Gay marriage historically

[NewJeffCT]

I'm no expert on this subject, but I wonder if somebody could fill me in on gay marriage historically. One of the RW talking points now is that within X number of years, legalization of gay marriage brought down the Roman Empire. Even if this outrageous talking point is true, if I'm not mistaken, there were some Christian churches that actually performed gay marriages for centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire with the practice actually stopping only several hundred years ago.

Can anybody confirm my thinking on gay marriages after the Roman Empire? (a link would be helpful...) Also, was it the Catholic Church that allowed it, or was it the Orthodox Christian church? Or both, or another Christian faction?

Also, are there any good refutations of that RW talking point of the fall of the Roman Empire due to gay marriage?

Thanks

[shoelace414]

1. Christianity brought down the Roman empire.

[Bridget Burke]

2. First--supply a link to Roman Gay Marriage....

It's news to me.

The fall of the Roman Empire is a pretty big subject--& Christianity was partly at fault.

[NewJeffCT]

5. no link

I've just heard it a few times while flipping through things on the radio or on TV... I've heard it enough over the past month or two to realize it's out there as a talking point.

[LisaLynne]

3. Yeah, it was gay marriage.

Not the over-extention of their military, bad water, disease, unemployment, inflation, and some crazy emporers who started partying away the treasury. Nope. It was gay marriage!

[Squeech]

4. Hogwash

There are many factors responsible for the decline and fall of the Roman empire-- in fact there was a whole big book written on the subject. My take is that it's never cost-effective to run an empire, which America will eventually learn to its great detriment.

I'd suggest rather that you attack the problem from the other end: how the early civilizations that acknowledged and supported gay relationships actually kicked ass. The greatest extent of the Roman empire was probably under Hadrian in the second century AD, who had a long term same-sex relationship. (There may be more statues extant of his lover than of Hadrian himself.) You've probably heard some of the controversy about Alexander's orientation too.

The most powerful argument, I think, is Sparta, which was a strongly military culture wherein old soldiers were strongly encouraged to be both mentors and lovers to their younger comrades. The theory was that fighting alongside your lover would lead to an esprit de corps that would prove itself in combat, which it often did: a few hundred Spartans held out for several days against the entire Persian army in one key battle.

Admittedly none of the relationships above were formalized as marriage, but I don't think actual gay marriage ever existed in Rome anyway. (And how do the wingers feel about the eunuchs who did much of the administration of the late Roman empire?)

[tuvor]

6. When marriage between gays was by rite

Google, my friend. Google!:

The very idea of a Christian homosexual marriage seems incredible. Yet after a 12-year search of Catholic and Orthodox church archives Yale history professor John Boswell has discovered that a type of Christian homosexual "marriage" did exist as late as the 18th century.

http://www.drizzle.com/~slmndr/salamandir/pubs/irishtimes/opt3.htm

[NewJeffCT]

7. thanks - good link

For some strange reason, google doesn't work on my PC at work, nor does yahoo search. Maybe our I/T dept gets a cut from Lycos, which is inferior, but does work.

edited to add:
Interesting passage here debunks the whole RW talking point:

While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, it was only from about the 14th century that anti-homosexual feelings swept western Europe. Yet same sex union ceremonies continued to take place.

So, you could technically say that making homosexuality illegal caused the downfall of the Roman Empire... ;=)