Canadians (or others, I guess) - what do you make of this?

[Doctor_J]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1101899819864&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

Think Nora's on the up-and-up, or is she a Bushwhore making up that stuff about how she moved to get away from him.

I am looking for work in Canada, and if I get it I don't see myself coming back as long as the BFEE are in charge.

[fudge stripe cookays]

1. WTF is her problem?

Most of my Canadian friends know that I don't represent all Americans. We discuss politics rationally, and all of know each of our countries have problems.

This woman is delusional in this statement:
"Ultimately, Canadian anti-Americanism says more about Canada than it does about America. Because some 80 per cent of this country's trade is with the U.S., the reality is that Canadians need Americans to sustain their economy and thus the quality of life they value. Such dependence breeds resentment."

I call bullshit. Yes, we have a very interdependent relationship, but Canada's anti-Americanism is no different from that in France or Germany or anywhere else. They can't stand us because our government is bullying. It has been for years.

Why does everyone insist that Canadians resent us for what we have? Most of the Canadians I know love their country, and have real problems with our crime, drugs, and some of our other problems. I don't see them moping to become American. This lie has gotten so much airplay it's become accepted as fact. And it's patent crap.

For a bluestocking bluestater, she needs to come back here if she misses it so badly. We're planning our move up, and I'll be glad to get out of the hellhole my country has become. She can come live in Texas for awhile to better understand the attitude she was getting while she was up. Living in a blue state, she never saw enough of the hostility that other countries receive from our toothless, unwashed fellow citizens.

FSC

[Phx_Dem]

2. You are correct...

....

On a related question, only one in seven Canadians agree with a statement that characterized them as anti-American. An overwhelming majority -- 84 per cent -- disagree.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20041130.BUSHPOLL30/TPStory

[leesa]

3. Seeing as how we are the largest debtor nation on the planet,

it's hard to imagine anyone being all that dependent on our bad debt.

We are so arrogant, we think we are a superpower when we are anything but.

[Minstrel Boy]

4. Someone forgot to welcome her to the rest of the world.

This is absolute bullshit:

"Any country that defines itself through a negative ("Canada: We're not the United States") is doomed to an endless and cycle of hand-wringing and angst."

But it's what she sees because she is interpreting everything through her ex-pat prism. She's carrying around an America-sized chip on her shoulder.

Canada defines itself by its social policy. The figure voted just a few days ago as the "Greatest Canadian" was the father of our public health system.

The negative she sees is simply the negative example we have before us of the trainwreck of America. So naturally the first gay couple to wed in Ontario are glad they don't live in the US.

Not in my lifetime have Canadians known so clearly our distinctiveness in North America. Clearly that's got up this woman's nose. She says she came chiefly for the work. It strikes me she perhaps she didn't process the fact that she was coming to different country. And she doesn't appreciate the fact that we're more different than she realized.

And I would say to her, any country that defines itself by its military is doomed, period.

[martinolich]

5. ..I'm afraid Nora is indeed on the up and up....

..a great deal of what she says about the "anti-americanism" in Canada is just confirmation of what my boyfriend, who travels frequently to Canada on business, and even more thorougly, by Canadian journalist Margaret Wente who appeared on C-Span yesterday to talk about Canada and it's attitudes towards American and its people.

Wente, herself is American born and American educated. She moved to Toronto where she writes for one of their leading newspapers (forgot name). She said outfront that about "one-third of Canadians have deeply anti-American attitudes"....She also confirmed, almost word for word, what Nora said about the lack of self-censorship Canadians enjoy while insulting Americans. She called it almost "a license to criticize" Americans while maintaining a "political correctness" about other nations and ethnicities. She also mentioned the economic dependence of Canada on America and mirrored Nora's remarks by saying that, despite the disdain, obviously, "Canadians are obsessed with America"
..In addition to the writer's own opinions, a "caller" (it was a "call-in" show)..A young woman, a college student called in to tell us all (Americans) how arrogant and "bullying" she found many of us...She even went so far as to deliver a message to "all of you thinking of moving to Canada...Don't!...We don't want you!!...Even those of you who didn't vote for Bush!...you're still bullies! (sic)...

My friend and I have discussed moving there, and even though he's been telling me some of this, quoting those expats he knows I didn't take it too seriously, but after watching the show..and seeing it confirmed again here, .I've definitely decided to THINK HARD about leaving this place...Who wants to be treated like this?

[Minstrel Boy]

9. "Canadian journalist Margaret Wente"?!? Let me tell you about her.

She's a right-wing corporatist shill for Bush, apologist for the occupation of Iraq. Self-loathing Canadian, you could say.

Tuesday night, author and journalist Linda McQuaig told an interesting story at the vigil outside the US consulate, that also says something about the US media.

She said she'd been called by a CSPAN producer and asked to appear tomorrow to discuss Canada-US relations. She said sure. Then the producer asked McQuaig about her thoughts on the Iraq war. She said it isn't about WMD or "liberation": it's about oil. (McQaig's recently written a book titled It's the Crude, Dude.) The producer then said, "Okay, but are you for it, or against it?"

Eh? What a disturbing question to ask after McQuaig had made it clear that she thought the rationale for war bogus.

Anyway, McQuaig got a call back shortly after, and was told she wasn't needed after all; they were going to use Wente instead.

[Doctor_J]

12. Yeah, I have heard of Wente

She's a journalist in much the same way that Robert Novak is. Interesting story about Linda. Michael Parenti has written copiously about bring uninvited to give speeches, articles, and commentary when he refused to tailor his offerings to please the wingers. Sounds like Ms. McQuiag that not being a Bush-lover can curtail one's access to the media.

[Ekova]

6. She's a little out there.

First off, nobody that I'm aware of thought Americans got what they deserved on 9/11. Perhaps the absence of shock that it would happen, considering various foreign policies, but anyone that said you deserved it would be told to think that position over after they'd gone to go f*ck themselves.

Second, the notion that Canada is the sole beneficiary of our import/export deal with the U.S. is sky high rhetoric. We don't send 80% of our exports to the States because the U.S. government is being altruistic. It's mutually beneficial for the most part. If it wasn't, it simply wouldn't be happening.

We Canadians aren't anti-American. We'll always be a tad freaky about the whole hockey thing, but people should notice that when the anti-American angle gets presented it is usually (inevitably?) within the confines of an advertising campaign. Molson Canadian has been marketing the "we're not American" angle for years while trying to attach our national identity to a beer. Adverts try to capitalise on emphasising that "we aren't the people that everyone dislikes right now.....now purchase this car".

[dreamcollector]

7. My Mother Was American

She went to university (college) in Canada and married a Canadian. Sometimes she found Canadians hard to live with --- Cuban crisis, Vietnam. I am sure it must be awful now to be an American anywhere & that includes being American in America. It's just a terrible terrible time to be American. I would be deeply ashamed to be American right now as well as terrified. I am appalled at the murderous activities in Iraq right now. Get the hell out of there and leave them their oil! Fuddle-duddle as one of our former PMs said, that's a totally immoral war and anybody who supports it is complicit. I have just read Manuel Valenzuela's article in Scoop and am particularly riled. I find it hard to feel for that lady. Coming home won't improve her state of mind. Go to <www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0412/S00026.htm>. I'd blush to be American right now. But cheer upo, better days are ahead when you dump Bush. I can remember an ecstatic welcome for JFK and Jackie and Clinton was well received.

[Maple]

8. We used to have a lot

of English people immigrating here to Canada. They often entered conversations by saying 'well in England, this is how we do it'. Or 'the colonies have a lot to learn from Mother England it seems'

After awhile, we started replying, 'this isn't England'.

After years of this treatment, we started suggesting they return to England if they were that keen on it, and found our ways inferior or colonial.

Some took what was called the '$5000.00 cure' and went back for a visit. When they returned to Canada, they kept quiet after that.

Point is, if you're going to immigrate, do so. And stop telling everyone how wonderful your homeland is. If it was that wonderful, you wouldn't have left in the first place, no matter what nostalgia remains.

[FlatJack]

10. I'm a Canadian, former US resident

My wife is American, I'll ask her tonight how she feels about this article.

I think the writer has taken every element of Canadians being bad hosts and distilled it into one highly concentrated editorial. Sure, it's likely you'll see much of this, there are idiots everywhere.

Someone saying America "deserved" 9/11 is harsh, nobody I know would say that.

There is a certain amount of that "anti-Americanism" here, but any sensible Canadian will tell you it's policy, not the people. If your driving in Canada in your American license plated car and someone in Canada cuts you off and yells out the window "Yankee Go Back Home!". Is that really Anti-Americanism? No, it's just a moron giving his mating call.

Perceived anti-Americanism in hockey is a rivalry Americans earned by beating Canada in the '96 World Cup. Canadians were terrified that they weren't dominant in hockey anymore. Getting beat by a faceless European nation is one thing, but by the Americans was personal. Of course it's all in fun. Anybody who takes it any further than that is an idiot. I tell all my friends here that in international tournaments team Canada is my favorite, followed close by Team USA. Many Canadians say they prefer Sweden over USA or any team over USA. I think that's because they're used to and bored of USA dominating international sports. However most Canadians who know hockey understand that the American Collegiate hockey system and the CHL are arm in arm, together they're what nurtures the distinctive North American hockey style. CHL teams (Canadian Hockey League, Junior hockey) can only have one European per team, but infinite Americans. This is because of a pact with the US Collegiate system where American Universities can give scholarships to Canadians and many play in American colleges (my brother played for UofM). Clearly the success of team USA in hockey is success for North American hockey, every player on any Team USA learned the game from Canadians. The "American style" hockey is basically Canadian style hockey and when Canadians "hate" team USA hockey, it's just more self-loathing.

There is an element of self-loathing in the anti-Americanism here. The whole idea of Canadians measuring themselves by American standards has a LOT of truth to it that most Canadian's aren't prepared to admit. I've often found myself asking why USA is the template for your measure? It's what you see in the media, even with Canadian cable TV we get American shows and American news here.

It's really not that bad here, most of us Canadians love Americans. I can also say that believe it or not there is a certain feeling in the northern parts of Ontario of camaraderie to the American South. There's a romanticism in regards to places like the Mississippi river, New Orleans, the lands of blues, Creole and Cajuns and love of that whole culture. It's anything but Anti-American. Americans visiting towns and cities north of Toronto would get a lot of questions and probably find friendly conversation. If Canadians sometimes sound anti-American often I find they're mistakenly using the term "Americans" when they mean "American government policy".

[MidEastMan]

11. Canada RocKz and They Have Real Democracy

[Lisa]

13. most of the Canadian establishment started after 1776

Canada's version of the Mayflower (wealthy aristocratic upper-crust) was the United Empire Loyalists -- people who moved up here after the War of Independence. They settled in the Maritimes, Quebec (which had been pretty much overwhelmingly French until then), and Ontario (a.k.a. "Upper Canada"). There had been a lot of strife created by that war -- really more like a civil war, really -- Jimmy Carter discusses it in his recent novel, and the Mel Gibson movie "The Patriot", which made up a lot of stuff, did have some of the sentiments down.

It's ironic that this "ruling class" is also the one that people like Margaret Wente and Jeffrey Simpson admire so much (while complaining about how anti-American the proles are!).

So basically, one of our founding population groups was opposed to the American republic. Add to that the War of 1812 a few years after (with the burning of the White House), and a couple of conflicts later in the 1800s -- and I think it's safe to say that Canada has a long tradition of seeing itself in opposition to the States. If not in an active, adversarial, "whatever they like we're opposed to" fashion.

I agree with some of what Nora and Margaret and various others have noted. There wouldn't be a Canada, as we know it, if America had never existed. And because of what geographers call a core-periphery relationship (the US is stronger, richer, and more developed -- we still are subordinate in terms of exporting commodities rather than finished goods, except for stuff made by US branch plants here) -- there IS a certain degree of resentment. American companies are profiting from our resources and our labour (they wouldn't be trading with us if they didn't!).

It's natural for people to gripe. It happens in the States too -- regions which aren't as well off complain about richer areas. Rural areas mutter about the big powerful cities. People make fun of California or New York. Everybody gripes about Washington, D.C. (including Bush, who works there).

And Canada has its share of people who would rather whine about stereotypes than thinking about what they might be doing wrong themselves, or considering that there are plenty of Americans who aren't "ugly".

BUT -- in mainstream Canada, vicious anti-Americanism is rare. Yes, there are people who like making snide comments about the presumed ignorance and arrogance of Americans, but because there's been a pretty much continuous exchange of people since our countries were founded, the vast majority of Canadians have relatives, friends, and business contents in the States. (Because of our settlement pattern, most of us live a few hours' drive from the border, so it's rare to meet an adult Canadian who's never been to the US.) And if you demand that they clarify their comments, they pretty much have to admit that they're wrong.

Small consolation that many of the Canadians who are slagging Americans also have nasty things to say about other Canadians (those stupid "Newfie jokes", or "frogs", or Alberta rednecks, or Ontario yuppies ...)

They're just those kinds of people. Every country has them. I wish it weren't true, but it is. Sorry, eh?

The CBC and other news media up here are showing us that there are plenty of Americans who are NOT like Bush and his ilk -- and in particular, the ones who are living among us tend to share many of our beliefs. So they're absolutely the wrong ones to be slamming! People who insist on buttonholing US expatriates are simply not paying attention.

To Americans who are thinking of moving up here but are worried that they will be condemned -- please, many of us are sympathetic and would welcome you.

I've heard from Canadians living in the States that they get hassled too sometimes -- I also remember one guy I met while visiting friends in Oakland, who kept teasing me about my accent (until other Americans told him to shut up).

p.s. My officemate, a US expatriate who's reading this message, wantes to add that "it's really not that bad" up here compared to some of the arguments she's had over politics with her neighbors in the US lately.

[FlatJack]

14. I have to agree with lisa

Right on, eh.

[Kellanved]

15. She does not seem to understand a thing

Most glaring is her assumtion about the Gold Medal's importance. In sports there are rivalies; it is a simple fact of life. If she isn't capable to see it at what it is, I have to wonder whatever or not she wanted to see anything but Anti-Americanism to start with.

[distantearlywarning]

16. The stuff she's been exposed to is pretty harsh, but...

I live in America, and I kind of feel the same way about most of my fellow citizens. Ever taken a trip to Wal-Mart? Every Wal-Mart on the planet is chock full of fat, noisy, ill-bred, ignorant sheeple with a *huge* sense of entitlement. I think some anti-american sentiment is justified. We are a nation of loud, rude, resource guzzling idiots. Foreigners who have lots of contact with Americans are speaking some truth when they malign us in these ways.

I personally feel less and less of an emotional tie with my country and the people in it every day. If it weren't for the fact that I'm in the middle of a graduate degree program, I would be making plans to immigrate somewhere more civilized and educated right now.

[cavebear]

17. Not my experience

I've been in Vancouver 10 years and have never encountered anything like what she describes.
I've heard a lot of uncalled for anti-asian expression but not anti-american.
Maybe it's different in Toronto.