Should there be a Christmas Tree on the National Lawn?

[Placebo]

It blurs the separation between church and state just a bit too much for my taste.

A 65ft tall Christmas Tree on the National Lawn in a place of major prominence, noooo, that's not too religious. :eyes:

[RubyDuby in GA]

1. Not unless other religions are represented

I forget the name of the case, but I thought there was a Supreme Court case that determined that if one religion was to be represented on public property, then all religions had to be.

[MountainLaurel]

24. They are

Near the National Tree is a huge neon menorah, with a light added each night during Hanukkah, and I think a symbol of Islam was represented as well.

[PsychoDad]

55. I think a symbol of Islam

That would have been the Abu Ghrab creche scene on the white house lawn.

The frightened and naked Islamic family piled one on top of the other surrounded by american imperial troops with flashlights and leers.

[bossfish]

2. "Christmas" trees are a fairly secular object...

...and most of us celebrate the "holidays", whatever religious stripe we may or may not be

[mark414]

6. agreed

none of my family is christian, all agnostics or atheists if you want to label us, but we put up our tree every year after thanksgiving

[ixat]

28. Word.

Christmas trees are more of a cultural thing than religious. Now Easter, that's different.

[Dora]

39. I've always thought it rather pagan

Seriously, you can't get much more pagan than having a ceremonial tree brought into your house.

"Star of Bethlehem" at the top - whatever. It was Christianity's way of allowing the unclean masses to keep their traditions and put a nice Christian rubber stamp on it.

[Mutley]

50. i agree

i am not religious but i celebrate christmas - not as a religious holiday but as a time to spend time with family and to exchange presents!

[PsychoDad]

56. The Bible does prohibit decorating trees...

Toss that at yer fundi neighbors as they decorate for the season. ;)

But I do see it as more of a cultural American symbol, like rudolph or santa.

[donheld]

3. of course there should

That's the nations only symbol for celebrating Winter Solstice. :evilgrin: just don't let'em put any jesus junk on it.

[booksenkatz]

4. We're in debt. We can't afford it.

If the U.S. = my household, I'd raise holy hell if my spouse went out and bought a Christmas tree with the debt we're facing. And with some of our children starving. And after we'd gone and picked fights with the entire neighborhood. Etc.

[htuttle]

5. It bothers me that they don't burn the tree

If they are going to honor my Wiccan religion by celebrating Yule with a huge Christmas tree, they should at least follow through with the Bael fire.

Just saying...

[Warpy]

7. Sure, why the hell not?

After all, it's not precisely Christian, but hails from the pagan tradition in Europe. Shoot, I have Jewish friends who have a Hannukah bush for their kids. A Muslim friend from Afghanistan picked up the habit, too. I find it quite inoffensively neutral, not a bad way to light up the darkest part of the year.

A creche is a different matter, as is a cross, a star of David, a crescent and star, a golden Buddha, or any other specifically and exclusively religious symbol. Leave them in their churches and temples, please, and in the homes and hearts of their believers.

[CrispyQ]

8. I don't think of them as Christmas trees as much as I think of them . . .

as trees getting spruced up for the Solstice. We don't put up a tree or decorate our house, but I do have a lovely blue Spruce tree in my front yard that I put lights on. I also love when people put lights in leaf-less trees. Very lovely.

Now a baby Jesus thing is pushing it. (I think there was a Beevis & Butthead episode where they stole the baby Jesus. I don't generally like or watch that show, but that episode cracked me up.)

[tritsofme]

9. What is the religous signifigance of the Christmas Tree?

This is just a tradtion, and has existed in some form long before Christ.

[CornField]

11. Actually

It was one of the many pagan traditions that Christianity "adopted" when trying to extinguish the religion.

[Zhade]

10. Considering its pagan origins, why not?

I mean, Christmas itself was formed around a pagan holiday.

Jesus, if he ever existed, was purported to have been born in the spring, not in December. So sure, leave it up, it's a cultural thing more than anything else.

After all, I've never seen an Xmas tree nailed to a cross...

[CornField]

18. I personally object to a tentament of my faith

being used in such a manner. If the nation wants to honor the tree, they should do so by using the proper pagan ceremony -- not by adopting the bastard ceremony utilized by those who wished only to burn my family and I at the stake and dismantle our religious path.

I also object on the grounds that this country is not a pagan nation. Therefore, the entire nation should not be required to worship as I do, believe as I believe, or pay for the icons of my religion to be placed on public property.

[Zhade]

34. Fair enough.

As an atheist, I didn't consider that aspect.

[democracy eh]

12. isn't a symbol for the national religion of Consumerism?

be grateful they don't put a big ass crucifix on the lawn come easter

ahh humbug

anything that promotes peace on earth, goodwill towards man can't be all bad

besides it may be a Nova Scotia Christmas tree, many of the big ones are
so why just one?

[teach1st]

13. Choose your battles wisely...

I can make a case for fighting this, but it's one of the more minor issues I have with encroaching right-wing fundamentalism.

Perhaps it's cultural, but as an Athiest I don't have big problems with Christmas stuff on public property, unless it's blatently religious (manger scenes). I look at Christmas tree popularity as an afirmation of our Pagen roots.

We're experiencing more harmeful encroachment than this and at this point in time this type of fight might do more harm than good. Just my opinion.

[Selwynn]

14. Why the hell not?

[Nordic]

15. posts like this really piss me off

We've got a fascist dictatorship stealing elections in the US and killing thousands of people and you've got a pet peeve about a FUCKING CHRISTMAS TREE???

Go get your priorities straight and get back to us

[OneTwentyoNine]

22. Yep,at first glance I thought it was going to be a boycott thread....

Seeing how we have a new one of those every 10th post...

[NCN007]

40. chill out man

its the holidays. Be thankful for something. Sing. Eat a lot of good food. Try not being politically correct or horribly pessimistic for a week or two. No matter which winter holiday you celebrate, they all have the same message: Life can be wonderful when you let it.

[lukasahero]

51. Ok, here we go

I'm going to try not to be as vitriolic as I could easily get on this but ARE YOU INSANE?

"its the holidays. Be thankful for something. Sing. Eat a lot of good food. Try not being politically correct or horribly pessimistic for a week or two."

You know, last night I tried that. I put on some christmas music - some day I would like my holiday and my faith back - and as I sat listening to "What Child Is This?" and "Joy to the World" I tried to imagine the "multitudes" of "Christians" in this country singing the praises of an unwed middle eastern mother giving birth to a child in a manger. I guess as long as it's not the "Christ child" then it's ok to blow that little middle eastern baby to smithereens. Oh well, just more "collateral damage". "Joy to the World"? Yeah right as long as it's our little corner of the world and only for those who believe exactly as we do.

Yeah, life can be wonderful - in America and some other places in the world where we're not bombing the crap out of them. Think they're able to think that for extended periods of time in Iraq? How about the Sudan? I am lucky enough to be planning to enjoy my family and friends and appreciate the good things in my life but I cannot do so to the exclusion of what is being done to people in this world in my name and the name of Christianity.

Sorry if some of us are too "horribly pessimistic" for you, but I agree with folks here who are saying this tree thing is not worth fighting over. I believe in the message of Christmas - "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to All". I just wonder how anyone can pretend that it has any meaning in today's world.

[illflem]

16. Maybe since the economy is in the dumps

they should put up an aluminum one

[Bridget Burke]

17. The Christian Reconstructionists hate Christmas

It's one of the holidays they regard as Popish & Pagan. There were no Christmas trees in the Bible!

Your old "ultra liberal" persona ("The Nation") still shows up from time to time, doesn't it?

[UdoKier]

19. Of course there should be. It's as much a cultural as a religious icon.

My wife is a Buddhist, and I'm an atheist, and we celebrate Christmas and have a tree.

Why shouldn't we celebrate Jesus' birth? He was a great teacher of peace, love and compassion.

Would a tribute to Gandhi blur the lines of church and state? I believe he was a devout hindu teacher...


And I think a menorah and any other artifacts that other sects want there should be there too.

[Xithras]

20. The "Christmas Tree" isn't particularly religious

Even you wiccans should look up the history of the tree, because it really wasn't a central part of your lore either. There used to be an ancient tradition that stretched over ALL of Europe, and even into the Middle East and Egypt, that you brought some kind of evergreen plant into your home in the middle of the winter as a reminder that the green will come again, and that winter cannot kill all life. This practice was completely unconnected with the placing of boughs, holly, or other wiccan practices which WERE adopted by Christianity for Christmas celebrations. In some areas they used dates and palms, in others firs and pines. Sometimes they brought in the whole tree, and sometimes they just piled branches in a corner. The practice eventually died out in most of the world, and by the 1500's only survived in Scandinavia and Germany.

According to tradition, Martin Luther was walking home one evening when he was struck by the beauty of a few small pine trees shimmering in the moonlight with a little snow and ice hanging off of it. He went home and tried to recreate that shimmering look on his own tree with glass and candles...the first Christmas tree (though the presence of the tree in his home was German tradition at that point, and was not associated with Christmas).

The tradition of the holiday tree came to the US with the German immigrants, but the association of the tree specifically with Christmas was really a US invention from the last century. The tree has historically been a symbol of the triumph of life during the dark of winter, and the hope for greener days to come. No depression-era pseudo-religious attempts to make it a "Christian" symbol can overcome that.

Personally, given its symbolism, I'd say that a holiday tree on the White House lawn is more appropriate now than ever :)

[New Democrat]

21. Christmas tree isn't really a problem

it has very little to do with christianity. It is such a minor issue that I could care less either way. If it was a cross or the 10 commandments i would definatly see it differently though. There are bigger issues of Church and state problems such as churches being tax exempt yet still endorsing Bush, and kids being told to say Under God in the pledge every week at school.

[Toucano]

23. You left off "Don't Give a Crap, I've Got Bigger Fish to Fry" n/t

[leyton]

25. It's George Bush's house, he can put up lawn elves for all I care.

Yeah, yeah, the taxpayers pay for it, I know. But as long is Bush is the president, it's his house to do with as he wishes.

And as many people have pointed out, the Christmas tree is a pretty secular icon.

[bklyncowgirl]

29. Karl Rove in an elf suit? n/t

[secedeeconomically]

26. Only in a America

Only in an America does a tree represent Christmas and a rabbit represents Easter

[Cleita]

27. The tree predates Christianity.

I object to the fact that they kill a perfectly good majestic tree to erect it on the WH lawn. Why don't they grow a live one and decorate it every year?

Since we are a nation of many religions, I object to stars of Bethlehem, Angels, Creches or any other reference to religion though, but the tree could stand for national unity. Maybe they could decorate it with flags and other patriotic symbols along with secular balls, tinsel and lights.

[Piperay]

30. YES, sure...

Christmas trees are Pagan so what is the big deal. :shrug:

[Fleshdancer]

31. Personally, I embrace the Pagan symbols

Christmas trees, easter eggs...I love 'em! :)

[Canuckistanian]

43. Don't forget Maypoles!

I remember back in primary school we had a dance around a Maypole using colored streamers.

Little did we know that the maypole dance was an ancient fertility rite with obvious symbolism.

[mandyky]

32. Even non-religious people have trees usually

for Christmas. This is what ticks off the red staters when people make a stink over such a minor thing!

[datasuspect]

33. a burning cross

might be more appropriate given the current administration

[Behind the Aegis]

47. I AGREE WITH YOU!

I just posted in another thread the same thing! Considering the racist nature of this administration, it would be the most appropriate and HONEST thing they could do! They might as well burn a cross, only the right-wing doesn't think the mis-administration is racists, and that is because they (the right-wing) are racists too!

[liberal democrat]

35. Absolutely NOT!!

The White House is the home of the American President. To put on public property, a symbol from a religious holiday is un-American, unfair, and troubling to the millions of Americans who do not celebrate the holiday known as Christmas.

[Bridget Burke]

46. Cool, another "flaming liberal"

Most of us haven't swallowed the placebo.

[liberal democrat]

53. I am offended by that remark.

I am, by no means, an out-of-touch liberal. View some of my other posts. I am the voice of reason in threads in which I defend the Boy Scouts and fight anti-semitism in some of the posts.

As someone who does not celebrate Christmas, it saddens me that my religion is treated as less important because not as many people practice it.

In our country, you cannot make one group superior by celebrating their holidays while ignoring the beliefs of so many others.

If you are pro-choice on the abortion issue, you must be against the tree. Why? Because people who are pro-life attempt to take their narrow set of values and impose them on those who don't even believe in them. I believe that every person should openly follow his or her beliefs. To see my religion's symbol to be absent from the home of our nation's leader, makes me feel like my religion doesn't matter!!

[Spiffarino]

36. Christmas isn't Christian

It's been co-opted from the Roman Saturnalia and from other pagan solstice festivals and feasts. If the Xtians want to apply religiosity to it, let 'em. It's essentially a secular holiday.

There are some who object on a variety of religious or atheistic grounds, which is understandable. However, Xmas itself is not Xtian.

[NCN007]

42. And now its been co-opted

by Macys, Hallmark, and Disney

[Spiffarino]

49. They've always owned it

...in one way or another.

[Padraig18]

37. Oh, for fucks sake!

:eyes:

[high density]

38. Oh goodie, now next week I'll get mail warning me that

the liberals want to ban Christmas trees. :eyes:

I swear some people on this forum WANT us to look like fools.

[Canuckistanian]

41. Very Pagan - I like Xmas trees

The idea of using trees as centerpieces of the early winter feast days predates Christ, so trees cannot be considered strictly "christian".

[Bush was AWOL]

44. You serious?

:crazy:

I have no problem with this whatsoever, and I'm sure the majority of Americans feel this way.

[samtob]

45. I have never considered a christmas tree

as a symbol of religion, any religion.

If anything it represents what the holiday has become now, buy buy buy, than anything to do with the original meaning. IMO

[Behind the Aegis]

48. History not withstanding

The Christmas tree was originally a pagan symbol stolen by early Christians. However, today it is a SYMBOL of Christmas, a CHRISTIAN holiday! If you don't believe it is a symbol of Christmas, I challenge you to go to a local store, go with a cutout of a triangle-shaped tree with lights on it, and ask random people what it is and what it represents. I would wager that most, if not all, will say it is a Christmas tree and represents Christmas!

Just another way that they can shove their religion in the faces of the public! If the Shrubs want a 65ft tree on their front lawn at the Crawford ranch, go for it! The White House is a GOVERNMENT building!

[underseasurveyor]

52. The Tree is not the problem

Personally I don't look at it as "religious" in a soley christian light. Even an un-godly person like myself views the christmas tree as a symbol for hope and renewal, sharing and giving, love and peace.

[AntiCoup2K4]

54. The tree on the lawn doesn't concern me in the least.

The monkey in the Oval Office does :grr:

[foreigncorrespondent]

57. Absolutely not!

In a country that has religious diversity this shouldn't happen. And yes, I am knocking my own country as well, here.

I work in store security for a major electrical chain here in Australia. I'm not always stationed at the same store, one day I could be at a store that is just a little shop on a street, and other days I could be in a store in a major shopping mall. And everywhere I turn I am seeing Christmas trees everywhere.

Because I was brought up in a Christian faith I will have a Christmas tree in my home. But public places should not be allowed to do this. Not all religions believe in Christmas. But because of how commercialized Christmas has become, we see this everywhere.

We know that Christmas is on the way. We see the Christmas decorations for sale in the stores, do we have to see trees and religious symbols everywhere else we go?