I'm confused re Ukraine....

[DoNotRefill]

OK, there have been a lot of threads about the situation in the Ukraine. I've got a friend there, and I talked to him this morning about the goings on. From what he said, what's going on there is a very, VERY positive thing. It's peaceful, and it's MASSIVE.

There seems to be little doubt that the election there was indeed fraudulent, and the masses are working to correct it, so that the actual will of the people is accomplished. Elements of the police (apparently the police cadets) have deserted the Government, and so have people in the State-controlled media. The rest of the police and Military seem to be sitting it out. The Parliament has urged that the election results be voided, and new elections held. Even France's Chirac seems to be siding with the opposition (see http://www.kyivpost.com/bn/21929/ )

Bush supports the Opposition candidate, and so does much of the rest of the world. The sheer numbers of Ukrainians on the streets is staggering (my friend reports the true number is in excess of 800,000, or more than 1% of the total population of the country, NOT the "tens of thousands" that the US media is reporting) I've seen a fair number of people here who seem to be saying "If Bush supports it, we must oppose it on general principles." Is that REALLY where we are? That we'd support the wrong guy simply because Bush also supports him?

So why should we be supporting Yanukovych? Aren't we the party of TRUE Democracy?

[LisaL]

1. Well, I just hope we won't be liberating Ukraine any time soon.

That's all.

[Karenina]

2. Yankovych is a "Russian" stooge

Yushchenko is an "American" stooge. Choose sides! :silly:

[DoNotRefill]

4. Shouldn't it be up to the Ukrainians?

The West has apparently sent organizers, money, and international observers. The Russians have apparently sent special forces troops. Which is better?

[Karenina]

7. ??????

:shrug:

[LisaL]

10. Where are those special forces troops?

And what do you mean, which is better?
Why must we interfere with everything and anything?
And if it should be up to the Ukranians, why do you want us to support one side over the other side?

[DoNotRefill]

12. There hasn't been violence yet...

so I'm sure they're keeping a VERY low profile. Just as the pro-western people with guns are doing the same.

As for our involvement, I'll give you the words of JFK:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

Promoting Democracy has long been a DEMOCRATIC ideal, far before the Bushies were in office.

[LisaL]

13. Promoting Democracy seems to be Bush's ideal as

well, as long as it's not here in the US.
:eyes:

[Kolesar]

16. Yushchenko is not an "American stooge"

Yushchenko said he will withdraw Ukranian forces from Iraq if elected.

[JohnKleeb]

18. very interesting

then why the hell are some of us supporting this other guy who actually was a willing member of the "coalition of the willing" Funny eh. I dont know whats going on in the Ukraine but from what I read on Yushmenko he doesnt seem to whats being said.

[DoNotRefill]

22. Not THAT's irony....

I hadn't thought about the Ukrainian military being in Iraq under the current people, and I hadn't heard about the opposition promising to pull out of Iraq.

[JohnKleeb]

24. neither had I

but I do recall Ukraine being a part of the "coaliton of the willing", I do wonder if Yushemenko supports getting out of Iraq, why are some of us supporting the incumbent, sorry I suck at names, I dont know it at the top of my head.

[Karenina]

31. Believe it when you see it.

IIRC, his wife worked for Reagan.

[AP]

3. For a dose of cynicism, check this article out:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=74&ItemID=6746

Ask your friend what he thinks of it.

[DoNotRefill]

9. I can't...

He's asleep now. I'll try to get him tomorrow.

[Kolesar]

19. A fair thesis

When I think of last week's election in Ukraine, I think about how much money Vlad Putin dumped into supporting Yanukovych. Poor Ukraine has been falling into Russia's camp since the end of the cold war. I would like them to be independent.

<- that symbol over there is the Ukranian trident.

[JohnKleeb]

20. so thats what your avy is

I am not Ukrainian, my late great uncle was however, and I do know those people have been through a lot. I too would like to see them be indepedent.

[bush_is_wacko]

5. I support the will of the people

The only thing that bothers me is that Bush had the gall to get involved. In my opinion it is another attempt by him to legitimize his own election. If he is willing to accuse someone else of cheating, his zombies will not look around and investigate his own misdeeds. DEMS ALL KNOW HE F***ED US, but he isn't trying to impress us, he's trying to impress the right wingnuts that voted for him!

Clearly, after reading the story above Bush's game is so convoluted that if another election is allowed bush's candidate and the candidate of the people will be put in power. The Ukrainian people obviously have not made the connection to this candidate and Bush.

I still don't change my previous statement. If it is the will of the people it should be done. The Ukraine will have to deal w/ the consequences.

[LisaL]

6. What is the will of the people?

Apparently, they are split.

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. I believe that to be true

[bullimiami]

8. That is a big problem

Like I mentioned in another thread.

I dont think any of us really know the complete situation.
The US/CIA has been very involved in bolstering this pro-western movement. The candidate is a darling of the west. Russia has of course been involved in the political gamesmanship on their side.

Truly it is another power play. I dont think we really know what has happened with the election, how much fraud or tricks on each side and even if we can trust the exit poll (remember bushco has a history of rigged exit polling in venezuela)

I am all for DEMOCRACY, free and open elections, the true will of the people.
I dont have a lot of confidence that either Russia or the US actually cares about that for the Ukraine though.

[bush_is_wacko]

15. I'm sure you are correct about US and Russia.

this situation is more like the 2000 election than it is like the 2004 election. Hopefully the Ukrainian's will get wise to the situation and vote this guy back out, but for our president to be over there declaring fraud is despicable. I suppose this is exactly what we would have seen here if the Dems had somehow managed to prevent the takeover of our elections.

[SmokingJacket]

14. I would have to live there and/or do a buttload of reading

before I had an opinion I could mouth off about.

Which I haven't, so you haven't heard me say anything.

My instinct is to suspect whatever Bu** supports, but again, what do I know?

I feel for the guy with the lizardy face, though. Poor dude.

[Robbien]

17. There is no proof about your statement of fraud

You say "There seems to be little doubt that the election there was indeed fraudulent" but where is the proof. The US/UK mainstream media is pushing that idea but have yet to provide proof.

What is documented by Senator Lugar's statements is that BushCo has sent NED NGOs to the Ukraine.

The mainstream media is walking in lockstep to BushCo's support of the opposition.

The Ukrainians are being hit hard by propaganda of Putin and BushCo. We are being hit hard by propaganda of BushCo.

That is what we know.

[DoNotRefill]

21. The evidence will be heard in a few hours...

in front of the Ukrainian Supreme Court.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/24by7panews/tm_objectid=14923251%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=ukraine%2dopposition%2dups%2dpressure%2damid%2dautonomy%2dmoves-name_page.html

"The opposition, meanwhile, which has paralysed normal life in the capital with street protests, upped the pressure, calling for Yanukovich to be sacked. The prime minister was officially declared winner of the November 21 election, now widely denounced as subject to fraud."

somehow, I don't see this organization as being a Bushco propaganda machine...

[DoNotRefill]

23. Possible solution: Subdivision like Czechoslavakia?

Who knows?

[JohnKleeb]

25. hmm

see I believe Ukraine unlike Czechoslovakia isn't split among two ethnic groups, in czechoslovakia it was the Czechs, Slovaks, and I believe the Roma Gypsies.

[podnoi]

26. There are no "Good Guys"

Both Yashenko and Yanaovich were Prime ministers and part of the "machine" and likely not the most democratic guys.

Voting problems may have been the fault of the government, or just as likely because of ethnic tensions, because this is a nationalist breakdown occurring.

What isn't coming out is that the side we are supporting are heavy nationalists... publically proclaiming desires to remove Russian books from Libraries, outlawing the Russian language (half the population, especially the elderly, use the Russian language). Because we do not understand the language it is not easy for us to "feel" the tone of Yashenko and his supporter. One of them on TV said they should take (Yashenko supporters), surround them with barbed wire, and burn them. Yanakovich is really stoking fires and does not seem rational and the eastern half is afraid of him.

[elfin]

27. As a former Russian Studies student

I remember that the Ukraine was called the "Breadbasket" of the Soviet Union. They are fertile, and in a unique position oil pipeline wise. A real prize for either side. Apparently, Pootie Poot's soul that Dumbya saw before doesn't count any more.

Remember that everything is ALL about oil. Russia has been making overtures to Europe in hopes of a re-alignment luring Europe more away from the US via trad meetings etc. and NEEDS Ukraine to further those goals.

Either way, the Ukraine is sitting in the proverbial catbird's seat. If Putin wins (ala Bush tactics) watch for some real hardball on pipeline issues. If he loses, watch for nasty nuke trades and footdragging on the nuke/uranium issue to get his way.

He is an agile and potent combo of KGB/nationalism to further Russia's importance in the modern world.

[podnoi]

28. Further background here......

Further background info in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1394263


or
Ukrainian elections... the long rant

Article Here

http://lunogled.blogspot.com /

[Paula Sims]

29. It's an issue of positions. . .

Yanukovich (I HATE transliteration!!) vowed closer ties with Moscow and making Russian the official second language. For many Ukrainians, that's a step away from "well, why don't we make Russian the OFFICIAL language, and while we're at it, just reunite with Russia." Ukrainians feel they have already given too much and do not want to be seen as the "little anything" of Moscow.

Yuschenko wants closer ties with the West, but I don't think he means Bush. He wants the Ukrainian people to modernize and build up their country on their own, not a puppet of ANY regime. He sees the ties Bush has with Putin and that would be the death knell. No, I think Yuschenko wants ties with Europe, the EU, and some say NATO. Given the power that Bush has, Yuschenko wants more of a wait and see approach as to how he'll deal with America.

The other issue that I didn't see anyone post (forgive me if someone did) is that Ukraine is sitting on a great deal of nukes. Granted, they are old and unstable, but as we remember what Kerry mentioned during the debates, they are still out there and wanted by many countries. I believe that is the unspoken "prize".


Slava Ukraini! (Honor and Glory to Ukraine)

[LisaL]

30. Those ties Bush supposedly has with Putin must not be

worth much. Considering Putin supports Yanukovich, and Bush supports Yuschenko. As for Nato, Yuschenko said personally he wants Ukraine to join Nato.

[DoNotRefill]

32. I thought all the nukes had been withdrawn....

Google turned up this: http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/ukraine/weapons/mslwrhd.htm

"With all nuclear warheads withdrawn to Russia, Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma stressed Ukraine's commitment not to deploy, produce, or receive nuclear weapons. He also expressed his hope that aid to Ukraine would continue now that all the provisions of the Trilateral Statement have been fulfilled.
"

Source is NTI, which is Ted Turner's Baby....