So are we Pro NAFTA now?

[greenohio]

The DLC and Dean are both pro NAFTA. I think NAFTA took way more union jobs than outsourcing. Is there anyone left besides me who hates NAFTA?

[Cat Atomic]

1. I've always hated NAFTA. It's horrible for the US job market, and

it's hell on the environment as well. I remember reading about businesses in Texas that uprooted and moved 20-30 miles south, just beyond the Mexican border. There they could pollute to their hearts' content. The pollution still affected their original communities since they were so close, but it was A-OK because they were technically in Mexico. So here are these workers in the south who have lost their jobs, and as a final kick in the face, their former employers are now polluting the hell out of their environment.

Mexico has environmental laws but no method for enforcing them, IIRC.

[Indiana_Dem]

2. I'm here!

:hi:

Me and my spouse oppose it. He's lost the only 2 jobs in his life partially due to the influence of globalization and NAFTA.

on edit: Hence, why I voted for Kucinich in the primaries.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. This Canadian will never be pro-NAFTA.

And neither will this Canadian:

Used to have a town but the factory moved away
Down to Mexico where they work for hardly any pay
Used to have a country but they sold it down the river
Like a repossessed farm auctioned off to the highest bidder

from "Mighty Trucks of Midnight" by Bruce Cockburn

[Selwynn]

4. I am for fair trade, which means I oppose NAFTA

[greenohio]

5. Well put. Mind if I use that one?

[Selwynn]

21. Not at all.

[brokensymmetry]

6. NO!

Globalization is destroying the U.S. - and millions (billions?) of people around the world.

I will never support NAFTA. There are lines that should not be crossed.

Nasty question: if DLC wants to become repug-lite, could they maybe let us have the Democrat name back? It's not like they're using it or anything.

[greenohio]

7. The problem is, so do our alternatives.

Dean is a self described "fiscal conservative." We are running out of true free traders.

[Triana]

8. NAFTA pissed me off to no end....

...it was one of the stupidest things Clinton ever did.

[Forkboy]

9. Can only speak for myself

NAFTA sucks ass!

[greenohio]

10. What could NAFTA stand for...

Not Another F'ing .....ahhh I'm no good at this.

[greenohio]

11. Need Another F'ing Trade Agreement

I got one.

[madfloridian]

12. Want to discuss NAFTA? Here is Dean's view, a consistent one.

Some here seem so obsessed with Dean's views on NAFTA. They act as if we odd little Dean folk are totally unaware of his views on this. He had this view throughout, and he was attacked for even wanting change in it. Go figure. There is a whole lot more on this page.

Kucinich is the only one who advocates withdrawal. Dean has been consistent with his views. Please note the instance below in which Kerry accuses him of undermining our economy by advocating change in the rules.

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Free_Trade.htm

We ought to change NAFTA-globalization only halfway done
Q: What do you make of NAFTA?
A: We ought to change NAFTA. We've only done half the job with globalization. You've globalized the rights of big corporations to do business anywhere in the country, but what we now need to do is globalize the rights of workers, labor unions, environmentalists and human rights. If you do that, you raise the standard of living in other countries. And what happens is our jobs stop going away because the cost of production goes up.

Source: Democratic 2004 primary Debate in Greenville SC Jan 29, 2004

Enforceable & enforced labor and environmental standards
Q: Should the US seek more free or liberalized trade agreements?
A: I want strong, enforceable trade agreements and a trade system bound by clear, continually improving rules. I will push for solid, enforceable labor and environmental standards in all existing and future trade agreements. I will vigorously enforce the agreements we enter into and defend U.S. trade laws when our competitors challenge them.

Source: Associated Press policy Q&A, "Trade" Jan 25, 2004

We've globalized corporations; now globalize worker rights
Q: America's farmers need open markets for their crops around the world, but other American workers want a level playing field. How would you balance those interests?
DEAN: There's no reason we can't do both. NAFTA and the WTO only globalized the rights of multinational corporations, but they did not globalize the rights of workers. They are not going to globalize human rights, environmental rights, the right to organize. That needs to happen. And if it doesn't happen, NAFTA and the WTO simply aren't going to work. Right now, we're exporting jobs.

We need to have a level playing field. We need to have the same kinds of environmental protections, labor protections, human rights protections and worker protections if we're going to have open borders. That will not disadvantage exports.

Source: Democratic 2004 Presidential Primary Debate in Iowa Jan 4, 2004

Q : You have accused Gov. Dean of playing on workers' fears and advocating protectionism and saying that under him it threatens to throw the economy into a tail spin. It that fair?
KERRY: Yes, it is fair, because Gov. Dean has said very specifically that we should not trade with countries until they have labor and environment standards that are equal to the US. That means we would trade with no countries. It is a policy for shutting the door. It's either a policy for shutting the door, if you believe it, or it's a policy of just telling people what they want to hear.

DEAN: I supported NAFTA, I supported the WTO. We benefited in Vermont from trade. But in the Midwest, our manufacturing jobs are hemorrhaging. We have to go back and revise every single trade agreement that we have to include labor standards, environmental standards & human rights standards. If we don't, the trade policy that we seek to help globalize and help workers around the country & the world is going to fail.

Source: Debate at Pace University in Lower Manhattan Sep 25, 2003

Support NAFTA & WTO with level labor standards
Q: Some of your colleagues on this stage have recently questioned your position on free trade. That is because at first you said that US labor standards should be the model for negotiating free trade, and then you changed that to international labor standards.
DEAN: My position on trade is pretty clear. I supported NAFTA, I supported the WTO. However, the problem is that these trade agreements are skewed toward multinational corporations. They benefit them, but they do not have equal protection for the people who work either in this country or elsewhere.

My position on labor standards eventually we have to have the same labor standards through every trade agreement. The place to start is international labor organization standards adhered to and enforced by every one of our trading partners, but ultimately we have to have exactly the same labor standards everywhere.

Source: Debate at Pace University in Lower Manhattan Sep 25, 2003

Free trade based on labor and environmental standards
I do not agree that we ought to get rid of NAFTA and the WTO.But you can't get into the European Union unless you have exactly the same labor and environmental and human rights standards that you do in all those countries. We ought not to be in the business of having free and open borders with countries that don't have the same environmental, labor and human rights standards. And if you do that, we're going to be able to create manufacturing jobs in America again and they'll stay in America.
Source: Democratic Primary Debate, Albuquerque New Mexico Sep 4, 2003

[greenohio]

13. I was waiting for a Deaniac to arrive.

Here's from one of your earlier posts:

http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_Gridiron_Speech_6March_2004.htm

"I learned an enormous amount coming from a small Northeastern state, who benefited from NAFTA and free trade, both of which I supported - I supported NAFTA and I supported China’s entry into the WTO. And we benefited from that -- our trade with Canada went up 400% as a result of the free trade agreement which was the predecessor of NAFTA. "

H. Dean

Now he is doing a little tap dancing... which is fine, so do the DLCer's.

[madfloridian]

19. Yes, he said the same thing in all the debates.

Why are you surprised at that? The DLC used the voice of Bob Rubin to tell him not to criticize NAFTA at all...to back off. So if he were so pro...why would they tell him not to criticize it?

Why are you surprised Dean felt that way? I knew all these things about him from day one when we started supporting him.

He just had the courage to say that it wasn't working as it should and needed to be fixed. Gep and Kerry bashed him for even saying that.

You really puzzle me with your motives. You seem to think it is very important to make Dean look bad. :shrug:

[greenohio]

20. Are you saying he did not support NAFTA.. he says he did.

I am not trying to make Dean look bad. The man is in line for DNC chair. IS DEAN ABOVE ALL SCRUTINY?

He is a fiscal conservative who supported NAFTA.

Why is is SO IMPORTANT TO YOU to make the DLC look bad?

[madfloridian]

24. Yes, he is those things.

I don't mind the members of DLC as a rule. It is their leaders I detest. They do not care about the people of this country, and their purpose in forming the group was to marginalize the minorities and the groups who were not wealthy.

They deliberately chose to be funded by big corporations, and they sold their souls.

I don't know where you got the idea that Dean was anything but a moderate, a centrist. Maybe more than I am. But he is not bound to corporate ideology of the big buck.

You are bent on making us look bad, and it is being noticed now.

[greenohio]

29. The problem I have is the inconsistency with Dean.

NAFTA is the EPITOME of corporate give away at the expense of the laborer. Our job losses are BECAUSE of NAFTA. PERIOD. Dean, with all of his talk of being corp free, supported NAFTA, which benefits ONLY BIG INTERNATIONAL CORPORATIONS. If DLC sold their souls, SO DID DEAN.

[a new day]

30. You think you get a free pass to distort Dean's position?

[greenohio]

38. Dean supported NAFTA. Any other statement is a lie.

He may say that he wants to change it, just like the DLCers, but in the end HE SUPPORTED THE EPITOME OF INTERNATIONAL CORPORATE GIVEAWAYS at the expense of labor. Do you wonder where our jobs went? Do you wonder why labor is voting repuke because they can't tell the difference between us and them? NAFTA is the reason.

[greenohio]

14. Help me here...

If NAFTA does not have the protections that Dean now requires...why did he support it?

[K-W]

15. How is that consistant?

He supports nafta, but he doesnt support what nafta does?

[madfloridian]

23. Right.

The others think it is fine the way it is.

[K-W]

26. So the Dean model of economic legislation

is to pass the corporations bills, then maybe, later if we can, add some stuff to make it better for people?

[madfloridian]

28. Dean was a governor at the time, doing what he thought was best.

You need to only vote for Kucinich, as he the only one who opposed it totally. Dean suggested changes and got threatened by the Dem power that be.

[K-W]

33. Yes, but he supported it. He supported an aweful law.

I undestand that he thought he was doing the right thing. Most politicians do. He did the wrong thing and as best I can tell he still doesnt undestand the issue of free trade on a fact-based level.

[greenohio]

34. Which is why I started the thread.

Are we all Pro NAFTA now?

[madfloridian]

36. Why did Rubin warn Dean to shut up about NAFTA?

Now, wonder why Dean was told to shut up about it? Could it be he got a conscience? Could it be he saw the hurt it was causing? Naw, couldn't be that.

I can not imagine why Bob Rubin was sent to warn him off criticizing NAFTA if Dean were being so nice about it. Can you tell me.?

[greenohio]

37. I don't know.

Maybe because Dean was using it as a bludgeon against all the other candidates for political gain. He was never in DC and had to vote on ANYTHING. He had no votes on NAFTA or IRAQ that he had to explain. All he had to do was be Mayor of VT.

[greenohio]

32. NO. DLCers say the same need for protection that Dean does.

This is a load of Dean propaganda.

[knight_of_the_star]

16. Heck no!

Our trading partners practice FAIR trade, we are the only one that practices FREE trade. We should take a hint from them on that.

[K-W]

17. I am completely anti-nafta.

We must retain control over our own economy.

It is why I supported Gephardt in the primaries.

[genieroze]

18. Bingo

Why do you think I voted for Perot, because of what Clinton did in passing NAFTA and GATT.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. That's why I supported Kucinich

:-)

One reason, at least. There were many others.

[madfloridian]

25. Kucinich is the only one anti-Nafta.

If that is one's only criteria, he is the only one to vote for. You are right.

He had many good stances.

[K-W]

27. Gephardt fough nafta harder than anyone.

I think because he is old, he got misplaced in most peoples minds as DLC, which is odd, as the DLC is not an organization of traditional dems.

[greenohio]

39. Gephardt was the most effective voice against NAFTA.

[UdoKier]

31. NAFTA and FTAAA are crap.

Like uncontrolled illegal immigration, most Americans on the right AND left are against it, and BOTH parties couldn't care less what the people think.

[Union Thug]

35. I am with you.

NAFTA is a race to the bottom. Unless we can guarantee wages and working conditions for workers around the world at least equal to those in the US, then it is a recipe for the exploitation of cheap labor. FUCK NAFTA.