Question. Is the Salvation Army a fundie group?

[Midlodemocrat]

...I have a family member who donates a great deal to them, but he is very liberal and would be horrified to find out there were a fundie group. I don't really know, so I am asking the DU for help.

[Fenris]

1. I thought they were Catholic?

I suppose one could consider them a fundie group, what with all the anti-gay stuff.

[Midlodemocrat]

3. I did too, but I heard a very unsettling rumor last week

...and I am trying to authenticate it.

[WolverineDG]

5. not catholic

they are a protestant denomination.

dg

[Midlodemocrat]

7. Are they a conservative group?

[Ian David]

10. Salivation Army- Hypocrtical bigoted fundies

Don't donate to the Salivation Army in any way, shape or form:

http://www.ilgreenparty.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=112

Oppose Salvation Army Anti-Gay Hate!
PROTEST!

The day after Thanksgiving - Friday, 11/29, at the corner of State & Randolph Streets, Chicago.

The Salvation Army:

* Fires employees for being Gay;

* Denies equal employment benefits to Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual employees,
and denies equal employment opportunities and pay for women;

* Justifies this discrimination by reference to the most backward
interpretations of Christianity, citing "our Biblical and traditional
position" against Lesbians, Gays and unmarried couples, according to
Commissioner Lawrence Moretz of the Chicago Salvation Army; and

* Receives government funding - our tax dollars - while discriminating
against us.


Protest organized by the Chicago Anti-Bashing Network. Call 888.471.0874 or
e-mail [e-mail] if you would like to help organize for the
protest.
Loyola Campus Greens Website
http://loyolacampusgreens.tripod.com/

Also:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6581054/


Salvation Army Rescinds Domestic Partner Benefit Policy
http://www.afa.net/activism/aa1112a01.asp
Today, November 12, 2001, the Commissioners’ Conference established a national policy to extend health benefit access to an employee’s spouse and dependent children only.
Here is a site where you can petition a ban on the Salvation Army:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/616816613


THE SALVATION ARMY:

Discrimination, Donations, and the Kettle Campaigns

An Alternative from Equal Partners in Faith - http://www.us.net/epf/Coupon.htm


a press release from Equal Partners in Faith
While each individual must follow her or his own conscience, Equal Partners in Faith would like to offer an alternative to the fake dollars and boycotts. Equal Partners in Faith has designed a coupon which promises money to the Salvation Army, when, and only when, they stop discriminating against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender individuals in employment, and grant domestic partnership benefits to same sex partners of employees.

This effort promises to give money rather than takes it away, to reward rather than punish. The coupon is available for downloading and printing at http://www.us.net/epf/Coupon.htm.

[Midlodemocrat]

15. Great information

...thank you for taking the time to put this together for me.

[bones_7672]

40. Yep, we wouldn't want to help anyone who helps the poor and needy!

Who's first into the aftermath of a hurricane? THE SALVATION ARMY. Who is the ONLY religious group that works hand-in-hand with the Red Cross Disaster Services? THE SALVATION ARMY. Who gives to the poor without asking their religious affiliation? THE SALVATION ARMY.

Get a life!

[SnowBack]

48. Yep, just ignore the HATE they spew...

Ignore the crap they do, good idea...

GET A LIFE yourself..

:mad:

[Catfight]

42. Cool, just more gay money in my damn pocket this year! I don't

give my gay money out to bigoted hypocrites, I'm over the whole religious thing, if Jeysus doesn't provide them with enough money then maybe they shouldn't be in the Jeysus business? My new line for the holiday donations, "NOPE, it's gay money, you wouldn't like gay money anyway!" That way, neither of us feel bad.

[bobthedrummer]

58. They AREN'T Dominionist, nor Rapture Theorists, they really help people.

You are a single issue bigot imho.

[SnowBack]

68. They "really help people" except Gay people...

I'm proud of all the non-haters on here who have been checking in...

Oh, and I prefer to go by SIB... "Single Issue Bigot" is SO old fashioned... You know us Queer people... Always ahead of the trends...

:bounce:

[goclark]

63. You caught me just in time!

I was going to call them to pick up donations.
Now, who should I give my donations to? To much for me to put in my car. : > (

[histohoney]

12. Not a Catholic group

I seem to remember it starting in England, I just can't remember from what Protestant group (Anglican, Methodist or what).
I do know it was one of the first Churches to have women in high leadership places. Ranks are given to the leaders, Sgt., Lt. Major, etc.. They are God's army fighting the evils that plague man, addictions, poverty and ignorance etc..

I give to the Salvation army, they run workshops, have low income housing for the needy, run child care centers for the poor, have summer camps, ect.. I have NEVER heard of them turning away a needy soul.
I would need to see some hard core evidence before I would spread a rumor about them. They do fill a vital need in most communities.

[bush_is_wacko]

33. They do some good works

but does it all come at a cost? If you're not wiling to sit and listen to them sell you salvation do they continue to help? I'm not accusing them of anything. I give to them too. Has anyone ever worked w/ them? I'm curious to see just how much charity is given when the person being helped tells them he won't go to prayer meetings, you know?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. I volunteered in one of their programs for street kids in Portland

Their particular function in Portland's system for dealing with street youth was to run a drop-in center, GED tutoring sessions, and provide dinner, showers, and clothing. Thanks to a generous donor, they also held a prom for the street kids, with clothes, make-up, and hairstyles donated by local businesses.

About 1/3 of the street kids had been kicked out of the house for being gay, and I never saw any discrimination against them. In fact, I saw Salvation Army regulars arguing with parents and trying to convince them that their son or daughter would always be gay, that there was nothing they could do about it, but that making them live on the streets was potentially a death sentence.

When Portland's programs were reorganized a couple of years ago, management of the drop-in center was taken away from Salvation Army (because of the main organization's anti-gay policies? I don't know) and given to another non-profit. However, when I ran into some of the kids in downtown Portland, they said that they didn't like the new managers of the drop-in center and rarely went there anymore.

[bryant69]

2. Is Fundie a loaded term?

Just a question. I don't know how you answer this question without also asking the question, what do you mean by Fundie.

Does fundie mean religious (which is how some use the term, the very appearance of religious belief being enough to earn the fundie lable)? If so of course the Salvation Army is fundie.

Does fundie mean donates to and supports conservative politicians? My guess is the answer is no, although some members of the Salvation Army very well might.

I don't like term Fundie because it is too generalized to the point that it is almost meaningless.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Midlodemocrat]

4. I mean RW religious wingnut in terms of fundie

...a term we have used here for years, and by here, I mean in my circle and family.

[bryant69]

11. Ah

The old "Well everybody I know knows what it means" arguement. That clears everything up.

Right wing--what does that mean? If a person ever votes for a republican are they right wing? Or do they have to give money? More to the point, how does an organization become right wing?

Religious seems clear enough, at any rate.

Wingnut is another loaded term--but I assume you mean crazy?

[Midlodemocrat]

14. Maybe you are the one out of step

...everyone else on this post seems to know what I meant.

[bryant69]

19. I guess so

Im out of step with everybody. That's life.

But as for everybody else understanding it, I would submit that everybody has their own understanding of it that they hang on it. But you have no way of knowing that their understanding of what fundie means is the same as what you think it means.

So based on my definition of Fundie organization, I would say they are not. They do have standards which exclude gays within the organization, but they do not take political action outside the organization as far as I know.

[slackmaster]

6. I worked with an SAer once

The guy was such a teetotaler he wouldn't use cough medicine that contained alcohol - and he was NOT a recovering alcoholic.

He wouldn't allow his children to watch The Simpsons.

Fundamentalist? No, just a milquetoast to the point of obnoxiousness IMO.

[Midlodemocrat]

9. But would you have considered him to

...be a conservative in his actions with dealing with the SA? Seriously, a very large contribution hinges on this information, so any info you could provide me would be most appreciated.

[AllegroRondo]

8. They are a separate denomination

but VERY conservative. One of their "rules" is that they may not associate with anyone who is not in their church - the only exception being community work or proselytizing.

[buydonkey]

38. That's not true...

My best friend is a Salvationist, and I am not.

[AllegroRondo]

45. I worked with a former Salvationist

who told me of this rule. Perhaps his diocese was more strict?

[mainer]

54. And my son (agnostic) married a SA girl

Her family welcomed him with open arms.

[SnowBack]

69. What if he had been a girl? Those arms would have slammed shut.

[mainer]

78. Actually, his two lesbian aunts came to the wedding

And they brought their partners. And they slow-danced among all the SA guests. And everyone was perfectly nice to them.

[SnowBack]

80. Always the bridesmaids, never the brides...

Wonder if those SA people would have showed up if the lesbian aunts were getting married...

But glad to hear that they were invited and welcomed...

[mainer]

81. When my son was courting, he was upfront about our family

He told his future SA in-laws that he came from a family of agnostic Democrats and that two of his aunts were lesbians and his brother was bi and that they (his in-laws) would just have to take us as we were, because we weren't going to hide it.

And you know what? They were wonderful to us.

One SA uncle who wasn't "in the know" started going on to me about the boy scouts being harrassed by gay rights groups, and I stopped him right then and there and told him he needed to know some things about our family. Word got out that the uncle had put his foot in his mouth. And when I next saw the uncle (at the reception) he came up to me like a poor puppy who'd been whupped good and told me that others in the family had yelled at him for being inhospitable, and how sorry he was he'd said that, and would I ever forgive him?

You know what? They're good people. Maybe they don't believe the same things we do, but they were tolerant of our beliefs, and my lesbian sisters-in-law felt perfectly comfortable there.

[jmowreader]

13. I don't think they are

They take the Bible as the Word of God, but that's what churches are supposed to do.

Most people don't realize that the SA is a church, but it is. I think it's one of the milder ones--you will never see the Salvation Army build a 65-foot Jesus statue outside a SA hall; they're better than that.

We have a church in town who tries to emulate the Salvation Army, but they always fuck it up. They offer the same services as the Salvation Army does, but when you go to apply for them the first ten questions on the form all deal with hardcore fundamentalist Christianity. The first one is, "If you died tonight are you sure that you would go to Heaven?" (I know this because I designed the form. It is good to not be a printer anymore.) I am not certain what would happen if an atheist managed to fill it in truthfully and turned it in.

OTOH, if you are hungry and need food, when you go to the Salvation Army they won't preach to you if you don't want them to. They have lots of ministers available if you want them to preach to you, but it's not mandatory.

[Fleshdancer]

16. As soon as I found out they discriminate against homosexuals...

I made the decision that they would no longer receive any money from me. Now, every time I hear the ringing of that bell, the first thing that comes to mind is intolerance.

[Midlodemocrat]

25. That is where I stand on this

...but I didn't want to just swallow the rumor I had heard blindly. There are many other places that could receive this money without being judgmental and that is where I stand.

[McKenzie]

17. they wear uniforms for a start

and have a rank hierarchy. That alone sounds damned dangerous and reveals a lot about the mindset. Whether they are fundamentalist in outlook I wouldn't like to say because I don't know a great deal about them.

That said, I don't trust any religous organisation that is convinced of its own beliefs and thus unwilling to accept they just might be wrong. The biggest obstacle to finding the truth is to assume one knows it already and all that.

[greyfox]

18. The concept of giving....

should be that person's and that persons only. Why not allow that person to donate from their heart and allow God to do the blessing? Unless they are giving to GET in return, what difference does it make? There is a JOY in giving where one KNOWS it will do some good. The Salvation Army qualifies.

[Tanuki]

20. horrified?

The Salvation Army has an outstanding history of social service to the disadvantaged. They are indeed evangelical Christians, and they have never made any secret of that. If you are interested in learning about the organization, you might want to take a look at Diane Winston's book "Red Hot and Righteous."
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/WINRED.html

[Midlodemocrat]

22. But, apparently they are very anti-gay

...which would qualify as horrifying to me and others.

[whistle]

21. The Salvation Army is evangelical Christian organization. . .

. . . and I believe affiliated with the Methodist Church of England.

<snip>

Feb 02, 2004

A Religious Renewal at the Salvation Army Raises the Threat of a Church-State Dispute

Publisher: The New York Times

By: DANIEL J. WAKIN


The Salvation Army of Greater New York, long known for its network of thrift shops and shelters, has begun an effort to reassert its evangelical roots, stressing to lay employees that the Army's core mission is not just social services but also spreading the Gospel.

The New York division's new leaders have ordered that job descriptions now state the mission clearly. They have reminded employees who deal with children that they must fill out a form promising to follow the Army's religious mission in working with them. The form also asks those employees to describe their church affiliations.

"Periodically, we have to kind of reclaim the ecclesiastical turf, if you will," said Col. Paul M. Kelly, a former New York division commander who was brought in as a consultant last year to assess its operations.

<more at link> http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/news/article.cfm?id=1223

As for Australia, they regard the Salvation Army as being a totally seperate Christian denominations:
<snip>

Statistical Concepts Library

2001 Census Dictionary
Mnemonic Index
RELP - Religious Affiliation

<link> http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/b783fa5b03524218ca256b3b00149f9b?OpenDocument

[Xithras]

23. Fundie? No. But definitely religious, evangelical, and conservative

As their name implies, they see themselves as "Christ's Army", marching for the "Salvation" of lost souls. I've always found their religious positions slightly distasteful (I was once told by a SA muckety muck that most poor are poor because they made "sinful choices"), they do an incredible amount of good globally and I believe that the message, in this case, is more important than the messenger.

BTW, the Salvation Army, to their extreme credit, is a Christian organization that actually takes Christs messages seriously. If you read the Bible, you'll see that Christ basically said that you get into heaven by being faithful, by helping the poor, and by embracing peace. The Salvation Army does exemplify those values, and is one of the few "Christian" organizations that actually follows his teachings.

Here's the potential dealbreaker for many liberal donors, however: The SA is anti-gay. They have no problems helping the gay poor, but it is virtually impossible for gays to join their hierarchy and become a part of their organization. Like many Christian groups, they consider homosexuality to be sinful, and they believe that only the "saved" have the ability to help save others. You'll have to make your own call on that one.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. Which is where they lose me.

...where does it say that Christ is anti-gay? If they are truly Christ's army, shouldn't they embrace all? I can't quite reconcile it, and I know my brother wouldn't be able to.

[medeak]

24. why did Target not allow them

to ring the bells this year?

[Midlodemocrat]

28. Because they felt that they had received

too many requests from other groups and they were trying to be fair. At least, that is the party line.

On edit: link. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6581054 /

[medeak]

31. Walmart of course

has to put their 2 cents in. That says it all for me.

thanks for the link!

[AngryOldDem]

43. That is probably the definitive explanation

A lot of stores have taken that stance, which has hurt a lot of non-profit groups tremendously.

If a store allows, say, a Girl Scout troop to stand out front and sell cookies, it really can't deny any other group the same privilege -- be it another youth group, or a loony fringe group. The stores are opening themselves up to all kinds of trouble, and it's really not a battle worth fighting. So they say no to everybody.

I predict you won't see SA in front of any store before too much time passes. I'm somewhat surprised that you still do.

[Jack_DeLeon]

76. Cant they?

After all arent stores privately owned?

So wouldnt they have every right to decide which group or groups they will allow to use thier premises and which ones they wont.

[TlalocW]

26. I pissed off a United Way Worker

Who came to my company for the big fundraising drive one year. I kept insisting that I wanted to be able to pick and choose what charities my donations would go to because I didn't want to support the Boy Scouts or Salvation Army because of their homophobia. For some reason that year, you couldn't pick and choose so I didn't donate.

I will, however, pick a gift card off the Salvation Army charity tree - the adult one because I'd rather buy a needy adult an electric blanket than a kid a toy that will be broken in a day, and the SA doesn't get any money off of it but has to deliver the blanket.

TlalocW

[Starlight]

71. Give directly to the charities you want to support.

Why pay United Way to be the middle man? Personally I no longer give to the United Way after working with nonprofits for several years. Do a google search for "united way fraud" and you'll find a lot of disturbing articles. Here's a few:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/catid/64/cpid/105.htm

http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v15/i20/20002901.htm

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1994/vp940927/09270294.htm

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

29. Don't know, but I do know they hate gays.

So I won't donate to them.
Kudos to Target for giving them the boot from their store fronts this year.

[Xithras]

32. FYI, they don't hate gays

As I said in my other post above, I once had a long conversation with the #2 guy for the local Salvation Army region (we were coordinating an event between Habitat for Humanity, The Salvation Army, and a local homeless family charity group that I used to volunteer for) and was "educated" about their belief system.

The Salvation Army is not "anti-gay" per se, they are more "anti-sinner". To them, homosexuality is a sin, and is no different than adultery, premarital sex, or watching porn (lust). They see it as a sin, and people who have not repented their sins are "unsaved" according to traditional Christian doctrine (the exact nature of the sin is irrelevant). They will not allow ANY "unsaved" to be employed in their organization, because as an evangelical church they require their employees to stand as examples of their faith and to help the "unsaved" find salvation through Christ (again, they are a church). They boot active gays (celibate gays are accepted), heterosexual single guys that like to sleep around, married philanderers, and raging porn addicts with equal rapidity.

For what it's worth, I hold my nose and donate to them every year...and both my wife and I are actively bisexual. While I may not agree with their Biblical interpretations, their enforcement seems very even handed and doesn't discriminate against any one particular group, so I tend to consider them to be about as nondiscriminatory as an evangelical Christian organization can be. While even that may not be acceptable to many people, I have personally seen the good that these people do and cannot bring myself to condemn them. Around here they tend to respond to disasters even quicker than the Red Cross, they feed more poor and homeless than all of our local government programs combined, and they do a phenomenal job of helping homeless families get homes and jobs to survive. Beyond that, the Salvation Army is often the first employer many ex-cons get after being released from prison. They actively hire parolees on a temporary basis, giving them a roof over their heads, job skills, and a steady paycheck to help them transition from prison life back into the general public. I know of NO other charity that does that.

[DrWeird]

34. Sounds like they hate gays to me.

Dress bigotry up in religion and it's still bigotry. They used to use the same arguments against black people.

[Xithras]

47. Eh, they've never discriminated against blacks

In fact, the Salvation Army has been on the front lines of helping the poor without regard to their color or religion pretty much since their founding in the 1800's.

As for their discrimination, I'm not saying that it's not real, but that it's not hatred and that it's not focused on gays. Like all evangelical Christians, they have a long list of "sins" that are outlined in the Bible. If you participate in a sinful activity, you are a "sinner" and are "unsaved", and the "unsaved" cannot participate in the saving of other "unsaved". Remember, it's a church, so to understand them you have to think like a church.

In their eyes, ALL sex outside of marriage is fornication and is sinful. It doesn't matter if it's heterosexual, homosexual, or masturbatory. According to their religion, if you have sex with someone who you aren't married to, you are a sinner. There is nothing inherently anti-gay about that policy, even though it happens to catch all gays since they cannot marry. They have never publically commented on the gay marriage issue, but there have been public pronoucements that the traditional family is no longer the norm and that societies laws should reflect that (which some have argued is their way of supporting gay rights without coming right out and saying it).

But, I believe that nobody should support any charity that they are morally opposed to. Even though their policies discriminate against ME, the good they do is so great that I cannot bring myself to refuse them donations. I have seen them feed too many hungry people, house too many homeless families, and employ too many of societies forgotten people to ever consider them an evil organization. To me, the good they do far outweighs the few objectionable beliefs they may have.

[SnowBack]

50. YES, they have actively fought against Gay rights and Gay marriage

They fought Gay rights and Gay marriage tooth and nail in Canada... So when you throw your money into that kettle, some of it goes to fighting against YOU.

Those "few objectionable beliefs" are MAJOR...

[SnowBack]

49. They throw Gay people out of their shelters

VERY Christian... :mad:

I'm sorry that you and your wife think that its OK to give to a group that thinks Gay equals "married philanderers and raging porn addicts"...

Nothing like working against your own interests...

[Liberty Belle]

30. pros and cons

Some have posted negatives about the Salvation Army. But they also do good things. I interviewed many victims of the wildfires here in San Diego, where 2,500 homes burned. Overwhelmingly people told me that the Salvation Army was the only so-called relief agency to provide any real help in the days immediately after the fire. They handed victims gift certificiates to grocery stores and department stores, gave them clothes, blankets, and a place to sleep, for starters. They even helped some people get set up in rentals with furniture. When I loaded up a carload of goods to donate to fire victims, I took it to the Salvation Army--the only group that I trusted to get these items into the hands of those who needed them.

They also do a lot to feed the homeless and the poor. While they are a religious group and have chapels at their sites, they do NOT require anyone to listen to a sermon or receive any religious literature as a condition of receiving help.

In San Diego, where Joan Kroc's generous donation enabled the Salvation Army to open up a state-of-the-art recreation center, the organization helps underprivileged kids with outright grants to talented athletes. I know some ice skaters who couldn't afford to compete if not for the generosity of the Salvation Army.

Although they do have an anti-gay policy, I don't think the government should force any religious group to alter its ideology, whether I agree with it or not. Please balance this against the fact that the Salvation Army does many good works that no other group does. To deprive so many needy people of the help provided by Salvation Army, solely because you disagree with a religious viewpoint, would be wrong. There are many right-wing fundamentalist groups worth targeting, but the SA isn't one of them.

[AngryOldDem]

46. Good post

Most of the groups that step up to do this kind of work are religiously affiliated. And of course it is to be expected that they reflect their respective belief systems while they do that work. If people have a problem with this, then it's time to form secular, civic groups to take over the work that these organizations do.

Social service work could not continue without the likes of the Salvation Army, St. Vincent de Paul, etc. Not with the massive cuts in budget and assistance that many public and private-sector groups are working under these days.

[Liberty Belle]

62. Exactly right.

This is not unlike certain all-male service clubs that do good works for the community, but discriminate against women. Or, for that matter, women's clubs that don't admit men. A private organization is free to admit--or exclude--anyone they choose.

This is not the same as openly preaching that all gays or women or blacks are bad or inferior, which I would not support.

[SnowBack]

52. So if they were against Blacks or Jews, you'd be fine with it?

Let's try your paragraph if we change one word...


Although they do have an anti-BLACK policy, I don't think the government should force any religious group to alter its ideology, whether I agree with it or not.


Or how about this...

Although they do have an anti-JEW policy, I don't think the government should force any religious group to alter its ideology, whether I agree with it or not.


Your bigotry is showing...

[AngryOldDem]

57. But they're not,

so why raise the extreme point?

Again -- there are PLENTY of opportunities for SECULAR groups to step up and help religious organizations take care of the needy, homeless, those recently released from jail, single-parent heads of households, etc. But the sad fact is, such tasks have historically fallen to religious groups because no one else in society wanted to or saw fit to take them up. It is also part of their fabric, as commanded since Biblical times.

Groups like SA and SVDP make no attempt to hide their religious foundations, but that does not mean they shove their religion down others' throats. And, they don't "force" their help on others either, and from what I've seen, their clients are glad and thankful for the assistance.

What is bigoted, in my opinion, is the immediate assumption by a lot of people here of underhanded motives or other hidden agendas of any group that is connected -- remotely or otherwise -- to any religion. Some of us take Christ's call to help the less-fortunate literally, and that does not mean attaching any strings or making any value judgments as we do so.

But Christians haven't cornered the market on charitable works either -- there is enough need out there that everyone can get involved and make a difference. If they so choose.

[SnowBack]

59. Exposing the SA's hatred is not bigotry

What is bigoted, in my opinion, is the immediate assumption by a lot of people here of underhanded motives or other hidden agendas of any group that is connected -- remotely or otherwise -- to any religion. Some of us take Christ's call to help the less-fortunate literally, and that does not mean attaching any strings or making any value judgments as we do so.


I do not think there is any "hidden agenda" as far as the Salvation Army is concerned... Their bigotry is very clear for anyone to see.

People who truly follow Christ's teaching help the less fortunate.... They don't spend money they receive from the public to fight against the rights of people who have nothing to do with their church.

They also don't throw people out of their shelters because of who they are. God made Gay people, no matter what the bigots in a religion might think.

[AngryOldDem]

61. Details, please?

Forgive me if there was a link to this in one of the posts above and I missed it while going through them:

>>They also don't throw people out of their shelters because of who they are.>>

But I am curious to find out more details surrounding this.

[Liberty Belle]

65. I hadn't heard that, but I knew gays who were taken in by SA

after the fires here.

[AngryOldDem]

66. That's why I asked for a link

If these groups worked on an agenda, they would ultimately help no one. And we both know that is not the case.

Did a little Googling on this myself and found nothing, but there were a lot of stories about gay rights groups urging people to put fake money into the kettles as a way of protest over SA's organizational policy (about which, by the way, I also agree with you).

I don't get it. You're pissed at the organization, so you ultimately take it out on the people it helps. Wouldn't it just be easier to pass the kettle by on your way out of the store?

All I know is there have been many success stories at the local Booth House the SA runs in my town. These guys learn to look for and land a job; they go to school; they have a relatively secure place to stay as they get back on their feet; in short, they become self-sufficient. SA gives these guys a second chance, more than what the rest of society would give them.

[SnowBack]

72. Not really hard to find on Google...

If you're gay, homeless and/or married, don't expect help from the Salvation Army. There's a good possibility that you will have to be straight to get a bowl of soup, or a place to hang your hat, or just a helping hand. Just ask Peggy Neff.

Neff's lifelong partner, Sheila Hein was tragically killed in the September 11, 2001 attack on the Pentagon. Following Hein's death, Neff was afraid of losing her home she shared with her partner of 18 years and pleaded for help to keep it.....

In desperation, with money running out, Neff contacted several charities and government agencies seeking help with the mortgage. The National Association of Realtors paid her mortgage for three months, the Red Cross gave $7,900 and the HRC donated $2,000.

However other groups, including the United Way and the Salvation Army, turned Neff down for help.

http://www.ufcw.net/articles/docs/2004-06-04_salvation_army.html

[AngryOldDem]

77. Reason behind UW's and SA's actions?

<snip>

The United Way of the National Capital Area could not help because it does not directly distribute money to victims. The Salvation Army could not help because it is providing assistance only for employees in the hospitality and airline industry in this region who were affected by the Sept. 11 attacks.

<snip>

http://tampabaycoalition.homestead.com/files/1211LossCompoundedPeggy.htm

What she was asking for rent-wise, I can tell you from personal experience, was much more than many private organizations could possibly afford to pay. She is lucky, quite frankly, to get nearly the $10,000 in help that she did.

Her beef seems to be more with the state of Virginia than with the SA. There is no reason why the Virginia governor could not have issued an executive order about the compensation fund, as Pataki did in New York.

And given the massive scope of 9/11, I don't find it suspicious or surprising at all that charities divided up among themselves which groups of people they would help. These groups were overwhelmed -- they had to lighten each other's respective loads somehow.

As for the inference in your link that the SA would turn away an obviously needy person from a soup kitchen or shelter...has this actually happened anywhere? Does SA, at intake, ask a guest what his or her sexual preference is, or base their emergency assistance on the basis of that preference?

[Liberty Belle]

64. I am not a bigot.

I support gay rights, in fact. But this is carrying your perceived "right" into an area that will hurt a lot of people.

I don't support anyone forcing its views onto a private organization, religious or otherwise. By your logic, all women's clubs would have to admit men, and all men's clubs such as the Elks would have to women, in order to be worthy of charitable donations.

If you choose not to associate with that group, of course, that is your perogative and understandable. So give your money to someone else. But by actively persuading others to withhold money from the Salvation Army or any other religious group that does charitable works, you're hurting homeless people, disaster vistims, and needy kids. There isn't another organization that consistently helps disaster victims in a big way, at least where I live.

[AngryOldDem]

67. That's more or less been the advice of some here of late

Not on this particular thread, but others.

>>>But by actively persuading others to withhold money from the Salvation Army or any other religious group that does charitable works, you're hurting homeless people, disaster vistims, and needy kids.<<<

Then we hear about how big of an asshole Bush is for cutting into social programs.

These groups are on the front lines. If they don't do the heavy lifting, who will?

[SnowBack]

70. This isn't a club... It's fighting to keep me a second class citizen.

When an organization refuses to help and works AGAINST Gay people, that is BIGOTRY...

[Liberty Belle]

74. I don't approve of them spending $$ to lobby against gays...

Next time there's a disaster, I'll donate goods, not cash. So it can only go to those in need, not lobbying for causes I don't approve of. They're one of the few charities that will accept donations of food, toys, blankets, diapers, etc. directly at disaster relief centers.

[SnowBack]

79. I can respect that...

My goal on all of this is not to hurt people who need help. My goal is to try to get people to understand that the SA uses funds to work against Gay people....

Thanks for keeping an open mind...

[UTUSN]

35. They Sponsor Oliver NORTH Speaking Tours

That's enough for me. (I refuse to call him "Ollie" or "Colonel".)

[AngryOldDem]

36. SA is a church....

not affiliated with any "mainstream" denomination.

And I will support them because in my city they operate a very successful halfway house for men who are transitioning to independent living.

If I have an issue with their religion, I'll take it up with them after the last man finds his own house.

[fknobbit]

39. I was a volunteer

I repaired computers and other electronics for a year, at one corps. I saw two commanders come and go, one barely out in front of the pitchforks and tar, he was sent to take over another corps in the nick of time. These people remind me, in retrospect, to the Mafia. It is a family owned business, you don't make officer unless some family member was one or you marry one, and they piously stoled almost every donation of value, including cash.

Give if it soothes your conscience, but do not expect the poor to benefit much. Granted some might trickle down and it may vary from corps to corps but I personally, would no longer give them the time of day.

[buydonkey]

41. I worked ...

at a Salvation Army summer camp for five summers.

As has been said above, they are a conservative group, and they are evangelical, but they also do an enormous amount of good. The camp I worked at was for inner city children and the kids loved it.

They do think homosexuality is wrong however, but they're not really psycho about it (not that I'm condoning their position by any means).

After working for that camp I don't think I'll be donating to them, but not because they're a bad outfit. I'd just rather give my money to secular organizations.

[Bridget Burke]

44. "fundie group" is not the problem.

If fact, "fundie" is one of those nauseatingly over-cute words--like "veggies."

The Salvation Army pioneered new ways of helping the poor back when the "Poor Laws" of Victorian England ruled the day. The institution has done fine work for many years. Yes, they're religious. Yes, they wear uniforms. So?

The SA does have anti-gay employment practices; I don't approve & will contribute elsewhere. But some on this thread have pointed out the good they still do & have chosen to "love the sinner & hate the sin." Your family member may know more about the SA than you & may be in the latter group.

[SnowBack]

51. If it was just anti-Gay employment practices, it would be one thing...

But they ACTIVELY work against Gay rights...

[Bridget Burke]

55. I said I wouldn't be contributing.

But there are others here who will & I respect their actions.

People who've been here quite a while.

[mainer]

53. The Salvation Army Church is a branch of the Methodists

I have in-laws who belong to that church. I don't think they're fundies at all. They're conservative about things like gay marriage and alcohol (most of them seem to be teetotalers) but I didn't pick up Evangelical leanings in any of them.

[Neecy]

56. well...

I used to work with a girl whose parents were active SA members, as was she. She used to go to Hollywood & Vine on the weekends to play a tamborine in their band, and that was how her entire weekend was always spent (she was in her early 20's). From speaking to her, the whole thing seemed really cultish and militaristic. Gave me the creeps, although beneath a somewhat bland exterior she seemed like a nice person.

I know they do a lot of good works, but the core religious organization is definitely hard-core evangelical. At least this one was.

[LeftyMom]

60. They have a long history of employment discrimination

I won't enable religious discrimination by paying for it.

[WestSeattle2]

73. SA returned a $500 check

from a Catholic gay\lesbian organization I belonged to years ago. I figure they must have all the money they need if they can pick and choose who they accept donations from.

[Keirsey]

75. SA and Karl Rove

(CBS) The White House Thursday rallied to the defense of a key presidential advisor linked to a controversial discussion about exempting the Salvation Army from laws banning discrimination against gays during hiring.

News earlier this week that the charity believed it had a solid commitment for such a regulation caused a furor, and the White House quickly ended a review of the possible regulation, saying no decision had been made.

On Wednesday, the White House blamed a mid-level staff member for leading the Salvation Army to believe the Bush administration had definitely signed on.

But the Washington Post reported in Thursday's editions that Karl Rove, the president's top political adviser, was a key contact for the Salvation Army.

"Rove was intimately involved in courting the Salvation Army," an official told the paper. The Post quoted the official as saying "nothing occurs around here" without Rove's blessing.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/10/politics/main300601.shtml

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House admitted Thursday that Karl Rove, the president's top political adviser, asked the Office of Management and Budget in May to consider a new regulation allowing faith-based charities to discriminate against gays in their hiring.

White House press secretary Ari Fleischer's admission contradicted a statement he made Tuesday that no senior administration officials were involved in a request by the Salvation Army to develop a regulation protecting it and other religious charities from local and state laws forbidding discrimination against homosexuals.

...

The first contact from the Salvation Army was made to the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives in mid-April, said Jay Lefkowitz, the OMB's general counsel. Lefkowitz said staffers from the religious charities office asked him to look into the request.

The Salvation Army was asking the administration to create a federal regulation to prevent religious charities that receive tax dollars from having to adhere to state and local laws that forbid discrimination against homosexuals in hiring.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/12/salvation.army/



Press briefing by Ari Fleisher:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/07/20010712-4.html#salvation

[noonwitch]

82. Read GB Shaw's "Major Barbara" for a good, humorous take on the SA

I support their shelters and drug treatment programs. They run a great program for abused children in Detroit, and will take addicts who are uninsured into their programs.

[cdp]

83. A relative of mine was on the SA Board for years

And he has some major problems with them.
1. Recently the SA was looking to buy property for a new building. Even though there were more economical properties available, most board members were pushing the SA to buy an incredibly expensive area. The property was appraised for much, much less than what SA was going to pay. The property was owned by a friend of several board members, and these board members were going to make a significant commission (a few hundred thousand dollars) on the sale. People were asking my relative to not go public with this information because it would jeopardize the transaction and "hurt poor people."

2. They won't make financial records public, to let people see where their money is going.

3. They do not treat gays equally.

I have volunteered for them for many years, but they are no longer getting one red cent from me. My money will still get to the poor, but not through the Salvation Army. Are they free to discriminate however they want? Sure, but they can do it without me.