Kerry criticizes Dean over "zero experience in international affairs"?

[shance]

I feel like I have to preface this every time, so here goes one more time. I LIKE Kerry, but I disagree with this comment, and if he is going to criticize Dean, then its also fair to comment on his criticism which I think is weak.

For the record, I think its important to say I dont recall Bill Clinton having any international experience in foreign affairs, and yet he was a trusted and highly respected leader worldwide.

I think we also need take a look at the current status of our foreign relations and what an absolute nightmare it is. And, other than the majority of responsibility on the Bush Administration, there has been virtually NO help from our Senate.

In fact, there has been too much enabling by our Senate by allowing this Administration to steamroll over the Constitution, workers rights, and anyone that stands in the way of corporate interests. I I am not solely placing the blame on the Democrats in Congress. There is of course the REPUBLICAN Congress**, the media and American citizens who many still remain pretty complacent. But thats another issue.

Our Democratic Congress is also responsible for failing to overrule policy that has been in whole destructive, anti-Democratic, and flat-out wrong.

I think an important question to ask:

How much experience does Kerry have in saying NO to the Bush Administration?

Seems to me foreign affairs experience would include having strong decision making skills, and not to mention having enough conviction and spine to not cave in on important policy. I have not seen Kerry exemplify those traits domestically, or abroad. Im sure he has been effective at times, but like it or not, not enough to stand out.

What I have seen Dean do with amazing ability is to utilize his gifts with people and with strong decision making skills, take risks, bring people together, to inspire and to communicate a vision that is fair and reasonable for all included. If those arent traits of a leader than what could people possibly want more from Dean? The ability to walk on water? Of course he is not perfect, and I disagree with him on some issues, but overall, to me, he is an incredible example of leadership, and I feel we would be incredibly fortunate to have him as our president.

Dean has worked hard to prove himself to the American public. In my opinion, no one else has come even close, save Kucinich, Braun and Sharpton, all of whom unfortunately have probably not been granted enough access as compared certainly to the top four. (As we know for a while, Dean was barely a blip on the screen). But Dean has earned everything he has achieved, because he has had to work for it. There have been no free rides for this individual, can the other Senators and Gephardt say the same? I would doubt it. This is solely my opinion, but I believe the others in Washington have an air of complacency in a way, and there is something that makes me feel that they dont seem to fully bring a air of appreciation for the job of the Presidency like Dean. I am not saying it is true, it honestly could be that I am biased. I am saying that is my perception.

I wanted to post these thoughts, because they are at the core of why I and probably many other Americans believe and support Dean.

[blm]

1. If it is fair for Dean to say he's the only one with executive experience

as governor, (he forgot about Graham) then why can't those with vast foreign policy experience point out that he has none?

Sorry, but, I don't think this country can afford to ignore Gary Hart's warnings yet again, and he warned that neither Dean or Lieberman could handle foreign policy. He knows both of them very well and better than any of us at DU.

btw...according to Dean's record of governance, he always sought the center ground on almost every issue, aligning most often with the Republicans there. What in his 11 year record says he will fight and lead for progressive Democratic values when he did not for 11 years as governor?

[JohnKleeb]

6. what about Kucinich

ok he was mayor but folks Vermont and Cleveland the size difference is closer than that of Vermont and my town.

[Bombtrack]

8. right, this thread slipped in the lie that Dean is not pro-corporate

or at least more regulatory than his opponents, which is untrue

he comes from the corporate class, he appeased corporate interests over populist interests in Vermont, and his platform is in no way among the more populist one's of the candidates.

This is an anti-war anti-kerry thread, not a weighty debunking of Kerry's Dean critism.

[shance]

20. Thanks for your reply**

It is certainly fair for Kerry to address the lack of experience, I just dont think any of the candidates can really fairly take that angle, and/or claim to have alot (or not) of experience, especially when it pertains to being president.

I actually like the fact that Kerry has a level head about him, and I would imagine that he would be really good in the foreign arena. Hes very cultured and I would imagine very wordly which I would think is very necessary. The part that worries me with Kerry is the ability to stand alone and say no when the going gets tough. I know he did stand tall and vote NO with the first Gulf War which shows tremendous bravery in my opinion, on a choice I believe to be courageous and RIGHT ON, but it seems like something has shifted in Kerry.

I have to say, I have been disappointed. Its as if all the passion and fire and even enthusiasm is not there. And I think thats necessary, well vital in leading a country. I dont know what it is, but I get a feeling of like resignation with Kerry or maybe it exhaustion. He seems tired. I dont know.

So Kerry concerns me because I believe there may be a tendency there to concede or to bend too easily, which I have to say is probably more of an issue domestically than abroad. I think Kerry would probably be very good in foreign issues, but I have to say I dont think hes got the tough stuff for the issues here on our soil. Whatever the case its going to be tough for the Democrat winning, and they are going to have to demand ORDER from the Democrats from day one. My opionion. Lack of unity is kicking our butt.

As far as my support for Dean I think we all at some point go on what we have observed and what we feel about the candidate. What I have observed and what I feel about Dean are hope for the country and inspiration that we can actually save this country. Pie in the sky? Maybe. But ultimately I hear what Dean says. It affects me in a positive way.

One of the things that impressed me the most was his choice to follow through on the Domestic partnership bill mainly because it was not anything that would ultimately benefit him from a monetary or even personal standpoint.

That was so intriguing to me, and this was before I even knew who he was. I know it was not ultimately his idea or his proposal, but considering that was not an issue that even applied to him, would benefit his life in some way, on the contray was certain to draw him into a
BARREL of controversy, he signed that bill and never looked back, because he believed it to be the right thing to do.

I know few, if any individuals who would have withstood that fire. To me that takes an exemplary person which I think he is. How many gay Domestic partnership bills have been shot down? Too many to even count. Vermont was the first state to implement such a policy. To me that says alot. To me, hes just about doing the right thing for EVERYONE, and not just a select few. And that is a big component for me. I know I could be disappointed at times, but I know I would be grateful much more than disappointed. Hes just an All American guy to me. He comes from privelege but it so doesnt define him, its just a part of his history and his amazing ability to define himself instead of allowing wealth to define him.

So yadadayada I think hes brave and I think hes fair and I believe he has what it takes to be a great President. I dont agree with him on the gun policy, but I understand where he comes from, what his experience in Vermont has been, and believe and hope he is open to change.

[blm]

23. Tell that to the gays and lesbians who he stood up for

when few in politics would. Unpopular

He stood up for felons who served their time so they could regain their right to vote. Unpopular

He stood up to the GOP and Dem powerstructures, the CIA and FBI when he investigated BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning. He was called a "conspiracy theory nut" by Cheney and the media and "too hot" by his own Dem leaders. Unpopular

He helped craft the Kyoto Accord, something not too popular with big corporations. Unpopular

Political coward...hardly.

[shance]

40. Whew! Wo now BLM.....

You're right. He has been strong on some issues. I would love to see that John Kerry show himself again,

I support Dean because that is where my loyalty is, but I watched Kerry tonight on the debates and thought he was terrific.

My question is, why has he been so soft lately? I dont get it. Thats where Im disappointed in Kerry. And he was highly derogatory about the people still angered about the 2000 election saying we need to stop crying in our tea cups unfortunately he lost me for good.

With that said, I like him, but he approaches some highly important events that are make or break to me, with a totally different perspective.

[Cocoa]

2. Good point about Clinton

I wonder if Dean will be making that same point, or if he has already.

[caledesi]

17. Dean HAS made this point about Clinton. eom

[MODemocrat]

28. Caledesi, will you share with me where Dean's photo comes from?

It's such a good photo, I'd love to have it on my messages too. The
only thing is, I don't understand how to transfer things like that.
The oldster that I am, it's lucky for me just to be able to send my messages.

Thanks, Marian

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. Kerry has no executive experience...

And personally, with the state of the United State's financial affairs, I'm more concerned about the next president having executive experience balancing a budget. Besides, serving in a war doesn't make you an expert, or even experienced on foreign policy. Also, Dean has been to over 50 countries and has lived abroad for a year before. He has foreign policy experience working with Canada, 12 years worth and more than that working with the Vietnamese government trying to locate and recover his brother's remains.

[JohnKleeb]

4. does lieutant governor count?

apologies for my spelling

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. If Mass Lt Gov is anything like Vermont's Lt. Gov

I would say no. Going from Lt. Gov to Gov is reasonable, but Lt. Gov to President is too much of a jump. I am not alone in thinking Governors make the best Presidents because of all political positions previously held...America elects Governors for President far, far more often than any other position. (not including incumbent presidents or VPs)

[Bombtrack]

14. Like Jimmy Carter?

He is considered by historians and journalists left right and center to be among the worst day-to-day administrators or cheif executives in history.

Eisenhower, JFK, and Reagan- a general, a senator, and an actor/governor - weren't elected because of there titles, they were elected because they were broadly appealing and likable.

The fact that govenors have been elected more than senators, has much less to do with science than chance, than the fact that northern and/ or percievedly left-wing(dovish,protax increase,very socially liberal)democrats get defeated in electoral landslides

[JohnKleeb]

16. Lt Governor to Senator is good

BTW my candiate has been both a legislator and an executive branch holder. Maybe Kerry prefered being Senator to Governor. Really is a matter of choice really. I know we elect more governors historically but I am in no mood to use history to determine who I support if we think like that Dean nor Kerry cant win.

[blm]

21. Did you miss Cleland's speech Tuesday?

Kerry served on Armed Forces committee, Intelligence committee, Small Business committee. He investigated the most massive bank fraud in history. He was one of the few Dems who promoted a balanced budget in the 80s and early 90s.

He has it all.

And in regard to Dennis K., he has more foreign policy experience than Dean because he has to vote on those issues and studies them before the vote.

[JohnKleeb]

25. Dennis K has both executive and legislative experience

in fact he has more experience, foriegn that is than Shrub. I know Shrub lives in the white house but technically DK has more and honestly is better on it.

[mlawson]

5. Dammit!! I wish they would all COOL IT on each other!!!!

Attacks like this will just be fodder for the KKKRove machine next year! Don't these *experienced* politicians ever learn?????

:argh:

[Cocoa]

7. that's not too bad

It's not like it's a cheap shot or a personal attack, it's an actual difference between the two of them.

[mlawson]

11. If Dean gets the nomination,

Rove will run footage of Kerry's remarks during the campaign. That is the problem. After a while, it sticks in the minds of voters.

[Cocoa]

18. Rove's going to do what he's going to do

Can't worry too much about that.

Anyway, Bush had no experience either, so it wouldn't be too effective an attack.

[Bombtrack]

10. Clinton was a foriegn policy expert since he was a teen

he majored in international relations at georgetown, where I believe he graduated near the top of his class. He was a Rhode's scholar at Oxford.

A longtime member of the Council on Foreign relations

Dean's numerous vacation trips wouldn't neutralize the foriegn relations gap that would be thrown at him. But it's just a small part of his perfect storm of defeatability.

[shance]

27. Clinton - Foreign policy expert since a teen?? A little stretch there?

Okay, that works for me. Clinton had SOME experience. Give me a break on the teen foreign policy prodigy bit though.

I bet many would agree that so-called policy experts say foreign relations is inherently much easier managed policy for a president than domestic policy, of course the exception would be in this Administration where there NEITHER area of policy is a strength.

With that said, it has been decades since we have had really productive, proactive, positive DOMESTIC policy. Kerry in essence may want to bring up Deans lack of foreign expertise, and that may be so, however, what is even more apparent is how much we need a STRONG DOMESTIC LEADER now and how Dean to me is a sure thing in the domestic arena.

As far as foreign relations goes, fine. I believe that is much more easily managed with smart 'Madelaine Albright' types that Im sure are incredibly capable and qualified for the job. Heres another thought: if by chance Dean wins, he might want to appoint someone like Kerry who would be probably very effective and skilled in Foreign relations, and vice versa, if Kerry becomes president then he would greatly benefit from Dean having a Cabinet position.

SO.....It just shows to go, it all works out in the end at DU.***


I have been on this computer too long today.

[IndianaGreen]

12. And what did we get out of Kerry's experience? Iraq War!

Experience at warmongering is experience we don't need!

[caledesi]

19. If Kerry has so much GD experience in foreight affairs, then

why, oh why did he vote for the attack on Iraq.

HD wasn't even there in congress and he knew it was going to be a HUGE mistake....like the French, like Germany, like Russia...

[tjdee]

13. No free rides for Dean?! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

His great (great?) grandfather was a founder of Smith Barney, he grew up on Park Avenue, for pete's sake his family belonged to a country club that excluded basically everyone--that immediately grants him as much of a "free ride" as John Kerry, and certainly much more than that when you compare him to Kucinich, Gephardt, and Edwards.

He has worked for everything he has...well, okay, but--
"There have been no free rides for this individual, can the other Senators and Gephardt say the same? I would doubt it."???

Come ON, LOL. That's hilarious.

[JohnKleeb]

15. tj although I dont mind candiates with wealthy backgrounds

I do find it laughable to hear that Dean grew up in humble surroundings. Whats Smith Barney gimme a pm? I dont care really but Dean and I am not being jerky nor do I care is the biggest WASP of the race, that wont hold me back from supporting him if hes the nominee but I am just saying he is.

[shance]

22. This post is not about Deans upbringing, its about his candidacy

Of course, he is not the only one to come from a wealthy background, but I do believe he is a self made man and has not defined himself at all through his families wealth, which makes him more impressive.

[tjdee]

36. Who has gotten a free ride in this campaign?

As far as I can tell, the only candidates even mentioned by the media are Dean and Lieberman, sometimes Kerry.

[shance]

24. There have been no free rides in this candidacy for Dean

If you read it correctly, you would understand thats of course what I meant.

[JohnKleeb]

26. I see now my mistake

on Kucinich I think if he got more publicity because he stands up a lot he would be pretty popular right now. Damn media.

[blm]

29. Except with the media...he used the magic formula

early this year - he dumped on the other Dem candidates and the Dem party. VOILA. The press LOVED HIM.

[David Zephyr]

30. Kerry's Staff Is Hurting Him By Encouraging This Petty Crap.

I have to ask: who in the hell is advising John Kerry? They are simply running one of the worst campaigns ever.

They had a great candidate. He had it all. Brains, talent, a personal history, and money. He can speak in complete sentences and is a darned good-looking guy, as well.

The question is not how Howard Dean has gone from nowhere to now dominating every single aspect of the Primary race, but is this: How in the hell did John Kerry hire such a shitty group of advisors and "managers" for his quest for the White House?

I've been around a long time and I gotta tell you, this is one of the sorriest episodes in American political campaign history.

John Kerry should fire every single one of his "top" staff.

Hell, he should hire Donna Brazille before Clark does.

Memo to John Kerry: You only have a short period left to make a difference. Fire your crappy staff...they are a bunch of parasites.

Memo to John Kerry supporters: Stop defending every fucking thing he does. He's losing and you look petty and ragged. Take your case directly to the man himself. Tell him to hire a new team. He's certainly better than the people around him...or is he?

[disgruntella]

31. ha ha ha ha ha

"Memo to John Kerry supporters: Stop defending every fucking thing he does."

Yeah, when does that memo circulate to certain Dean supporters? :eyes:

I don't defend everything John Kerry does, but I see no ATTACK in the simple statement that Dean does not have experience in international affairs. It's a basic way of differentiating himself from Dean based on the facts. And so Kerry scores a point. That is what candidates do. This is an election! Water is WET!!!!

What in the world do you expect Kerry's advisors to say? "Gee, John, that Dean fellow doesn't have any experience in foreign policy or international affairs... but you'd better not bring it up, it might put him on the spot or make him uncomfortable."

ROFLMAO

[David Zephyr]

32. Your Candidate Is Losing In Every Measurable Way.

Either it is John Kerry's fault or his campaign staff's fault. Which is it? I was hoping it might be those around him advising him, but perhaps it Kerry himself.

Why is he tanking? Ask yourself that. Don't get pissed at me. What's WRONG with his campaign?

[disgruntella]

35. i'm not mad at you

I'm mirthful.

I think it's too early to declare any losers in this campaign. If I don't believe Kerry is "losing in every measurable way," why should I ask myself "what's WRONG with his campaign?" It's your opinion that something is wrong, not mine.

[blm]

38. He's a long distance man...a long distance biker...

Pacing. His campaign style for real competitive races is always to let the other guy gather steam.

[shance]

33. I should have titled this thread differently.

I unintentionally started some flames that I wish I hadnt.

I have to say I watched the debates and I am incredibly inspired by all our candidates. Even though there are differences in the party (of course there will be) I hope these debates can really unify and inspire all of us, including the candidates. They all have something to offer.

They were all great. Yeah, Im disappointed a little by Lieberman, but really only for the fact that I feel he doesnt have a realistic picture of Iraq and some policies. But other than him taking a pointless shot at Dean which didnt work, he seems like a good guy who is like all of us a product of his own experiences. I do know that I would choose to vote for him because ultimately anyone is better than what we are experiencing now.

What is cool is that they are having these debates. They are energizing. Its brings more force and energy into our party at large. Hopefully it is giving back to them a connection with Americans that is so desperately needed. We need all of those individuals to keep working in the Democratic party long after this election.

I wish the issue of computerized voting will be addressed at some point. I still cant see why most of our candidates would choose to ignore it.

[IndianaGreen]

34. Kerry does not score any points on foreign experience

His prowar vote is a permanent stain from which he cannot hide, nor run from. His persistence in trying to convince people of his incredulous claim that a vote for the Iraq resolution was not a vote for war, makes him look like one of Bush's spin doctors.

I agree with what a previous poster said earlier. Kerry should get rid of all those DLC advisors he has, and should do what Gore was doing last year and say what he means, and mean what he says.

[hedda_foil]

41. You think Dean's supporters don't criticize him?

Read the comments in the blog some time. The bloggers were far harder on Dean's debate appearance tonight, for instance than anything you've seen here. Not only do they comment extensively on EVERYTHING, they make lots of good suggestions and the campaign staff listens and takes action and acknowledges the bloggers' ideas. This campaign takes feedback and runs with it. That's part of what makes the whole Dean effort so amazingly effective. When a mistake is made by Dean or someone in the campaign, the bloggers tell them ... though most of the time the Gov and his amazing staff know it already. They don't try to defend the indefensible. They LEARN from their mistakes and they correct them immediately.

[polpilot]

39. I've been posting he should fire ALL of them. WORST campaign ever.

They were running, until last week, as if Dean didn't exist and their strategy seems to have developed about 2 years ago.

Dean '04

[paulk]

37. it's a legitimate criticism

and if Dean can't handle it in the primaries -

Then he'll lose in the general election.

Period.