Would Jesus Bomb Nazis?

[Zhade]

Here's a head-scratcher for the Christian DUers: would Jesus have supported WWII?

I've heard alternately that Jesus would be against ANY war, and that he would be against UNJUST wars.

Clearly, a guy who spoke like Jesus would not support the current war on Iraq. But how, in your opinion, would he have felt about WWII?

I have no answer, because while I do know Jesus' purported teachings, I don't even believe in the guy, and I'm not entirely convinced he ever really existed. BUT! That has nothing to do with this thread, except to say I have zero stake in the question aside from the desire for discussion on the subject.

What do you think? Would Jesus have supported fighting in WWII? And for extra-credit, if not, how do you think he would have wanted people to have handled the Nazi threat?

I am all ears. There are really smart Christian DUers here, so let me know what you think!

[mark414]

1. holy shit

you just blew my mind...

i'll have to get back to you

[Zhade]

3. Yeah, sorry about that, I hope the damage isn't permanent!

:evilgrin:

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. jesus would turn the other cheek and his species would go extinct

[Zhade]

5. By "species", do you mean mankind, or Christians?

NT!

[clydefrand]

10. I don't presume to speak for gWbush is Mabus, but I take that

to mean for the Jews since Jesus was a Jew and the word Christian came about after Jesus' death as I understand it.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

Jesus wouldn't have bought the victor's version of history.

Jesus would have fought long before the allies did and might have fought smarter.

Jesus might have shamed the allies into stopping the rise of the Nazi party.

My Jesus anyway.

[L0cke]

4. Sure He would.

He sends people to eternal suffering in Hell. I doubt he would have a problem bombing nazis.

Then again, I don't believe in God, so I can't answer for Christians.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

6. What's it matter?

Jesus isn't here. We are. We have to decide for ourselves.

[Zhade]

16. I read in LBN a post that said Jesus was against all wars.

I thought about WWII, and the question just popped into my head. Call it curiousity on a bored workday. :evilgrin:

(BTW, Trigun rocks.)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. I know what you're getting it, I'm just saying people have to think

for themselves instead of scapegoating every decision to something or someone else.

I know, I know, it's a new concept.

[Zhade]

26. I totally agree with you.

NT!

[Kahuna]

38. I don't recall Jesus ever taking a stance on war one way or the other...

I don't think he was really interested in solving man's folly. His concern was rewarding man for their works in the after life. Wanna be an ass? Go ahead. There will be plenty of time to take care of you later.

[robbedvoter]

7. Like W, Hitler wrapped himself in the mantle of religion

Does that help?

[DrDebug]

8. I doubt it

From what I know of the new testiment is that it is a non-violent religion and not mentioning the use of violence a single time.

The problem with non-violence is that the non-violent Christian sects like the Essenses (some say that Jesus was an Essense himself), Cathars, the people who wrote Nag Hammadi etc. no longer exists today. Those were groups who were completely non-violent and as a result they have been completely wiped out by the Romans (Essenses) or the Inquisition (Cathars).

I think that he wanted to handle it the same way as Mahatma K. Gandhi proposed by non-cooperation and civil disobiedience

[clydefrand]

13. There is certainly violence mentioned in the New Testament

Look at the crucifixion of Christ which as I have read was a standard practice in those times. Also the beheading of John the Baptist would certainly be violent. Read the book of Revelation. That sounds pretty violent to me. Paul himself was a violent man BEFORE he saw the "light" and believed in Jesus. He stoned to death one of the followers of Jesus...maybe Stephen was his name. I will have to look that up again. Perhaps someone less Biblically challenged than I can correct that as well as anything else that I have written here.

[Kahuna]

56. But, what did Jesus do to prevent the violence? Answer: Nothing...

He could have if he had chosen to. But that wasn't his thing. He gave men free will. Free will to do good or evil. And to then be judged accordingly.

[BlueEyedSon]

9. Thats why religious guys shouldn't run the gov't.

[SaintAnne]

11. jesus the original

the real jesus did exist, the question is where do we find him? there is no one answer, but I like to think he was a good guy and some nobodies came along and changed his message to their advantage. He would not have supported any war. When you read the bible, does jesus solve problems with violence? no, of course not. These are only my opinions, I'm studying some Christian theology and stuff at school. no christain am i.

[DoNotRefill]

30. Jesus didn't run the Moneylenders from the Temple with harsh language....

I wonder how a Jesus character would fare in pro wrestling?

"Yea, ye may carry a sign that says John 3:16
But Jesus will put his Smackdown out in the Ring!"

/going to Hell....

[ThreeCatNight]

58. But he didn't mow them down with an Uzi either....

nor did he chase them down after they were ejected from the Temple.

[DoNotRefill]

59. Did they have Uzis back then?

And once he chased them out (after smashing things up a bit), they were no longer doing what he found to be objectionable. He was, IIRC, (and I'm no bible scholar) the only person there who reacted with violence, and he did it well.

[jmm]

12. Well, His Father was big on smiting people

OK, seriously like some have already mentioned I think he would've shamed the allies early on and found non-violent ways of dealing with them.

[Bat Boy]

15. Yeah, but after he got Mary pregnant he lightened up quite a bit.

I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

[clydefrand]

21. I agree the "Father" was big on smiting people which I have never

been able to come to grips with. And if we believe in the Trinity, which I have great difficulty with also, Jesus is the Father as well as the Holy Spirit. Go figure that one out. Now if it is true, then Jesus who didn't believe in violence is/was a better "deity" than God himself, IMHO.

Of course, Jesus, according to what I've read in the 4 gospels, doesn't claim to be any of these. The Trinity came about much, much later in the Christian religion. I could never figure out why Jesus would mind dying if he was God. He knew He could restore himself to whatever form God is in. So why did he say, Father, why have you forsaken me? Makes no sense to me.

BUT I guess we're all just supposed to BELIEVE and we'll find out by and by. That's hard for me to swallow.

[davhill]

14. During WWII some Christians tried to assassinate Hitler

with a bomb. Through a miraculous set of coincidences (The hand of God?) the attempt failed and he survived. Something to think about.

edited to clarify

[Zhade]

46. Wow, I have actually never heard of that before!

Got any links? It sounds like a fascinating bit of history.

[davhill]

49. I got it from this book

"To Kill the Devil" by Herbert Molloy Mason
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393056821/qid%3D1101823244/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-2537001-4060013

[Javaman]

17. If Jesus and Superman had a fight, who would win?

[L0cke]

20. Jebus would.

Definitely.

[Javaman]

27. Jebus can like walk on water and all, but like superman has...

x-ray vision and able jump over tall stuff.
I know Jebus has the wrath of God on his side but superman is from Kryton and can like throw a train really far...

My brain hurts.

[DoNotRefill]

29. Jesus would have turned Superman into loaves and fishes.

And fed the masses with his scrawny ass.

[DoNotRefill]

18. He'd bomb the shit out of them....

but feel guilty about it later.

:evilgrin:

/was Jesus a Catholic?

[Bat Boy]

23. I must agree...

But not because he was a Catholic.

Old saying in my family:

Catholics rent guilt, Jews own it.

[Swamp Rat]

19. good question... for fundies to answer

[xerox]

22. My Eighball says

all signs point to no!

[essarhaddon]

25. Jesus is supposed to be unique

In my opinion, as a practical atheist, there's no point in taking Jesus as a role model. Jesus is supposed to be the son of God, so no choices made by him can apply to humans. Would Jesus bomb Nazis? Well, probably not, but that's not his job. The job of the son of God is giving example and even immolate himself, and I don't think God would expect humans to behave as a Messiah. Jesus, if you're a Christian, is the son of God, and if you're a Catholic is one of the persons of the Trinity, so what Jesus would do is not what a man should necessarily do. Anyway, I know few, no, in fact I don't know any Christian who would turn the left cheek after being slapped on the right one, and that's of course a sign that religion doesn't usually take away all the common sense from people.

[Kahuna]

35. Riiiight. Wars and all that kind of stuff was not Jesus' concern...

His concern was ONLY that people would be rewarded according to their deeds. Jesus would not necessarily prevent an evil person from doing evil as a matter of doctrine. He would do it if it would fulfill some other Godly purpose or prophecy.

Jesus may not have stopped the nazis. But he allowed them to be stopped by man. Or maybe he didn't allow it. Maybe he had nothing to do with it at all. We don't know. However there is scripture and prophecies that may suggest this that the nazi movement was preordained. Men shouldn't waste their time trying to second guess God.

[elehhhhna]

51. DID Man stop the Nazis, or just slow them down & relocate 'em????

[elehhhhna]

50. That is a very enlightening argument. Thank You!

[DoNotRefill]

28. Jesus might have BEEN a Nazi....

"Gott Mit Uns", anybody???

They were big into "Family values"...

[datasuspect]

41. that would be such

a lovely photoshop project.

[w4rma]

31. Let's make this question mores specific: Would Jesus shoot Hitler? (nt)

[DoNotRefill]

32. No.

Guns hadn't been invented when Jesus was alive. He might have stoned him, though....

[w4rma]

33. “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.”

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, “No man, lord.” Jesus then said, “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.”
http://www.bartleby.com/59/1/lethimwhoisw.html

[elehhhhna]

52. ...Then a huge rock flew by, hitting Magdalene square on the head,

while Jesus, miffed, peered into the crowd and exasperatedly cried, "Mother, please!"

[Kahuna]

36. Nope. Jesus would not have shot anyone.

He would take care of Hitler in the after life.

[Kahuna]

34. No he would not. Jesus had no interest whatsoever in our..

secular affairs. Jesus has no interest in our personal afflictions. If you read the new testament, and old, you will see that people of faith were permitted to be persecuted and to suffer. Each will have their reward according to their deeds. The people who cause the suffering will receive their reward. The people who endure the suffering will receive their reward. This earthly existence is of no consequence to God.

[datasuspect]

37. jesus wouldn't do anything

because he is a mythological figure

and

myths and mythological figures aren't REAL

so

they cannot perform actions or condition outcomes in the REAL WORLD.

[Xithras]

39. Jesus believed that it is better to die than to fight

His arguments basically boil down to this: It is better to allow another person to kill you than to raise your hand in defense and hurt him back. If another person wants to enslave you and you cannot escape, turn the other cheeck, forgive him, and be a happy slave. If another person wants to kill you and you cannot escape, forgive him and die peacefully.

The basis for his argument was equally simple: His peaceful and faithful followers will follow him into heaven. The murderers and slave holders may end your life on Earth, but they will burn in hell for eternity as a result. Jesus also said point blank that there are no wealthy, powerful people in heaven. Period. Anywhere.

BTW, I do believe that Jesus existed, but I don't believe the Bible's version of it. Records show fairly convincingly that the story outlined in the new testament couldn't have played out the way it describes, but most of the third pary verifications we have of the apostles stories are too consistent to realistically assume that they are 100% fiction. We cannot prove that Jesus existed, but we know for a fact that the men who followed him did, and we have records of what they taught when they went their seperate ways. I don't think they ever told the whole story, but I have little doubt that at some point there was some central figure in their group that inspired the stories they later told in forums ranging from Egypt and Babylon to Turkey, Greece, and Rome.

[Kahuna]

40. Riiight. Beautifully and well put. That thing is, Jerry Falwell used to

know this. Before he decided to be a rightwing whore.

[DoNotRefill]

42. Thank you...

for proving to me that I'm NOT a Christian!!!

:evilgrin:

[gordianot]

47. You are talking about the Jesus of the Synoptic gospels.

There are older Gnostic Gospels that has some of these elements but paints a very different picture.

Read the Gospel of Thomas and other Nag Hamadi documents. This Jesus was truly a radical (only hinted at in Synoptic Gospels), it is understandable how he must have clashed with authorities of the time.

[Postman]

43. No. Because war, no matter what the justification, is war on innocents.

Don't forget that Hitler didn't come to power in a vaccuum. He was supported here in the US by the wealthy industrialists who seen him as a check against the "bolsheviks"

If you read enough, you'll come to the realization that all wars are fought for economic reasons. Those profitting never do the fighting themselves.

[Taxloss]

44. This reminds me of one of the kooky questions

kids ask their dads. Like:

"If a shark and a gorilla were in a fight, which would win? What if the gorilla had a knife?"

No disrespect intended, it's just such a strange idea that we should be asking whether a 1st-century social activist would drop high explosives on a 20th-century political movement.

[Zhade]

45. Like I said, boredom on a workday.

Interesting responses, though, for which I am appreciative!

[DerekG]

57. You have NOTHING to apologize for Zhade...

Christ's story is an intensely human one; the Gospels have *everything* to do with what is going on in the world.

I suspect Christ would have denounced any war. Remember, the Jews fancied the Messiah to be a warrior figure--suffice to say, Christ didn't meet expectations. He did not inspire his brethren to raise arms against Caesar and his Empire, a man and body not quite different from Hitler and his Reich; although a fierce force for social justice, Christ's emphasis was on revolution of the spirit.

It also might be interesting to ruminate on what Christ would think of this Ambrose/Spielberg/Brokaw glorification of WWII. Is it possible to seethe such pride if one reserves a place in the heart for the innocents who perished in the terrorist bombings of Dresden/Hamburg/Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Kind of puts a damper on the "Greatest Generation" bullshit.

P.S. You probably should have taken this to the Religion board, wherein posters actually take faith seriously; here, you've gotten perhaps a dozen considerate responses in an ocean of insipid Godzilla vs. Jesus messages.

On edit: Relaced Koppel with Brokaw--I guess I confused propaganda artists

[elehhhhna]

53. LOL!

[DivinBreuvage]

48. Well, when He comes back He'll be judging the nations with a rod of iron

which is a biblical metaphor for harsh and punitive rule.

As some posters to this thread have already pointed out, Jesus wasn't quite the "I'm OK you're OK" touchy-feely guy that some folks here like to imagine. There were certain human behaviors that seriously pissed him off and he was quite clear about the fact that some folks are gonna be in for a whole world of hurt one of these days. Not gay folks, though, unless they're a J. Edgar Hoover type of gay folk.

America is rotten with hateful, vicious people who use the letter of religious law to justify their pathological behavior and the evil that they do to others. Therefore America is going to be one of the nations that gets an apocalyptic bashing, and literally millions of people who today believe themselves to be assured of eternal life will be tumbled next to Caiaphas and Torquemada in the Lake of Fire.

[Kahuna]

55. America will be judged because we dare to claim that we are a nation..

"under God." We do our evil in the name of God. We put God's name on our money. We set ourselves up for the harshest judgement ever.

[rustydog]

54. Simple answer?.. Jesus's daddy, GOD ALMIGHTY said something

about: you will not kill.
There were no: except...or in this case...God said you will not kill.

Taken in this light, the word of God, Jesus could not in any fashion support any war.