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Law professor advises "reserve judgment on Fallujah shooting"

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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:34 AM
Original message
Law professor advises "reserve judgment on Fallujah shooting"
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 08:40 AM by Cuban_Liberal
I attended a forum on campus last night, the subject of which was "War Crimes in Fallujah?". The speaker was Dr. Cynthia Buys, visiting professor of international and military law at the University of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign, a distinguished scholar who has studied and taught about the Geneva Convention and who has also served as a consultant to the International War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague. Dr. Buys began her presentation by reminding the attendees that under the Geneva Convention, there are specific guidelines that spell out the rules of war.

"The Geneva Convention is an international treaty signed in 1949 largely in response to the atrocities that occurred in World War II," Buys said. "The most relevant article that deals with the situation in Fallujah that we all saw on television states that members of the armed forces who are wounded or sick shall be respected and protected in all circumstances and treated humanely. Any attempt on their lives shall be strictly prohibited. If what we've seen is accurate, then the man that was wounded would be protected by this particular article."

However, Dr. Buys stressed the three-and-a-half minute video clip falls far short of showing the entirety of the circumstances involved in the shooting.

"In other words, I also heard news reports that during the previous 24 hours, a fellow U.S. soldier who belonged to this same unit approached a person who was lying down or somebody who the soldier thought was sick or wounded and that person was booby trapped with a bomb. That bomb exploded, killing that soldier and wounding others nearby," Buys said. "I would like to remind everyone here that there is also a rule of law that says you are not supposed to use ruses, either. Those that are militarily appropriate can be used, but pretending to be wounded in order to draw soldiers to you would also be looked upon as an unlawful use of the rules of war, and anyone witnessing such an occurrence would quite properly consider what they had witnessed in subsequent situations of a similar nature.

"At this time we simply can't know all the circumstances under which the soldier was operating. We don't know exactly what he saw, or if the person he shot and killed moved and made some gesture that he considered threatening or inappropriate. We don't know the full story yet, and it is wrong for us to adjudge the soldier in question as either guilty or innocent based upon the limited amount of information available at this time. However, should the ongoing investigation ultimately produce proof that the person who was shot was both unarmed and not in any way threatening the soldier in question, then he shouldn't have been shot and a crime was committed under the Geneva Convention.

"I think right now that the most appropriate action is to allow the ongoing investigation to proceed and determine what all the circumstances are, and what the U.S. soldier saw," she said. "Until that has been done, any judgment regarding whether or not a war crime has been committed is based upon a less-than-complete understanding of the facts and is, at best, premature.

Dr. Buys expressed confidence in the ability of military investigators to do a thorough criminal investigation and reach a legally-appropriate decision as regards possible criminal charges. "Lets be realistic about this situation. It was captured on tape and broadcast worldwide on television. The whole world knows that there was a shooting in that mosque, and only the worst sort of fool would even attempt to be less than thorough or candid about what happened. There will be no cover up or whitewash," she predicted.
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Metatron Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I would agree with everything except the last paragraph.
I still believe it is entirely likely that they will try to cover up or whitewash the results of the investigation. That's what the military did in the death of the Reuters journalist. Why wouldn't they do it in this case, too?
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Possibly.
It's just her opinion about what she thinks will happen.

:hi:
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Metatron Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I know. I appreciate and agree with her legal analysis.
I just think that the military are exactly the types of fools to try and cover it up!
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm not sure.
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 09:09 AM by Cuban_Liberal
I still have friends in the military, and most of them report that the military isn't exactly thrilled about being forced into fighting the war in Iraq, and are even less thrilled about having to deal with the mess it's become. If they can find some way to correctly blame this on D.O.D. or the White House, they'll probably do it.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. we are in trouble if this woman
thinks this won`t be covered up or whitewashed. this isn`t the only one that was caught on tape-remember the over the wall shooting of an injuried iraqi fighter?
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Sorry, but I don't remember that particular incident.
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 08:47 AM by Cuban_Liberal
The unending string of horror in Iraq is beginning to run together like some macabre blur. Nonetheless, her legal points are well-taken.

:shrug:
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. the over the wall shooting...
was of an indisputably armed insurgent. Apples and oranges.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. you took a lot of heat a couple days ago
asking people to do the same thing, reserve judgement

just wanted to say sorry for not backing you up then, i agree with you completely. none of us were there and none of us know the situation. i think a lot of people on here, due to their extremely passionate opposition to the war, don't reserve a lot of space for objectivity when it comes to anything bad that comes out of this war (besides the whole thing of course)

i've been against this thing since before it started but i've never been in combat, and most people here haven't either...so people should stop and think rationally and objectively for awhile before making judgement
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Ours is an unpopular viewpoint.
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 08:50 AM by Cuban_Liberal
Don't worry about not backing me up previously. The general (vocal) atmosphere here at DU regarding this incident is such that, if we were in the rope business, we'd be rich now from supplying the lynch mob...

:shrug:
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. heh
i'm actually writing a column for my school (college) newspaper about the incident...i'm going to surprise the hell out of my conservative editorial director (and former marine)
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Excellent!
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 08:53 AM by Cuban_Liberal
:thumbsup:
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rog Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. Don't forget the videographer's first hand account.
Kevin Sites posted a long and very sad account of all of the events leading up to and following this horrific incident. It sheds some light on Dr. Buys' "less-than-complete understanding of the facts."

Open Letter to Devil Dogs of the 3.1
http://www.kevinsites.net
Posted Sunday, November 21, 2004

This is required reading for all of us wondering about what happened. Please take a look at this when you're researching your column.

That said, I can't imagine what it's like for our KIDS to be thrown into this hornet's nest.

.rog.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thank you, rog!
This should be required reading for everyone wanting to discuss this incident! thanks for posting it.

:)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Well, I want to thank you
for backing me up the other day in the thread I started on this subject, regarding holding off judgement. I was amazed at how off the wall it got.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. You're welcome.
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 09:25 AM by Cuban_Liberal
Sadly, that seems to happen a lot with ANY thread that deals with anything related to Iraq and out armed forces that is not instantly and unquestionably negative. *sigh*

:shrug:
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
28. Precisely. It's been really disheartening watching due-process
get kicked to the curb in order to make room for self-indulgent attention-whore hysteria :evilfrown:
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. I know.
We Democrats are supposed to be the party of due process and respect for the principle of 'equality before the law', yet there are many here who would have done any Old West lynch mob proud.
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Metatron Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. What comments on this thread are not objective?
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Pardon?
I'm not sure I understand the question.

:shrug:
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Metatron Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sorry, I'm not quite awake yet!
I was referring to mark414's comment that many people on this board "don't reserve a lot of space for objectivity" regarding incidents in Iraq. I just wondered if that was in reference to comments on this thread, or to the tone of DU in general.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Oh!
I can't speak for mark414, but my comments about a lynch-mob mentality here at DU was based on a broad reading of many threads previously posted here about this incident.
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Metatron Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I tend to avoid first reaction threads about incidents in Iraq.
So, I wouldn't know about that. I should have been more specific above. When I said the military can be fools regarding cover-ups, I meant those way up the ladder - not the servicemen and women actually doing the work.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Gotcha!
I basically agree, and I also tend to reserve judgment on such things, because so often the temptation is there to jump onto the "Let's make this look as bad as possible, so that it will reflect badly on Bush" bandwagon. While I would love to do anything resonable to make Bush look bad, I won't become a party to 'lynching' a possibly innocent US soldier, just to achieve that end.

:hi:
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. well said
i think that's part of it too, the "anything that will make bush look bad" deal
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. We need to be careful.
I thoroughly agree with the goal trying to make Bush look as bad as possible, as often as possible, but we have to be careful not to throwthe baby out with the bath.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. i just think there was a lot of knee jerk reactions
because the video was a horrible sight, there's no question about that

but you can't condemn someone for something when you don't have all the facts
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Exactly, mark414!
I was sickened by the video myself, but as Dr. Buys correctly notes, we only saw a 3 1/2 minute-long 'snapshot' of what is, in truth, as 24 hour-long 'movie'.

:)
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
13. Something else about Fallujah.
It sounds like it's the place where they were holding our hostages and beheading them.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
26. Hmmm, a couple of unaddressed points
Did Dr. Buys address the initial invasion of Iraq, and whether our country's stated casus belli was legitimate under the Geneva Conventions? And if the roots of the conflict are tainted, can it produce anything but tainted results?

And if the conflict itself is illegal, are we as the aggressor nation entitled to any protections at all from a population that can be legitimately described as engaged in self defense? That is, when the initial aggression is against international law, is the nation that started it entitled to be heard when its soldiery is abused under the same international law?

This sounds to me disturbingly similar to the case of the man who kills his parents and then begs the court for leniency because he's an orphan.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Your argument is flawed.
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 11:10 AM by Cuban_Liberal
Legal or illegal, the soldier himself is fighting in a war. This administration's guilt cannot be transferred inter alia to him.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. I asked "if"
Do you have case law that vindicates all combatants and participants from responsibility for an illegal invasion?
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. That has nothing to do with this.
Edited on Tue Nov-23-04 11:46 AM by Cuban_Liberal
The question here is whether or not what that Marine did was a 'war crime', as defined by the Geneva Convention. I'm quite sure that former consultant to the International War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague would have brought that up, if it had had any bearing whatsoever on the instant case.

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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. So you said
Do you have a case or a legal citation? Should be an easy question to answer.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. What confuses you about her presentation?
The thread's o/p is not about the morality of GWB's pre-emptive war.

:wtf::shrug:
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
32. kick
:dem:
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