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Here's an idea: abolish the FED

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 07:23 AM
Original message
Here's an idea: abolish the FED
Every time one of us uses the phrase "with my tax dollars", I keep wondering why we don't just launch a mass NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION movement.

The Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank that is unconstitutional, anyway, and what we are doing is paying interest on heavy, heavy debt that is basically run up cost-free by wealthy industrialists and bankers here and abroad. The fact is that the higher the deficit, the more interest WE pay, so it's no big deal to THEM. It just puts us into greater servitude, and generations to come. This is what they have done to "own" other countries--loaned them massive amounts of money they couldn't pay back and then forced them to become slaves to empire.

Our constitution expressly states that only Congress is to issue currency. 23 states never even ratified the act to create the FED. Congresspeople have for decades gone along with the program because they get bribed/threatened to do so.

Want to unleash the chains that bind us? Abolish the FED and stop paying dividends to imperialists in the form of "interest" on their loans!

Read more here: www.mindcontrolforums.com/fr2.htm

I think this would be a good thing to discuss with constitutional lawyers/economists.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. eh?
Unconstitutional? Not sure where you got that. True the First Bank of the US was deemed unconstitutional and the Second Bank of the US was shut down by Jackson for political reasons (dubious ones, see below), but where did you get the impression that the current bank of the US (the Federal Reserve) is unconstitutional? Not calling you a liar, but I would like to know what backs that assertion.

Secondly, even if it is unconstitutional, abolishing it is a baaaaaad idea. Last time we tried that, the flood of money into the banks prompted wild speculation in superflous canals and railroads as the banks had no other places to invest their money. After the speculative boom ended, the economy fell flat in the Panic of 1837 and the US entered its (to that date) worst depression ever. With stocks valued (at what many claim to be) unrealistically high, closing the fed tomorrow would send that money someplace - likely into the stock markets (especially with Glass-Steagal repealed), prompting another bust. I think there is also a lesson here to be learned re: social security privitization.

Either way - i dont think its a good idea.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I Agree with this Analysis
You just need to look at how banks did business before the great depression to see why the FED is a good idea. At the very least before getting us all on board to dump it you need to have an idea about what to put in its place.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. whoops
i never put the part below about Jacksons' dubious justifications: put simply, he wanted to subsidize the banks by increasing their access to savings.... again, sounds like **'s SS plan
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Jackson. maybe not so dubious:

1829 - US President Andrew Jackson
"You (the Bankers) are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the grace of the eternal God, I will rout you out.
If Congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper money, it was given to be used by themselves, not to be delegated to individuals or corporations."

1881 - US President James Abram Garfield (assasinated)
"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce."


The point is to have enough cash/credit in circulation so that people can trade the goods and services for which there is demand. Then the economy is healthy.
Why should the management of the economy be in private hands?

If nothing else, surely the government wouldn't have to pay interest on money it borrows from itself.

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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. inflated monetary supply
in some senses, the fed is already irrelevant anyway; with the scads of creditcard debt out there now and the re-fi craze, corporate lenders have effectively skirted the fed and run a defacto easy-money policy for the last 7 years.

If anything, strengthening the Fed may be in order. Or at the minimum, restricting the amount of loans that credit companies may make as to control their ability to effectively set monetary policy.
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. then go to what...a gold standard?
You realize that would be the death of the keynes economic policies right...We would not be able to have an activist government without the fed....seems like a good idea to restrict it under shrub, but what happens when we win?

bad idea.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. is the gold standard the only alternative
to privitized management of the economy?
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What privatized management
The only people I've seen that suggest that the Fed is private are holocaust-denying anti-Semites, who think the Fed is controlled by Jews.

What is the basis for thinking the Fed is private?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. well, leftandproud agrees that it is not the government that manages
the economy - if it were then we'd have communism, or so the argument goes.
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. no..
you can have government management of the economy...communism.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. it's the people's economy, the people's government;
is healthcare funded with tax money also communism?

do you think everything should be privitized?

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well, perhaps not abolished but
Edited on Mon Nov-29-04 02:15 PM by Carolab
why should the FED be private? Why shouldn't it be controlledby the Congress, as the constitution proposed? The people aren't making money of the Treasury securities; the FED is. They keep printing paper, and all we are doing is paying interest on their investments. Please tell me how this makes sense.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. What do you mean by 23 states?
The federal reserve system was created by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, not any constitutional amendment that needed ratification by the states.

The banking system in this country would collapse without the Fed.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Sorry if I confused you but
Edited on Mon Nov-29-04 05:57 PM by Carolab
please just read the document. It is really extremely well-written and explains so much of what is going on right now (one world government, etc.) and what can be done about it. It explains how WE, the people, can "buy back the FED" and control the supply of money. Just read it, okay?

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/fr2.htm
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OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. The Fed
http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/federal_reserve.shtml

<snip>

OWNERSHIP OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE


Most Americans, if they know anything at all about the Federal Reserve, believe it is an agency of the United States Government. This article charts the true nature of the "National Bank."
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thank you; this is VITAL to understand and discuss
According to my understanding from these two documents above, this is the situation we are in:

Thanks largely to a 1914 act that created the Federal Reserve Bank under President Wilson, we now have a privately owned Federal banking institution instead of a publicly owned bank, contrary to our constitution which permitted only Congress to control our currency. This unfortunately has allowed a concentration of wealth in the hands of a few bank shareholders, largely through family lines and connections that can be traced back to the Bank of England.

Through the last century this group has consolidated control of most major banking institutions under the Federal Reserve. It has thus gained control over us and the better part of the world. The monolithic structure that has developed has worked to place us in increasing indebtedness. The more we place ourselves in debt to their financial structures, the more we place ourselves into servitude to them.

As it is now, when the U.S. government needs money, the Fed just prints the needed currency (backed up by virtually nothing but promises) and charges the government interest on this money. This spreads debt all over the world to guarantee profit for these private interests, and leaves us paying the interest on the debt with our income taxes. In other words, they are making money at our expense, and their profit structure is causing us to pay increasing amounts of interest, in the form of "income tax". This leads to another point: income taxes are not and were never legal, since this amendment was never fully ratified by the states. (P.S. A lot of cases have come forward and been dismissed in some states when people object to paying their taxes when they offer the foregoing defense.)

This system has also worked well to take control over other countries of the world. We loan them more money than they can afford to pay back and in return exact demands from them about developing their countries with American institutions. If they resist, we replace them. If we can't replace them, we declare war on them, profit from the war and take over their country at even greater expense to the taxpayers (and with great bloodshed of all populations involved).

In its essence, this is the kernal of the "one world government" doctrine that the Council for Foreign Relations supports. The neoconservative version of it is far more extreme and direct--a "new world order" that is not the result of economic agreement or peaceful diplomatic negotiations or allied agreements, but rather a more Straussian/Orwellian version wherein might makes right and the ends justify the means. Of course, peak oil and the increasing demands from rival powers do have a great deal to do with the thinking behind this unilateral, military "solution" to our problems.

The document I posted above asserts that we have a legal and Constitutional means to change the situation for ourselves. How? Principally by declaring the private ownership of the Fed unconstitutional, and return ownership to the public. There are ways in which we can achieve a solution, detailed in the above document. As I understand it, part of the proposal is to demand that the letter of our Constitution be followed, which is that only Congress has the right to dictate the printing of our currency. The other part involves taxpayers buying back the Fed's "original investment" of $450 million.

According to what I also understand from the above document, if we were to enact this plan, we would regain control of our banking industry with Congress as the regulatory body, and we would cut our income tax burden by up to 40%. The question is how this is to be accomplished. Do we do this through petition to our government? There are remedies described in the first document I posted, and I invite others to review these for input.

Perhaps, with a carefully crafted and constitutionally legally sound class action suit, we might bring our case to court. Of course, the longer we wait, the more likely it becomes that the supreme justices will be replaced with those sharing an even more radical view. In the meanwhile, legislation has been passed or is pending to further strip us of our rights and even to destroy the constitution itself. What's more, we are "at war", and as such any actions brought against our government can be construed as an act of sedition--even though this particular action should be wholly within our Constitutional purview.

Another action which might occur is that we cease to support any and all debt that has thus been unconstitutionally incurred. We could accomplish this in the form of a nationwide income tax strike, or in the form of a general strike by which we refuse to make payments on installment debt. There are no debtor's prisons. The creditors would have no buyers for our assets if everyone went on strike. This would cripple the system, at least for the short term, and long enough to force the situation to change. This is a radical solution, and would require a great deal of, perhaps impossible, concerted effort.

The other solution is a legal and less logically difficult route to take. We could accomplish it by establishing an ad hoc, bipartisan, group of constitutional scholars, economists and attorneys to develop a sound and legal approach to this extremely complex threat. I would greatly appreciate any discussion of this.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
17. Questionable information from a questionable source
I just followed your link, and it appears to be a site for people who believe they have had electronic mind control devices implanted in their brains. Hardly a a context to inspire confidence!

Beyond that, these anti-Federal Reserve screeds generally come out of a background of right-wing conspiracy theory and are heavily laced with covert anti-Semitism and dark mutterings about the Rockefellers, the CFR, and the menace of the New World Order. The piece you link to is entirely typical.

Anyone who doubts this can look at the footnotes, which are full of references to titles like "The New World Order, Saving America," "Dark Secrets of the New Age," "En Route to Global Occupation " and "New World Order: The Ancient Plan of Secret Societies."

Well-meaning liberals sometimes fall for this kind of tripe because on the surface it seems anti-corporate. But a little investigation makes it clear that the people who promote these conspiracy theories are actually the most extreme of reactionaries and enemies of any sort of liberalism.
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