What have we learned from this election?

[AnIndependentTexan]

A simple quote to remember when thinking about this: If you did not learn anything then you can not grow.

[Leilani]

1. What I learned from this election:

That I was right in thinking that John Kerry could not win.

That whoever hires Bob Shrum will lose an election.

That Dems still don't have a unified message.

[Leilani]

2. Also, if you continue doing the same things over & over

the outcome will not change.

[Demit]

3. that the problems with the last election were not a one-off.

That the last 4 years were not about fixing the problems, but about making them more entrenched. That I shouldn't have assumed Congress and state officials were fixing them; I should have been watching to make sure they were, and weighing in when I saw they weren't.

I hope we've all learned this, and will be the pesky gadflies for constructive change that those in power can't ignore any longer.

[MikeNY]

4. my opinion (LONG)

The democrats need to stop feeling bad for themselves and trying to push the vote fraud story. Its Nov. 29th and the election is lost!!! Even if vote fraud was a major factor in the loss, it was covered up enough that we'll never be able to expose it beyond a reasonable doubt in the states that _mattered_ for victory. Lets face it, its a dead end.

Democrats need to step away from the fringe by endorsing people like Moore and rejecting things that matter to swing states: organized religion, family values, a strong military outright. Even if you are a hard leftist that doesnt identify with this, these people do not win elections, they discredit the party to moderates and the average person and look like conspiracy nuts. do you like jerry falwell? NO? Well most republicans hate sharpton as much as you hate falwell...


the GOP plays on the fringe and makes democrats look bad... which is how...

...republicans have turned "liberal" into a bad word through spin. they have made it bad to be a liberal and good to be a conservative, even though republicans are not conservative in any traditional sense whatsoever.

democrats can't be completely gutless that everyone in the democratic party turns into republicans. democrats can run on religion and family values without compromising their core values. running a candidate that initially supported the iraq war and then rejected it, however, DID compromise core values. tell people whats really on your mind with real figures and not propaganda. Bush's success in this election was going to every battleground state and repeating the same speech over and over.

Kerry tried to do the same thing and it failed. using catchy phrases every single speech over and over like "He outsourced the job to Afghan warlords!" does not win an election. repetition only wins elections for the guy whose already president

The 2004 election made the same mistakes gore did

1) bad timing. lewinsky scandal ruined gore. terrorism issue ruined kerry. lewinsky scandal was clintons fault, 9/11 was bushs fault. get it? no matter how much you want to sugar coat it and blame it on something else, that was the main factor.

2) southerners no longer identify with democrats. they didnt identify with gore or kerry. both gore and kerry occasionally seemed condescending in both their demeanor and spoken word. battleground state people think democrats are elite city folk, even though the elite city folk pay for rural americas farm subsidies and standard of living through taxation.... is this a reason to run a campaign primarily targetting large cities? NO. Only people in this chat room are that naive. because the most populated areas of this country _cannot_ win an election outright. It is time to identify with the swing areas of the country and find common ground, not alienate them further.

by 2008 if bush continues his spend thrift policies and things are still bad regarding foreign policy democrats will have a real chance of making progress.

it is time to find a candidate with some balls. howard dean was a dangerous man to the democrat established tradition of being "wimpy" because he said what he believed even if nobody liked it. And guess what, BUSH did the exact same thing. except Bush never yelled into a microphone like a pro-wrestler.

find someone that is not a politician. you know BUSH won because he gives an illusion that he is a man of the people, or a populist. IS HE REALLY? Hes a billionaire from texas. CLINTON was the same way, except he really did come from a poor background.

All of the great democratic presidents have been men that have been willing to say something unpopular and be consistant. Look in your history books people. This is the only way to carry the swing states. The only different here is if you get someone whose an intellect and not just campaigning on raw emotion (Kerry) you have a better chance of winning in 2008. kerry was too progrssive for his own good without substance to back it. He has strong character but thats all he had to offer. and for most swing states they already had a man of character... GW Bush. sadly enough, thats how it was perceived.

[Swamp Rat]

5. That they will continue to steal elections right in front of our faces

and the Democratic leadership needs TO GET OFF THEIR ASSES AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT NOW!!!... and so does the rest of America.

The great patriots here on DU must scream ELECTION FRAUD! in public to whomever is within earshot... supermarket checkout lines, the mall, schools, universities, where ever we go. I do it all the time. Occasionally, a right winger challenges me or calls me a name, but I immediately demand that they go enlist in the military at once and offer a ride. When they decline (every time) for whatever reason, I call them a coward, hypocrite, and un-American.

"How dare you, you stupid librul! You can't ca..." - CHICKEN! COWARDLY CHICKEN! ... BOKK, bok bok bok!... CHICKEN! Look everybody! This guy is to afraid to support American troops by GOING THERE AND HELPING THEM! Bigmouth chicken!

[forgethell]

7. While I appreciate your sentiments,

I absolutely see no logical connection between vote fraud and enlisting in the military. If you, regardless of the purity and nobility of your motives, are being a jerk, then you are a hypocrite if you complain of others being jerks back.

In other words, I do not see how our actions, as you describe them, help our cause. Perhaps you can explain what you accomplish other than let off steam, something that could be better done in private.

Not that I don't sympathize.

[Swamp Rat]

8. I wasn't trying to draw a logical connection in the post above.

I was just merely recounting a chain of events that occurred AFTER telling folks about voter fraud, like during protests that I have actively participated in. Just telling people of voter fraud in the mall is no cause for right wing assholes to boisterously call me a "commie traitor" or a "sand-nigger lover," etc. That's when the gloves come off, so to speak.

If you voted for Bush, then you MUST support his war by GOING there, otherwise you are a coward. Since I have family there in combat that don't want to be there, whom DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH, I feel justified in "being a jerk," as you put it. I don't know how you extrapolated that I am I hypocrite because I "complain of others being jerks back." People that voted for Bush have put my family directly in harms way and I am pissed off, especially after they call me names for no good reason.

What has helped our cause so far? Sitting on our hands at home, complaining to four walls? You (not you personally) are free to call me a jerk for making scenes in public, such as the one I described above, but I want Americans to WAKE UP! I have no tolerance for armchair generals buying war games in malls for their X-Box. The funny thing is, I am a pacifist who is against killing, period. I would NEVER go kill Iraqis or any other, but we have millions of assholes here in the USA that vote and talk big, but let others die in their stead. THEY are jerks and hypocrites whose actions may get a member of my family killed.

Maybe if I didn't have family there I would be more content with logical discourse, which I do here most of the time, but it is very rare to find a Bush supporter capable of that. After four years of being called dirty names, racial epithets and a traitor because I am against war, I'm not going to take it anymore.

[forgethell]

10. Well, you're right,

expressing your opinions about voter fraud is no reason to be called names. however, if you are calling people names like "coward", you should not be too offended if they respond in kind.

As for being a coward if you voted for Bush, then not enlist, that is total nonsense, and you know it. Just for the record, I didn't vote for bush. but there could be other reasons to vote for him besides the war. The famous "values", for instance. Perhaps they voter would benefit, or think they would benefit, from his economic policies. ETC. But even if they voted because of an approval of his war policies, they could be too old, or have other reasons. Not that they need one. there is NO draft. They have NO legal obligation without one. And there, again, is no logical connection. I can enjoy a good steak without wanting to kill the steer myself. (That's an analogy, by the way). I would, if I had to, but there are professionals who do it for me.

Again, this is not to support Bush or the war, just to point out that ad homeniem attacks are logically invalid. As for your family in Iraq, I'm sorry for them, but what did they think they were signing up for when they joined the armed forces?? Free education?

As for name-calling, well don't let me inhibit you. I just think that lowering our discourse harms our cause. Thinking instead of emoting is what we need if we ever wish to win another election (or prevent one from being stolen. But, hey, we still have freedom & liberty in this country this week. Go right ahead.

[Swamp Rat]

11. It is not "total nonsense" to say one is a coward if they support Bush

yet are unwilling to go to war. Again, you are re-arranging the sequence of events. I was describing an event, one of many, where I defended myself.

"I would, if I had to, but there are professionals who do it for me." - Enjoy your steak. There's plenty of roasted flesh in the ME. You can have it shipped to your front door if you wish... my point, of course, is to point out the callousness of your analogy.

"Again, this is not to support Bush or the war, just to point out that ad homeniem attacks are logically invalid." - What does SELF-DEFENSE have to do with this assertion?

"As for your family in Iraq, I'm sorry for them, but what did they think they were signing up for when they joined the armed forces?? Free education?" - You are starting to piss me off, but I don't have time to rip you a new one for this insult as I have a class to teach in an hour.

Your post is patronizing and insulting, and btw, I know what analogies are. Where did you get YOUR Ph.D.?

[forgethell]

13. Well, yes, it

is total nonsense. The case, or lack thereof, for war, does NOT depend upon the proponent's willingness, or ability, to fight himself. So attacking a Bush adherent for not accepting your generous offer to drive him to the enlistment office is not a logical argument. Just tell 'em they're jerks.

Nothing callous about my analogy. I was just pointing out that if I wanted a war (I don't), there are people who will fight, and I don't have to. Nor do you.

As for your family, get pissed at them for signing up, if it bothers you so much. Everybody knows the military is about using force in support of US policy, up to killing and being killed. Your real argument is with the ones who took us to war, and about their reasons. No, that's right, you're a pacifist.

As for my Ph.D. University of Alabama, 1994, in engineering. Where did yours come from??

[Swamp Rat]

16. delete

not worth it

[Pachamama]

14. While I don't go as far as you in taunting them, I will admit that I have

found myself taking off the gloves a lot more lately and pointing out the hypocrisy of the Repukes that try to challenge me or criticize my support of Kerry and the Democratic Party or my opposition to the War on Iraq.

Good for you in fighting these people....And they can't stand it when you point out what cowards they are or even simply ask them: "Oh, you support Bush and this War on Iraq, have you already been over there to fight?"

[Swamp Rat]

19. Well, I gotta defend my family and myself somehow.

The arguments invariably start when some asshole butts in one of my conversations and makes sarcastic remarks and insults me and my family.

It's amazing what lengths these armchair generals - cowards - will go to suppress any conversation about voter fraud. They usually change the conversation and ALWAYS resort to insults. When I say they are cowards, I am not insulting them. I am just pointing out a fact.

Deep down inside they know they are cowards.

[mandyky]

6. Even an "electable resume`" can be defeated by GOP dirty tricks PLUS

We need more rural and Southern outreach.

We need to build our media (like AAR) and improve our language skills.

We need a clear message, and a messenger who can fight and speak clearly. (I voted for Kerry, but I STILL don't know where he stood)

More grassroots effort and support by the party. Hopefully, the new DNC chair is more grassroots friendly.

We have to expose the GOP plan for what it is, and not what _they_ say it is. We have to reclaim the word liberal and better define it.

[radwriter0555]

9. That free, fair and honest elections in the USA are a thing of the past.

Democracy is dead.

Heil Bush.

[donsu]

12. to vote using paper ballots, counted by hand with an audience

nt

[greenohio]

20. at the precinct with candidate representatives present, on video tape

[Javaman]

15. to not let the repukes play with matches...

[NightTrain]

17. To forget about the Democratic Party. They're no longer worth the effort.

I live in a solid blue state, so fuck it. From now on, I vote for the Green Party!

[fshrink]

18. Obviously not much. nt