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NYT: Worlds Collide in North Woods Hunting Ground(accused Hmong immigrant)

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:54 PM
Original message
NYT: Worlds Collide in North Woods Hunting Ground(accused Hmong immigrant)
Worlds Collide in North Woods Hunting Ground
By STEPHEN KINZER and MONICA DAVEY

Published: November 28, 2004


....In three decades, St. Paul has drawn at least 25,000 Hmong immigrants, transforming it into the Hmong capital of America. Even there, it has not always been an easy fit, with so many Hmong refugees arriving so rapidly, often with no English and little education or urban job skills. The Hmong are from large farming families from the hills of Laos, where the Central Intelligence Agency recruited many of them to be part of an anti-Communist secret army during the Vietnam War....

***

Both the native Wisconsin whites and the Asians from St. Paul share a love of hunting. During the traditional November deer season they have often met and sometimes clashed, mostly quietly until last Sunday. Some here said they fear those tensions will now grow.

In Wisconsin, mourners said they were still dazed by how a day of deer hunting turned into a killing spree after a group of local hunters confronted Chai Soua Vang, 36, of St. Paul, who, police say, was using their tree stand to hunt on their property. The police say Mr. Vang, a naturalized citizen and former army national guardsman who immigrated 24 years ago, opened fire on the hunting party after he was told to leave....

***

In St. Paul, many at the Hmong New Year events said they feared retribution for the killings. Some said they would not hunt for a while. Many said they were embarrassed by the acts another Hmong-American was accused of, but the case also made them recall experiences with ethnic misunderstanding....


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/28/national/28hunter.html?hp&ex=1101618000&en=da76f4ca16a0d075&ei=5094&partner=homepage
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. The article gives more depth to this sad story, doesn't it?
Some said they wondered whether there was more to the case - and thought they might have gained some understanding when they learned Mr. Vang had told the police that the local hunters used ethnic slurs against him and fired at him before he started shooting. A police statement by a hunter wounded in the incident makes no mention of any ethnic slurs.
(snip)

Nearly everyone interviewed at the New Year celebrations said they had experienced name-calling at some point. Elee Vang, who is 19 and was crowned Miss Deaf Minnesota this year, said she was once spit at by a white boy on a bus. Workers at Tswvtxos Yang's old manufacturing job used to call him Bruce Lee, he said, as if he and Mr. Lee, the late kung fu film star, were close enough.
(snip)

The restrictions in this country have led to conflicts, with some white people complaining that Hmong people ignore or are unable to read fishing limits, clothing rules and permit requirements.

On the other side, Hmong hunters have complained about mistreatment and harassment by white hunters. Since Sunday, Mr. Moua said she had received so many reports of such incidents that she was considering calling for public hearings on the issue.

Tou Ger Xiong, a Hmong comedian, rapper and motivational speaker from St. Paul, said his father, who speaks little English, was once approached by a white hunter who simply demanded his gun. He said another white hunter ordered his brother to leave a tree stand he had built on public land, and threatened to use a chainsaw to tear it down.
(snip)

Mr. Jarvela said he had never heard about clashes between white and nonwhite hunters, but he added that because northern Wisconsin was very large, "if you happen to have an incident, nobody knows about it."
{snip)
Hope the entire truth comes out about this, whatever it is. Anything other than the truth will be destructive.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. And the circumstances of the Hmong's having to be relocated here...
in the U.S., the result of their collaboration with us in Vietnam, is an important part of their story --
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Voted Miss Deaf Minnesota by how many?
Yet spit on by one asshole.
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bucknaked Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Small world!
"Tou Ger Xiong, a Hmong comedian, rapper and motivational speaker from St. Paul, said his father, who speaks little English, was once approached by a white hunter who simply demanded his gun. He said another white hunter ordered his brother to leave a tree stand he had built on public land, and threatened to use a chainsaw to tear it down."

Went to high school with that guy!
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Keep hoping to read about medical examiner's report, whether the men
killed had alcohol in them and if so, how much. I know there are lots of responsible, serious hunters out there. Sadly, through direct observation, I also know there are irresponsible ones who are not serious about hunting, but looking to validate their manhood somehow.

Have too often seen 1 eighteen pack of Bud per man per day go out the market door. Not much food with it, but plenty of beer. Beer + gunpowder can make a chap a lot more stupid and threatening than normal. Group dynamics/peer pressure come into play sometimes and that added to the liquor + gunpowder equation creates potential for some really bad behavior.

So, anybody read about whether any of the people involved were well oiled at the time?
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. So if they were drunk they deserved what they got?
This is getting ridiculous. Every thread on this topic reverts to this "they-were-drunken-rednecks' speculation. Lets look at the facts.
1. It was Sunday at noon.
2. It was a "family camp", people from different generations, both men and women ( 2 of the victims were women) (this is instead of a "bachelors camp" which is a party situation, or a "hunter's" camp which is a serious hunting group)

This, to me, based on personal experience, is a situation that does not lend itself to drunken behavior. I have been in hunting camps all across Northern Wisconsin. Even chronic drunks like myself, and there were plenty of drinkers in the camps I hunted, people who were foolish enough even to drink and drive, knew that guns and alcohol dont mix and would not pick up a gun when intoxicated. It was an unwritten rule that would get you "uninvited" from a deer camp, especially the family camps.

the article title is right on it is a clash of cultures. and neither culture is understood.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Glad the crowd YOU run with knows better than to drink & shoot. That
is not true for everybody else. When black Angus cows, terriers, border collies and 12 year old boys working on the family tractor in a field clearly marked "NO HUNTING" all get mistaken for deer/elk/antelope by guys who just hauled an 18 pack of Bud apiece out of the store a few hours before, I think it is safe to suggest not everyone is careful about mixing booze and gunpowder.

Since I have not seen any reference to a ME's report in this case, I am curious about the possibility that there might have been mitigating circumstances which gave the man who did the shooting reason to fear for his own safety. Since all parties were armed, it would help to get the facts before deciding if the charge should be murder, manslaughter or a ruling of self defense.

I can't even walk my dog beyond the edge of town without running the risk of one of us getting shot this time of year. A couple years ago, one hunter shot another... in the motel they were staying in. Shit happens. And the beer makes it more likely. Das a fact!
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Or how 'bout the Greg Lemond turkey shot
He STILL has about 40 lead pellets, it totally ruined his career, although he won the tour 2 more times, metal toxicity eventually set in leaving him with some kind of chronic fatique syndrome.

I was called an accident, but it looks like what happened is his brother-in-law was about 30 feet behind him, and when Lemond raised up to stand his b.i.l. thought he was a turkey and shot him full of buckshot.
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Ima Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I can't see
a hunting party, with women in it drunk by noon. Not buying it.


I'm interested what will come out here.
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pig. Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. so......
women don't drink before noon?

i know plenty a redneck WOMAN that would crack a beer before noon. or two or nine.

and usually, if you are really hunting, you are up way before dawn getting dressed and getting out before sunrise. so you are back at camp eating, unless you packed out for all day - right around 10:30 or 11:00 - which would put you back at stands around noon. with plenty of time for sucking down a couple cold ones, or if it was cold, brandy shots.

not sayin that is what happened. sayin it is plausible. there are real rednecks even in the blue states. and real liberals even in the red states.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. my ex-wife's last drunk driving arrest was at 8:30 AM....
Just sayin'....
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. Two words - Packer Tailgating
Sure, women in Wisco never drink before noon...
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. And that is going to make a differende? How?
This guy admits he shot them. He run after one of the men, shot him in the back. The man was running away. He then came back and shot another man after asking him why he wasn't dead yet.
That's his personal admission, it's in the police report. WTF does it have to do with the victims drinking or not drinking?
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. What is the BIG DEAL?
They were all out to commit murder on defenseless animals this may have just been karma at work. Or not.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. For your own sake, you better hope there's no such thing as karma. n/t
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. maybe it was like Hank Hill's neighbor and Hank's buddies...
when he said he was Laotian, they asked him "which ocean" and he just couldn't take it anymore...
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Xenophobia is alive and well in this purple state.
A failing economy causes people to look for someone to blame. Those who are different make likely targets.

Generally speaking, Minnesota and Wisconsin are fairly progressive states, but that doesn't mean things here are hunky-dorie.

Rather, these states slide along the knife-edge of economic disaster as immigrants struggle to learn the ropes and the old crew blames everyone but themselves for the state of affairs...

The new immigrants don't always "get" the rules, and those with longer immigrant status resent this.

Consequently, "no tresspassing" means "Do it until someone shoots at you." And if you are shot at shoot back!

That is one hell of a way for a community to try to survive. It has more to do with Dick Cheney's wild west and less to do with the upper midwest's interest in going along to get along

As a Wisconsinite I am sick at heart at this sorry state of affairs.
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Okieprogie Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. WTF are you talking about?
What are you talking about? Why are you assuming that the victims provoked this by being racists? Why do you assume that the perp didn't understand the rules? He has been in the US for over 20 year, he spoke perfect english.

If anyone is looking for a reason as to why the upper midwest is trending Republican, look no further than this post. 6 people were chased down and killed. 5 of 6 were unarmed. The anti-hunter bias is so great that it is automatically assumed that the victims must have been racist rednecks who got what they had coming. It is sickening.
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Wow, guess you didn't like post 14 either.
DU is sooooo much fun.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Hi pokercat999!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. A couple of points to consider
First, everyone involved was hunting. Nothing I said had an anti-hunting bias.

Second, since this is almost a local story for those of us living in Milwaukee County, I have exposure to the story in the workplace, the local/regional media as well as its national coverage.

Consequently I might just have something to share that people outside Wisconsin don't know. People's reaction here in Wisconsin is a part of the story you can learn on DU from me, a person living closer to the story than Oklahoma.

It is clear from local media and reactions in the workplace that this terrible tragedy is getting play in Wisconsin (a very pro-hunting state) not because it is anti-hunting but because it touched on xenophobia. And xenophobic reactions are completely consistent with conservatively motivated cognition. Xenophobia is a fundamentally conservative characteristic that represents resistance to changing ethnic population structure (i.e community instability) which in this case was combined with a percieved threat of death while participating in something as common and priviledged in Wisconsin culture as the gun hunting season on white-tail deer. In one story both of the critical core dimensions of conservatism (desire for stability and fear of death) recognized by social psychologists are in play. Walla! Hit the presses THIS is a STORY!

Fourth, as something of a counterpoint, the same day here in Wisconsin a white farmer whose land was posted no hunting and no tresspassing was knocked to the ground, and struck in the face with the butt of a rifle by a white hunter when told to get off land on which the hunter had no rights to be on (tresspassing and defense of hunting grounds is a part of the killings also) That story though it clearly was anti-hunter had no play on local talk radio or on the street. "White guy assaults white guy" doesn't play into any particular social fear, and most Wisconsinites don't own farms so they don't face the risk...that calculus while a minor local news story couldn't generate a media frenzy.

So, I return to my own suppositions not so much as a thought experiment but based on life experience in this country...I am willing to suppose that there was at least one additional multiple homocide committed in some state last week. It probably read like 'son kills parents and brothers,' or 'estranged husband kills wife and children.' We certainly have such things occurring from time to time in Wisconsin and they don't make the national news.

In this state and it seems across the nation, the story of the killings during the deer hunt are sensational not because of the number of victims but because it plays into shared social fears which underly conservative instincts that are to some extent part of everyone's human nature.



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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. But don't you think there's a considerable difference between
a guy getting smacked in the head and someone mowing down eight people, killing six, shooting the wounded again to make sure they're dead, etc?

I agree that xenophobia is a powerful force and all that, but no reasonable person would expect the media, or the public, to treat a simple assault the same way as a mass murder. Regardless of the ethnicity of the people involved, this was an exceptional crime.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I suspect the MASS of the murders was equalled elsewhere
in the USA during the same week but that THAT story was not reported on nationally.

I am not at all sure that this was particularly "exceptional" relative to the number of people killed. I am actually afraid that it fits nicely into the expected confidence fences surrounding median killing sprees.

In no way am I trying to defend the killer or to mitigate the horror of the killings.

My point is only that as a story it makes the national news because it plays to CORRELATES OF CONSERVATIVE FEARS.

THEY love guns but hate people that look different.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Were there any mass killings of tht magnitude last week?
Could you please point to one or two? I suspect that they would have been covered, given our media's love of lurid stories. Opening fire on a group of people is a pretty exceptional event, you know, even in this country.

I don't disagree that race (specifically white fear of crime) plays a big role in news coverage, but this case strikes me as one that would get a lot of coverage regardless. The media love nothing more than a bloody, sensational story to run 24/7, and they don't seem real picky about the ethnic makeup of the players, as a general rule.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
20. That story reflects negatively on hunters. What a shame.

I think the guy was wrong to trespass on posted land. Glad the hunters I run off mine don't open fire.

As far as xenophobia I think we ARE letting too many people too fast into the US. I understand why the Hmong were let in, on the other hand I have heard stories before of them totally cleaning the woods out of edible mushrooms or certain plants in a kind of aggressive manner. Another negative aftereffect of the Vietnam War.

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ladyrae416 Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. A Little Background Info on Mr. Vang....
I live in St. Paul; this is from our newspaper of Nov. 23rd:

Suspect's alleged actions at odds with reputation

But report accuses him of gun threat in 2001

BY TODD NELSON and CHARLES LASZEWSKI

Pioneer Press


The St. Paul man suspected of killing six Wisconsin hunters in a weekend shooting rampage has been accused of brandishing a weapon before, allegedly threatening his wife with a handgun during a family dispute nearly three years ago.

The image of Chai Soua Vang emerging from police reports differs with the man neighbors and acquaintances say they knew — a clean-cut truck driver who played soccer regularly, kept roosters in his garage and was an avid hunter.

"The few times that I saw him, he was a pretty easygoing person," Hmong activist Michael Yang, who recognized Chai Soua Vang from St. Paul's soccer fields, said Monday. "I never thought that he would be this kind of person. I can't say that I was detecting that from him at all. We're not sure what happened."

Representatives of community groups met Monday to plan their response, concerned in part that the incident would stoke racial tensions. Hmong leaders are to discuss the incident at a news conference this morning in St. Paul. People at the Monday meeting also discussed reports of conflicts between Hmong hunters and other hunters.

"The most important thing now is we need to stay in support of the families of the victims," Michael Yang said. "We need to pray for them."

The gathering also may shed more light on Chai Soua Vang, 36, whose background was unknown to a number of community leaders searching for information on him Monday. The suspect's brother, Sang Vang, 32, said he and his brother came to this country from their native Laos in 1980. Chai Soua Vang is married, has six children and is "a good family man," his brother said. Chai Soua Vang had served in the U.S. Army, is a naturalized citizen and speaks English well.

Sang Vang said he could not believe his older sibling was responsible for Sunday's shootings that killed six hunters and injured two others.

"I don't know what to think," Sang Vang said. "I'm shocked."

The earlier incident involving Chai Soua Vang's alleged use of a weapon occurred while he was living in Minneapolis. He was arrested on Christmas Eve in 2001 after his wife at the time, Say Xiong, told police he had threatened her life while he waved a handgun at her, according to police reports. Three of their children confirmed their mother's account to police, who arrived at 11 p.m. to check on the dispute at 2901 Aldrich Ave. N., a four-unit apartment complex.

Chai Soua Vang told officers he and his wife began arguing when he told her he wanted to separate. As the dispute grew, he told police, he threatened her with the gun. Police seized the unidentified weapon, loaded with a shell in the chamber, from the couple's bedroom.

Chai Soua Vang never faced charges in that incident because his wife refused to cooperate with prosecutors, said officer Ron Reier, Minneapolis police spokesman. In a separate matter, court records from Minneapolis show Chai Soua Vang was charged with possessing 108 crappies, which was 93 over the limit, in April 2001. He pleaded guilty to a petty misdemeanor and paid a fine and fees of $328.

While the police reports on the December 2001 domestic incident indicate Say Xiong was the suspect's wife, on Monday the Associated Press interviewed a woman named Deu Khang, 37, who identified herself as Chai Soua Vang's "cultural" wife. Interviewed at the Wisconsin jail where Chai Sousa Vang was being held, she said she was in shock following the shootings.

"We don't really know what went wrong. We don't know,'' she told the AP.

More recently, St. Paul police were called to Chai Soua Vang's East Side home five times since June 2003, St. Paul police spokesman officer Paul Schnell said. Twice, someone at the house — on the 800 block of East Fourth Street — was a victim of a theft and twice they were called on a report of a domestic disturbance. However, police merely advised on the two disturbances and did not write reports, so police have no details, Schnell said.

The other call was on Sept. 15, 2003, to serve a Hennepin County arrest warrant for theft on Xia Yang, then 29, who was at the house. It was not know what Xia Yang's relationship was to Chai Soua Vang, Schnell said.

Neighbors readily conceded the area had more than its share of issues with gunfire, gang activity and drug dealing but did not associate Chai Soua Vang with such problems.

His two-story yellow house is surrounded by a chain-link fence, including a tall chain-link gate with a "no trespassing" sign running across the top of the driveway. St. Paul police helped his family leave the home at 7 p.m. Sunday, Schnell said, at their request.

"This is a bad neighborhood, but you don't expect something like this to go on," said neighbor Jeff Johnson, a carpenter and deer hunter. "It makes deer hunters want to stop going deer hunting. You worry about the person next to you in the trees. Are they there to hunt the deer or are they there to snipe you?"

Charlie Golden-Black, who lives across the street from Chai Soua Vang, said her neighbors were quiet and kept to themselves. She said she pictured him Monday as she often saw him — leaving his house in a suede jacket and dress pants.

"Shame on us for letting this happen," Golden-Black said. "Maybe there was something we could have said to this man. We have been working diligently to try to turn this neighborhood around. I just can't get over it. It's kind of scary. How can anybody that appears to be fairly normal, clean-cut account for killing (six) people?"


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