Plame: While My Guitar Gently Weeps

[H2O Man]

Part 1: Beatle George Harrison wrote his classic song "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" at a time that he was reading the "I Ching - The Book of Changes." This book explains an Eastern thought that all things are connected, and thus relative to everything else, as opposed to the Western view that life is a series of random events and concidence. Some of the original lyrics to the song are found in George's book "I-Me-Mine" :

"I look at the trouble
and hate that is raging
while my guitar gently weeps
while I'm sitting here
doing nothing but aging .....
The problems you sow
are the problems you're reaping
still my guitar gently weeps .....


Part 2: The Plame Threads began as a discussion of the controversy involving the White House's exposing CIA operative Valerie Plame. People believed that the administration used a willing Robert Novak to "punish" Plame's husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, for exposing the infamous "16 words" from President Bush's 2003 State of the Union Address as false. But that first thread took the issue a step further: why would the White House destroy the career of a CIA operative involved in national security?

The thread focused on a curious paragraph in a TIME magazine article that detailed the conflicts between the Intelligence Community and the administration. Plame was involved in an investigation involving the sale of WMD components. Considering the controversy over Iraq and WMDs, including the forged yellow cake uranium documents, it seemed to be as closely related as the I Ching might suggest.

I wrote the Waterman Paper, based largely upon information from books including Joseph Wilson's "The Politics of Truth," to advance a theory that the Vice President had been involved in the planning to expose Valerie Plame to derail the investigation she had been involved in. This seemed more likely than to risk felony convictions for outing a CIA operative, simply because they were angry with her husband.

A number of Plame Threads participants did some fascinating research regarding the administration's connections with the marketing of WMD components since the days of the Nixon administration. One of these researchers wrote a paper that presented this information in an organized, detailed, and well-documented fashion.

Going far beyond mere "revenge," the research on the Plame Threads indicated the administration was being led by a cabal intent upon reorganizing the US government, including the military and Intelligence Community, in order to promote their economic agenda. This effort included efforts to occupy parts of the Middle East in a cooperative effort with business/political interests in from England and Israel.


Part 3: In order to accomplish this revolutionary agenda, the cabal needed to neutralize the constitutionally mandated "separation of powers." This is the Founding Father's concept behind
the three branches of the federal government -- the executive, the legislative, and the judiciary -- which in theory have a built-in system of checks and balances that prevent one branch from overpowering the other two.

The executive branch has historically attempted to exert power over the other two. This is best detailed in Arthur Schlesinger, Jr's "The Imperial Presidency," which showed how presidents tended to use "war powers" to expand their power and control over the federal government. This led to the downfall of the Nixon administration; by no coincidence, the Nixon cabal led directly to the Reagan-Bush cabal, which brought us the Iran-Contra scandal; the Reagan-Bush criminals became the Bush 2 administration.

In "Losing America," Senator Robert Byrd explains how on 9-11, the Bush 2 administration "installed a 'shadow government' of about a hundred senior executive branch officials. .... The shadow government is supposed to assume command of the government in case of a national emergency. Of course, this shadow government consists of one branch only, the executive branch .... the Congress has not sanctioned the shadow government, nor were members of Congresseven made aware of its existence until the story was leaked in March 2002." Byrd quotes the administration as saying this is an "indefinite precaution" which Byrd "presumed to continue" in its unconstitutional rule of America today.

To keep the Congress quiet and passive, it comes as no surprise that money is involved. In the 11-29-04 TIME magazine (page 32) retiring senators Fritz Hollings and Ben Nighthorse speak about congress suffering from "the cancer of money" and being "driven an awful lot by these narrowly focused constituent groups" capable of contributing "about $30,000 a week, each week, every week, for six years." Hollings admits, "I've got to get money, money, money, money. And I only listen to people who give me money."

The congress does not have a monopoly on this noble altruism. In his classic book "The Betrayal of America," Vincent Bugliosi details the degree of corruption, based almost entirely upon financial conflicts of interest, that was required to make the US Supreme Court appoint the loser of the 2000 election as the nation's president.

However, in fairness to Antonin Scalia, his motives were not entirely financial. In his presentation to the January 2002 Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, Scalia noted that the US government was no less than the divine inspiration of God. Further, he stated that this divine rule "has been upset by the emergence of democracy .... the reactions of people to this tendency of democracy to obscure the divine authority behind government should not be resignation to it but resolution to combat it as effectively as possible." (American Dynasty; Kevin Phillips; pages 107-8)

Thank goodness there were faithful servants such as Scalia to protect this nation from a democraticly elected president. Some suspect these selfless men of God again intervened in 2004 to save us from the work of the devil -- democracy.


Part 4: The Bush administration has been able to fight "the war on terror" at the same time it has fought its war on democracy, in large part because of an impotent congress and a sterile judiciary. Likewise, the mainstream media has consented to serve this administration in a number of ways: first, as cheerleaders for the invasion of Iraq; then as priest who forgave all the administration's lies; more recently as campaign aides in the effort to elect Bush president; and now as the sacred republic text of "anti-I Ching" as they deny that anything in the worls is possibly connected to the administration's actions. If a few pounds of explosives are missing in Iraq, and American soldiers are being blown apart every day, only the most paranoid of conspiracy theorists would see any relationship.

The mainstream media is able to dissociate the warnings of honest men,( including Paul O'Neill, Richard Clarke, General Wesley Clark, John Dean, Ray McGovern, Kevin Phillips, Joseph Wilson, and Michael Scheuer) that the invasion of Iraq is not as a result of 9-11, is not going very well at all, and will only create more "terrorists" in the Middle East that hate America, from any sense that the Bush-Cheney administration may in some small way be partially responsible. It is now fairly well known -- despite the mainstream media -- that the administration had planned the invasion of Iraq long before 9-11. In fact, the administration's policy in the Middle East sounds like the extremist neocon plan for a "Greater Israel" described in Chris Hedges' book "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" that could "extend from the Nile in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq, and that the Kingdom of Jordan is occupied Jewish land." (page 77)

Besides the dozen books referenced in the Plame Threads, the mainstream media also has done its best to distort or ignore numerous other high-quality sources of accurate information; these include Michael Moore's movie "Fahrenheit 9/11"; Robert Greenwald's hard-hitting documentary "Uncovered"; Amy Goodman's wonderful reporting on LINK-TV; The Nation's David Corn and Katrina vanden Heuval; and internet sources Joshua Micah Marshall and Juan Cole.


Part 5: Numerous times on the Plame Threads, I have stated that there are intelligence assets that influence every mainstream media. These go far beyond a nasty poodle like Robert Novak. It has been reported that CBS's 60 Minutes pushed aside a story based on Josh Marshall's information, which would have focused attention on the forged yellow cake uranium documents, to air the "draft documents" story about Bush and the National Guard. The I Ching would suggest that forged documents are usually related.

The mainstream media becomes the number one source of disinformation. They will make the victims of crime look guilty, and the most guilty criminals look like the victims. In doing so, they trick a large segment of the American people into believing that their friends are actually their enemies, and that their enemies are the most trustworthy of friends.

Yet, while many people know enough not to trust so much as the weather forecast from Fox News, they do not recognize that many other sources are just as crooked. Right now, we have a campaign to confuse the grand jury investigation into the felonious leaking of Valerie Plame's identity with a 1st Amendment case of protecting the identity of a whistle-blower. A whistle-blower exposes government corruption. Novak and his ilk are protecting government corruption of the worst sort. The same is true of Judith Miller: she poses as a reporter, while her actual responsibilities are far different. Her goal in attempting to avoid testifying before the Plame grand jury isn't because she is concerned with the U.S. Constitution. Just the opposite: she is protecting the worst type of traitor.

The real attack on the 1st Amendment comes when someone who is apparently connected to the most extreme of Israeli "front" groups in the USA -- the same type that Larry Franklin was passing intelligence reports on Iran to -- can threaten a law suit in an attempt to intimidate and silence University of Michigan's Professor of History Juan Cole.
(See: http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/intimidation-by-israeli-linked-html )


Part 6: There is a purge occuring at the CIA. It is, not surprisingly, closely connected to the issues discussed in the Plame Threads. This administration continues to distort the true nature of the CIA's warnings about Iraq and the "war on terror." For example, former director George Tenant repeatedly warned Stephen Hadley to remove the yellow cake misinformation from the president's State of the Union address. Also, footnotes from the Intelligence Communities' official estimates on WMDs in Iraq show that the administration's claims about the "slam dunk" are a misrepresentation at best. There were also numerous warnings about the consequences of invading Iraq that were ignored. The mainstream media plays a role: Wesley Clark, who warned the administration of exactly what has come to pass, was generally ignored by the same media that puts forth a loud-mouthed fool like Sean Hannity as an "expert" in military affairs.

In his book, Joseph Wilson tells of the Vice President's efforts to bully the CIA to get the "intelligence" he wanted on Iraq. Wilson also warns of Cheney's attempts to create his own intelligence/spy ring through the White House and department of Defense. This was for the intended benefit of the neocons who advocated the invasion of Iraq long before 9-11. This is the group that Larry Franklin worked for, when he passed intelligence reports on Iran to the Israeli front. It is reasonable to suspect that Valerie Plame may have been considered a threat by this group.

Porter Goss made light of the Plame case when he was in congress. Goss, who had been a CIA employee for many years before "retiring" to run a newspaper in Florida, then "retired" from the media to serve as an over-seer of intelligence matters in congress. He was selected by George Bush to direct the CIA earlier this year. Another I Ching connection!

Goss has been in the news for forcing top level CIA employees to retire or quit. Some, like Michael Scheuer, were the focus of Dick Cheney's dislike. Scheuer was the agencies' leading expert on bin Laden, who wrote the book "Imperial Hubris" that exposed the administration's incompetence (or much worse) in fighting the "war on terrorism."

Others who have left include acting Director John McLaughlin; Executive Director A.B. Krongard; and DO chief Stephen Kappes and his deputy, Michael Sulick. All four men are highly respected, honorable public servants. Kappes and Sulick, from the clandestine service's Directorate of Operations, are legendary figures in the Intelligence Community. They would be difficult to replace under any circumstance.

Goss has selected one of his friends to serve as the Directorate of Operations. This fellow used to serve as the chief of espionage in Latin America, until he was removed from that "post in 1997, after a CIA inspector general's report criticized him for 'a remarkable lack of judgement.' " The officer had attempted to intevene in the case of a narcotics trafficer who was arrested in the Dominican Republic. (New York Times; 11-16-04; page A16)

Goss's top aide, Patrick Murray, reportedly makes Karl Rove seem like a stand-up guy. Several top CIA officials have quit despite Goss's asking them to stay on, because they find Murray so offensive. And Goss was going to appoint his friend Michael Kostin as CI Executive Director, because Porter knew this fellow could "bring home the bacon." The problem was that he had actually been arrested for shoplifting a pound of bacon; when this was revealed to the press, the appointment was aborted. (TIME; 11-29-04; page 26)


Part 7: As I write this, MSNBC reports that two more high-level CI officials have decided to leave the agency today. MSNBC reports that Goss may target up to 80 employees.

"Anytime you've got top people dropping like flies when we're facing serious risks, you have to be concerned," Senator Evan Bayh, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, told TIME. "Goss and his team came in thinking some substantial changes needed to be made. Even assuming that's true, it needs to be implemented in a way that doesn't impair our functioning in time of war."

The TIME article noted, "It has been difficult to tell if Goss was orchestrating a loyalty purge or making an example of some of the CIA's best operatives. Either way, Goss has unleashed a spectacle that must at least amuse the likes of Osama bin Laden." (TIME; 11-29-04; page24)

[BeHereNow]

1. Talk about COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS!

I have been singing that song for the last three days.
It is in my head and WON'T leave....
How strange to see you post it...
BHN

[H2O Man]

11. Not strange at all ......

when you don't think about it. Great song.

[indigobusiness]

2. Another Waterman Opus

Let me set aside Ulysses, and take this on.

I poured over it and found the last bit particularly interesting.

It supports my contention that we are just being given time to destroy ourselves.

edit- Perfect song.

[H2O Man]

12. I like the version

on the anthology CDs; I believe it was done on his 26th birthday.

[indigobusiness]

18. I think I know that version.

Every version by everyone gets to me.

Something so compelling about the evocative imagery of emotional guitar wrapped in that sound.

[H2O Man]

19. I like the acoustic version ...

And found it this morning. Anthology #3, disc 1, song 16. From the notes: "Having withheld his own new compositions since the White Album sessions started eight weeks earlier, George Harrison waited no longer, and recorded this eloquent demo of While My Guitar Gently Weeps, the first of five songs he contributed to the growing collection. The song would undergo two re-makes between this date (7-25-68) and 6 September, when the master was completed, and became significantly heavier in the process -- the final version featuring a lead guitar track played by guest Eric Clapton. This first studio recording could scarcely be more different, George singing live to his own acoustic guitar accompaniment (augmented by an organ part played by Paul), and incorporating an additional verse omitted from later versions."

I often tell my sons that all you need is an acoustic guitar, but they are convinced that everything is better electric.

[indigobusiness]

29. Now you've got me going.

Never heard the accoustic version. And it's high time I checked out the Anthology.

There was a time I was known as 'Most likely to be locked up for Beatlemania', but I let it wane, considerably, after John was shot.

I just had to let it go.

[H2O Man]

33. Most days I listen to some

of the re-released "All Things Must Pass" CD set, which has George's final versions of some great songs, such as "Beware of Darkness." Also the Lennon Anthology is fantastic. Yoko just released "Acoustic," right in time for the holiday. It is mainly a lot from the anthology collection, with just enough unreleased music to force old & moldy collectors to buy it.

I'm still looking for a "bootleg" version of Help! that is just John on an acoustic guitar, playing it at the slower pace he intended. Paul and George Martin made it into the faster, louder song, which is good .... but John on acoustic is how it should be done.

[indigobusiness]

36. "Every time I'm almost out, they pull me back in." Michael Corleone

You are stirring me up.

I always felt Help wasn't quite right. A slower version makes sense. I've got to get back in and dig around in the "new" material.

I have the Lennon boxed set that Yoko put together a few years back. Studio dialog and out-takes always fascinate me.

[H2O Man]

42. "Serve Yourself"

from the "Wonsaponatime" CD (selections from the Anthology, plus one) is one of the funniest things John ever did. He had a great sense of humor.

[indigobusiness]

43. "You've got to serve somebody."

Dylan was always sparking John's irreverent humor. I suspect these are related.

Got to buy that Anthology!

[H2O Man]

45. I think that while he

had respected Bob, the "serve somebody" phase made him chuckle.

"Lord, take this make-up off of me
I said Lordy, Lordy, Lordy
take this make up off of me
It's bad enough on the beach
But it's worse in the sea.

Because I'm .... knocking on heaven's door
Because I'm .... looking for my mom

I said Mom, takes these guns away from me
I said Ma, take these guns away from me
I got so thin
they're draggin' me down on my knees.

I been here so long I almost forgot my name
I said I been here so long
I almost forgot my name
but as long as I keep touring
I can always keep gainin' fame ....."

[indigobusiness]

46. I'll be darned.

I suspect he was having fun with form more than content.

Amazing.



Are you in this picture?

[H2O Man]

53. When Dylan played at MSG

for the "Hurricane" benefit, he pasted on some ugly make-up. If you listen to the last song on disc 2 of the Rolling Thunder Revue, from the "bootleg series Vol 5, Dylan's 1975 version of "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" may well be the source of the Lennon song. John would have been impressed by Bob's new "style."

The anthology has some hilarious spoofs of Harrison, too.

[indigobusiness]

56. I remember that 'Pale Face' stage. It was insufferable.

You couldn't make out a word he sang when I saw him in Dallas.

John was a tricky wit. He sure didn't suffer fools gladly. Nor did he cut the pompous or the pretentious any slack. But he was a real champion of the little-guy and the guileless...God love him.

How did he send up George?

[H2O Man]

58. The best one was the Rishi Kesh song ....

George had ignored any influence that John had on his career when he wrote "I-Me-Mine" the year John was killed. If memory serves me correctly, this was not that long after the album "Blow Away" was released, which was an up-beat, kind of light LP. (I believe it had some songs George wanted on the White Album, but was upset John and Paul got so much more space. A number of the better ones were on All Things Must Pass; a few were left over for years.)

A couple verses from a song that is as light as only John could be:

"All you need to do
is say a little word
I know it sounds absurb
But it's true
The magic's in the Mantra
We'll give you all the answers
So swallow this
That's all you've got to do

Everything you need is here
And everything that's not here
Is not there
And yet there's something missing
In this God Almighty plan
Could it be you need a woman?"

[scrantonlib17]

80. Yeah

I love the Anthology version. I think it i better than the White Album version.

[Swamp Rat]

3. Whoa! I'm listening right now!!!

:o

[H2O Man]

14. DU choir practice!

I notice the news is now saying two more are resigning, for a total of four today alone.

[DeepModem Mom]

4. So has the cabal done what we didn't think possible --

taken on the CIA, with the cabal the victor, and the CIA the vanquished?

And are we without protection in the area of security, as in so many others?

[H2O Man]

13. Another quote from the TIME article:

"The CIA's permanent bureaucracy plays hardball," says an intelligence committee staff member. "They're trained to do that, to undermine and spy on foreign governments, to run agents, and when they turn those talents to politics in Washington, they can be very tough and very formidable." (11-29; page 27)

[lovuian]

5. I think Bush is at War with the CIA and I wouldn't want to

tick these people off!!!

:crazy:

[shadowknows69]

137. dad? little help?

George the elder will help GW with that fight. These guys may just look like Texas cowboys but they aint playin folks. There is such a web of control and corruption they've seeded throughout the halls of power in this country I don't know that there's enough money left in the world to bribe them back to the light(the media, congress, John Kerry etc. etc.)

[coeur_de_lion]

6. As usual Waterman you have done a fabulous job of summarizing

the core issues in this case and putting them in perspective. It's cool because if I ever want to get caught up on the Plame case all I have to do is find your thread!

I am very worried that the case will be buried in all of the Bush machine manipulations of our justice system. All we can do, I guess, is hope that Fitzgerald prevails. If there is a God then Fitzgerald will uncover *all* the crimes that have been committed in this case and actually prosecute the criminals. That certainly isn't happening to the evil servants of Bush in any other scenario.

Thanks once again, H2O, for helping to uncomplicate the Plame case for me. Thanks for all that you do for us, really. :loveya: We have all been slapped around so much by this crooked administration that we lose hope. When you feel hopeless there is the tendency to only see the negative side of things. It helps to see this issue in the larger context of what the * cabal is trying to accomplish. I thought at the beginning of the "Plame Threads" that this case had the best chance of taking out some key members of the * administration. I still think so. But now I also have a better understanding of the broader issues at stake, thanks to your good self.

:hug:

All that being said, where did you come up with those lyrics for "My Guitar Gently Weeps"? I had never heard that part of the song before so I did a search and this is what I found:

I look at you all see the love there that's sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps
I look at the floor and i see it needs sweeping
Still my guitar gently weeps
I don't know why nobody told you how to unfold your love
I don't know how someone controlled you
They bought and sold you.

I look at the world and i notice it's turning
While my guitar gently weeps
With every mistake we must surely be learning
Still my guitar gently weeps
I dont know how you where diverted
You where perverted too
I dont know how you where inverted
No one alerted you.

I look at you all see the love there that's sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps
Look at you all . . .
Still my guitar gently weeps

Are the lyrics you posted part of some later version of the song?

[dweller]

8. sourced in Part I above

Some of the original lyrics to the song are found in George's book
"I-Me-Mine"


dp

[coeur_de_lion]

9. thanks! I haven't read the book -- I should, because I really admire

George. I'll go and look it up.

[coeur_de_lion]

7. So I'm going to ask my question about the WP article again --

The article seems to suggest that there might not have been any crime committed by the White House -- confusing --

"The timing could be a critical element in assessing whether classified information was illegally disclosed. If White House aides directed reporters to information that had already been published by Novak, they may not have disclosed classified information."

That doesn't make sense to me -- the White House is the *source* for Novak's article! How could they have leaked info "that had already been leaked by Novak" when they were the ones who told Novak about Plame?

Are they actually trying to disassociate themselves from Novak now? Will they pretend he is the only one who committed a crime?

[H2O Man]

15. My guess is

that they are trying to confuse the issues. Novak wrote that White House officials told him that Plame was a CI employee; it'll likely not fool anyone if they now claim they first learned about her job by reading Novak's article before it was published.

[TexasChick]

47. Ahh, these treasonous asses better not try to play that game! They're

not fooling anyone! Oh, wait, over 50 million people did vote for the Chimp, didn't they? Crap!

My Lord, folks, this country is going to hell in a handbasket! There's no stopping these neocons now! :cry:

[blondeatlast]

21. Did you also notice that it was allegedly leaked to Novak--get ready; this

sent all my alarms off--"IN PASSING?"

"In passing?" The name of an undercover CIA agent, "in passing?" To a longtime, very well-known, TV "journalist" with ancient Washington insider connections?

"In passing?" Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

[H2O Man]

22. I had the pleasure

of doing a number of "jail" and "batterers'" groups as part of the forensic end of psychiatric social work. These guys aren't particularly talented liars. Either they are extremely confident that no matter what Fitzgerald does, the president will pardon them; or this is part of a weak "cover story" that will protect Rove while sacrificing a couple lower-level guys; or they simply aren't much different than the stupidest, most anti-social criminals that are found in every county jail.

In group, when one or more of the boys would tell this type of lie, it would indicate that they weren't quite ready to take any significant step towards changing their thinking or their ways.

I would venture that Patrick "the Bulldog" Fitzgerald is not amused by this smug and disrespectful attitude. It amazes me that the media continues to project a patriotic image of these low-lifes. This was a case where the democratic party could easily have shown the administration to be in the moral gutter on.

[coeur_de_lion]

28. yeah, the good old Washington Post

Whatever happened to the days of Woodward and Bernstein? They don't seem to be interested in breaking an important story anymore. They have become whores to the * regime.

Bastards. That is crap reporting if I ever saw it.

[Me.]

10. All I Can Say

at this point is, "What kind of turkey did you eat yesterday? It had to be organic." This is wonderful, complete in it's making of the case of the evil(there can be no other word) inherent in the administration. We've been hanging onto Plame and related scandals in the hope that it will cure this cancer before it eats us alive. We cannot let go, for at this point, there are few hopes left.

Just finished Le Carre's book, "Absolute Friends", his rage and lament against what is happening. He also layers scorn upon the media, in particular, a writer at the NT Times, he calls Sally. It is also the contention of the book that neo-con intelligence (sorry for the oxymoron) and Riyadh are two horses from the same stable, and that they have instigated terrorists activities in order to bring the world to a penitent position, crawling to the WH door.

[H2O Man]

16. "What kind of turkey did

you eat yesterday?" Well, Cold Turkey, of course.

"Yesterday" was Paul's, of course, though I prefer John's lyrics:

"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be
Now that I've become an amputee...."

[Me.]

17. And It's Got Me On The Run...

Theme song of Plame conspirators when the pipers price is paid. Their temperatures will be rising as time moves on.

[H2O Man]

20. Lies in the News!!!

Joseph Perkins, of the San Diego Union-Tribune, has wrote an article that indicates Mr. Perkins is cut from the same cloth as Robert Novak. Titled "CIA has become too political," Mr. Perkins states that, "Wilson and Scheuer and Pillar should have kept their thoughts to themselves, and out of the newspapers, out of bookstores, and off the speaking circuit. They have brought disrepute upon the CIA."

Mr. Perkins' e-mail address is included in the article, which can be found by googling "Plame," or try:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041127/OPINION/111270007/-1/opinion

[sattahipdeep]

23. Krongard honorable....Horse Shite. n/t

[H2O Man]

25. While your opinion of him

may be different, I suspect that you will find his replacement to be significantly less attractive.

[sattahipdeep]

26. Rattlesnake Highway

Day of the Dead: The Haunting of
the White House
By Cynthia McKinney and Catherine Austin
Fitts
Nov 2, 2004, 07:46

Something is rising from the ashes of September 11: the
spectre of questions that will haunt our country until answered.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_13213.shtml

Fearing slow death, a retired city judge takes his own life
....
"He was pretty rational, said AB "Buzzy" Krongard, a childhood friend who is former CIA
executive director and former chairman and chief executive of Alex. ...
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.md.hammerman12nov12,1,6996344.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[H2O Man]

32. Interesting ....

I think that there is a huge amount of questionable information on 9-11 that needs to be openly investigated, and the truth is that the 9-11 Commission did not seem prepared to do that. I think that this country needs an investigation that will lay the cards on the table, and answer as many of the questions raised by intelligent, concerned, informed, and patriotic Americans as is possible .... no matter who gets embarassed, or found to be at fault. It's hard for me to see the country as being able to begin to heal and move forward until that is done. And I do not think that this administration has the moral capacity to tell the truth, much less support any effort by others to do so.

The second link you posted didn't connect to an article, but I'd be curious what else was in the article you had intended to link to.

[sattahipdeep]

104. Because she dared to ask tough questions

McKinney was battered throughout the early months of
the 2002 election season by right-wing political operatives
and their allies in major media - as well as conservative
Democrats - because she dared to ask tough questions
about what members of the Bush administration knew
before Sept. 11, 2001, about the threat of terrorist attacks.

....
Conservative apologists for National Security Adviser
Condoleezza Rice, the most thoroughly discredited
nominee for secretary of state in memory, are trying to
thwart criticism of her selection by suggesting that they
are aghast at the notion that liberal cartoonists and
commentators would aggressively challenge the record of
this "accomplished African-American woman."

http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/index.php?ntid=18952&ntpid=1

....
But the notion that conservative outrage over attacks on
Rice is rooted in respect for the accomplishments of
African-American women is a stretch. Barely two years
ago, the same people who are now defending Rice were
busy attacking Cynthia McKinney - despite the fact that
McKinney, then a member of Congress, was by most
reasonable measures a far more accomplished
African-American woman than Rice.



McKinney will again be challenging the Bush administration's
lies and misdeeds. And you can bet that the same conservatives
who are so busy defending Rice's "honor" will be slandering McKinney.

[chicagiana]

139. Don't forget the job they did on Carol Mosely Braun ...

Accomplished women of color who worked their way from nothing are slandered and harassed. Codelled black women who are promoted for their willngness to be "their kind of nigger" are celebrated and championed.

[H2O Man]

24. This is extremely important!

This was sent to me from one of the Plame Threads' best friends, Merh. It was brought up on a couple other threads; however, I think that our group might find it fits with our subject matter quite well.

The article is by Wayne Madsen, a former Operations Officer in the Navy, who was also a temporary special agent for some FBI & NIS investigations. It is one of the most important articles that has been posted on DU/ the internet. As you read it (perhaps you already have) keep in mind that this is true. This is what has happened in America in 2004.

Let's hope I get the link right! See:

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112504Madsen/112504madsen.html

[Me.]

27. Two Horses From The Same Stable

I'm glad those technicians got screwed! What a despicable thing to agree to. What happens to the whole kit and caboodle if OBL gets his way and brings the house of Saud down?

[coeur_de_lion]

30. I read the article on another thread

and I believe every word of it. I wonder if Keith Olbermann will talk about it on his show. I know that a couple of people already emailed him the article. He seems to be one of the very few people who is willing to take on this vote fraud issue.

I know that there is no way * could have won that election without some kind of cheating. I think that the fraud took many forms, and hacking the voting machines was just part of it. They skimmed votes every way that they could, so they could give * his so-called "man date."

I wonder if the media whores are going to let him get away with it. I am so saddened by people (McCain, for one) who used to be honest participating in the crimes of the * cabal. The press, the politicians, everybody is turning a blind eye. It seems so hopeless right now, but *maybe* there will be enough brave souls to expose the massive corruption of * and his sicko deputies.

Some people think that * didn't know that the vote was hacked and really believes that he got the popular vote. I am not buying it. That sick pup knew about every detail of it.

[coeur_de_lion]

31. follow-up article by Madsen

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112604Madsen/112604madsen.html
<<snip>>
November 26, 2004—Additional information on the buying of vote riggers with Saudi and former Enron funds has been obtained. The epicenter for the vote rigging operation is Dallas, Texas, and the operation may involve retired FBI agents who used a well-established "good ole boy" network to arrange for access to polling precincts by electronic voting machine technicians who took advantage of various November 2 security "lockdowns" to illegally alter the tabulation of votes in favor of Bush. Some of the retired agents may have used courtesy credentials issued upon retirement to fool unsuspecting polling place workers.

The cost of the operation was estimated at $29 million with the money sent via a circuitous network of offshore trust companies and shell activities. This reporter has obtained a copy of a bank check for $29,600,000 that was allegedly sent to cover the cost of the Texas-based vote rigging operation. The check is dated October 22, 2004, and was made payable to "Five Star Investment Ltd.," a trust said to have long connections to Saudi-funded operations in Texas and around the world. The payer is identified as "Equity Financial Trust," a Houston-based "brass plate" and post office box entity tied to offshore Cook Islands "folding tent" accounts used to hide away profits amassed by the former Enron as well as Saudi financiers.

On October 6, 2004, some two weeks before Equity Financial Trust transferred the money to Five Star Investment Ltd., the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions for Canada listed Equity Financial Trust, along with Bankers Financial and Security Trust, Falcon Financial and Trust, and Unity Virtual Trust Group as "unauthorized financial institutions." In fact, the check for $29.6 million, which is marked "Not to exceed fifty million dollars," is drawn on the Laurentian Bank of Canada's Toronto branch. Its serial number is 317675450 3 and the bank number is 23-97/1020. The bank instrument is issued by Integrated Payment Systems, Inc. of Englewood, Colorado, and Bank One, NA, Denver, Colorado.

It is noteworthy that a number of companies operated by past Bush campaign contributor Pierre Falcone, under criminal investigation in France for weapons smuggling in Angola, are called "Falcon." Several non-governmental organizations, including Global Witness, have tied Falcone to questionable Halliburton activities when Vice President Dick Cheney headed the firm.
<<snip>>

Pretty gosh-darn interesting, no?

[H2O Man]

34. Yes, indeed!

Very gosh-darned interesting. Extra much so.

[bobbieinok]

48. MAJOR PROBLEM with this story.....it's 'claims' but no 'names'

I believe it, you believe it BUT

WHERE'S THE PROOF?? WHERE ARE THE NAMES, DATES, FINANCIAL RECORDS, CONFESSIONS????

Without some tangibles it's just 'a story'.

[kohodog]

35. Let's hope this makes the light of day.

The media has a habit if ignoring important stories, and this will take more than a sound bite to get attention.

It looks like the neocon struggle for consolidating power is an attempt to remove the vestiges of the Rockefeller oil interests. The gutting of the CIA may be part of this as well as we move towards a more strident, heavy handed agenda for oil and Empire and the Bush cabal consolidates power.

The pattern is the same as with Iran Contra, illegal arms trading, drug money to launder and fund some of the darker enterprises. Perhaps the greatest difference and the greatest danger we face today is the compliant media. The press was to be the fourth estate to be a watchdog to hold the government to task. Today they are simply lap dogs.

I highly recommend the book "Into the Buzzsaw," a compilation of stories written by investigative journalists about the myth of the free press. It is edited by Kristina Borjesson and is extremely enlightening about how the powers that be are controlling and muzzling writers who dare to dig a little too deep.

[H2O Man]

39. I am under the impression

that at least two people at MSNBC are very much aware of this.

[coeur_de_lion]

40. other articles by Madsen re: Plame

a blast from the past . . . . .

COUP D'ETAT: The Real Reason Tenet and Pavitt Resigned from the
CIA on June 3rd and 4th
Bush, Cheney Indictments in Plame Case Looming
by Michael C. Ruppert and Wayne Madsen JUNE 8, 2004
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060804_coup_detat.html

GRAND JURY WILL SOON ISSUE EXPLOSIVE INDICTMENTS by Wayne Madsen June 25, 2004
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/062504_grand_jury.shtml
<<snip>>
Washington, DC. Well-placed U.S. government sources have revealed that the secret grand jury, led by special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, will soon issue explosive indictments in the criminal investigation of who leaked the name of Valerie E. Plame, a CIA clandestine agent and wife of former U.S. Ambassador Joe Wilson, to members of the media. On June 24, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald interviewed President Bush at the White House for 70 minutes, an indication that Fitzgerald's investigation is nearing completion and that indictments may be imminent. Bush was seated with his recently-hired criminal defense attorney, Jim Sharp, during the interview.

U.S. intelligence sources have also said that Fitzgerald's investigation has gone far beyond the mere leaking of Plame's name, itself a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, but has expanded to look into the exposure of Plame's colleagues who worked under the cover of a CIA firm called Brewster, Jennings & Associates. The "brass plate" CIA proprietary had offices in Boston and Washington, DC. Active since 1994, Brewster-Jennings was instrumental in tracking the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) and had agents or correspondents in a number of countries including Iraq, North Korea, Belarus, Russia, South Africa, Iran, Israel, China, Pakistan, Congo (Kinshasa), India, Taiwan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, and Malaysia. By releasing Valerie Plame’s name, other agents' non-official covers were blown and the lives of U.S. operatives within foreign governments and businesses may have been placed in danger. Therefore, Fitzgerald's investigation has reportedly been expanded to include the issue of whether members of the staffs of President Bush and Vice President Cheney, Cheney and Bush themselves, the National Security Council, and the Departments of Defense and State, may have violated more serious espionage laws.

In July 2003, the covert operations of Plame and her Brewster-Jennings colleagues were rolled up as a result of the White House leak to columnist Robert Novak and other journalists. Observers believe the White House was retaliating for the report by Wilson that the administration was incorrect when it stated that Iraq was shopping for "yellow cake" uranium in Niger. On behalf of the CIA, Wilson visited Niger prior to the Iraq war and determined that the administration's evidence was based on erroneous information and falsified documents.

The special prosecutor has been focusing on Bush, Cheney, presidential counselor Karl Rove, Cheney's chief of staff Lewis I. ("Scooter") Libby, Cheney assistants David Wurmser and John Hannah, and National Security Council officials Elliott Abrams and Stephen Hadley. Recently, CIA Director George Tenet and Plame's ultimate boss, Deputy Director of Operations James Pavitt, suddenly resigned within hours of one another. Intelligence sources have said the two have been cooperating with Fitzgerald's investigation of the Plame/Brewster-Jennings leak and the damage to U.S. clandestine operations which globally track the flow of WMDs.
<<snip>>

[H2O Man]

41. It's hard to believe

that Eliot Abrams would be involved in anything like this!

[coeur_de_lion]

61. Smart ass.

Henry Kissinger Still Alive: Politics is a dirty game, yet it's a game worth playing
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/12/03/40293.html
<<snip>>
The national Security adviser of the American president stated that Abrams would be in charge of Arab and Israeli relations as well as the efforts to achieve peace in the region. Elliot Abrams backed the armed struggle of Nicaraguan counterrevolutionaries against the Sandy government during 1980-1988, during Ronald Reagan-s administration. In 1991, Abrams was found guilty of concealing information from the US Congress in 1986 pertaining to secret deliveries of weapons to Nicaragua. However, in 1992, President George Bush I withdrew the conviction of Elliot Abrams.
<<snip>>

[H2O Man]

62. I've often felt

that John Ashcroft's wonderful song, "Soar Like An Eagle" is a tribute to this patriotic hero, Eliot Abrams. It could be.

[coeur_de_lion]

65. Yeah I'm sure it is, H.

Bush sure does employ a collection of misfits, losers and criminals.
Ashcroft lost a senate race to a dead man. Abrams was knee-deep in Iran Contra. Condi "Sweetness" Rice is an habitual liar. Porter Goss is a partisan hack who is now in charge of turning the CIA into a Republican lie machine. I would go on but I'm too tired . . . .

When will it end?

[TexasChick]

51. coeur_de_lion, what a brilliant first link! Thank you! I do have a few

questions though. Am I getting the jest of this article right for the most part that people leaving the CIA will keep the Chimp and Satan Cheney from being able to invoke this "executive privilege" thing? If so, that is brilliant!

I knew the Chimp and Satan had retained a lawyer the year before. But, in essence, since the Chimp has gotten rid of the disloyal liberals in the CIA, this won't matter anymore, right? They can subpoena the one people he has gotten rid of to testify, can't they, or use them as part of the investigation? Unfortunately, I couldn't get Waxman's link to work; the one that has the evidence.

And, feast your eyes on this gem:

On July 14th Novak published the column outing Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame. As a result, any criminal investigation of the Plame leak will also go into the Niger documents and any crimes committed which are materially related to Plame's exposure.

Well, I think I finally understand what Water Man has been telling us!

[coeur_de_lion]

63. Here is the Waxman link

http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20041001120136-07195.pdf
The bit about Plame is on page 3 of the PDF document.

I don't understand what you mean by the resignations and that stopping the * Admin from invoking executive priviledge. Do you mean that they can't prevent Tenet and Pavitt from testifying because they no longer work for the CIA? Or do you mean that * and Cheney will try to avoid testifying by invoking executive priviledge?

The Madsen article referred to a John Dean article, in which John Dean said this:
"I raised the issue of whether the President might be able to invoke executive privilege as to this information. But the attorney I consulted - who is well versed in this area of law - opined that "Neither 'outing' Plame, nor covering for the perpetrators would seem to fall within the scope of any executive privilege that I am aware of."

John Dean's full article is here:
http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/dean/20040604.html

Is that what you were talking about?

More stuff re: Plame on the findlaw website -- forgive me if this was posted in an earlier thread.
White House Counsel Alberto Gonzalez's Sept. 30, 2003 Follow-Up Email to all White House -- Employees To Preserve Materials Relevant to Possible Leak of CIA Agent's Identity
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/whouse/gonzalez93003-2email.html

White House Counsel Alberto Gonzalez's Oct. 3, 2003 Memo to all
White House Employees About Deadline to Provide Documents to Counsel
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/whouse/gonzalez100303email.html

The Leak of CIA Agent Valerie Plame Wilson's Identity:
Why Competing Congressional and Special Counsel Investigations Will Inevitably Cause Problems By JOHN W. DEAN Friday, Jan. 30, 2004
http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/dean/20040130.html

[TexasChick]

64. Thanks for the Waxman link..I'll check it out. Yes, I was kind of getting

the hunch that the article was implying that the smirking Chimp and Satan Cheney can't invoke that executive priviledge thing if all these CIA agents are gone and no longer governmental agents...sort of like setting up a trap against the Chimp and Satan, if you will. Am I close? Thanks for the other links as well.

[coeur_de_lion]

67. That may be . . .

But I don't think Tenet or Pavitt could have avoided testifying or cooperating whether they were still with the CIA or not. Pavitt was her boss. Tenet was Pavitt's boss. They were right in the middle of it.

The article implied that it was to be a CIA coup d'etat removing Bush and Cheney before the RNC in August, which didn't happen. They could be wrong about this vote-hacking scheme too.

I remember what happened with Dan Rather and I hope that the same thing doesn't happen to Madsen. He was a Naval intelligence officer and served in the Natl. Security Agency for Reagan. That would indicate that he knows a valid story when he sees one, or he *should* know. He seems to have miraculously turned up all kinds of hard evidence now, bank account numbers and whatnot. Let's hope Olbermann is forced to eat crow when he reads the latest article by Madsen. Cross your fingers. Me, I'm gonna do a Novena to Saint Jude -- the saint of the impossible -- in the hope that * gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar this time.

I don't know about you but I want my country back.

[TexasChick]

70. I'm with you totally there, I've been wanting this country back for the

last four effin' years! I cry a lot because I don't think this country can make it another four years with this asshat in the WH!

Speaking of Madsen, have you read this dude's diary at DailyKOS:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/27/233424/59


He seems real skeptical of Madsen's story, but I'm still undecided. He says there's something about the account numbers on the check Madsen has that doesn't coincide with the Canadian bank's account numbers. He called them.

But, my problem with the story is that I can't see the Chimp people being really dumb and not paying the technicians what they wanted, especially when it has to do with something so risky as rigging an election. I would think that they would have known the technicians would become whistleblowers if they weren't paid adequately. I wish these technicians would come forward, but maybe Madsen isn't telling us all he knows. This will probably be like Watergate, a trickle here and a trickle there in the media.

[coeur_de_lion]

71. He is forwarding his questions to Madsen. That should be interesting

to follow up on. Thanks for that link. I can always check back with Dailykos to see if there is an update.

I don't know, I want to believe Madsen but it all seems too outrageous. I am going to keep very careful track of Madsen's future articles. I would love to know who he relies on as sources within the * Admin. He always seems to have that little something extra in his stories that makes me think someone in the Whitehouse is feeding him information. I'm talking about the Plame investigation as well as this recent vote fraud issue. It will be an interesting week next week.

[H2O Man]

74. Everything in the articles

may not be a "fact." There are likely numerous errors. And those are very important to keep in mind.

Perhaps more important is that much of the article is the truth. Keith O. from MSNBC questions the number of polling places that were actually closed due to people posing as either FBI or Homeland Security; he says that rather than many, there was only one known for sure. Good point. One was closed for sure. Who could pull that off? Who would want to?

I can tell you for sure that there were other strange things occuring in the campaign. I've spoken to a few people from DU about a "buglary" that occured in a headquarters near Philly; I believe the community was Waterville. Computer hard drives stolen from ACT. I know that fairly high-ranking people from the Kerry campaign knew, because I took part in a conference call where I helped get the information to them. Nothing came of it. One Kerry official told me of a number of dirty tricks occuring in 10 contested states. I am saying in all seriousness that it sent chills through me, because it sounded like Watergate to me. Again, who could do these things? And who would want to?

[coeur_de_lion]

75. If Kerry's people knew all about this, why are they keeping a lid on it?

Are they waiting until there is more proof and then they will blow the lid off it? Or do they just think that they can't prove anything so they are keeping their mouths shut?

I know who benefited from all those burglaries and dirty tricks. But how does Kerry benefit from keeping it quiet? What is the deal there?

I read Olbermann's blog and he seems very skeptical. I hope he gets together with Madsen and hashes it out.

It will be an interesting week!

[H2O Man]

76. Good questions .....

and I admit that I do not have a good answer. I'd like to think that things would be different if I were involved at a high level in a campaign.

One thing that I suspect has to do with the nature of the Senate, which defines Kerry's last 20 years of life. It is, in most ways, similar to the bar with attorneys. Lawyers swear an oath, so to speak, to the brotherhood of attorneys. As a rule, they pledge to be true to the court system, rather than to "justice" .... and certainly more than to clients. (I'm am active in "men's rights" in regard to things such as custody rights, and also examining "domestic violence." But I know that women attorneys are frequently marginalized career-wise, because they often believe in justice and work primarily for their clients. I've seen this too many times to not recognize it is a huge flaw in the legal system. I believe it may be equally true in both houses of congress.)

Anyhow, the senate is too often a "gentlemen's debating society." Rules of proper behavior stifle true debate. The search for truth is lost in layers of ritualized etiquette. And I believe that -- as the single person most responsible for the tactics of his campaign -- Kerry became the gentleman in the entirely wrong set of circumstances. We wanted .... heck, we needed, even demanded, that he be the soldier who led his troops in Vietnam, and the warrior that confronted the lies in American society when he came home. But people change, and John Kerry is far more the lawyer and senator than the soldier and warrior.

[coeur_de_lion]

77. There has been a running debate on DU about whether Kerry has

given up on the recounts, or is merely waiting for better evidence to come in before he goes public. Some say he has abandoned us, some say he is working behind the scenes. I really don't know what to think. But if what you say is true then it needs to get out there.

Tell you what -- can you write up everything you know about? I'll send it to Olbermann. Can't hurt. Shoot, I'll send it to Kerry's people. They have a "report voting problems" thing on their website.

http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/

No harm in sending reports of tampering.

I'm at a loss to explain his silence. Not just him, but Michael Moore, Teresa Kerry, and all those other outspoken democrats who were active before 11/2.

[Me.]

78. Some Russians Friends Were Over

the other night and we were having discussion about our elections and the one in the Ukraine, and I was saying how there they were in the streets and here everyone just went back to their jobs. And one of them said, aah, but the real difference was that Kerry conceded and the man in the Ukraine didn't. I still have a hard time equating the smiling man who conceded with a fighter who is standing by us. I would love to be wrong and have a chorus of "I told you so's" flung back at my face. But at this moment it stills feels like the tent was meekly folded and carried away. I know that people have explained that he has chosen the only course he could and that people are working behind the scenes. But frankly, the silence is deafening and if we are always going to be silenced for the reason that, that is what wisdom dictates, we may be smarting ourselves into the gulags and camps that dictators often bring to the landscape. Freedom of speech was a big issue with the founding fathers for a reason. And isn't it ironic that ***H is speaking up about the fraudulent elections in the Ukraine? As for your idea LionHeart, I think it is up to we the people to speak out, so go for it!

[coeur_de_lion]

79. Yes, the silence is deafening. Not just Kerry's silence but everyone.

Jesse Jackson is very active, Nader (for God's sake!) is active, Badnarik and Cobb. Everybody but Kerry, and Edwards, and Michael Moore, Teresa, even Ted Kennedy. All the main people who you would think based on past history would be screaming fraud from the rooftops. It is hard to stay hopeful. Makes me think that maybe all this fraud stuff is bogus. If it isn't, why won't they speak up?

It is beyond ironic that * is carrying on about the fraud in the Ukraine. It is the height of hypocrisy. I hate that little SOB all the more because of this latest ridiculous stance of his. As if the Ukraine has more of a right to fair elections than we do. If he took his own advice we would have a different president.

[kohodog]

82. I'm glad this discussion is happening.

On the one hand I'd love to see the Madsen stuff prove out, but must admit I'm a little skepical. I'm sure there's truth in it, but some research starts with a question and some starts with a hypothesis. The hypothesis should come after many questions have been asked and answers analysed. I wonder if conclusions reached too quickly and without proper documentation are summarily dismissed by many. I know that I tend to work that way, and have found enough inconsistencies to want to look deeper into Madsen's claims.

The Plame investigation may still prove to generate indictments of this administration because Fitzgerald seems to be taking the time to look under rocks and not jump to conclusions too quickly.

[coeur_de_lion]

83. I talked to someone today who used to work in the intelligence

community. He said to expect heads to roll in about a year or so. He said Fitzgerald is still working very hard on all this stuff and not to expect any major developments for awhile. But definitely, there is a very solid case and there will be indictments.

Frustrating, really, these spooks. He can't tell me anything I can hang my hat on. He also said that * didn't know what was going on, but others pretty high up on the * Admin food chain did, and they were gonna be the ones whose heads would roll. He just retired in June. If things have changed since he retired he might not even be up to speed.

All we can do is continue to follow this stuff.

Without knowing who Madsen's sources are there is no way to tell if his assumptions are correct. My understanding from reading other threads is that Olbermann and Madsen have been put in touch with each other and are going to compare notes. If Olbermann says the story is true then I will believe it.

[H2O Man]

85. read about the Ohio press conference

held by Rev Jesse Jackson. I think it's on the election/results forum.

[coeur_de_lion]

88. I saw it, and it looks very promising. But I'm still reserving my opinion

Someone predicted on a thread a week or so ago that the vote fraud thing would start breaking big now. Looks like he was right! If they can tie this latest "vote shifting" thing to what Madsen is saying that would be great!

[H2O Man]

94. Jesse is talking

about the same basic thing that Madsen is.

[TexasChick]

91. Oh, no, coeur_de_lion! Are you implying that the Chimp won't be

indicted? I guess I will be happy enough if Satan "Go Cheney yourself" Cheney bit the dust, but it would just be oh so sweet to see that smirking Chimp go along with him; him and his bogus mandate!

[Me.]

96. Sounds Promising...

Also, wasn't it said, way back, a couple of thousand Plame posts ago, that with this election there was a schism within the "families", the tri-laterals? Looks like, for the moment at least, the ***H faction prevailed.

[Nordic]

72. Holy shit! That first article is a real mind-popper!

because it all smells true, it all makes perfect sense, and ....

well it can give a person a bit of hope that justice will eventually prevail.

What's taking so long is my big question? I suppose the "election" threw a monkey wrench into things, but now that that's happened, all the predicted resignations are happening.

Wow. If you haven't read it, READ IT NOW

[TexasChick]

49. Water Man, yes, I read this in Merh's thread and all I can say is "OMG"!

I replied in his thread that "IF" this turns out to be true, this is treason in the highest level.

But how stupid of these Bush people to not pay the amounts promised, especially when it comes to rigging the election and risked having disgruntled technicians who would probably blow the whistle in a heartbeat! How ignorant.

And, how ironic that BCCI money is mentioned in the article as well. Geez!! I wonder if there is some way that investigators can trace that money from Enron and such back to the Chimp and his cabal?

This will be interesting, if it appears to be true. And if it is true, will it be further investigated, you know with the Chimp and the Repuketards controlling most of our government?

Did you also noticed that most of what is in the remaining paragraphs of this article is exactly what MM was trying to tell us in Fahrenheit?

[H2O Man]

55. It is the same message

that Michael Moore gave in "F 9-11." I think that is why the rabid right-wing continues to try to make the democratic party reject MM, like he is something to be ashamed of. I like "F 9-11" better than any of his previous works; it is 1000 times more accurate than the report by the 9-11 Commission.

It's similar to Oliver Stone's movie "JFK." Is every single thing in it 100% accurate? Of course not; it's a work of art, and it serves the exact purpose of great art. That movie, by the way, is likewise 1000 times more accurate than the Warren Commission.

[TexasChick]

57. Yes, I agree about Fahrenheit. At times, it was confusing for me, but

thank God I had my sister with me. But, there was one thing she could not answer. And, this is probably why I hate the Saudis. It was the part that showed the guy getting his head chopped off because of the Chimp, at least that's what I understood. Why did that guy get his head chopped off in Saudi Arabia, something MM more said "and it came back to bite George in the ass." WTF was those Saudis problem with this poor guy? It seemed like he was a civil rights activist and was asking too many questions about something. I hate the way they treat their citizens. It's heartening and what is scary more than anything is if these asshats take anymore of our rights away and we question der Fuhrer smirking Chimp, Bush, we will probably meet the same death!

But, WTF was their problem with him? I still pray for that man's soul! What a horrible and scary death because when I was watching it, when that man made the knife do the first cut, the victim sort of went forward and the knife didn't totally chop off his head, but the second one did. God, that was horrible to watch. I don't know why. That scene bothered me more then the war scenes in Iraq. Those Saudi bastards!

[H2O Man]

59. I closed my eyes

at that part .... and a few others. Maybe some other DUers could answer that question better than me .... Things like that are too much for me to watch these days.

[TexasChick]

60. Thanks, Water Man! That's okay. I just thought maybe you knew.

It was a horrifying scene. God be with that man now!

[indigobusiness]

69. That comment is an interesting slice of life

It seems our culture is an actively coarsening one. We live in a brutal land. There are people like you that work on their spiritual selves and find some things too terrible or disturbing to witness. While others view them casually.

Organised Religion might be a pox on the land, but we've got to somehow find a way to unfold our spirit as a people, before grow too cold.



IMHO

[Me.]

68. I Saw An Interview With Stone Recently

And the woman who was interviewing him got rather snotty with him about "JFK" and said that critics panned it as "tinfoil", and it certainly went against the revered findings of the Warren Commission. His answer was, to paraphase, that the Warren Commission's report was a disgrace, and he then said, that what very few understand about his film is that he wasn't giving answers, the film itself was a question (s).

[H2O Man]

73. Interesting.

To reflect on this a bit more, there is the film "The Doors." I think it's great. In my old age, I have a place in my heart for Irish poets that are tormented by the inability to communicate their message; I think that John Lennon was correct when he said Neil Young was wrong in singing that it's better to burn out than fade away, but I think that what happened to Jim was a result of inner pain that fueled his alcoholism. But Ray M. is still really pissed about the film, and if you talk to him, he says he gets furious when he sees the scene of the other guys leaving the party, and letting Jim go to Andy W's party. "We never would have done that," says Ray. Well, in a literal sense, no; but in a literary yes; yes, bud, you guys did not have any idea on "interventions" and even if you had, Jim wanted to die. And even though he hated the image the public assigned him, he still played it until it killed him. So Ray gets hung up on an issue that is minor to the audience, but huge to him.... because Jim left a lot of guilt for those who survived him .... so much so that Ray can't see that the film is a song, more than a biography.

JFK is similar. Stone isn't a moron: he knows that everbody wasn't in on the plot .... but yet so many factors played a role in not intervening afterwards, to expose what really happened, that we again find ourselves quoting Lennon that "a conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words."

Both Jim and John used to hang out with David Peel.

[merh]

50. What a wonderful post.

So glad to see you are still around and haven’t gone on vacation yet! As always, your ability to summarize and enlighten provide such a great service to your fellow DUers. Thank you for this thread and your recap and analysis of the Plame matter and the happenings at the CIA today. I also have to thank you for the kind words about me (even though you know I was the thorn in the side of many in some of the Plame threads).

The below threads have discussions of the Madsen article/investigation. I think you may find these interesting, especially the 2nd link, it is short, but some of the corporate names and connections are intriguing. Olberman’s doubts regarding the Madsen article seem to be referencing the Nov 25 article, as if he has yet to read the Nov. 26 update posted above and discussed at the 1st link. I don’t know if his mind will change if and when he reads the Nov 26 update.

I still believe that there are active members of the CIA and our government that do not like what is happening to our nation and they want to free us from the evil grip of the BFEE as much as we want to be freed. I am hoping that Kerry and others who love our nation as much as we do are investigating all of the election irregularities and are working on all of this in an effort to oust the weed and all of his minions and puppet masters. Maybe that is what angers me the most about some who have been posting on DU lately, they think that they are the only ones that love our nation and alls she stands for. It is as if they are sharing the same type of group think as the fundie Christians share, they alone know what is going on (or know god) and things must be done the way they think they must be done and following their timetable. I know in my heart that there are others working on this and they are doing it quietly and thoroughly. They want the scandal to net as many criminals as they can in an effort to take back our nation and in an effort to put an end to the neo-con agenda. Call me a cockeyed optimistic, but that is what my gut is telling me is happening.

Anyway, thanks again for your wonderful post and helping to keep this issue alive. If you have time, you may want to check out some of the threads below. I love the idea of getting the Canadian press involved in the investigation of this. Let them investigate the Canadian links and maybe they can do the neighborly thing and help us rid ourselves of our bullies that have turned the WH into the brothel that it has become.

Blessings and peace! merh :hug:

Madsen Updates Report
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x81645


Saudis, Enron money helped pay for US rigged election
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1390553


ACTION: Notify *Canadian* Media re: Madsen Story !
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x83136


Olbermann blogs about Madsen info
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x827

[H2O Man]

54. history has a strange way of

dealing with ruthless leaders who become paranoid as a result of their own projecting, then become isolated, and allow only brown-nosed yes-men to surround them. I think it was Mark Twain that said something to the effect of "history doesn't repeat; it rhymes."

[coeur_de_lion]

66. link to Olbermann's response to Madsen's story

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240

So far he is totally not buying it, folks. I wonder what he will think of the follow-up article that Madsen wrote.

[never cry wolf]

37. I worry about Alberto Gonzales

His whole career has been made protecting emperor bunnypants from a legal standpoint, from the Texas death row to Abu Graib.

Why did Asscrap recuse himself?

Not wanting to hype the situation, all Comey said was that Ashcroft withdrew because, in an "abundance of caution," he "believed that his recusal was appropriate based on the totality of the circumstances and the facts and evidence developed at this stage of the investigation." He added later in the press conference that the "recusal is not one of actual conflict of interest that arises normally when someone has a financial interest or something. The issue that he was concerned about was one of appearance."

What facts would raise a serious questions of the appearance of a conflict of interest here? I'd bet that the investigation is focusing on at least one target whom Ashcroft knows more than casually, or works with regularly. After all, Novak did identify his sources as two "senior Administration officials."
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0107-14.htm

Will Gonzales have the same appearance of a conflict of interest, or would he even care of he does? What are the odds that he takes the investigation back, dismisses the need for a special prosecutor or even fires Fitz and installs someone who can be "trusted?"

If the only reason for the special prosecutor was to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest with asscrap, and he is gone, do the rules of the game change?

[H2O Man]

38. John Dean in "Worse Than Watergate"

page 173, footnote: " * A much-rumored source of the leak has been Karl Rove, who was a consultant to Ashcroft during one or more of his political campaigns and the person many believe secured Ashcroft his post as attorney general. For this reason, as soon as the investigation commenced, there were demands that Ashcroft either appoint a special counsel or recuse himself. He stalled as long as possible before finally giving way, sending more signals that he did not want this investigation to get out of hand."

And Joseph Wilson in "The Politics of Truth," page 360: "Finally, almost two weeks later, and nearly two and a half months after Novak's column had exposed Valerie, Justice belatedly advised the CIA that the FBI had begun an investigation. It seemed an extremely sluggish response by the Department of Justice. This coupled with Ashcroft's refusal to recuse himself from the investigation once it finally began, left me, and many others, concerned about the ongoing damage to national security under these lackadaisical conditions. It appeared that politics was wining out and that the administration was intent on sweeping the matter under the rug. As late as December 5, 2003, 'a senior White House official' was quoted in the Financial Times gloating, 'We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one.'"

[bunny planet]

81. I think you are right about this. Gonzales might very well take back the

Plame investigation from Fitz in an effort to prevent the real story and subsequent perp walk from coming out.

[coeur_de_lion]

84. I really don't think he can do that in the middle of a grand jury

investigation.

What do you think, H2O?

[H2O Man]

86. Saturday night massacres

always come back to bite someone.

[TexasChick]

87. Oop, H2O, that one went embarrassingly over my head! What does

that mean?

[H2O Man]

92. I'll try to post a couple links .....

but if they don't work, take a moment to "google" this: Richard Nixon Saturday Night Massacre" to read about one of the most important chapters in our country's history.

**** (link removed; didn't work)


http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Saturday%20Night%20Massacre


On edit: The first one doesn't work here; google to connect to it. There are a number of good articles available.

[TexasChick]

95. Ahh, I think I understand now. I think you are saying that this would

probably backfire if the Chimp tried to fire Fitzgerald. I'm too young to remember Nixon, so it is always interesting to read about Watergate. LOL! My mom never forgets it and says she voted for him too! But, get this, she's a Chimp lover! Oh, the irony if the Chimp goes down in flames with all of this! Ha! She can add another second disappointment to her list of presidential votes!

[H2O Man]

97. Firing a special prosecutor

is a clear signal that a president is guilty. If you study what happened to Nixon, it may be what is coming up for Cheney, as far as the legal process. But the isolated, paranoid business is the fate that awaits George W.

[TexasChick]

102. Did I tell you that you're my hero!!! n/t

[johnhorne]

44. Wow. Simply wow! n/t

[dweller]

52. just a little

:kick:


dp

[coeur_de_lion]

89. H2O CHECK THIS THREAD OUT!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x86907


Q&A w/ Wayne Madsen on Vote Rigging here on DU!

[H2O Man]

99. Yes.

That's good. I've been reading the thread(s). Thanks!

[coeur_de_lion]

90. WAYNE MADSEN POSTING HERE RIGHT NOW:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2760765

[TexasChick]

93. Nevermind, coeur_de_lion! The guy at DailyKOS has updated his/her

diary. I think he/she is now agreeing that the check looks right. Can you reread the diary for me? If all of this is true, my God, it will be a miracle and we can take back our country!!!

Here is the diary link again:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/27/233424/59



Thanks!

[H2O Man]

98. Good news!!!

The Washington Post will carry a story that indicates the two reporters trying to avoid testifying in front of the Plame grand jury have no chance of winning in the appeal on 12-8. See "In Leak Case, Reporters Lack Shield for Sources."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18598-2004Nov28_3.html

[Me.]

100. The Small Mercies Of A Decent Story

This made several good points, and I hope Fitz makes the case without Novakula, so that he doesn't have to offer him immunity.

[coeur_de_lion]

101. Good article. Thanks, H2O

[TexasChick]

103. Yes!!! Time to fess up, media whores, we the people want some

answers!!

[H2O Man]

106. more good news ....

from the European left; see:

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4571

[H2O Man]

107. strange news indeed .....

from Ed & Publisher on lies; see:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000727193

[H2O Man]

108. "reporters under siege..."

has some interesting information. I cannot get the link to work here. Go to google for news about Plame, and it is a new article from reisterguard.com

[Me.]

111. This Is A Great Article...

Maybe "journalists" should be reading it, for a wake up call is in the works for them and it's not coming from Fitz. What fools & villains most of them are.

<<<snip>>>
“With the re-election of Bush, the most media-averse president in recent memory, the siege only figures to get worse.

"My level of concern just keeps accelerating, especially with the announcement of Alberto Gonzales as the (proposed) new attorney general," says Lucy Dalgleish, executive director of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. "He's been the architect of numerous secrecy initiatives at the White House and back when he was in Texas, during Bush's first term as governor.

"Winning the election will give the Bush administration the sense that they can do this with impunity. That means more government workers will become whistle-blowers, leaking things to the press, and the new attorney general will be just as willing (as predecessor John Ashcroft), if not more willing, to subpoena reporters."

I've written several times that I think reporters use too many confidential sources - that the media too easily and too frequently grant anonymity to sources who neither require it nor deserve it. I'm firmly convinced that this practice contributes significantly to the decline in credibility that the media is now suffering.” Cont.



http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/11/28/b1.ed.col.media.1128.html

[Mandate My Ass]

109. At last!!!

They've finally said what I've been saying all along:

Some say that the press's position in the Plame case would be stronger if not for the fact that it started with a government leak allegedly calculated to get even with an in-house critic, Wilson -- not with a leak from an in-house critic intended to expose government wrongdoing.

"This is not to say that the sources should be revealed," said David Rudenstine, dean of the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law. "But here the sources that are at stake represent the government using its power to punish the leaker. . . . It's quite different from the Watergate model."

I disagree with the second paragraph because in this case the source is the criminal, not someone who has exposed criminal activity by others and whose anonymity is to shield them from reprisals by the perps. They are the perps.

Another great thread, H2O Man.

[H2O Man]

110. Thanks!

The difference between the Plame case and a true case of a "whistle blower" is the difference between shit and sugar. This is a classic case of the distortion that makes a criminal look like a victim. I think this may be an important issue for people to address in LTTE etc.

[Me.]

112. Isn't It Also Interesting

that after months of articles decrying the fate of poor journalists and how they are being mis-used we are beginning to see the truth of the matter, as well as objectivity, being printed.

Hey H., what do you attribute this sudden change in tone to?

[H2O Man]

116. I think there are

many good reporters. And they recognize the scam beng played by Miller and some of the others involved in the case.

[Mandate My Ass]

118. Critical mass, perhaps

I think it's the same reason some newspapers and outlets began stating their reservations to Bush's reelection in Oct. They knew many, many people were talking this way and although they never provided anything near the level of analysis and criticism Bushco deserved, they knew if they ignored the elephant (and its droppings) in the living room anymore they would be considered obsolete by their target audience. Their tepid criticisms were poll driven, no doubt, because prior to the election even RW sites showed Kerry with an impressive lead.

It has become apparent since Nov. 3 that blogging scares them but they dare not ignore and disparage it to the point that they out themselves as not being members of the reality-based community. Propaganda is most effective when people don't realize that is what they are being fed.

[Me.]

121. Love This

"the elephant (and its droppings)". So apt.

[sattahipdeep]

105. I hear you got away with murder

Mr. greed, why you got to own everything that you see?
Mr. greed, why you put a chain on everybody livin' free?
You're hungerin' for his house, you're hungerin' for his wife,
And your appetite will never be denied.
You're a devil of consumption; i hope you choke, mr. greed.


How do you get away with robbin'? did your mother teach you how?
I hear you got away with murder, did you do your mama proud?

Mr. greed, why you got to take more than you can ever use?
Bring 'em to their knees; isn't it enough just to win while they lose?
You bring no honor to the game, you feast upon the blood and pain,
But the bones you hoard can only bring you shame.
There's corruption in your path, be that your epitaph, mr. greed.

Fogerty-

[coeur_de_lion]

113. Confusing article by Madsen about Wes Clark

H2O, did you see this?

I was so shocked to read it that I actually wrote to Madsen . . .

Wesley Clark for President? Another Con Job from the Neo-Cons
By WAYNE MADSEN September 18, 2003

http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen09182003.html
<<snip>>
Let it never be said the neo-conservatives are not persistent. That's why they must be rounded up by the FBI and charged with violating the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) statutes. But let's save that issue for another time.

The latest trick of the neo-cons is running retired General Wesley Clark for President as a Democrat. But not just any Democrat -- a "New Democrat." The same bunch that are pushing Joe Lieberman's candidacy are obviously hedging on their bets and want to have Clark in the race as a potential vice presidential candidate (to ensure their continued influence in a future Democratic administration of Howard Dean, John Kerry, or Dick Gephardt) or as a "go-to" candidate in the event that Lieberman stumbles badly in the first few Democratic primaries next year.

The "New Democrats" (neo-cons) are as much masters at the perception management (lying) game as their GOP counterparts (Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld). Clark's presidential candidacy announcement in Little Rock is one warning sign. This city is a sort of "Mecca" for the neo-con Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) and its main nurturers, Al From and Bruce Reed. It was from Little Rock where the DLC propelled a little known governor named Bill Clinton into the White House. And although Clinton did not turn out exactly as conservative as the DLC hoped for, his support for globalization and selected use of U.S. military power abroad were neo-con keystone successes.

Now enter "Arkansan" Wesley Clark. Like Hillary Clinton, Clark is a Chicago transplant to Little Rock. And he is about as power driven as the former First Lady. According to Pentagon insiders, when Clark was Commander of the US Southern Command in Panama from June 1996 to July 1997, he was fond of "ordering" Latin American military commanders and defense ministers to appear before him. Some of the Latin American officials, particularly those from Brazil, Argentina, and Chile, refused to be bullied by Clark, whose personality is said to be acerbic. From his pro-consul position in Panama, Clark supported with US military advisers and American mercenaries, continued warfare against anti-oligarchic movements in Colombia, Peru, Guatemala, Mexico, and Bolivia.
<<snip>>
:shrug:

[Me.]

114. Don't Know About Clark

but am not at all surprised about the DLC. Check this out...



Blame Kerry’s DLC straight jacket

By Ahmed Amr


<<<snip>>>
“John Kerry lost the White House because he played by the rules – The Democratic Leadership Council rules. The DLC appointed JFK as their standard bearer to contain the campaign within the red lines drawn by Joseph Lieberman. As a starting point, Kerry willingly sold his soul to the DLC devils and set out to derail Howard Dean’s insurgency. Beyond that, he was free to win or lose against Bush – so long as he accepted some basic DLC guidance on domestic and foreign policy.

Kerry and the DLC avoided the risk of energizing the Democratic Party’s base – lest the rank and file be tempted to tinker with the party’s agenda. The DLC convinced Kerry that they could bank on the Anybody But Bush vote. It follows that they didn’t feel any obligation to curry favor with the peace movement or progressives.

Kerry was fully aware that his sponsors at the DLC were heavily influenced by neo-con ideology. In fact, the DLC is an integral part of the war party. Whether out of conviction or opportunism, JFK willingly allowed them to have their way. He postured as Bush Heavy on the war and got licked fair and square on tangential domestic issues. The DLC convinced Kerry that he was ‘Anybody’ and that the election was just a referendum on Bush. Now that the results are in, it is clear that this election started out as a referendum against the war. When Kerry came out in favor of Bush’s foreign policy – it became a beauty contest about who had ‘leadership skills’ and ‘moral values’. Given Kerry’s capitulation to the DLC, maybe the voters made a rational choice.” Cont.

“This is my educated guess of the DLC’s marching orders to Kerry.

1. Control the urge to say, “9/11 happened on your watch, Mr. President.”
2. Don’t grill Bush on why he obstructed the work of the 9/11 commission.
3. Ignore the Office of Special Plan’s role in corrupting pre-war intelligence.
4. Continue denying that there is any link between terrorism and America’s foreign policy
5. Forget about Iraqi civilian casualties – remember that ‘we don’t do body counts’.
6. Don’t ask for a grand jury for Dick Cheney and Halliburton. Ignore the following heavy breathing headlines: “Halliburton cooks books”. “Shareholders sue Vice President and SEC investigates.” “No bid contracts awarded to Cheney's company.” “Cheney's company overcharges Pentagon for fuel.” “Halliburton gets cost plus contracts from Pentagon.” “Neo-cons ride to power on a Trojan Horse named Dick”.
7. Of course, The Plame case is off limits. Don’t open that “neo-con” can of worms.” Cont….

http://www.opednews.com/amrahmed_111504_dlc.htm

[H2O Man]

115. The polite reply:

One of the interesting things I find is that as a rule, none of my friends who have had military careers liked Wes Clark as a candidate for president. Not one. And none of them were able to identify anything about him as an individual. Just that he was a general, and some comments about what becoming a general entails. They are opposed to mixing the military into politics, much the way some of our friends on DU have mild to moderate concrns about mixing religion with politics. (grin)

I think that Madsen does well at finding facts. That doesn't translate into his opinion being worth any more -- or any less -- than anyone else's. And considering his background, my guess is that he was not able to be even a tiny bit objective when he wrote what now is clearly a silly article.

Now is that polite, or what?

Yesterday I was at a sweat lodge ceremony with some Indian people from around the northeast. I wore a Wes Clark/2004 t-shirt.Some of the people who weren't familiar with me gave my shirt looks of concern. (The person leading the ceremony had worn an Arlo Guthrie t-shirt!) At first, a number expressed opinions not unlike the veterans about the idea of a general running for president. But, you know, Crazy Horse was a warrior. Sometimes you need that.

[coeur_de_lion]

119. I have to say that article was a complete surprise to me

As you know I was a volunteer for Clark's campaign in my area, and I think very highly of him. I would have expected the republicans to come up with a smear like this one (they did, in fact), but for a liberal to do it -- was astonishing.

Naturally I think that the article is dead wrong. But admittedly I have heard from other people comments along the lines of "Clark is not what he appears to be." So I am 90% sure that the article came to the wrong conclusions, but for the first time since August 2003 (when I went to the first Draft Clark mtg.) I have a smidgen of doubt. Now either I have to doubt what Madsen is saying about Clark, and Madsen himself, or I doubt Clark.

I am inclined to think that his incorrect assumptions about Clark reflect badly on him. I would doubt Madsen before I doubted Clark. So now I wonder if he hasn't somehow come to the wrong conclusions about the vote fraud deal.

Maybe I'm being too black-and-white about it, I dunno. I really am looking forward to seeing how the whole Madsen thing turns out -- now more than ever.

Edited for typo

[H2O Man]

120. I would guess ....

that he could be correct on 90% of what he says about the election, and wrong about 90% of what he thought about Clark a year ago, and still be a decent human being. A large number of democrats, and in particular those who are to the left, did not like Clark. This does not mean that they are either right or wrong; it likewise does not mean that Clark is either good or bad. It simply means that a large percent of democrats were not going to vote for a general in the primaries .... and if you don't win the primaries, no one gets the chance to vote for you for president.

The fact that people in the democratic party tend not to trust military people such as Clark unfortunately translates into many of the "mainstream" not trusting democrats on military matters. In my opinion, this seems to defy logic, because either Kerry or Clark would have a thousand times more insight into ilitary matters than the two fellows, Bush & Cheney, who are creating wars today.

[mmonk]

160. I find that interesting in that

he started warning people about the neocons and used the word neocons, when no other democratic candidate for president was using that word. I heard him on NPR before he decided to run and he was talking about them and how worried he was for our democracy. After that interview, I decided I wanted to help with the draft Clark campaign. While yes, he was the general in Balkins affair, he is not a neocon. Read his book, "Winning Modern Wars" and you'll know. He doesn't believe in the classic conquer form of empire like being tried in Iraq. He was also appalled they started talking about Iraq after 9/11 at the pentagon.

[coeur_de_lion]

172. you know I emailed Madsen to ask "what's up" about his Clark article

He said because of Clark's ties to Acxiom and lobbying on their behalf with Cheney in 2001, he believed that Clark was "suspect."

He wrote that article 9/18/03, two days after Clark declared. Lots and lots and lots of things happened since then, but he told me his sticking with his opinion.

The guy (Madsen, not Clark) strikes me as a little hard-headed to say the least. He could revise his opinion, and then I would put more credence in his fraud story. But NOPE!

BTW, hi there from another member of the Draft Clark movement.

:hi:

[sweetheart]

117. Lessons of the chinese book of changes (i ching)

Funnily, i expected you to put foward that the I-ching is summarily a
representation of the only constant in life, "change", and that
change was studied and respected in ancient china, as another way of
approaching "truth". That all things are interconnected goes as
so obvious, it is hardly mentionable. I'm glad you fluff up that
principal root observation.

I ask the I ching oracle what this Goss shakeup of the CIA is about:

6 -x-
7 ---
7 ---
7 ---
8 - -
8 - -

This state of change maps to hexagram 31 changing to 33.

In english, "influence" (to influence, to stimulate). This suggests
that the effect of goss is to influence. However the moving line
says: "The influence shows itself in jaws, cheeks and tongue." It
says that the changes goss is about, is really all talk, and of no
serious substance, despite appearances.

This leads us to hexagram 33, "retreat". It seems the changes he
is undertaking are causing the CIA to withdraw and reduce itself.

The I-ching divination system is very effective, and can be useful
like tarot, at certain junctures to "divine" the direction of the
wind... all based on the occult principal that the hand that throws
the coins, embodies all the vibratory subtle knowledge for the throw
to yeild an accurate indication of the state of change.

You mentioned the I-ching, and i was hoping to read more of it! :-)

[coeur_de_lion]

136. Hi sweetheart!

Very interesting, all that stuff. I hope to heaven that Goss is all talk and no action. But so far he shows up as very active -- and more than willing to lop heads off.

They are trying to teach the CIA a lesson in loyalty -- to Bush. I hope that it backfires on them, big time.

[sweetheart]

138. talking action

The hexagram seems a bit benign in the reading i did. On reflection,
Porter Goss is all talk, and even his changes are surely directed
by cheeky ideology and nothing substantial. In this regard, i think
the second hexagram is not a good omen for an organization that is
paid to be "involved" with the world. An intelligence agency on a
monastic retreat is nothing the taxpayer need support, and certainly,
goss is all about waste and incompetence... one need only look at
his boss. ;-)

tashi dalek,
-s

[TexasChick]

122. Kick! n/t

:kick:

[coeur_de_lion]

123. So H2O I've been meaning to ask you

Do you believe what Madsen says in that first article in my post #40?

Do you believe that the reason Tenet and Pavitt resigned is Plame?

Do you believe that the intelligence community has it out for Bush and they are planning his downfall? Or at least his disgrace?

I think I am pretty shook today over reading that Madsen article about Clark. So now I want to question everything the guy said. Not that he isn't a nice person or anything, but I'm wondering how valid his Plame story is now. I think he may be a good person who is misguided sometimes. I think that probably *most* of what he said about L'affaire Plame is true, but we may never know about the rest of it.

I just wondered what your take was.

[Me.]

124. There's Been A Lot Of MisDirecting OF The Eye

going on, everywhere. Can we start pinning down the who's and whys and wheres so then maybe we can start getting somewhere?

[H2O Man]

125. Yes.

We can.

[coeur_de_lion]

131. Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

:hi:

[H2O Man]

126. Okay.

I think that long ago, this article was discussed on the Plame Threads. I disagree with him on his belief that the Plame case was the direct, or only, cause of the retirements. They were, in my opinion, the result of a number of things adding up, including the repulsive republican need to blame everything on the IC.

Now, regarding the question of is the IC out to destroy Bush? I want to talk about what I consider to be the patriotic segment of the IC. And I simply think that their #1 goal is to serve and protect this country. I am a democrat who believes we need revolutionary change in this country, but I have a great deal of respect for the IC. Enough that I don't think they are partison. I think they are looking out for the best interests of this country. Now, the simple truth is that Bush/Cheney represent a threat to the Constitution that these men and women swear to uphold.

And, again, a person can have a lot of the correct information in terms of facts, but still reach the wrong conclusion. Re-read the thing I wrote about Clark in response to your earlier question. That's just the way it is. I agree with much of what Madsen is saying about the election crimes in Ohio. But the rest of his opinions are not important.

[coeur_de_lion]

127. hey thanks, H. I do remember that we posted the

Madsen article on the threads a long time ago. That was why I posted it again -- as an example of Madsen's previous work. His name rang a bell to me because of those articles.

Don't know why, but the idea that he suspected Clark of sinister motives really bothers me. I've actually been emailing back and forth with him about it. He is a nice guy even if I don't agree with his conclusions.

And as always I agree with your conclusions. I don't think it can be reasonable to say that the only reason they left the CIA is because of Plame; it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

It is going to be an interesting couple of weeks for the Plame investigation, and also for the vote fraud issue. We may not see any major breaks with Plame but I do think that the issue is very much alive in the press (though not as much as we would like). It's also very much alive for the folks who would like to see * and his evil twin be punished for their crimes. I still think this issue has the best chance of taking them down. Yes, even more so than the vote fraud issue.

[H2O Man]

128. Yes.

I agree, Shorty.

[coeur_de_lion]

130. Shorty! Shorty! Why I oughtta . . . .

:grr:

[H2O Man]

132. temper.

not stature.

[coeur_de_lion]

135. LOL. can't argue with you there!

You know me too well, Ducks.

[Me.]

129. Just As Was Said Earlier

and even if it is obvious, we still need to keep in mind that everything is inter-connected, ripples upon ripples widening out. And even though I may question the conclusions that Madsen (and Ruppert) come to, what I think is going on with them is the same thing going on with us. They smell something rotten in Denmark and even if we can't locate the direct source of the whiffs that are assailing our nostrils, we trust ourselves enough to know it's there and are looking for the source of the decay. Now we all know the ultimate source resides in the maison blanc, but to get to there, it is the satellites we are having to suss out, the motivations for what is done, so we can trace our steps back to the new lesion growing in the former house of Nixon. The details will fill in the puzzle and give us the big picture. Yes?

[H2O Man]

133. yep.

On one of the other parts of DU, one of the "old-timers" I think highly of questioned the information Madsen is presenting. That's good. We should question everything. We can have good discussions within the group we have, including and perhaps especially when there are very different points of view. As long as we are all working in the same direction, with the same goals.

[coeur_de_lion]

134. Oui! D'accord

BTW, Je n'ai jamais douté de toi.

We know something went very wrong with the election, we just don't know exactly how it was done. Madsen may have hit on something that will prove useful. We will find out eventually!

Yes, the stench from 1600 is getting more and more pungent.

I hope we don't have to wait another 4 years to expose these idiots.

We have been very patient, I think, with the whole Plame case. We are likely going to have to be just as patient with the vote fraud issue.

[Me.]

141. I Bet We Could Come Up With A Solution To Judy's Problem

And the contempt hearing is on the 8th of Dec. No so long to wait for THAT shoe sto drop.


Judith Miller Finds “It's 'Hard to Keep Doing Your Job”

<<<snip>>>

NEW YORK Judith Miller, The New York Times reporter, one of several journalists facing jail time for refusing to reveal who leaked the identify of a CIA operative last year, says she is "in a state of denial" about the prospect of going off to jail as a crucial contempt of court appeal approaches in a week.cont.

She also says she can only get a fraction of planned work done because of the ongoing meetings, interviews, and legal planning for her defense. "There is a list of about 20 things I had hoped to do by the end of the year and I will be lucky to get one or two done," she told E & P on Tuesday.

"It is hard to keep doing your job, which is part of the suppressive effect of these cases," Miller added. "I am supposed to be covering the oil-for-food (scandal) and it is very hard to plan a trip or make calls."

Miller and Cooper will appeal their contempt orders during a Dec. 8 hearing.” Cont…


http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000728420

[H2O Man]

142. I hope the jail

has a psychiatrist who can help her. I would say that if she begins hearing voices, it could be her conscience.

[seemslikeadream]

140. A Close Look at Fallujah Insurgents’ Lab - Larry Franklin

Daoud’s proved infinitely more flexible. Originally opposing elections in January, 2005, Daoud seems to now have no serious objections. Initially willing to release Saddam Hussein’s female science advisors “Dr. Germ” (Dr. Rihab Rashed Taha) and “Mrs. Anthrax” (Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash) so “that British guy,” as Daoud called hostage Kenneth Bigley, could be saved, he bowed respectfully when Western officials resisted. And Daoud is reportedly a decorous neocon “Iraqi friend with ties to Mr. Franklin,” meaning Larry Franklin of the US Defense Department who’s under investigation for leaking secret documents to AIPAC — the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=55313&d=30&m=11&y=2004

[Me.]

143. The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight

It'd be laughable if this wasn't all so damnably serious.

[Me.]

144. Judy's Hearing Is A Week From Tomorrow

kick

[coeur_de_lion]

145. I hope they throw the book at the little witch

Incredible waste of time and taxpayer money, chasing down these reporters. She is crying about not revealing her sources when she should be crying because her sources betrayed our country.

Maybe if she spends a little time in jail she will learn something.

[Me.]

146. I Am So Hoping

she sticks to her "principals". How long would she be in jail for, the duration of the investigation and trial? Could she develope a jailhouse pallor in the time she's in?

[H2O Man]

147. Early on in the Plame Threads

we discussed the "how to's" and "how not to's" of committing crimes. I believe I said that police and prosecutors tend to a weak link to put pressure on. That's why it's never good to have many people involved in any "crime" .... and why good criminals never hook up with someone who wilts under the pressure of a threat of incarceration. It certainly sounds like Ms. Miller is coming unglued, and exhibiting some classic symptoms of anxiety turning into depression. I think she will soon become a "chatty Judith" doll in front of the grand jury.

[Me.]

148. Wouldn't That Be "Grand"?

n/t

[TexasChick]

149. Ewwww....can't wait to hear this! And Kick for Water Man! n/t

[H2O Man]

150. I think that we'll

find the next 6-8 weeks interesting.

[Me.]

151. Here's A Start

Gonzales to recuse himself from CIA probe

By CURT ANDERSON

“WASHINGTON -- Alberto Gonzales told a Democratic senator Wednesday that if confirmed as attorney general he would step aside from the Justice Department investigation into the leak of an undercover CIA officer's identity.

Gonzales made the commitment during a closed-door meeting on Capitol Hill with Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. That committee will hold hearings, expected in January, on President Bush's nomination of Gonzales as attorney general.

Schumer said Gonzales, currently the White House counsel, was more closely involved in the CIA leak case than outgoing Attorney General John Ashcroft, who recused himself from the case nearly a year ago under pressure from Democrats. Gonzales has testified before a federal grand jury in the case and has given advice about it to White House personnel.

"It's important because we want to get to the bottom of this without any political interference," Schumer said after the meeting. The White House declined comment.” Cont…

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apwashington_story.asp?category=1155&slug=Gonzales%20CIA%20Leak

[H2O Man]

152. That is good news!

Interesting they met behind closed doors to discuss the case!

[coeur_de_lion]

162. Good news indeed! But like you said, the * admin would look pretty

silly if Gonzales didn't recuse himself. That would tip off the American people that they had something to hide . . . And you know how the American public is. Why they would march on the White house immediately. People in this country don't stand for the President pulling the wool over their eyes. No, not for a minute.

We've been so patient! I think we started with the Plame threads way back in June. We thought there would be some good news in July and it didn't happen. So now we're just sitting on our hands waiting, and waiting . . . . After all this effort at being patient you would think Fitzgerald could manage indictments of some major players. H2O, can you have a little talk with them about that? Just have a word with them. Explain how all the people on the DU Plame threads (me especially) will be so very disappointed if they don't indict Cheney or Rove. I'm sure they will understand if you say it nicely. Never hurts to ask. I bet they could at least indict Rove if you asked real nice.

/sarcasm off

Folks in the WH are probably tripping over themselves in their rush to get away from this case. They will try to pin it on some low level schmucks, but I hope they are not successful.

[H2O Man]

163. What's funny

is that in the United States, most people really haven't been patient .... because our society doesn't know what patience is. We tend to be a society that fully expects immediate gratification. Of course, I do not mean we who are still on the Plame Threads per say, but in our nation's history, no significant scandal has unfolded in a short period of time. This is not a long, drawn-out process at this point.

Second, the longer it takes, the more reason we have to believe it will go farther up the ladder. Now, Shorty, I know that in your heart of hearts you KNOW that, for you are indeed the most reasonable, and as Blaise Pascal once observed, "le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point." The heart of this nation will defy this administration.

[coeur_de_lion]

166. Damn, H. That's French.

Blaise Paschal. I'm impressed. Not for you this time, quoting endlessly from your many political sources, but an actual philosopher. And an ANCIENT FRENCH one at that. Man's been dead since 1662. Am I rubbing off on you? Here all this time I thought you were rubbing off on me.

And it is so very true, you know. "The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing." The rest of that sentence is -- "we know this in countless ways." It's not always countless. 90% of my life has been ruled by my heart. What percentage of your life would you say your heart gets to rule? Paschal was also a mathematician, you know.

My dear brother H2O has a big heart. Now I've suspected this for a long time, but it is very special to see it in print. :P

Another cool observation of Paschal:
"Man is only a reed, the weakest in nature; but he is a thinking reed. There is no need for the whole universe to take up arms to crush him: a vapor, a drop of water is enough to kill him. But even if the universe were to crush him, man would still be nobler than his slayer, because he knows that he is dying and the advantage the universe has over him. The universe knows nothing of this."

And another:
"Hommes ne font gaiement jamais le mal tellement complètement et comme quand ils le font de la conviction religieuse."

That is (roughly) the French translation of this:
"Men never do evil so fully and cheerfully as when we do it out of conscience."

Oh, the blessings of Freetranslation.com

[H2O Man]

169. sometimes

I just forget how to speak English.

And I do NOT have a heart: perhaps you have forgotten that which a couple of our beast fiends wrote .... I am but a cold and calculating operative.

Enkane dode gw'io gweha 'ka. Sagoge'n he.

[coeur_de_lion]

170. Now stop that

I hate when you lapse into Seneca. You know I don't speak Native American. I demand that you translate.

Yeah you're right. I forgot what a cold calculating bastard operator you really are. At least according to SOME people.

But I did hear a rumor that you had a heart. And I believe all the gossip I hear.
}(

[coeur_de_lion]

184. Enkane dode gw'io gweha 'ka. Sagoge'n he. H, translate, please.

Freetranslation.com does not have a Seneca to English helper.

I don't know any Native American translators.

Won't you tell me what you said there? PM if you want.
:P

[kohodog]

153. I'll believe that when I see it

If the GoMan recuses himself Fitzgerald will have the green light! We've had to wait a while and maybe the wheels of justice will begin to pick up speed.

cheers!

[H2O Man]

154. It would be so obvious

if a person who testified before the grand jury attempted to derail it when it nears completion, that the president has something huge to hide. There will not be a Saturday Night Massacre.

Think back to the quote from Vine Deloria, Jr that I have often used on the Plame Threads: "There has never been a system yet that would not gladly sacrifice one of its own for a moment's peace, no matter how brief." (We Talk, You Listen; page 66)

The most recent articles covering those trying to cover up the case indicate that the WH strategy will be to isolate the two officials who told Novak. There has been disinformation put out to suggest that Rove and Scooter Libby read about Plame from an early wire of Novak's story. (The potential problems for the WH are two-fold: the on-going meetings that originated in Cheney's office on 3-8; and the calls between Novak and CI before the article was published.)

Will Wurmser and Abrams "fall on their swords"? I'm guessing that Fitzgerald has a significant amount of information that will cut through their blockage. For, as Deloria reminds us in his next sentence on page 66: "If the system is to be changed, then those who would change it should pinpoint its weak spot, its blockage points, and place all the pressure on that one point until that blockage is cleared."

[kohodog]

156. Early on in the Plame threads

We worked hard to get the word out. It is still alive and the administration hasn't been able to put it behind them. Other scandals have been buried or otherwise suffocated, including large lies about reasons for war and issues that should, but for a compliant press have the citizens of America shouting from the rooftops. This small slip may have helped hide the wrongdoing of certain corporations and individuals involved in making money trading weapons for a time, but as we had hoped and worked hard to expose may yet be their undoing. True democracy will face crises, and strong democracies will ultimately regain their balance. The press was instrumental in Nixon's undoing. Perhaps it is the rule of law and some strong people in the justice dept that will turn the tide this time.

[H2O Man]

161. We know that one

White House official said, "We've placed earthmovers on top of this." And we know that William Cullen Bryant said, "Truth crushed to earth will rise again."

[TexasChick]

155. Wow! I was thinking he was going to be a problem! n/t

[H2O Man]

157. He is

in many areas. But not in the sense of being able to directly put pressure on the grand jury. More of a problem will come at a time when the case(s) are prosecuted: he will be the boss of the head of the FBI, and Goss will be the head of the CIA. Hence, they will attempt to delay requests for documentation, etc, and to claim national security is at stake in order to harm efforts to take the indictments a step up the ladder.

[TexasChick]

158. Well, shoot! Sorry, H2O Man. That's why I need you to help me

understand all of this!

Well, then, if he and Goss can delay things, how long can they? If they can do this indefinitely, then why even bother with the case? Man, these people piss me off!

[H2O Man]

159. Well, I think you might

look to two cases for examples of how obstruction of justice occures from within government. They are, of course, Watergate and the Iran-Contra cases.

At this point, we know that Ambassador Joseph Wilson is pleased with Patrick Fitzgerald. And we have reason to believe that the White House is not happy with his investigation. So I think that at this point, we can be confident that Fitzgerald is both smarter and more capable than anyone in the White House. The system does not work perfectly; in fact, it sometimes doesn't work at all. But I am confident that this case will meet our expectations.

[TexasChick]

164. I'm going to trust you on this one! I hope things work out our way! n/t

:hug:

[H2O Man]

165. Democracy

means constant struggle! It's a process. The fact that we are still taking part in the process -- and more, that Fitzgerald is taking part in the process -- means we're still going, despite the best efforts of the Bush administration.

[TacticalPeek]

167. There it is.

[coeur_de_lion]

168. WOW! That image sure brings back memories! of the seventies

[kohodog]

178. Keep on Truckin Baby

Truck my blues away!

I hope that as Watergate was to the 70's, Plame will be to the 00's and some great music will be made. R. Crumb has resurfaced too...He did the cover of the New Yorker a week or so ago!.

[Me.]

171. No Wonder Reporters Are Getting Themselves Into Trouble

An arrogance seems to have grown in the journalistic community where they've come to regard "Freedom of the Press" as Carte Blanche to write anything they want. When I heard this on the news this morning I wondered how grand jury testimony got out and subsequently printed. That info is supposed to be sacrosanct. It won't do for reporters to break the law and try to get away with it claiming that are the third party in a crime someone else has committed and that they are merely reporting on it. If they aren't going to be able monitor themselves. maybe the shield law may have to be re-visited. Which would be a shame, another case of the few ruining things for the many.

<<<snip>>>
“In July, Chronicle reporters received a letter from the local U.S. Attorney’s office asking for the source of a previous Chronicle report that stemmed from secret grand jury testimony. At that time, the paper and Editor Phil Bronstein declined to provide the information, and they hinted that such federal inquiries would not deter the paper from similar stories in the future.

On Thursday, the paper showed its willingness to ignore the federal pressure and reported that “Giambi told the grand jury that he had injected himself with human growth hormone during the 2003 baseball season and had started using steroids at least two years earlier.” The lengthy story by reporters Mark Fainaru-Watson and Lance Williams was based on Giambi’s Dec. 11, 2003, testimony in the BALCO steroids case, a transcript of which the Chronicle obtained. (See summary on E&P Online.)

Federal investigators looking into the BALCO steroid scandal sent two letters to the Chronicle in July, and a similar request to the San Jose Mercury News in August, all but demanding that the papers reveal their sources for the testimony.” Cont…

“The other cases include the civil lawsuit brought by former Los Alamos scientist Wen Ho Lee against the federal government and the federal grand jury probe into who leaked the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame.”

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000730008

[Me.]

173. This Article Makes Excellent Points About Novakula's Culpability

Ethics Corner: Robert Novak Plays 'I've got a Secret'

<<<snip>>>
“Robert Novak is a prominent presence on the Op-Ed pages of The Washington Post and some 300 other newspapers where he rages against government secrecy. But while Novak spouts off in his syndicated column, he keeps a secret he would not permit any politician to get away with.

Novak refuses to say whether he was subpoenaed or if he testified before a grand jury attempting to discover who leaked the name of a CIA agent he identified in his column 15 months ago.

It's an untenable ethical position. "If he has a justifiable reason to withhold that information, he should give a reason why," said Robert Steele, director of ethics at the Poynter Institute of Media Studies in St. Petersburg, Fla. "Otherwise, he is undermining his credibility as an honest broker of ethical journalism. If he were on the other side, he would challenge journalists for not saying anything."…

“This is one time I disagree with Woodward. He and Editorial Page Editor Fred Hiatt should deep-six Novak's column until he comes clean. Hiatt, normally a talkative fellow, had nothing to say about this issue.” Cont.


http://199.249.170.220/eandp/magazine/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000727500

[TexasChick]

174. I wonder why Fitzgerald won't let us know if Novakula has testified or

not? Could it damage the case somehow? Not sure what the consequences would be if Fitzgerald disclosed that info or why it hasn't been leaked out.

[H2O Man]

175. He is not allowed to.

Grand Jury proceedings are private. He is bound by the law not to speak about them.

[TexasChick]

177. Thanks, H20 Man & Me! n/t

[Me.]

176. In The Vernacular...

He can neither confirm nor deny. Grand jury proceedings are supposed to be secret.

[kohodog]

179. They are secret except when

they are covering something juicy like Jason Giambi and steroid use. The GJ transcripts were leaked to the press according to NPR. If it's not about sex, sports or the destruction of a celebrety, the press isn't too interested in digging. How boring the security of the nation must seem, unless an orange or red light is involved. Just won't get any ratings!

[coeur_de_lion]

182. I like these two paragraphs --

<<snip>>
While Novak keeps writing, Glenn Kessler and Walter Pincus, two of the newspaper's best investigative reporters, succumbed to a subpoena and gave sworn depositions to the special prosecutor. They might have been able to fight off their subpoenas if their lawyers had known whether Novak — who broke the story on the CIA agent — had been called by the grand jury.
<<snip>>

<<snip>>
Meanwhile, Novak continues to live a charmed life in journalism, writing his column and appearing regularly on CNN, where he is never challenged.
<<snip>>


Other journalists are getting more and more angry, justifiably so, with Novak. I wish they would all write good articles like this one. There have been a few, but why not more? If it were me I would be screaming from the rooftops -- to put Novak in jail instead of Miller. I can't stand Miller, I think she should go to jail. But she isn't the one who broke the story.

I hope this article and the other few that have come out, will be the beginning of an avalanche.

[seemslikeadream]

180. kick

n/t

[TacticalPeek]

181. Perhaps not conclusive, but still . . .

Nofacts seems here to preclude his possible (and speculated) Fifth Amendment abstention from answering:


Many audience members lined up after Novak's remarks to ask questions. It was late in the questioning when someone asked about his decision to publish the name of covert CIA operative Valerie Plame, the wife of Bush White House critic and former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV.

Novak is at the center of a Justice Department probe into who leaked Plame's identity and said he would be "murdered" by his lawyer if he talked about the case in public.

"To the regret of many people," he said, "I am not a criminal target."

Not satisfied with the answer, the questioner, UW student Dinesh Ramde, asked if in hindsight Novak would do it again. He got no answer, just a dismissive glance.

"I thought he would be anxious to talk about it - to get his side out, so I was disappointed that he didn't answer and more disappointed that he didn't answer the second question," Ramde said afterward.

http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/index.php?ntid=19892&ntpid=3


I didn't think he was necessarily a criminal target, in this matter, yet. And he could be, and not know it, and he also could be fibbing. But not a target sounds likely.

[lovuian]

183. I find it amaazing the FBI runs in Rumsfeld's office and supoenas

4 aides to Rumsfeld and go grab their records but the plame situation was done slow like a tortoise!!!

So lets face it We have traitors in the whitehouse We have proof so why aren't the FBI finding them!!!

[kohodog]

185. this on Franklin from a post on LBN

WASHINGTON — The FBI searched the offices of the premier pro-Israel advocacy group in the United States for more than six hours Wednesday, took away computer files and issued subpoenas to four senior staffers in a continuing probe of whether a midlevel Pentagon analyst passed classified information to Israel.
Deb Weierman, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Washington field office, said agents arrived at the headquarters of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) near Capitol Hill at about 10 a.m. and stayed until past 4 p.m.

A grand jury has been investigating whether Lawrence Franklin, a career analyst at the Defense Intelligence Agency who specializes in Iran, passed a classified Pentagon draft on U.S. Iran policy to two AIPAC officials in the summer of 2003. Two federal law enforcement officials with knowledge of the probe have said prosecutors are trying to determine whether the AIPAC officials shared information from Franklin with Israel. Both law enforcement officials asked not to be named because the investigation is ongoing.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-12-01-fbi-...


These cases are intertwined as I understand Fitzgerald found evidence about the AIPAC spy afffar while investigating Plame. This is part of the "widened" investigation, and I wonder if some of the press subpoenas leak into this part of the investigation.

[H2O Man]

186. Judith Miller.

Who does she work for?

[Me.]

187. And Don't Forget

the money laundering probe connected with an Islamic "charity" and how J. Miller may have given them a head's up about an FBI raid. You don't hear her talking about that and the matter seems to be under the radar completely.

[H2O Man]

188. Yep.

C-SPAN decided not to have a Mr. D.U. Waterman ask her any questions about this topic.

[TexasChick]

196. She did wha?!! Man, she is the lowest of the lowest! n/t

[H2O Man]

199. Ms. Miller was on C-SPAN

someone who I think may contribute to this forum -- his name was D.U. Waterman -- attempted to ask her a couple simple, friendly questions. But C-SPAN was intent on presenting her as a fawn in headlights victim of the bad prosecutor.

Over and over, they said that he wanted to ask her about "sources of an article she didn't even write." This is such shit.

Miller did not write an article exposing Plame. Yet Fitzgerald wants to ask her specific questions regarding the leak. How did he get her name? Think about that one.

[TacticalPeek]

189. Pile on Bob.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1044135

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/departments/syndicates/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731519

Then there was the Chicago Reader column by Michael Miner. Among his points was wondering if the Sun-Times, by running a Nov. 21 editorial at the bottom of the page, was "just going through the motions of taking Novak's side" in the Plame case. And, speaking of the case, Miner wrote that Novak "talked to some creeps and printed what they told him. It's the creeps he won't identify, not some plucky whistleblowers."

[TacticalPeek]

190. Pile on Judith.

'NY Times' Attorney Expects Wait For Decision on Plame Case Contempt Appeal

By Joe Strupp

Published: December 06, 2004 12:49 PM ET

NEW YORK - Wednesday's contempt-of-court appeal by two reporters refusing to disclose their sources in the Valerie Plame case is not expected to result in a decision for up to several weeks, according to one of the lead attorneys in the case.

George Freeman, in-house counsel for The New York Times, said the hearing before a three-judge appeals court in Washington, D.C., will likely be a quick one, with each side having 25 minutes to argue its case. But, he did not foresee reporters being led away in handcuffs, as some have suggested.

"They won't make a quick decision," said Freeman, who is representing the Times' Judith Miller in the case. "It will likely be, as appeals courts do, over time. Maybe a matter of weeks."

Some observers, such as Lucy Dalglish, executive director of Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, have said that those involved in Wednesday's hearing could be led away to jail this week. Dalglish said on CNN Sunday that "It's likely we'll see some journalists behind bars within days."

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731988



Reporters lead such exciting lives. /sarcasm off

[H2O Man]

191. Dalglish is a character .....

and she simply refuses to ask the most obvious questions: we all agree that Judith Miller did not write an article about the Plame case that exposed Valerie, (hence, she is not "protecting" a source, much less a whistle-blower) so .... what does Fitzgerald know that would make him call Miller to testify? How did Fitzgerald come to find that Miller was involved?

Unless Dalglish confronts these issues, everything else she is saying appears to only be an effort to distract attention from those two questions.

[Me.]

192. The Sheer Hypocrisy Of It All...

Little Big Man

<<<snip>>>
“Robert Novak was in high dudgeon. He and his colleagues on CNN's "The Capital Gang" were squabbling over whether CBS should have run a story on President George W. Bush's National Guard service, a story which relied on documents whose authenticity had come into question. Novak – the show's resident curmudgeon, outfitted with a three-piece suit and permanently arched eyebrow – delivered his verdict. "I'd like CBS, at this point, to say where they got those documents from," he growled. "I think they should say where they got these documents because I thought it was a very poor job of reporting by CBS."

Resident liberal Al Hunt jumped in to clarify. "Robert Novak," he asked, "you're saying CBS should reveal its source?" When Novak replied that he was, Hunt pressed him further. "You think reporters ought to reveal sources?" In a flash, Novak realized he had made a mistake; he began to backtrack. "No, no, wait a minute," he said. "I'm just saying in that case." So in some cases, Hunt continued, reporters should reveal their sources – but not in all cases? "That's right," said Novak.

What Novak's fellow panelists on "The Capital Gang" knew that day, but most of the show's viewers probably didn't, was that much of Washington has spent the better part of a year waiting for Novak to reveal a source of his own. During the summer of 2003, someone in the Bush White House decided to extract a pound of flesh from former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, a critic of the administration's rationale for the Iraq war, by revealing to members of the press that Wilson's wife was an undercover CIA agent. And though the leak was peddled to several journalists, only one was willing to actually print it: Robert Novak.

By exposing the name of Wilson's wife – Valerie Plame – Novak not only put an end to her undercover work on weapons of mass destruction issues, possibly putting at risk the lives of any foreign sources who may have cooperated with her. He also may have abetted a federal crime: It's a felony for a government official to knowingly disclose the name of any undercover agency operative, an act serious enough that the Bush administration eventually agreed to name an independent prosecutor (the only one appointed during Bush's first term) to find out who was responsible. That prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, has since subpoenaed other journalists who received the leaked information. Two of them – Judith Miller of The New York Times and Matthew Cooper of Time magazine – ran the information only after Novak first publicized Plame's name; both refused to disclose their sources, were held in contempt of court, and face prison time if their appeals don't succeed”.Cont…

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/20663/

[Me.]

193. "Reports of Democracy's demise have been greatly exaggerated"

<<<snip>>>
“Overreaching by conservatives has revealed cracks in Republican unity, and party chest-thumping has diminished. It began when House Republicans took a cue from fictional Texan J.R. Ewing, who said about business that once you get rid of integrity, it's a piece of cake.” Cont…

“And there are plenty of storm clouds on the horizon. Bush has held the moderates, the religious right and free-market civil libertarians together for four years, but there is no one else who can pull off that trick. Certainly not Rudy Giuliani or John McCain, who both support gay rights.: cont.

“ When things go bad - and it's only a matter of time - Bush's vaunted political piggy bank will go bust and Republicans will degenerate into a circular firing squad.” Cont.

“Iraq could go south; the plummeting dollar could cause foreigners to stop underwriting our soaring deficit and send interest rates into orbit; the investigation into the outing of undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame might lead to the White House.” Cont.


http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_2481544

[H2O Man]

194. there is something

brewing in the media ......

[Me.]

195. What Do You Think It Is

exactly? How's it going to trend?

[H2O Man]

197. There have been a few things

on tv and in print that indicate more journalists understand that the Plame case has nothing whatsoever to do with the "whistle-blower" protections the media should enjoy. And moldy old Bob is becoming more of a public joke among reporters.

It kind of reminds me of working for an agency, and having a couple jackasses for co-workers. They are not pleasant to co-workers, until one day when their stupidity gets them caught for some wrong-doing. And then they start talking about, "We've got to stick together." And I think that more reporters are realizing than not only do they not want to stick together with Bob, but they don't want none of Bob sticking to them.

[TexasChick]

198. Well, maybe this Judith chick was in cahoots with Smirking Chimp and

his cabal on the leak of Plame? Maybe she actually had talks or something with someone in the WH about what was going to happen to Plame? Dunno really, just speculating...

[H2O Man]

200. When you think about

three issues: {1} she has inside information, not related to a news story, about the Plame leak; {2} she lobbied with the public for support for the invasion of Iraq; and {3} she warned a suspected Islamic front group of an impending FBI "visit," ..... one could correctly assume she works for a small, informal group that operates out of an office in the White House.

[TexasChick]

201. Oh, man! Make this twit talk, Fitzgerald!!! n/t

[kohodog]

202. Imagine...

the possibilities this case may portend. While the Miller case may slow the conclusion of the Novak/Plame affair it is more than likley that Fitzgerald in moving in multi-faceted directions. The Plame case expanded some time ago and it's not beyond posssibility that others are caught up in the web. It might have been possible to bring charges earlier but Fitzgerald wants the big fish and is patient enough to solidify the case. Time will tell, and in the meantime I can imagine a better world.

[Me.]

203. I Absolutely Agree With You

I think when he started with Plame he opened a can of worms he never expected, in that the tentacles of this case reach far, wide and in different directions. I'd rather he do this thing right than fast. I also wish C-Span had taken that call from Mr. D. U. Waterman.

[CroixRoussienne]

204. Do Tell!

Unfortunately, only a small percentage of C-SPAN callers elucidate their points well. Knowing something of H2O, I watched that whole program in anticipation of his most incisive questions. Instead, they chose to go with the softball stuff, with poor followups and generally never got into the nitty gritty. The one question regarding sources did appear to make her mighty uncofortable, though...

[H2O Man]

205. That's an interesting point ....

she did seem uncomfortable. But it seemed almost too much, like an act to make her seem vulnerable, a victim. I think she wanted the public to think of her as a nice, almost shy girl who needs protection from that mean Mr. Fitzgerald.

My goal was to as her two simple, short questions that I believe would have shown a very different side of Judith. But I am very sure that she will be asked those very same questions very soon.

[Me.]

206. This Then Will Come As No Surprise

C-SPAN founder slams leak probe

<<<snip>>>

WASHINGTON – The prospect of a New York Times reporter’s being sent to jail because she won’t identify her sources “is crazy,” C-SPAN founder Brian Lamb said Monday in a televised speech in which he said he was a “great leaker” when he worked for the government in the 1970s.

“It’s a bit daunting to think that Judith Miller or Matt Cooper or others will go to jail over this issue. I personally think it’s outrageous. I think the idea of putting somebody in jail because they won’t cough up who their sources are about an article they haven’t written is crazy,” Lamb said during a speech at the National Press Club. Cont,

“The leaking of information in this town is in the interest of people in this country,” he said. “I used to be one of the great leakers of all time. … We did it, rightly or wrongly, because of the way the whole system works. We have $2.3 trillion of your money being spent by people in this town. You see how haphazard it can be when you pass bills in the middle of the night, and you bring in stacks of the bill that nobody reads and it’s got something like 11,000 items in there worth $20-some billion.” Cont.


http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/news/nation/10358265.htm

[H2O Man]

207. Not surprised at all.

Brian sounds like he may be covering for an old friend. But it is a pretty weak cover. I think that they were determined not to allow anyone familiar with the case to ask pointed questions.

[TexasChick]

208. Kick for H2O Man! n/t

[H2O Man]

209. Many people ....

wish to kick H2O Man.

[Me.]

210. LOL

Good one.

[Me.]

212. Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow

I love you tomorrow, you're only a day away. Bet JUDY is not singing this song, but maybe she'll be singing a different tune!

[H2O Man]

213. Tomorrow Never Knows

"turn off your mind, relax, and go to jail ...." Well, that may not be the exact lyrics, but I'd like to dedicate that little verse to Judith .....

[TexasChick]

211. I hope you don't think I wanted to kick you! No way did I mean that! LOL!

:hug:

[H2O Man]

214. When you get to be my age

there are very few jokes that come to mind. I've thought of that one for about a month ....

[seemslikeadream]

215. 'N.Y. Times' Attorney Expects No Decision This Week on Plame Appeal

By Joe Strupp

NEW YORK Contrary to common analysis, Wednesday's contempt-of-court appeal by two reporters refusing to disclose their sources in the Valerie Plame case is not expected to result in a decision for up to several weeks, according to one of the lead attorneys in the case.

George Freeman, in-house counsel for The New York Times, told E&P Monday morning that the hearing before a three-judge appeals court in Washington, D.C., will likely be a quick one, with each side having 25 minutes to argue its case. But, he did not foresee reporters being led away in handcuffs, as some have suggested.

"They won't make a quick decision," said Freeman, who is representing the Times' Judith Miller in the case. "It will likely be, as appeals courts do, over time. Maybe a matter of weeks."

Some observers, such as Lucy Dalglish, executive director of Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, have said that those involved in Wednesday's hearing could be led away to jail this week. Dalglish said on CNN Sunday that "It's likely we'll see some journalists behind bars within days."

MORE
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731988

Leak probe mired in battle with journalists

..

In the Plame case, Fitzgerald is trying to enforce an obscure and complex 1982 law intended to protect federal undercover agents. In seeking to force reporters to testify, Fitzgerald is relying on a 1972 Supreme Court decision that the First Amendment does not insulate reporters from federal grand jury subpoenas. He argues that reporters have the same obligation as any citizen to tell investigators what they know about a possible crime.

Lawyers for Cooper and Miller disagree, saying that 49 of 50 states offer reporters some protection against being forced to divulge sources. That should count for something when weighed against a 32-year-old federal court ruling, they argue.

In addition, Cooper and Miller say that because grand jury proceedings are secret, it's impossible to know whether the Justice Department has followed its own internal guidelines about when it's appropriate to try to pull reporters into court.

While the case has become a cause celebre among journalists worried about being squeezed by the government, other say Fitzgerald has acted appropriately. Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, said Fitzgerald had little choice but to question reporters.

Fitzgerald has to determine how many administration sources may have leaked and whether there was a pattern of such activity, Luskin said, and "the only way to do that is to talk to the reporters." He added, "I don't see how you can conduct a leak investigation in a sensitive way. You have to talk to everybody."

more
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/politics/10361910.htm

[H2O Man]

217. Very interesting .....

I think that from the second article, we can gather that Rove is cooperating with the investigation, at very least to the degree that he is directing attention towards others' involvement.

[coeur_de_lion]

220. well that's interesting, the second article makes it sound as if Rove

is cooperating fully with Fitzgerald. I don't believe that this is really possible, but if I didn't know anything about the case (like 90% of the population) I would think that Rove was a law-abiding citizen who wanted to cooperate with the grand jury investigation. What a joke! The mastermind of the crime wants to make it look like he was an innocent bystander and a couple loose cannons in the * administration are the perpetrators. Yeah Carl, we believe you. When pigs fly . . .

Thanks, Dream, for those articles.

So H2O I'd like to know, what two questions would you have asked Judith if you had the chance? And what do you think the answers might have been? Enquiring minds want to know.

[H2O Man]

221. Okay.

I shall look through the notebooks on my desk to find my exact notes. They are very much in line with that which we discuss here. With the information we have on the Plame threads, we could convince any objective jury of the wrong-doing of the hoodlums from the White House.

Regarding Mr. Rove: his job is to deflect attention from the president. He is not going to sacrifice his buddy's reputation by allowing him to be associated with the conspiracy to cover up the identities of the leakers .... even if that means sacrificing any number of people from the VP's office.

[coeur_de_lion]

222. quit it, H2O. What questions would you have asked dear Judy? n/t

[H2O Man]

223. Okay:

I must have thrown the paper out. I always write things out, so that I can ask a question clearly. But here is the approximate:

And I would have started by making a pleasant reference to having followed her career very closely. Very closely, indeed.

{1} Ms. Miller, what do you consider the single most important distinction between a whistle-blower who exposes government corruption, and a government official who is commiting a crime?

{2} Ms. Miller, can you tell us the date and circumstances of your first conversation with the group of White House officials planning to attack Ambassador Joseph Wilson's reputation after his March 8, 2003 comment about the administration having more information on the yellow cake forgeries?

I'm not sure why C-SPAN would not want these questions out on the table. I do understand why Ms. Miller would not.

[TexasChick]

225. Wow! For real? The Pillsbury Roveboy would do that for the Chimp?

I guess if evidence comes up that the Chimp knew about the leakers, I guess it won't matter about KKKarl.

[H2O Man]

227. Always

the cover-up involves more people involved in criminal behavior than the original offense. Watergate is the model for this part of the Plame scandal; Iran-Contra is the model for the spy scandal.

[TexasChick]

229. OT Waterman: I heard that the unPatriot Act II has passed!

Bye-bye, America! You were once a beautiful country and now you have been hijacked by fascists freaks who are out of control! :cry:

[TacticalPeek]

216. Matt Cooper coming up on c-span call in, 9:30 EST.

Torture Matt.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2802440

[H2O Man]

218. Wow ....

I wish that I had been awake; I'd have given it another shot. But, because I get the feeling that C-SPAN is going to try to appear as character witnesses for the lowest of "reporters," they may have opted to not let me talk again.

[Me.]

219. Let's Roll

Today is the day. Let's hope the point of view in this article prevails. Keep on trying H!

COMMENTARY: Journalists and confidentiality

<<<snip>>>
“Usually if you aid and abet a criminal, either before or after the fact, you yourself become complicit in the crime. That would apply to you and me--should, say, my best friend tell me he's robbed a bank and I refused to testify to knowing this, I could be prosecuted.

Not so with journalists, at least not in many cases. The courts have actually been a bit ambivalent, at times holding journalists' feet to the fire, at times letting them get away with refusing to disclose their sources when these informed them of facts that implied criminal actions by someone. However, journalists themselves have tended, in the main, to insist that this confidentiality be treated as sacrosanct.

Most recently The New York Times chimed in on the matter, in an editorial on Sunday, December 5, 2004, where we hear righteous indignation aplenty about the idea that two reporters, Judith Mill of The Times and Time magazine's Matthew Cooper, ought to reveal what they know about the criminal leak to columnist Robert Novak that lead to the outing of CIA operative Valerie Plame.

Actually this issue of confidentiality between news reporters and their sources is by no means a settled matter in the law. Is it like that between priest and confessor? Spouses? Doctors and patients? Why, in fact, should all those enjoy the privilege that isn't accorded to me and my friend? Is this not a case of discriminatory treatment where none should occur? Doesn't, in fact, the letter, let alone the spirit, of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution prohibit such favoritism toward those privileged parties? Why are they not guilty of obstruction of justice when they knowingly withhold information that could lead to crime detection and prosecution?” cont.


http://www.desertdispatch.com/2004/110251700821511.html

[TacticalPeek]

224. Only speculation, but the row looks tough for the media hoers.

:)

Judges Skeptical of First Amendment Protection for Reporters in C.I.A. Leak Inquiry
By ADAM LIPTAK

Published: December 9, 2004

WASHINGTON, Dec. 8 - Hearing arguments on whether two journalists should be jailed for refusing to name their confidential sources to a grand jury, a three-judge panel of the federal appeals court in Washington seemed on Wednesday to reject their main argument, which is based on the First Amendment.

...

"How is this case any different than Branzburg?" Judge Sentelle asked Floyd Abrams, the lawyer representing the reporters.

When Mr. Abrams did not provide an answer satisfactory to the judge, he asked again. And again.

"I take it you do not have a material difference between this case and Branzburg," Judge Sentelle finally said, "or you would have given me an answer on the first, third, fourth or fifth opportunities you had."

Judge Tatel seemed to agree that the Supreme Court case had answered the main question in the appeal. "We're bound by Branzburg," he said.

...

In an interview on Tuesday, Mr. Cooper said the legal process had been unsettling. "I'm hoping the federal government is not going to put me into a position where I have to tell my 6-year-old son that I'm going away," he said.



Now, now don't simper, Matt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/09/politics/09leak.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1056116

[H2O Man]

226. the truth

will set you free. Thirty years of federal court cases have made very clear that these two reporters do not have a leg to stand on. They need to tell the truth to the grand jury.

[Me.]

228. So Glad You Posted This

I, for whatever reason, can never get into the Times and was dying for info. Judas Miller was on Lou Dobbs tonight but I could not bring myself to watch and CBS did a piece but didn't get into the essence of why they should be slung into jail, nor did they mention specifics on the hearing today.

[TexasChick]

230. Judas Miller...LOL!!! Thanks for the chuckle! n/t

[Me.]

232. He Caught A Break, It Could Have Been Worse

<<<snip>>>
“Jim Taricani, an investigative reporter for a television station in Providence, R.I., was sentenced late this afternoon to six months of home confinement for refusing to reveal the source who provided him with an FBI videotape, according to the Website of WJAR-TV, where he works.

Taricani is one of several print and broadcast journalists who have been subpoenaed in recent months by investigators seeking the identity of reporters' sources.

But Taricani is the first to face the prospect of imminent jail time. He was found guilty of criminal contempt by a judge last month for refusing to reveal who provided him with a videotape purportedly showing a city official taking a bribe. The tape, broadcast three years ago, was used in the trial of former Providence Mayor Vincent Cianci

Taricani is a broadcast reporter, but his case has obvious impact on all journalists, especially at a time when demand for source identities has re” cont…

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000735138

[coeur_de_lion]

231. Sacked CIA official alleges retaliation for not faking WMD reports on Iraq

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/usiraqwmdciasuit

<<snip>>
WASHINGTON (AFP) - A sacked CIA (news - web sites) official is reportedly suing the agency for allegedly retaliating against him for refusing to falsify his reports on Iraq (news - web sites)'s weapons of mass destruction to support the White House's pre-war position.

Described as a senior CIA official who was sacked in August "for unspecified reasons," the plaintiff's lawsuit appears to be the first public instance of a CIA official charging that he was pressured to produce intelligence to support the US government's pre-war contention that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were a grave threat to US and international security, The Washington Post reported.

"Their official dogma was contradicted by his reporting and they did not want to hear it," said Roy Krieger, the officer's attorney. CIA spokeswoman Anya Guilsher told the daily she could not comment on the lawsuit, adding: "The notion that CIA managers order officers to falsify reports is flat wrong. Our mission is to call it like we see it and report the facts."

Krieger wrote a letter requesting a meeting with CIA Director Porter Goss due to "the serious nature of the allegations in this case, including deliberately misleading the president on intelligence concerning weapons of mass destruction," said the daily quoting from the letter.
<<snip>>

[H2O Man]

233. I saw Roy on tv today .....

This is a potentially very important development.

[TexasChick]

234. Do you think it's a potentially important development because this could

lead to the forged yellowcake uranium documents?

[H2O Man]

239. It's important for

a couple reasons, all of which are very closely related. In Wilson's book, he notes that VP Cheney and a couple others associated with him made repeated trips to CI HQ. They pressured CI analysts to provide specific results, in spite of the truth. This is clear evidence of that. If VP Cheney had not insisted on getting evidence that supported his needs -- meaning if he told the CIA he wanted the truth, no matter where the cards fell -- then the supervisors would not have pressured the analysts to lie. Thus, this case is an important piece of the puzzle in showing that mind-set at CI.

Next, think about the yellow cake baloney. The WH (Cheney) already had two reports (one by an ambassador, one by a general) that showed that Iraq had not bought uranium from Niger. Yet Cheney went to the CIA and instructed them to do a third investigation. This is clearly the same thing that is described in my first paragraph here: rather than a search for and acceptance of the truth, he was pressuring CI to verify a lie.

Was the VP confident that the CIA would send an asset who would make a report that propped up the lie? Yes, of course: he had been pressuring people at CI to find "evidence" that supported his previously reached conclusion.

Think of the implications. Things are coming to the surface that indicate the administration has struck up a fight with a very capable foe.

[TexasChick]

249. Hmmm...tsk...tsk...tsk. That Satan Cheney! I hope he gets his soon

enough. In fact, I fear him more than I do Rove and Smirking Chimp. I think he is the most evil of the whole bunch.

[Me.]

235. Good Point Here

<<<snip>>>
“And that creates a very troubling dilemma. Journalists who last year were demanding that the Justice Department aggressively pursue the Plame leakers are now crying that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is acting too aggressively in the case. Some 1st Amendment scholars argue that Fitzgerald has sound reason to subpoena Cooper and Miller, because they may have been witnesses to the commission of a felony. This all has the potential to create some very bad case law for journalists and the public they serve.”


http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/10385161.htm

[Me.]

236. Are The Earth Movers Out In The Franklin Case?

This info on the Franklin case comes from the voice of the White House. I have never known if this source is credible though the info is always interesting, if, in some cases fantastic. But we'll know if it's true if a PR surge in the Franklin case becomes apparent.

<<<snip>>>
“The Franklin matter came up and it was agreed that both the White House and the top media people would keep the lid on this. A major columnist, yet to be chosen and bribed, will do an op-ed piece on the fact (“leaked” to him by the usual fake “highly reliable inside sources” ) that the FBI could actually find nothing wrong with Franklin and that the material Franklin gave to the Jews, both in the US and Tel Aviv, were actually “unclassified policy studies” of no strategic value. Then the matter will be considered over and forgotten. Actually, Franklin worked with top neocons and gave the Jews crates of high-level White House and Pentagon situation papers with Cosmic-type security classifications. In short, Franklin, who was well-paid for his treachery and will get to keep his ill-gotten gains, gave away the farm insofar as alerting his friends in Israel to our very top policy secrets. And, it is felt, a great deal more. Still murky but there is something very big and nasty down there in the dark pond. But if the Bush/Israeli people have their way, it will be a very dead issue.” Cont…


http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1247.htm

[H2O Man]

237. Well, the White House

will try to play it this way. That's why the House should be investigating it. It's very hard to have the Justice Department in charge ofan investigation of the administration. This is, of course, why the Founding Fathers set up the separation of powers; it is also why this administration is attempting to consolidate their power.

I note with some interest that Mr. Kerik had to withdraw his nomination much in the manner that Mr. Goss's buddy had to. There is a pattern.

[Me.]

241. Loved The Story That Said Kerik

was having an affair with a socialite who dumped him before he was ready so he began harassing her with phone calls. She taped them.

[H2O Man]

243. Wasn't that Mr. O'Reilly?

I guess I get certain types of people confused. Their names change, but they look alike from here.

[TexasChick]

250. It was Bill O'Lielly:

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/1014oreilly.html

Fox's O'Reilly allegedly forced phone sex

<snip>

I know that he does not fear what is on the tapes," Green said.

Morelli would not comment on whether any taped phone conversations exist.




Of course, I don't know anybody can force you to have phone sex. Even if it is sleazy Bill O'Lielly. To me, all you have to do is hang up!

[H2O Man]

238. Let's list the

mainstream media journalists who were "demanding" an "aggressively pursue(d)" investigation of the Plame leak. I'll go first. Hmmmm .....

Robert Novak? No? Okay ...... let's think .......

[Me.]

240. Miller...Starr...Cooper?

Oh...I forgot...they're "real" journalists, why would they be interested in treason? Hey, maybe Judy will write about poor innocent Franklin?

[H2O Man]

242. She may claim

that there are constitutional protections that shield criminals like Franklin from prosecution. We know she was interested in helping the Islamic front that she warned when the FBI was planning to visit it. Thanks, Judith, for protecting the constitution.

[kohodog]

245. Cooper was on NPR's media show early this morning.

He hinted that Novak may have pleaded the 5th and that's why the focus hasn't been on him.

[H2O Man]

246. A number of people believe this .....

the implication is that Fitzgerald isn't granting Novak immunity, and that would explain why he has called a number of the other journalists. If this is correct, Novak will be prosecuted.

Others believe that Novak has testified. And still others suspect he will be the last person called before the grand jury.

[Me.]

248. What Would Novak Be Prosecuted For?

Obstruction?

[H2O Man]

251. I'm not sure ....

although we do know that when Novak called the CIA for confirmation of Plame's status, he was told not to mention her name or job staus in an article. And he did mention her name and job status. And that is a federal offense ....

[kohodog]

244. While we're at it, Lets list the MSM that have followed the recount

Um, er, gee, can't think of any.

[H2O Man]

247. Novak.

Well, maybe not.

[Me.]

252. The Silence Is Killing Me

How long before we get a decision on the appeal?

[H2O Man]

253. Maybe by Christmas .....

possibly later. There's an old saying that some cases are difficult to decide, and others are easy to decide. This should fall into the "easy to decide" group. I hope that they decide next week, and allow Judith to get comfortable in her new cell.

[Me.]

254. Wouldn't That Be A Cheery Present

for us all?

[Me.]

256. How Does Novakula Stay Out Of Jail?

Theory 4

Novak was subpoenaed and has already testified

This theory is a cocktail-party favorite. Novak is reviled by the left, who are angered by his loosely verified scoops and the effectiveness of his attacks.

Nearly every journalist interviewed for this article, all of whom demanded anonymity, said they thought Novak had already spilled his guts. The theories run from the pitying ("Bob wouldn't last 12 seconds in jail. They don't serve martinis in there") to the conspiratorial ("The testimony was taken in private, it was totally secret, and I'm sure it was in a dark room. There may have been pentagrams and burning candles").

If Novak has already testified, however, why is the investigation ongoing? Some suspect there are multiple leakers, so even if Novak revealed his sources, prosecutors want to make certain Miller and Cooper spoke to the same people. But if Novak did talk, why no arrests?

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-op-novak12dec12.story

[Me.]

257. Theory Five

Theory 5

Novak is a target

As Abrams explained, it may be a long shot to prosecute Novak for printing Plame's name. But what if the cover-up was the crime?

Let's say Novak did something during the investigation that amounts to obstruction of justice or perjury. Fitzgerald, eager for a courtroom win but reluctant to indict a Bush official, may choose to focus on Novak, and is busy building his case.

Novak has denied this explanation. "To the regret of many people, I am not a criminal target," he told a roomful of University of Wisconsin students this month.

If Miller has any regrets about taking the heat for Novak, she isn't airing them. "I feel no animus against Bob Novak," she said last week. "He's a journalist and he should protect his sources. But given what's at stake, I hope he will eventually disclose his own personal situation."

For now, he's not. "I don't talk about the Plame case. Period," said Novak, when contacted for this story.

"OK? Period."

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-op-novak12dec12.story

[TexasChick]

255. I don't know. They sure are taking their sweet ass time with this. I'm

starting to give up hope that any justice will be served. The obvious fraud in this election, the cooked up yellowcake uranium documents, the Plame case, etc. There is no hope. The best thing we can hope for is to help each other survive these next four years. Let these damn PNACers/Neocons take their course, bankrupt this damn country into another Great Depression, which will make the first look like a cakewalk. And, IF we survive, we can finally take back this nation, if there's anything left standing.

[H2O Man]

258. This isn't that long

of a time to investigate something complex, especially when the other side is stalling. People in the USA want things to happen quickly. And I have to say I wish there had been indictments last July. But we need to be patient.

[coeur_de_lion]

259. I'm hoping that this is a case where things are going slowly due to

the thoroughness of the investigation, rather than the delays caused by the * administration. If H2O is right about Fitzgerald, he is going nice and slow because he doesn't want any holes in his case.

As for the state of the country, something like 56 million people voted for *. They can't stay blind and stupid forever. I do see a bit more MSM coverage of the mistakes and crimes by the * administration. It isn't by any means a comprehensive coverage of the crimes, but it does leak out drip by drip. I don't know what it would take to get the general public to wake up, but something has got to give and sooner or later it WILL. I do believe as you do that there was massive fraud in the election, but I believe that it will come out. Never in my lifetime has there been such obvious vote fraud as we experienced in the last two elections. I don't even know of too many instances of this kind of massive fraud in history -- save the post Civil War era. Ghandi had a saying --

"When I despair, I remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always won. There have been murderers and tyrants, and for a time they seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of it, always."

Hitler fell. It took a long time, and he did a lot of damage before he was finally conquered. The * admin will fall, it's just a matter of time. It isn't happening on our schedule, but it will happen on God's schedule. Perhaps the good Lord is waiting for * to do more and more evil things. This way when his administration is finally exposed, he can be remembered as the most corrupt president in history.

My faith in the American people has been shaken quit a bit, but it's still there. Nixon will always be remembered as a corrupt, evil and paranoid man. My belief is that * will be remembered as even worse than Nixon. We know he is. In time so will everyone else.

[Me.]

260. Thank You For This

"When I despair, I remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always won. There have been murderers and tyrants, and for a time they seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of it, always."

Also, what I try to keep in mind is what an astrologer named Claudia Dikinis said before the election. She called it for ***H, much to her own dismay, but then went on to say he would become the most reviled pResident in history and that his 2nd term would unravel like a ball of yarn in the paws of a cat.

I agree that "They can't stay blind and stupid forever." I just wonder what it will take, what will be the tipping point that removes the scales from their eyes.

[kohodog]

261. I am worried too.

Although the Plame case may well end up with indictments, if it doesn't take down major players in the administration it will fall into a forgotten space in history. I had lunch with a friend today who is slipping into hard times. His once prosperous sole proprietor graphic design business is in trouble because of mergers, acquisitions and a hunger for cheap labor and services that seem to dominate business these days.

We discussed China and feel that the US may be on a donwward path, while China, India and the EU may be moving into dominant positions.

I still hold out a sliver of hope that Plame can bring the big players in this administration down, but as time increases I think we may need to shift our focus and look to more direct action, meaning that we need to protest and ultimately run for local office and start to effect change that way.

edit: sp.

[Me.]

262. You're Right

about China, also affecting photographers, textiles and a lot of the work artists, artisans and craftspeople do. You're also tight about needing to start with local elections. In addition we need new leadership, in mho, the scales need to fall from the eyes of those who currently hold the dem reins or they need to be replaced with those who have both strength and vision.

I continue to hope also, based on the fact that truth always manages to work it's way to the light and, what's up ALWAYS comes down. I consider Kerik a good example of how the mighty can fall and a morality tale for those in the WH.

[TexasChick]

264. Me, do you have a link to Claudia's astrological prediction on the

election and Chimp Bush's 2nd term? I would be interested in reading it. If not, I can google her name and try to find it that way. Thanks.

[Me.]

265. Here Is The Link

It was written on Sept 17th., and read at the time when I hoping for a ***H loss, I felt it was very dark. Apparently others did too and, sorry to say, sent her a lot of hate mail. But she was exactly right. She hasn't written anything recently, though her prediction does reflect on what she see the future holds for him. Nancy Waterman, who is also excellent, on DU in the astrology group, posted a time line tonight

http://starcats.com/newsmakers.html

PS. My sincere best wishes for you in your job hunt.

[TexasChick]

266. Thanks for the link and thanks for your kind words about my job hunting.

I read the link and yes, it does seem dark. She goes into fascism and the US a lot, but doesn't never really come out and says if the Reich Wing will be successful in implementing this "Christian constitutional dictatorship". But, I do like her prediction about smirking Chimp. I would love to see that man alone, paranoid, and depressed. Sort of like what he has done to many of us these last four years. Cheers!

[Me.]

269. One Follows The Other

I think. If his admin goes down in flames, it follows that the people who backed him will be tarred and cindered too.

[TexasChick]

263. coeur_de_lion, thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. I truly

appreciated this. I didn't mean to be a Negative Nelly or anything, especially to H2O Man, who has extended courtesy to me throughout this thread.

I'm just really down about all of this. It's like we are watching a horrible train wreck about to happen and we are powerless to stop it. I think about 9/11 all of the time, and I KNOW these PNACers were behind it. It's so sad that half of the people in this country don't want to believe these people could kill 3,000 innocent civilians to futher their neocon agenda in the Middle East. I guess that's where my frustration lies as well. (Sigh) I hate these people. I'm Christian, never perfect, even cuss now and again, but I feel guilty for hating someone like these people. I know Christ told us to love our enemies, and that's exactly how I view these criminals, but I can't help it. Plus, Chimp constantly uses God and Jesus to fool many about his religion. He is the antithesis of Christ and his teachings. I really don't know what to do. I'm angry all of the time, frustrated I guess, to see these people just getting away with so much! It's almost supernatural!

I have also been unemployed for over two years now. I've had several interviews last week, and one coming either late this week, or early next. I just wish that I could find a job to help get me busy again. I just sit and worry. I hate this Chimp for what he has done to our economy and our social standing in the world. I'm the only lone Democrat in my family. My twin is an Independent, everyone else Repuketard. Guess what? They just love the Chimp! And, at family gatherings, that's all I hear. I guess that's why I want him exposed so bad. I keep begging them to listen to me when I say that he is no Christian and these people have a lot more surprises for Americans and other nations abroad.

Again, thanks for helping me feel better. I am still very interested in the Plame case, and I do hope that SOMETHING OR SOMEONE in the administration, not just Novakula, will go down for this crime.

The quote from Ghandi was beautiful. He has said very many wonderful things throughout his life. Again, thank you.

And, H2O Man, I apologize to you too. Peace.

[coeur_de_lion]

267. to Texaschick, and all the others regarding the above topic

There is a belief in some circles that whatever you concentrate on, you bring about. The universe cannot distinguish from what you are worried about and what you want for yourself. If we are thinking all the time about the negative aspects of the * freak administration, and feeling and thinking gloom and doom all the time, we can bring it about. What you give attention to comes to pass. Think instead about a time in the not too distant future when the country will be ours again, and represent the people rather than a few greedy businessmen. This country was founded by the people, for the people and it will operate in the best interests of the people, sooner or later. Keep the picture in your mind of that Utopian America where we are all valued and cherished, and where we can all find gratifying work that pays enough to meet all of our needs. DON'T let go of that picture, no, not for a minute. Believe it. It will happen.

The Plame case is a good example of the kinds of things that will bring shame on the * administration, but it is far from the only thing. Think of justice, think of peace, think of a happier time when all this is behind us. Keep it in the front of your mind, and meditate on it as often as possible. I think my sig line Lennon quote is missing because we are on "level one" with some DU features down. But it goes like this:

"Give peace a chance, and remember Love. The only hope for us is peace. Violence begets violence. You can have peace as soon as you like if we all pull together. You're all geniuses, and you're all beautiful. You don't need anyone to tell you who you are. You are what you are. Get out there and get peace, think peace, and live peace and breathe peace, and you'll get it as soon as you like." - John Lennon

As difficult as I know it must be, think peace all the time. Think justice for the Bush administration, all the time. Think of prosperity and the new job you are going to have very soon, TXchick. It will happen. I feel for you because I'm experiencing the same thing right now. I'm doing work that I never dreamed I would do, just to bring money in to pay my bills. I'm still looking for a better opportunity. Don't give up. Keep that picture in your mind of your ideal job, and think about it each morning when you get up, and each night before bed. It will happen, I promise. I can't tell you when, but I know it will.

:grouphug:

[TexasChick]

268. Thanks! How beautiful!

:cry:

[coeur_de_lion]

270. when you're faced with a seemingly untenable position, or feel hopeless,

you have a couple of choices. One is to give in to that hopeless feeling and believe that doom is at hand. The other is to carry on and continue to believe in spite of what your eyes can see and your ears can hear, that all will ultimately be well. I've learned that the hard way in the past several months, as I cast about for a new way to make a living. As soon as i changed my attitude, my situation began to improve. Now I see possibilities for my ultimate dream coming to fruition, and I believe that it eventually will. I'm still stuggling but things are happening slowly, and I believe that this time next year my money worries will be OVER. Maybe even before that.

You have to have faith even when it seems the universe has abandoned you. Hell if it worked for me it can work for anybody; I'm the Queen of the Pessimists. I'm also their patron saint.

Hang in there. Keep telling yourself all is well and then it will be. Good luck on your job interviews, knock 'em dead.
:hug:

[George W. Hayduke]

271. good advice...

misour coer de lion...