of mexico in hot persuit.

Personally I'm pissed as hell that someone can threaten the DU and vaccuum up a bunch of money while the DU is running their fund drive..

but they will shut you down if you bring it up.. according to the rules you can't attack people.. but you can sure come on here create hype and live large with it..

I don't understand why all these BBV superfans don't huddle over at that site..

[SoCalDemGrrl]

61. Until you walk in her shoes- don't diss Bev Harris...

She has a lot of people gunning for her right now and the last thing she needs is for her tax exempt status to be put in jeopardy, and we all know the BUSHIES would love to threaten her with that!!

It's easy to sit behind a computer monitor and criticize Bev, but I dare all you MEN who are dissing her to get off your asses and do the grunt work that she is willing to do.

I for one am glad she has lawyers to protect her and everyone on DU has a responsibility to donate to BBV or shut up cuz Bev seems to be the only one getting anything done around here. TALK IS CHEAP GUYS!!!

(By the way before you flame me about not having enough DU "points", I am not a political newbie, I was deeply involved in the Table Talk/Salon panels in the 2000 election debacle before there was a DU!)

[Truman01]

70. You have to love the sexist attacks

I hate it when we eat our own. Now because we are MEN we are wrong and sitting on our ASS? Let me tell you miss CoCalDemGrrl I did not and am not sitting on my ass. I work hard just like you and I take offense to your sexist silly remarks. So far the only thing I can see that Bev has gotten DONE is fundraising. Even that wouldn't bother me if she had not turned right around and attacked us at DU after taking our money.

By the way, Bev attacked a WOMAN not a man. Because obviously you wouldn't care if she attacked a MAN because all MEN do is sit on our FAT LAZY ASSES and TALK.

YOU ARE RIGHT, TALK IS CHEAP. And YOUR talk about SEXISM is VERY VERY CHEAP.

[Vote4Kerry]

5. The fraud is in FL, the billboard is in FL --What is up with

Florida?!! If I had to drive by that sign on my way to work (while listening to Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh), I would go completely insane and lose it!

[GreatAuntK]

You said it Vote4Kerry.

And we have had some humungous posters of Jeb, and Rush, as well, defacing our highways.

Voting in FL is so discouraging. I was disenfranchised Aug. 31 also, and Nov. 3 made me cry.

[Vote4Kerry]

18. I feel so sorry for you guys down in FL

Thankfully, I live in Kerry country up in New England--Nobody would dream of putting one of those signs up where I'm at!

[jdj]

22. I guess we need "not MY leader" bumper stickers.

[acmavm]

7. How long do you think it will be before someone crawls up there and

blackens out one of his front teeth? Then he'll look just like Alfred E. (my apologies to Alfred).

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. Any DUers in Orlando?

You know what to do...

Paint? Cowpies? Eggs? Whatever you've got. Go for it.

[Carl Brennan]

47. Get a big blown up version of that Nation mag cover picture of

Bush as Alfred E. Newman and plaster it up there with "Our leader, The Village Idiot" next to it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. The Attorney General's Office in Florida does a very good

job of intervening if there is a problem with a Public Records Request between a person and government body. The other person that Bev can look up is Barbara Peterson from the First Amendment Foundation.

If she is serious about Public Records requests, I'd be surprised if she doesn't already know about these people.

[Vote4Kerry]

14. She says big announcement tomorrow

Let's all hope for the best!

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. Oh, Criminey.

I hope we're not building ourselves up for another cryfest.

[OnionPatch]

15. Thanks for the BBV update.

That billboard is unbelievable. Too creepy! Next they'll be erecting statues of him and painting the sides of buildings with Bush murals.
What is the purpose of this monstrosity?

[Vote4Kerry]

16. Ask Clear Channel--But they deny it exists

There was a big controversy about the billboard earlier today. DUers called Clear Channel and asked what was up with the billboard--they deny they had anything to do with it. An internet reporter is looking into the story and should fill everybody in on all the details of this still developing story!

[librechik]

21. it says 'brought to you by Clearchannel" right on the billboard.

I'm sure it's just an oversight.
:evilgrin:

[BREMPRO]

31. Could be a brilliant Orwellian mockery of W and CC by a LW critic...

now that would be funny

[Zan_of_Texas]

20. Clear Channel, eh? That's quite a coincidence.

Let me tell you about Clear Channel.

Vice Chair (or he was last time I checked), huge stockholder of Clear Channel is Tom Hicks.

Tom Hicks is a long-time crony of George W. Bush.

When Governor, Bush appointed Hicks to run state money -- billions of dollars, UTIMCO. Hicks declared he didn't have to tell anyone where he invested the money, including private placements with none other than cronies of Hicks and Bush.

Hicks bought out the Texas Ranger baseball team from the group including Bush, and Bush profited -- less than $1 million investment (borrowed), became $14 million, and Dubya was a millionaire for the first time.

What does this have to do with anything?

Would you be surprised to know that there was a long time printing company in Austin, Texas named Hart Graphics, that wanted to get bigger and start making voting machines? Would you be surprised to know that Tom Hicks' venture capital company was one of a handful of entities that ponied up over $40 million to kick Hart up to the next level, so it could become one of the national players in developing electronic voting? That was in 1999. Hart InterCivic is the name, Austin is the headquarters, and they count the votes in Austin, in Fort Worth/Tarrant County. And in Houston/Harris County - so they have the state capital plus the largest county in the 2d-largest state. (If Harris County was a state, it would be a medium-sized state.) Also, Hart counts Boulder, Colorado and Orange County, CA and others.

[highplainsdem]

53. Clear Channel isn't the only billboard sponsor.

See the thread at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2736955 , Rawstory's message there -- #83 -- and my reply, #89, in response to his question about Charles W. Clayton, Jr., who's mentioned in the billboard story at http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=442 as the sponsor of the other billboard like this in Orlando. I googled Clayton and discovered he's a Seminole County realtor. I'm guessing Bush donors were asked to sponsor these billboards around the country (there's another one in Fresno sponsored by Clear Channel). The question is, who's coordinating this? Rove?

[Lizzie Borden]

17. God that billboard!

It's Stalnistic.

[LOCxHippy]

24. Or, a current analogy...

Hellooooooooo, does the name Saddam ring any bells?! LOL If they start erecting statues, we ARE doomed!

[noamnety]

19. no eggs, no hitler moustaches

That billboard seriously needs some activist to cover the bush photo with a stalin photo.

And one of the other ones can get a saddam statue.

We see it immediately, we need to get others to see it immediately.

And if we can't access that one directly, the next best thing is some freeway blogging in the area that mimics it in an unmistakable way, with the stalin/saddam images.

[gordianot]

23. Absolutely

Now that it has been identified as real, this needs to be researched regarding its origin.

Here is the rallying point for all Democrats.

[sangh0]

33. So what's the update?

.

[Nordic]

36. Hey Orlando DUers -- buy PAINTBALL GUNS

and go find that billboard.

Do it for all of us.

[JennC]

62. That sounds so therapeutic!

[lovuian]

39. Whoo Hoo Bev!!! Let me guess which counties Refused their records

Broward County
Miami Dade and Palm Beach County

I think Bev has found where they been hacking!!!

Whoo Hoo Bev!!! :bounce:

[GetTheRightVote]

42. I sure hope you are right Lovuian

Nordic, please do not encourage us to take those kind of actions in Florida,we could end up in Jeb's jail for a very long time, lol.

I was thinking earlier about those counties too though I am from Orange county and it was pretty brutal there too, repukes do not want Democrats to vote here. Very bad people, I hate that bill board.

They put a big one up there for Earnhart when he passed as well, I heard that it was a local but very wealthy person who paid for it to be there but for Bush, it is probably the biggest slap in the face they could give us Dems here in florida after stealing the election too. I really hate the way they act here, they are so evil, put up the middle finger to my daughter for wearing a Kerry shirt, they are just sick people.

[Pachamama]

41. OMG! I'm in Orlando right now! Where is that monstrosity?

I'm here all week...maybe there is something Pachamama can do? :eyes:

[Vote4Kerry]

43. billboard here

I-4 North of downtown orlando on the West side facing south near the intersection of Fairbanks.

[212demop]

46. here's the link to the whole story with locations of the various

billboard sites (yes, there are several). Those billboards wouldn't last an hour in New York.

www.rawstory.com

[TexasChick]

57. Plaster that piece of crapola with paint and obscenities!! Make us proud

here at DU!!!

[Keirsey]

65. remote graffiti

[Donailin]

66. How f*cking Orwellian

it's just a matter of time before those billboards are everywhere. Someone let me know when the two minutes of hate commence.

[demo dutch]

73. Glenda Hood (Sect of State Fla) used to be mayor of Orlando

and Mel Martinez who squeaked into office taking Graham's Senate seat is also based in Orlando.
So figure it out!!! It's just disgusting!