Do the end timers think Bush is going to cause the rapture?

[spinbaby]

Since the election I've heard a lot from the born-again crowd (many of them relatives) about how Bush's reelection is divinely ordained and how now he's going to take his place in some kind of prophesied sequence of events. They seem to be hinting that they think the rapture is about to happen because Bush was elected.

Someone clue me in--what's the sequence of events that's supposed to lead to the rapture and what does the Chimp have to do with it?

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. The deal is that he would have to crush Babylon *Iraq*

rebuild the temple (in Jerusalem, I think), and the world would have to be consumed by (nuclear?) fire)

I would not be surprised if ** tried to make all of these things happen.

(Note, I am not up on the fundagelical raputure beliefs because I do not share them, so I could be mistaken.)

[doni_georgia]

8. Then he will step into the temple and declare himself God

Seriously though, belief in the rapture is a new belief which originated in the late 1800s. It began gaining popularity in the mid to late 20th century. Anyone who believes what the Bible says about the return of Christ has to acknowledge that it says "No one will know the day or hour, not even the son, but the Father only." What is really weird is that these people who are trying to usher in the rapture and the return of Christ are merging two distinctly differnt eschatologies - the belief in Kingdom Now (Dominionism - where the people of God usher in his return) and Pre-tribulation rapture - where God raptures out the elect, then the tribulation occurs then Christ returns. Some of these folks have their "Left Behind" mixed up with their Theonomy. The real truth is they are so completely ignorant of biblical scholarship and theology that they will believe anything some charlatan preacher tells them.

[amber dog democrat]

2. I think the RAPTOR will sense where and when it can set down

It has something to do with Israel. Then the RAPTOR will fly away with all the saved people in its talons - but I don't know where it ultimately ends up.
Tom DeLay will set up a RAPTOR feeder to attract it.

[NEOBuckeye]

15. ROTFLMAO!

Where'd you get that one from? South Park?

[amber dog democrat]

16. No, that's just me being stupid.

It would NOT surprise me to see something like that on SP.
Maybe RAPTOR Battles MOTHRA and flys off with the fundies into the sunset ?

I'm not very devout. I would pay good money to see that happen.

[Maat]

3. I don't know ... but I've had the same experience.

Have fundie Southern Baptist relatives in Oklahoma. I've told them not to support a presidential candidate that is going to ruin my future - but, of course, they did anyway.

It's like talking to a wall.

[spinbaby]

7. Have you notice a new burst of religious furver?

I have.

[The Doctor.]

4. This is a bit lengthy, but the fact is it's happening because

They WANT it to happen... Read on.

The Real War.


The Human Race is in jeopardy. Currently, a vast war is raging unseen below the surface of our consciousness.

We believe we are engaged in conflicts for many different reasons and under the impetus of many ideals. For the most part, this is true.
We are at war in the Middle East for a number of reasons depending upon whom you ask. We are at war here at home over issues of freedom, happiness, and values.
We are at war with economic forces that will spell our demise as a nation unless we all become economic warriors with the understanding that triage may become a very real necessity.

But there is a greater war, one from which all of these symptoms arise. It is the War for the salvation or obliteration of the human race.

I have come to understand, through study of human nature and human consciousness, just what fate humanity has mapped out for itself. I have come to describe my theory as “The Human Omega”.
No one can argue that humans are not an ambitious species. In fact, we know very well that humanity will ALWAYS reach for what it perceives to be within it’s grasp. It is because of this that we have come so far as a species.
We have the capacity to become so much more than we are, and that is precisely what we have done for millennia. We will reach forward to grasp new concepts, new ideas, and new technologies we are not now even capable of imagining. We will take hold of our own evolution. Whether it takes one hundred years, one thousand, one million… it does not matter; it WILL happen.
I have no doubt that left to explore and flourish humanity will attain transcendence tantamount to true divinity. We will become our own God, made in our image and vice-versa.
Our descendants will become masters of time, space, and consciousness.

All we need do is survive.

One of the greatest hallmarks of the human race is the retention of knowledge. As we acquire the technology to retain information we utilize it – immediately.

Perhaps you are reading this on a website – imagine the amount of information that site backs up and retains. There may be a Library of Congress’ worth of posts, threads and information held in the server memory and backed up for permanent storage.
Now… think of how much information was stored only thirty years ago - A fraction of a fraction of what we store today. How will we preserve everything we want to?

Our divine descendants may well deal with that too, but their methods know no boundaries we can imagine. As masters of time, space, consciousness, and perhaps a number of other curricula we cannot imagine, why not save EVERYTHING?

The trend toward this human destiny is utterly inexorable. Having studied how the human race reaches in all directions around the globe and ever further into the farthest reaches of space, into the future and farther into the past to understand the origin of life on earth. As we delve ever deeper into ourselves, into our intricate intellectual makeup, into our genetic composition, there can be no question we will one day achieve divinity.

Should there exist even a shred of human curiosity in our descendants, (Considering curiosity drove them, I imagine more than a shred will persevere.) they will most likely preserve every consciousness that has ever existed.
Everything will be preserved, perhaps they will have no need for machines, or their machines are woven into the very fabric of the universe; but every event, every dream, every thought, every blade of grass ever to exist, everything from the very beginning of time until the end will be forever preserved in living memory.

If this seems far-fetched to you, try to explain an automobile to a Neanderthal.
I don’t understand how these things would work any more than he would understand what makes a Porsche run… but he can understand what it does… as I can this.

So when a consciousness passes from life, that consciousness will find absolute access to every bit of knowledge, every event, and every perspective in the universe. Even yours.
You will come to know everything, and to be anything.
This is the gift our children can give us, our descendants, with the impetus to preserve gifted to them by our common nature, will preserve all.
The vast loop of the continuum will be closed, linear time will become meaningless, and we BECOME divine… We achieve the Human Omega.
For all intents and purposes – this may already be the case given that time is not linear.
We cannot know what philosophy our descendants will operate on, we can only know that we will not know or understand it until we rejoin the Omega Consciousness. We can pretend all we want to be right or moral, but there will certainly be more to the truth than second-guessing the will of God.

This brings us to the Great Fear.

There is no question that we are in pain. We witness the atrocities we visit upon each other, the tortures, the injustices... so much pain.
It is said that those who do evil do so because they are in pain.
One cannot imagine a pain they have not felt, but, in some fashion or another, they experience the pain they have caused.
This then becomes a cycle; The Tormentor is in pain because of the pain he has caused. He does not realize that his pain is self-loathing; he cannot understand his masochism – for he is immediately aware of his victim’s agony. He seeks to cause pain to punish himself. The Tormentor turns his pain back into anger that seeks to inflict pain once again.
This pain is unfathomable, but it does not merely reside in the individual, it pervades the human super-, sub-, and unconscious. It is passed around from person to person, culture to culture, generation to generation.
Like a virus, this pain begets itself perpetually; it will not perish until we rise above it.

Just like Jesus said.

But ‘it’ does not want that.
Without getting into Human Superconscious Theory, this is best explained by saying that this vast human suffering has taken on a life of it’s own. Somewhere in the interface between this vast suffering and human empathy, there has evolved a disturbing dissonance, which has yielded a self-sustaining entity.
Pain begets not only pain, but the methods of its continuation as well.

There is an operative effect on the human psyche because of this pain. There is fear.
This fear is so deeply embedded in our racial subconscious that it too has a ‘life of it’s own’.
The fear is of spending eternity with the pain we have caused.

We know that there are one of two ultimate outcomes for the human race.

One is the transcendence of humanity by constant growth and enlightenment.

The other is absolute Oblivion

The pain we are in are the cumulative screams of millions upon millions tortured alive, the tears of a child who didn’t want to die hungry the day the death squad came, the mother putting a plastic shopping bag over the head of her baby to futilely try to save it from the poison gas as she succumbs to a rasping death.
There is a great awareness of this horrific torment, both in the victims, and in the tormentors.

This is a pain so great it begs for Oblivion. To forget forever, to have never been is it’s only desire.

This pain has been at war with our destiny for thousands of years.

Should the Human Race survive, this pain will be preserved forever in the consciousness of The Human Omega.
Should the Human Race be extinguished, there will be no Human Omega, and we will all descend into the soft, eternal nothingness of oblivion.

This vicious agony has not sat still and waited for us to extinguish ourselves, nay – it has spent countless centuries engineering our demise.
Through the human subconscious it has worked to trigger our own undoing, and these are the times it has been brought to bear.

Being so imaginative, we have tried to devise methods to explain the world around us with little or no empirical rational.
Religion was one of those methods.
When we developed empathy as a race, we had to find a way to justify taking the life of a screaming animal for our own sustenance. We developed more humane means of doing so and also ‘told ourselves’ that a higher power said it was ok to do so.

Our survival was that ‘higher power’; we called it ‘God’.

But we took religion, which has roots in Human Superconscious understanding, too far.
We let the pain in.
Pain and Religion don’t mix. Just like Jesus said.

We created the ‘Deadly Meme’ of our own destruction.
There can be no doubt that the anger of ‘fire and brimstone’ and the ‘Wrath of God’ was not written out of enlightenment, but rather out of the realization that there was so much wrong… so much pain. These writings had such beauty and wisdom, they were accepted as carte blanche and absolute truth, and therein lay the danger.

For over a thousand years, huge portions of the human race have invested their faith in stories that tell them they will be favored when all else perish in fire.
They read that if they did ‘this’ and believed ‘that’, they would be given such rewards they cannot imagine. And so the faithful have divested themselves of human conscience, the precursor of faith, to acquire those rewards.
Such a powerful impetus as faith extends far beyond and much deeper than the empirical actions of the faithful, however.

This notion of the ‘end of the world’ has been invested in by so many, over such a period of time, and with such fervor – it may be impossible to stop it.

Because of a number of books written from the perspective of this pain, we may not survive as a race.

This belief in the end of the world has fueled the actions of so many of our leaders. They are so certain Armageddon is upon us that they have no intention of preserving our resources or our restraint. They have been fooled into believing that their actions are divine and that the destruction of the Human Race has no impact on achieving divinity.

The greatest deceiver has deceived them. The very thing they believe they are waging war against has fooled them.

They will go to any lengths to carry out its will by lashing out at the agony and creating more. This cycle will wind itself into a literal firestorm of extinguishing rage.

We must not allow these things to occur, we must not allow our leaders to take us into a holy war in this age of mass destructive capability.

For then surely we will embrace oblivion.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

30. Nice post. Very thorough and thoughtful.

Thanks for taking the time to write this. :)

[The Doctor.]

31. Oh... I have more... so.... much... more....

You're welcome!

[m berst]

37. brilliant, simply brilliant Dr_eldritch

I could listen to you all night. You not only make so many excellent points, you open up entire new areas for thought and discussion.

[The Doctor.]

58. There will be a book... it will take time...

Hopefully we have that time.

[m berst]

63. wonderful

Yes, if we have that time. Thank you again.

[demodonkey]

5. He won't cause end of world is not good biz for his corporate buddies. nt

[man4allcats]

6. What is this "rapture" stuff anyway?

I hear that a lot. Some people have rapture bumper stickers. I notice they mostly appear on cars with Dubya stickers. In any case, I don't get it. I guess I'm not religious enough. I think I always associated it with some mystical moment at the height of orgasm. Is that it? Are all these idiots who voted for the chimp now hoping to get fucked by him too? If so, I'm quite sure they won't have long to wait.

[spinbaby]

9. I think God sucks them up to heaven

to save them from the global chaos caused by Bush. And this is somehow a good thing.

[Demeter]

It would be a good thing

get them off the planet and out of our hair!

[amber dog democrat]

13. How do we know its heaven ?

Many will be accounting for their choices and deeds - if this myth is indeed true.

[journalist3072]

44. The Rapture

During the Rapture, we as Christians will be 'caught up' in the air with Christ. In the Rapture, Christ will continue to show His mercy and His grace by protecting The Church from his Wrath.

[Buns_of_Fire]

56. Maybe The Rapture already happened...

And, apparently, everyone's still Down Here instead of Up There. This possibility would no doubt cause much consternation amongst folks like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Phred "God Hates Fags" Phelps -- and that's why they so mean!

And God only knows
And God makes His plan
The information is unavailable to the mortal man
We're working our jobs
Collect our pay
Think we're gliding down the highway, when in fact we're slip-sliding away...

And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson! :toast:

[The Doctor.]

10. The 'Rapture' is supposed to occur right before

'The Great Tribulation' (just before Armageddon)

It's when all of the 'Pure' Christians are swept up and given heavenly bodies by God so as to spare them from the horrifying ordeal here on Earth.

Those that believe in this don't realize that the same book tells them only 144,000 can be 'taken as if by a theif in the night'.

(That was a big number back then)

[Pig_Latin_Lover]

22. Boy, are they in for a surprise

It's when all of the 'Pure' Christians are swept up and given heavenly bodies by God so as to spare them from the horrifying ordeal here on Earth.

Those that believe in this don't realize that the same book tells them only 144,000 can be 'taken as if by a theif in the night'.

They are staying right here on earth. I don't think, should a Rapture ever come, the first people in line to Heaven would be the people who voted for and wanted the death and destruction of billions to take place. I just don't think God is that type of guy.

[TexasBushwhacker]

25. Wow, I didn't know there was a "quota"

Actually, I think that the Rapture fans are just afraid of dying. If they get raptured, they get to go to heaven going through the pain and suffering of death. How convenient!

[The Doctor.]

34. Yes, religion was created on fear, so it is logical that

those fears should make themselves apparent.

[journalist3072]

41. Timing of The Rapture

Within the Christian community, there are basically 3 schools of thought on when the Rapture will occur.

1. As you pointed out, some believe the Rapture will occur right before the 7-year period of the Great Tribulation.

2. There are some who believe that Christians will go through SOME, but not ALL, of the Great Tribulation. These individuals believe that the Rapture will occur Mid-way through the Tribulation. They believe that approximately 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation is when the Rapture will occur.

3. Lastly, there are those who believe that Christians will go through the Great Tribulation, and that the Rapture will occur in accordance with the glorious Second Coming of Christ. They believe that shortly before Christ makes his 2nd physical appearance here on earth, that the Rapture will occur.

The Bible teaches us that when Christ makes his physical return to Earth, he will plant his feet on the Mount of Olives, which is East of Jerusalem. The Scripture also suggests that there will be an earthquake there; it talks about the Mount of Olives being split in different directions after Christ has returned there.

[RevCheesehead]

64. so are you quoting a pre-millenialist view?

The post-millenialists believe that Christ will return to earth, there will be a 1,000 year reign of peace, then all will be taken up to heaven (raptured). Then the earth is destroyed, along with all the "unsaved."

Quite frankly, I don't believe in ANY of it. All of this Darbyist sh*t came from the delusional feverish rantings of a preacher with way too much time on his hands. His teachings are disseminated at the Dallas School of Theology...and are popular with many evangelical, non-denominational churches. Also regurgitated in the writings of Hal Lindsay ("the late, great planet Earth") and, of course, the "Left Behind" crap of Tim LaHaye.

But there is NO historical doctrine that this thought was EVER espoused by the Christian Church (with perhaps the exception of the Essenes - whom we know very little about). And the early church was simply trying to survive the fall of the Roman Empire AND the martyrdom of the faithful.

MOST Christians DO NOT believe in the Rapture. I would venture to say that most people don't even know what it is.

(Sorry for the rant - it's my MDiv regurgitating on me!)

[journalist3072]

72. Belief in the Rapture

Sorry, but most, if not all, Christians DO believe in the Rapture, because it is scriptural.

There is simply a disconnect between those who believe that 1) The Rapture will occur before the beginning of the Great Tribulation, 2) The Rapture will occure midway through the Great Tribulation (about 3 1/2 years into it and lastly 3) Those who believe the Rapture will occur in accordance with Christ's physical return to earth. This means that they believe the Rapture will occur right before Christ physically returns to Earth and plants his feet on Mount Olivet.

[Spiffarino]

74. Sorry, but

...I've been a Christian for a long time and nobody that I know in my religious community buys it. Revelation can be taken in many ways, not all of which support the idea of a rapture.

[TankLV]

75. Belief in any "rapture" is blasphemy or heresy.

Only the religious xtian kooks believe in such nonsense.

You are right - there is absolutely NO basis for this "idea" in scdripture.

[journalist3072]

82. Scriptural Basis for The Rapture

Here is the scriptural basis for the Rapture. The word rapture is not used, but the phrase "caught up" is. And that is what rapture means--to be caught up.

1 Thessalonians 4
6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

[RevCheesehead]

76. Sorry, but the "Rapture" was not part of my formal Theological education.

If you are referring to eschatological thought, that was covered in Biblical studies and various theological discourse. But if you are referring to the events as outlined in Revelation, that is another matter entirely. The Rapture crowd uses eschatological snippets of Revelation, Daniel, and a few other passages to construct a theology which is considered by mainline Christianity to be heretical.

In Luke's gospel, when Jesus ascends to heaven, two strangers appear and ask the crowd why they are standing around; then promise that Jesus will return "in the same manner." Luke's account is continued in the book of Acts, where the story of his ascension is repeated. Then in the second chapter, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descends upon the community, and the Church of Christ is born.

In Matthew's account (written to the Jewish-Christian community), Jesus urges the disciples to get busy and make disciples "of all nations." This is no surprise, since God chose the people of Israel "to be a light to all nations."

I believe in the return of Christ. In fact, he has returned several times. He returned after the crucifixion. He returned again in several post-resurrection appearances to his disciples and others (especially in John). Many believe that his "second coming" (the parousia)is a reference to the giving of the Holy Spirit to the communuity, thus forming the Christian church (the Luke/Acts acccount). Some also believe that the coming of Christ is a reference to a person's spiritual conversion.

As to the "end times," Jesus makes it clear that even he himself does not know the time. And quite frankly, he tells us not to be overly concerned about these things - "you will know by the signs that the end is near." But what he DOES emphasize is the importance to not be caught unaware. The focus became one in which we are told to be busy DOING the work of Christ - feeding and caring for the poor and oppressed, actively loving God and our neighbors.

People in the first generations of Christianity became paralyzed, waiting for the parousia. And Paul's letters show a re-interpretation, if you will, of the parousia - from "it will happen very soon," to a more conservative "it will happen sometime."

For those who read the scripture literally, of course they claim that their interpretation of the Rapture will happen, because it's "in the Bible." But the Bible is a collection of writings. Some literal, allegorical, some poetry, snippets of letters, some historical accounts, and so on.... But NOWHERE in scripture does it say "this is an account of how the world will end, and this is how it will happen." NOWHERE does it claim that Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives and bring about the end of the physical world. It's all an interpretation, based on a vision (or dream, if you prefer).

Revelation was one of the last texts to be added to the canon. There was much debate as to whether or not to include it, or count it as one of the apocryphal texts (considered to be sacred writings, but not necessarily essential to Christian thought and teaching). It almost wasn't included, but the Church felt it would be OK, since Christian teaching was a duty assigned to priests, who held to strict apostolic teaching of the faith (Dogma).

During the Reformation, Dogma became suspect (because of vast corruption). Martin Luther proclaimed a theology of "sola scriptura." At the time of the Enlightenment, people began reading and drawing their own conclusions, rather than simply accepting church doctrine. And American frontier Christianity ran wild, with some churches breaking radically with the Apostolic teachings of the faith. This led to the "Great Awakening," the rise of the Holiness movement, and the focus on a "personal salvation" as the primary emphasis of scripture.

Sorry this is long, but I cannot agree that "most, if not all, Christians DO believe in the Rapture, because it is scriptural." If I had claimed to believe in it, I most certainly would NOT have been approved for ordination in the United Methodist Church.

[Spiffarino]

78. Oh, I'm glad it was a long post

You spelled it out in much clearer terms than I could have. This is exactly (well, with a lot of the details left out) what I was thinking. The notion of a "rapture" event comes from a VERY selective reading of Scripture.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

80. Horseshit...

"Sorry, but most, if not all, Christians DO believe in the Rapture, because it is scriptural."

I was raised and educated as a Christian and this rapture crap was never a part of my upbringing. None of the Christians I was raised with or know today believe in this raptutre crap, either.

I have had the inteersting experience of meeting some "christians" who adhere to this belief. Unfortunately, in my experience, these "christians" seem to be the least Christ-like people I have ever met. They are more obsessed with zygotes, butt sex, converting "heathens", and killing brown people than acting in the true spirit of Christ.

[doni_georgia]

21. Rapture 101

Okay here's the condensed version. In Christianity, there are different interpretations of the book of Revelation. Christians have been wondering when Christ would return since he assended into heaven. Each generation has held some who believed their generation would be the last. Eschatology is the doctrinal study of last things. In Christianity, there have been historically three traditional positions:
Amillennialists - these do not believe there will be a millenium (1000 year reign of Christ on earth) of any type. They also do not believe Christ will return to destroy the evil doers. They hold that good and evil will grow together in the world until the end and that the kingdom of God is already spiritually present in those who believe in Christ. St. Augustine held to an amillennialist view, and this was the dominant belief until the Puritan Revolution in England.

The second position is postmillennialism - postmillennialists believe that the kingdom of God already exists on earth and is being spread through the preaching of the gospel. They believe that when the gospel has been preached to enough people things will begin to change. After this golden age, Christ will return. The Puritans who came to America were postmillenialists, and postmillennialism was the dominant eschatological thought in America from the colonial period until around the Civil War.

The third traditional position is premillennialism - premillennialists believe that there will be a literal millenia (1000 year reign of Christ on earth). They believe that there will be a period of tribulation (7 years) - a time of horrifying events that will separate the good and evil people. They believe that there will be an antichrist who will come to power during this period, and at the end there will be a great war (Armageddon) after which Christ will reign on the earth. Premillennialism began to gain in popularity around the time of the Civil War. About this same time another view came into play - Dispensationalism, this rose to prominance through the popularity of the Scoffield Reference Bible, and it was with this new belief (that there are different dispensations) that the belief in the rapture gained popularity.

The rapture (literally meaing to "catch up") is a belief held by premillennists that Christians will be caught up in the clouds to return to Christ at his second coming. Premillennialist's belief in this event comes from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. All premillennialists believe in the rapture but disagree as to when it will occur in reference to the time of tribulation. Those believing in the rapture differ as to when it will occur. Pre-tribulationists believe that the Christians will be removed before the tribulation. They believe that they will suddenly be caught up in the air to meet Jesus and will miss all of the awful tortures of the tribulation. Post-tribulationists believe that the rapture will not occur until after the 7 year tribulation period. Another view (much newer) is the mid-tribulationists who believe Christians will be raptured out after 3 1/2 years of tribulation. The newest belief about the rapture is called "Pre-wrath" they believe Christians will endure the tribulation, but not God's wrath poured out at the end.

Most evangelicals today believe in a rapture. But there are still many denominations where amillennialism and postmillennialism is still the dominant view. I personally have no views of the end of days. Que Sera sera!

[Native]

27. Thanks for the lesson

great info!

[TexanDem]

32. Very enlightening, doni_georgia! Thanks for making it simple!

[journalist3072]

45. Mid-Tribulation Rapture

Exactly. There are some who believe the Rapture will occur mid-way through the Tribulation. It is the 2nd half of the Great Tribulation that is supposed to be the worst.

During the beginning of the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ will rise to prominence, and make a 7-year pact with Israel. However, during the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ will show their true colors, and break the pact with Israel. They will implement a new monetary system under which NO ONE on earth will be able to buy or sell anything without taking the Mark of the Beast.

The Scripture clearly tells us that we MUST NOT take the Mark of the Beast.

[doni_georgia]

71. Thing is, these people believe it will be easily detected like a tatoo

666 on hand or forehead. They are so stupid. I am not a premillennialist - or any millennialist at all, but presuming their views for a moment, what makes them think that it will be so obvious? According to their theology, a lot of people are going to be fooled. According to the Bible, even the elect will be fooled if possible. If I was God and wanted to weed out the chaf from the wheat, I would make sure to make the events go in such a manner as to play on people's preconceived notions. I'd probably make the false prophet a televangelist with political ambitions who ties himself to a antichrist who speaks "christian-speak" who could fool all the sheeple with talk of moral values. I would play on people's prejudices to get their hate going. A verse these people ignore is 1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved let us love one another. For love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not, knoweth not God for God is love." That one pretty much says it all for hate-filled folks like Fred Phelps.

[Spiffarino]

86. God is love

Why do so many Fundevangelicans miss that one? Perhaps this fits best...

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. -- Matthew 7

[__Inanna__]

87. Maybe I am nuts

but I tend to think this Verichip thing could be the mark of the beast, if there is such a thing. The verichip is a sequence of numbers implanted in this chip, which if * has his way, will be implanted in all of us. That's about the only thing I have to say on the mark, but I betcha a lot of * supporters wouldn't mind being implanted.

As for me, no way, and I do not really subscribe to the whole belief. Rather, I just don't want my every movement tracked.

[jmowreader]

28. You can never get a straight answer from these people

The general End Times timeline I get from the fundies I work with is: first the Rapture, in which Jesus evacuates all of the fundies to a safe location; then the Tribulation, a (generally seven years) period in which de debbil and his minions wipe out all the nonbelievers; then Jesus returns to establish his dominion over earth. Apparently the fundies get all their shit back when this happens.

I've never quite gotten a straight answer on what happens to the Fundies' bodies during the Rapture. Half of them claim your body goes to heaven when it's raptured (no mean trick considering that heaven is a metaphysical plane), the other half say your body stays here and you get a nice fresh one when you get to heaven.

[journalist3072]

46. During the Rapture

The Bible tellls us that during the Rapture, those who are caught up will be immediately transformed. Christ will come 'like a thief in the night."

There is also another scripture that tells us the Rapture will happen quickly. "He which testifies these things says, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." (Revelation 22:20).

I really encourage everyone to read the entire book of Revelation. As well as other scriptures in the Bible relating to the Great Tribulation and The Rapture.

[Lizzie Borden]

36. Well, you aren't going to find Rapture bumperstickers ...

on Democrat's bumpers. It's pretty much a rebublican fundie thing. And Democrats don't like it because it means the end of the world. Many of us object to that.

[journalist3072]

42. The Rapture

The Rapture is when Christ will have Christians to be "caught up," and meet him in the air. I should also point out that The Rapture is NOT his actual 2nd coming. When the Rapture occurs, it will not be Christ returning to Earth. As Christians, we will meet him in the air.

His actual 2nd coming will be when he physically plants his feet on the Mount of Olives (also known as Mount Olivet), which is East of Jerusalem.

[alittlelark]

11. chimpy is playing on these fundy beliefs.

In doing so, he can create havoc in the world in order to loot resources for international MEGA corporations. b*sh has no interest in religion, or in America for that matter. The junta will utilize both for global corporate domination.

From fundies - end of time scenario allows for all hell (economic and otherwise) to break loose here at home. Wars are expected by them in the middle east so that they can be raptured. They are glory-bound.

From Americans - pride in our country and faith that we are a benevolent force in the world makes many uber-patriotic, and therefore willing to forgive a 'few' lies and wars. The economic devastation will creep up on them, then they will be forced into cognitive dissonance.

My mom is a fundie, and my Father-in-Law is an uber-patriot.

[sallyseven]

14. I don't know about you but if the rapture is coming

I am going to max out my credit card.

[alittlelark]

19. LOL!!! That's one of the problems though!

MANY of these fundies are up to their eyeballs in debt. They TRULY believe they have nothing to worry about.

My mom is gettin' close to maxed - but she's so, so... blissfully happy!
She was almost ecstatic on 9-11, she saw it as a 'sign'.

[bahrbearian]

12. Clinton's Zipper did it !!!!

[Spiffarino]

79. Oh that's right. It was the Clenis. n/t

[TexasBushwhacker]

17. Here's a start

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_93.html

Google the word "dispensationalists". That's really the "calendar" that you're looking for.

[spinbaby]

29. Holy cow!

"In order for most of today’s Christians to escape physical death, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel must perish, soon. This is the grim prophetic trade-off that fundamentalists rarely discuss publicly, but which is the central motivation in the movement’s support for Israel. It should be clear why they believe that Israel must be defended at all costs by the West. If Israel were militarily removed from history prior to the Rapture, then the strongest case for Christians’ imminent escape from death would have to be abandoned. This would mean the indefinite delay of the Rapture. The fundamentalist movement thrives on the doctrine of the imminent Rapture, not the indefinitely postponed Rapture."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html

[TexasBushwhacker]

84. Yes, this is why Bush and others support Israel ....

to a fault. They WANT an all out war to start between Israel and the Palestinians and their supporters. This would fulfill their view of Biblical destiny. The fundies like Israel, but not Jews. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

[GOPFighter]

18. Won't they be surprised...!

...if the rapture actually happens and the Bush supporters are left behind? And all the "commie, pinko, wussie, anti-war, bleeding-heart liberals" they love to hate are suddenly.....GONE?!

Bwaaaahahahahaha!

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. Heh!

:evilgrin:

[Piperay]

69. THEY will either be left behind or

taken straight to hell :grr: :nuke: because they are so evil. :evilfrown:

[fairfaxvadem]

20. And they're all going straight to hell for bringing it on! LOL!!

Having been raised Catholic (albeit a presently lapsed Catholic), this sort of talk gives me the heebie-jeebies. I guess this is what they used to call "blaspheming" back in the day: assuming to know God's intentions, trying to force his hand, mixing it up with the old black magic. Maybe I've got the wrong doctrinal name for it, but whatever it is they are doing, it ain't Kosher.

If they'd even bother to read the Bible they claim to love so well, it says right there, in the Gospels, not to anticipate the coming or try to figure out when it's going to happen, because you will be sorely disappointed if you try.

I go between being extremely amused and extremely frightened by these people.

[bliss_eternal]

33. Such a great point! I wonder sometimes if they read the

Bible completely or just selectively--taking out of it what they want to see?

Seriously, this is a great post! I believe this, too. If they really believe that by allowing someone into a second term is going to put the world into that place that much sooner, they don't know their doctrine at all. It's not for * or anyone else to 'bring on.'

Where's that upside down cross avatar? That's what I need. I've long ago denounced the religion I was brought up with.

[shesemsmom]

38. Wait till they find they are dealing with a *false prophet

and elected him to office to *save us from ourselves*

[TexanDem]

24. then there's the reverse theories!

I don't quite remember from Bible studies the sequence of events, but I know the anti-Christ is a prominate character that must come forth in the final scheme of things. And there are those who think that Bush could fulfill that prophesy! Just do a Google on Bush and antichrist and see what comes up! In the meantime, here's a link in the DU of such a discussion!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=111&topic_id=41061&mesg_id=41061

Personally, I'm thinking maybe that's way too much credit to bestow upon him, that he would have such a "significant" role in the World - good or bad!
I too find playing around with all this is just a little scary, but we'll just trust that the Good Lord knows it's all in fun and curiousity of how other people think!

[prodigal_green]

26. Yeah, he's carrying out prophesy...

as the anti-christ. Well, at least the Pope thinks so:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880

The good news is, if this is true, then we only have to deal with the chimp for another 3 years, because if I recall revelations correctly, the anti-christ only rules for 7 years.

[shesemsmom]

35. He is the Anti Christ

so can the end times be far behind......

[KitchenWitch]

62. Look for the "Mark of the Beast"

Someone needs to look under shrubs hair..

Not that I believe in that stuff, but I thought I was the only one who had passing thoughts that chimpy is the AC!:nuke:

[mainer]

39. I think it's Armageddon that Bush is going to bring on

as in a nuclear holocaust. Some of these nuts are actually hoping for one. That's why they don't see the need for protecting the environment, because end times are coming anyway.

[journalist3072]

40. Rapture

The scripture teaches us that no man knoweth the hour or the day.

There is nothing a human being can do to bring on The Rapture or The Great Tribulation. Those events are up to our Lord and Savior.

[RevCheesehead]

65. Actually, "only the Father knows."

Jesus made it clear that even "the Son of Man does not know the hour." So maybe the jury's still out on whether God is gonna do it at all.

[davhill]

43. Rapture explains a lot

There is no reason not to run up the National Debt.
There is no reason to worry about global warming.
We should kill as many non-christians as we can while we still can

[LisaLynne]

47. Exactly.

And my problem is, this whole Rapture stuff was made up in the late 1800's. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but it was. The word does not appear in the bible that Christians are supposed to adhere to so closely. In the mean time, they are going to destroy or really mess up the world and kill a lot of people in the process for a fantasy. I'm sorry, but that makes me really angry.

[journalist3072]

48. the word 'rapture'

The actual word 'rapture' might not appear in the Bible. But the Bible says we as Christians will be 'caught up.'

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven in a shout, in the voice of the archangel, and in the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and SO shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thes. 4:16-17).

[LisaLynne]

51. Right, but it's still a ...

fantasy developed in the late 1800;s. Here are some links, if you're interested. I'm sorry, but I'm on a computer where I don't have my really good links, but these would get someone started, if they wanted to do their own research. :)

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/cathouse/darby.htm
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm

The trouble, in my opinion, is that there seems to be some sort of desire on the part of the human psyche to believe that whatever times they are living in are the most dire and thus, the end times. The Greeks whined about how the youth of that day were dragging the world into chaos, just as parents today say about their own children. It's a human nature thing. Everybody always thinks the world is about to end. The dangerous thing about this thinking now is that we, as a species, really have the means to end human life.

[journalist3072]

52. End Times

Believe me, when the Great Tribulation begins, there will be no doubt that the end times are near. The scripture teaches us that the Great Tribulation will be a time that man has not seen before, and will not see again.

"...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:21

We are not in the Great Tribulation yet because the Anti-Christ has not risen to make a 7-year pact with Israel.

[LisaLynne]

53. Hon, that is your belief and you are ...

welcome to it. I'm sorry I wasted your time.

[journalist3072]

54. You Haven't Wasted My Time!

I enjoy this dialog with everyone. I'm just trying to tell everyone what the Scripture says about the end times. That's why I stated in a previous post that I encourage those who are curious about the end times, and seeking knowledge, to read the book of Revelation.

[LisaLynne]

55. I think I've wasted mine, though.

Have a good night. :)

[RevCheesehead]

66. I guess we will know if the Chimp is re-installed

"We are not in the Great Tribulation yet because the Anti-Christ has not risen to make a 7-year pact with Israel."

Four years and counting...(but maybe not?).

[davhill]

70. He has so

We are not in the Great Tribulation yet because the Anti-Christ has not risen to make a 7-year pact with Israel.

His name is George W. Bush

[TexasBushwhacker]

88. It depends on how you define a "pact"

Could Bush have entered into an agreement Israel of any kind - trade, weapons, etc. - that was a 7 year term and we don't know about it? They can withhold information on anything FOR REASONS OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

[AlFrankenFan]

49. Would make sense of why they vote for him

I mean, don't they want it to come? :shrug:

[journalist3072]

50. Bush and The Rapture

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

There is not a single human being on the face of this earth who can make the Rapture or The Great Tribulation occur.

Our Father in Heaven is the only one who knows the day and the hour. It is up to Him, and no one else.

[AlFrankenFan]

83. Ya, but they just don't understand that n/t

[TexasBushwhacker]

85. Of course, but that doesn't mean that they won't cause WWIII

to try to force God's hand. How many millions will they kill, thinking that they are, in fact, starting The Great Tribulation?

[RBHam]

57. Yes

Are you rapture ready?

http://www.raptureready.us/

[FM Arouet666]

59. No, he is going to cause the crapture..

As in turning the world into a pile shit in his own image.:evilgrin:

[hatrack]

60. George W. Bush - the first president with his own Death Cult

Just gotta love the Rapture Ready crowd! Finally - a socially acceptable way for responsible adults to throw up their hands, give up on trying to understand and engage with the world, and wait for Jayzus to return and wrap the planet in flame. It's just the thing for the millions of Americans who are tired of thinking since it's just . . . so . . . HARD.

And now, the McGospel-Barn Death Cult Secret Treehouse Club members have their very own action-figure President (Nuclear Launch Code Action Football not included).

At the dawn of the new millenium, we find ourselves strangely transported back to the end of the last millenium, since we obviously didn't get it right that time. Yee-hah!!!

[neebob]

73. It is a death cult, sort of

except they don't believe they're going to die. Last night I spent some time reading rapture ready.com. These people actually believe that Jesus is going to come down from the heavens and grab thousands or maybe even millions of people, alive and dead, at the same time - or maybe the dead go first - and take them to heaven. Pilotless planes and driverless cars will crash, and all these empty clothes will be left lying around.

Why they think they'll be naked, I'm not sure. But it's really not that different from the Heaven's Gate people who committed suicide when the Hale-Bopp comet came, except that there are a lot more of them and they won't commit suicide. They're just waiting to be taken away like one big Calgon commercial, and the worse things get, the more vocal they will become.

They're done with this world. And because they believe they'll be removed from it, they have no stake except to try and convince others to join them now or be left behind and face the choice of martyrdom vs. eternal damnation for accepting the mark of the beast.

[RevCheesehead]

77. Hee-hee ..you just reminded me of an episode of "The Simpsons."

The Rapture occurs, and the Flanders' are taken up. The Simpsons are outside, watching it all happen. Lisa finds herself being lifted up, but Homer grabs her leg and says, "Oh no you don't - we're going to stick together as a FAMILY!" Then the gates of hell open, and they all descend together to its fiery depths.

[Patsy Stone]

61. Let's pray for the rapture.

Really. Imagine the day that all of the moneychangers and the hypocrites and the murderers and the unholy would be sent to hell. All the rest of us, who truly live in the spirit of the Golden Rule and tolerance and love, would be left alone in peace.

[mitchum]

67. Who knows? They just make that shit up as they go along...

I have heard some refer to Tim LaHaye as a "Rapture expert" Think about the absurdity of that statement

[Skydive]

68. Shakespeare understood it over 400 years ago...

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch, and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so.
How do I know this?
For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
-- William Shakespeare

[Kablooie]

81. He's already caused the rupture!

So all he has to do is close off the top of the u and he's caused the rapture too! He's pretty close.