I had a great run-in with a recruiter

[deadmessengers]

I had a run-in with a military recruiter a little while ago. While going into Target to get some of my Yule gift buying out of the way, I was hit up by a guy pimping the Army. The conversation went something like this:

RecruiterDrone: “Hey, have you ever thought about a career with the Army?”

I’m not sure why he was recruiting me – I’m 33 years old, which is pretty far outside his target demographic. The only thing I can think of is that I looked exceptionally youthful today. I suppose I can take that as a compliment. Normally though, at this point, I just would have given the guy the finger and walked away. But, I was in an uncharacteristically nice mood, so I decided to be civil to the guy.

Me: “Sure, I thought about it, but I decided against it” (It's true, I did think about it – in 1988)

RecruiterDrone: “It’s not too late to serve your country, you know.”

Now, this is one of the biggest lies that recruiters tell: they keep pushing this idea that military service is the ONLY way to serve your country. The fact is, though, that’s a lie, and this recruiter was about to find out just how big of a lie that is.

Me, with my good mood shattered and blood pressure rising: “I served my country. I just didn’t see the need to join the military to do it.”

The drone looked very confused at this point. It was obvious that he’d never been challenged on his little lie before. It was equally obvious that the Army neglected to tell him what to think here, so he was on his own, rhetorically speaking. After a while, he responded: “What, do you mean the Peace Corps or something?” At the mention of the Peace Corps, his tone dripped with contempt.

Me: “No. I served my country by being a teacher in the poorest neighborhood in America.” I didn’t give him any details, but the fact is that for 3 years, I served my country by volunteering to teach computer literacy classes in an afterschool program in the South Bronx. Later, I also taught the same classes to adults as part of a job-training program.

RD: “You call that serving your country?”

At this point, I’d had just about all I was going to take. I thought about it for a second, and told him – “Look, you can’t sign a kid up unless he finishes high school. So, for every kid you get to join, you can thank every teacher he's ever had for it.” Then, I leaned over a bit, got right in his face, and said:

“You’re welcome.”

I walked away, and didn’t look back to see his reaction.

[Occulus]

1. For all that I gripe about my job

and the people who run it... postal workers serve their country every day in a very tangible and vital way.

Ooooh, LET one of the military recruiters say something like that to me.

[July]

27. Yep, and you are under-appreciated.

What people don't know about postal workers could fill several volumes.

[Mojambo]

2. Ten-HUT!

You Rule, Sir.

[dkofos]

3. Makes me want to go out and fuck with recruiters.

This could be a new DU sport.

:evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[deadmessengers]

11. Y'know, you might have a point there.

A week or so ago, Lycos came out with a screensaver that was designed to bankrupt spammers by sending huge amounts of traffic to their web servers, thereby costing them revenue and driving up their bandwidth costs.

That got me thinking, if we could do the same thing to recruiters - figure out a way to flood the recruiterdrones with nonexistant leads, and making them spin their wheels winnowing the few real leads out of the mountain. It probably wouldn't make a dent in their numbers, but it would make them have to work harder to get the kids to sign.

[VivaKerry]

4. Rock on!!!!! n/t

[sariku]

5. That's a great response

And you probably do look younger than your age. I cringe to think what will happen the first time my 17 year old looking but in reality 31 year old canadian husband is approached by a recruiter. My husband gets carded buying cigarettes.

[Occulus]

31. if it wasn't for my beard I'd look about 18 or so

I get carded for smokes and beer ALL the time, everywhere I go. At first it was annoying, but now that I'm getting older, I'm finding I really appreciate being thought to be younger than I am...

[NewHampshireDem]

6. Good for you!

I think about teaching the same way--and not just teaching. There are lots of Americans who proudly serve their country without joining the military. Anyone who does something to promote the common good serves their country.

[Sparkly]

7. Awesome!!

:thumbsup:

(By the way, I wonder if there were recruiters outside the Lord & Taylor or the Saks, as well...?)

[deadmessengers]

10. Interesting point

You know, you're probably right. Recruiters troll the parking lots of places like WalMart and Target looking for fresh meat for the grinder, but I'm sure we'll never see hide nor hair of them in the "Upmarket" malls...

On the other hand, all this took place in Paulding Co., GA. Around here, Target is as upmarket as it gets. :D

[firebee]

8. Why can't I have that confrontation?

In 1995 I actually tried to enlist in the Army. I took my ASVAB and scored an 86. I'd been in boxing for about 4 or 5 years prior to enlisting, so I was physically in superior shape. I'm talking about running 15 miles a day, doing 500 push ups a day and doing 800 sit ups a day along with the typical workout of sparring, hitting the heavy bag, double end bag and speed bag. I had an interesting choice for MO's, such as... counter terrorism, counter intelligence, intelligence communications, nuclear physics, combat engineer, demolitions, recon and military police. I swear... Nuclear physics was the safest MO they gave me. Everything else was combat related.

Anyhow, my hearing was bad from... get this... shooting guns. I was disqualified from enlisting because I couldn't hear the tone of an incoming missile, which came from shooting guns when I was a kid. So, I couldn't get in the military, but I suspect they'd take me now. Oh well.. too late. Now I'm "serving my country" as a wildland firefighter. Where's the military been when I was hotlining and risking getting burned over???? That's right... bringing up the rear and mopping up behind us. Sorry Mr. Recruiter, I'm risking my life to serve my country and I don't have to kill people in the process. I'm not your monkey today.

[Runcible Spoon]

33. thank you for serving your country!

firefighters kick ass.

[tanyev]

9. I served my country

by voting for John Kerry.

[deadmessengers]

12. Word. n/t

[Javaman]

13. good post

[LisaL]

14. Tell him there two very nice young ladies he should

recruit-Barbara and Jenna. Tell him you are waiting for them to enlist before making your decision.
:silly:

[TreasonousBastard]

15. I expect to have a few interesting run-ins...

being a draft counselor and GI Rights Hotline volunteer.

Haven't actually had a direct run-in with one yet, but I do advise kids about the realities of joining the military, and how to legally get out of it once they realize it's not such a hot idea after all. Having the unusual qualification of being both a Quaker and a veteran, I would hope my advice has some weight.

Recruiters have quotas, and they readily admit that they will lie, cheat, and maybe even steal to meet the quotas. While you're not prime meat, you could still sign up at your age. You could even be drafted in your 30's under certain circumstances.

[deadmessengers]

21. Just out of curiosity

How did you, as a Quaker, end up being a veteran? I was always under the impression that military service was considered by Quakers to be sinful.

In any case, this just reinforces my belief that you meet people with some pretty interesting stories hanging out here.

[oneighty]

26. Quakers

will willingly serve in a non-combat position such as Hospital Corpsmen with the fleet Marines. Now who in their right mind would volunteer for that job?

180

[TreasonousBastard]

34. Not sinful...

we don't talk much of "sin" as it's commonly understood. That's a theological concept that we are free to discuss, but generally leave it alone as one of life's mysteries.

What we do talk about a lot is what is right or wrong, and we do have strict moral and ethical leadings. Not "codes" or rules, but we feel that our spiritual quests not only lead us toward a relationship with God, but also lead toward relationships with others and with the planet, and probably the rest of the universe. As we grow spiritually, the more we are lead toward peace, reconciliation, and nonviolence. This is not uncommon in other Christian sects or other religions, but we make it central to ours.

Not all Quakers have accepted the Peace Testimony, and many do believe in Just War. Throughout history, Quakers have been tested by the American Revolution, the Civil War, WWII, and other possibly just causes that involved violence. We have also been tested in the English civil wars, and Indian attacks in early America. To say nothing of your normal police work, and dealing with some pretty dangerous people. Some Quakers caved in, or balanced the "lesser evil" questions, while others faced prison, death and banishment for their beliefs.

But, usually, like the Mennonites, we simply do not do war. We don't join police forces because of the potential for violence. We don't become miiitary chaplains because a miltary chaplain's job is to explain to the troops why thay should go back to the battle. We prefer not to be military medics because the job of a military medic is primarily to patch up the wounded so thay can go back and fight some more.

We are not even all that big on self-defense, and our thoughts and journals about that can be really interesting.

Myself, the story is not all that complicated or interesting. I was drafted back in the 60's and didn't become a Quaker until long after that. I didn't go to Viet Nam, but met plenty of battered Viet Nam vets, and a couple of years in uniform reinforced whatever pacifist ideas I had before I went in. What I have seen in the years after that only reinforced them even more until I finally joined a Quaker meeting.

[infusionman]

37. Any Tips

On how I can keep my boys out of a draft?

[TreasonousBastard]

41. A few,,,

but there is no evidence that a draft will actually be coming any time soon. Politically, it's a real hot button, and requires Congress to sign off on actuating the draft.

But, that's just one vote in Congress, and who knows what will happen in the next few years.

http://www.nisbco.org/ has most of the dope on the draft, and to make it simple until it becomes a real threat:

1. The kids MUST register! The Solomon Amendments make it really tough on anyone who doesn't. No possibility of Federal jobs, student loans, or access to many other state and federal programs. This is only for men, of course, and women have no obligations at all under the law.

2. There are forms to amend one's draft status, but that gets too complicated to put in one posting.

3. Conscientious objection is one of the best known ways to get out, but isn't easy. It means a lot of time being reviewed by the draft board. Asking for conscientious objector status is easy and should be done, but a real case for it has to be made. They will want statements from a lot of people backing this up.

4. The most common way people get out is being 4F-- medically or psychologically unfit. Draft physicals don't catch, or look for, most of the things that can keep you out, so medical records of ANY problem should be kept. There are hundreds of little things that can make you unfit, and they are all in the regulations, so if proven keep you out.

5. There are lots of obscure classifications, like if someone in the immediate family was killed in combat. They should be somewhere on the CCW site.

6. If nothing else works, there is always divinity school.

(I'm thinking of doing regular postings on draft doings.)

[jmm]

16. Wow, that's much better than my standard

not under this administration response :toast:

[Imajika]

17. And some wonder why the left gets tagged...

..as anti-military - which translates to anti-American in most US citizens mind.

"Normally though, at this point, I just would have given the guy the finger and walked away."

Why would you give him the finger? Wouldn't a polite no thank you have sufficed?

Ya know, we do have to have a military. Every country has one to some degree or another.

"The drone looked very confused at this point."

The drone? Real nice. So long as so many on the left talk and act is if our own nations military and service people are the enemy, we will keep taking steps backward as more and more Americans will want nothing whatsover to do with people who talk about and treat US military personnel in this manner.

Being nasty to an American serviceperson is nothing to be proud of in my book. And the approval of your actions on this thread is pathetic in my opinion.

Imajika

[RetroLounge]

18. So who asked you?

RL

[Imajika]

19. This being a public message forum..

..I sometimes respond to threads. I've been here since 2001 and I'm pretty sure that's how online discussion boards work. It's called joining the conversation and offering an opinion whether it's popular or not. Perhaps you've heard of it? Normally people don't ask for approval first to post comments. Did you think they should? Perhaps it should be a new rule?

I take it you didn't like my comments then? Your response to my post being so mature and all.

Maybe you don't want to hear that it is just plain rude to disrespect and mistreat American servicepeople? Perhaps you don't want to accept that when the left is associated with this kind of behavior we are more likely to lose elections and public support?

Would you like the forum membership to agree with you all the time? To hell with dissenting opinion right, it's so annoying and all...

Imajika

[deadmessengers]

20. Not anti-military at all.

I'm only against the overly aggressive and deceptive salespitch that recruiters are trained to deliver to kids who aren't old enough to know how to filter out the BS.

Wouldn't a polite no thank you have sufficed?

No, it wouldn't, because these guys are trained NOT to take no for an answer. I've learned that if you're nasty from the outset, they'll be a lot quicker to get the message.

The drone? Real nice.

I don't think it's unfair to call them drones, as long as the military trains them to shut up, don't think, and just follow orders. They might as well be robots.

Ya know, we do have to have a military. Every country has one to some degree or another.

Yes, I agree. And I believe that our military should be staffed by people who are aware at the outset of what they're getting themselves into. As long as recruiters are allowed to lie to get kids to sign on, that will not be the case.

Keep in mind who what we're talking about here. Military recruiters are trained to lie so as to get kids to sign their lives away. Why the hell should I be kind to these people? I'll reserve my kindness for their duped victims, thank you very much.

And the approval of your actions on this thread is pathetic in my opinion.

Well, that's your right to disapprove, and to dissent from the prevailing opinion on this thread. On the other hand, the Bush cabal are using the mantra of "support the troops" to marginalize those who express dissenting opinions - and you appear to be right on board with that.

Sucks to be on the other side, doesn't it?

[July]

28. Couldn't agree more.

And I have a serious problem with the idea that we're "disrespecting service people" if we don't buy the party line. IMO, we're the only ones who care about service people as actual individuals rather than as part of the pre-emptive war juggernaut.

I like your point of view.

[feistydem]

29. Why are service people above being disrespected?

I was friends with a Navy recruiter years ago and he used to complain all of the time about the lies he was expected to tell to recruit young men (mostly) --and this was during the Cold War.

"Promise them anything," he used to say, "and once you have their names on the dotted lines all they can do is whine when they don't get the post they'd requested."

What's respectable about that?

It's not like any other job being offered under false pretenses. This job could cost you your life and you can't quit as soon as you learn you've been 'had.'

I was also friends with a Navy Corpsman who had been promised for 7 years that he would finally get posted at a base where he could finish his medical training (as promised). Every time he re-enlisted that promise was renewed and broken.

Sure things don't always work out as planned, but the military is well known for breaking promises and lying to get young people to enlist or re-enlist.

But this behavior deserves one's respect?

No one acting in a shameful manner deserves respect --even if they wear a uniform --perhaps even especially if they wear a uniform.

[TreasonousBastard]

35. My attitude is that...

being nasty to ANYONE is nothing to be proud of.

However, since my attitude is also that war is the greatest obscenity, those who promote it and its mechanisms get no hearing from me.

I have, on occasion, been quite nasty to salespeople who have tried to sell crap to me and others. I see military recruiters as every bit the slime that boiler room telemarketers are. Or the sleazeball who sold me that Audi that fell apart a week later.

I know perfectly well that there are times that call for some to do the dirty work, but a uniform by itself does not command respect.

[itzamirakul]

22. Excellent response!

:)

[Greylyn58]

23. Unfortunately One Of These

recruiters got my youngest nephew (21 years) before Thanksgiving. He's has joined the Marines. He is suppose to report for boot camp at Parris Island Dec 27. I cried when I found out as did my mom.

Now just so you know, I have nothing against the military. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't even give it a second thought. My dad served in the Marines for 30 years - through Korea and Vietnam. My brother, his father, also served in the Marines. Now he's a firefighter/EMT. My nephew wants to be a chef, but doesn't have the money for college, so he's hoping after he's served he can get GI help in that area.

This recruiter was trolling at a Friday night football game and my nephew and a friend just happened to be attending. I thought that was awful and this guy snagged both of them. The other boy won't be joining until June as he's still in school and won't be 18 till then.

My nephew told this guy he wanted to do office work and was told he could after basic training - I personally have my doubts on that score, but we'll see. I asked my brother how he could let Stephen sign up. He's a Kerry supporter and hates what is happening to the country, especially in Iraq. He said he's sure a draft is coming and thought this way at least Stephen would get to do what he wants.

His other son is in college studying to be a History teacher and he's not sure what he'll do about him. He would never make it in the service if he's drafted. He's just not soldier material if that makes any sense.

I know these guys have a job to do, but right now. I can't stand any of them.

[OhioChick]

24. Good for you....

and nice explanation farther down the thread.

[July]

25. I like your style. nt

[Gyre]

30. You rock!!!

Thanks for sharing that little gem. :toast:

Gyre

[trogdor]

32. You rock!

:yourock:

The recruiter was an asshole. Not only that, he isn't much of a salesman. They do teach salesmanship in recruiter school, don't they? Rule numero uno: You do not, under any circumstances, argue, browbeat, show disrespect to, or otherwise insult your mark customer. Period. Non-negotiable. You should forward the text of your post to the commander of you local recruiting station, and ask for his feedback. If I were this jackass's company commander, I would definitely not be impressed with this sort of behavior.

Edit: I almost forgot to mention, anyone who goes to the South Bronx to teach is a true-blue American hero.

[infusionman]

36. I joined the army in the 70"s

For me it was a good decision because I was in the middle of a
bad divorce between my parents and I wanted to get away from
them.

Just because it was right for me back then, doesn't make it
right for my sons one of which graduates from high school this
spring. If my kids are going to do their duty, I want them to
die for their country, not some third world country that
doesn't even appreciate what we are trying to do for them. 

Incidentally, my son received a phone call from a Navy
recruiter on Friday. He is calling back tomorrow. My son is
not the least bit interested. He wants to go to school to be
an elementary school teacher.

[Allenberg]

38. ...

As an enlisted man, and having worked for military recruiters in the past, let me say that this is primarily an Army problem. A few years back, I was home on a recruiter-assistance program, and I walked into the Army recruiting office dressed as a civillian, and asked about the Air Force, (the branch I'm in). I told him that the Air Force would guarantee me a job in the profession which I chose, and with a nice enlistment bonus. The guy, a Staff Sergeant I believe, told me that it was all a bunch of bull, and that the Air Force would just stick me in any old job they need.

When I told him that I was on active duty for a few years, and that the Air Force paid me my bonus promptly after training and granted my guaranteed job, he was rather aghast. When I explained further that the way the Air Force works, was that they give you job they need if you come in as an open candidate (to one of 4 general fields - General, Mechanical, Electrical and Administrative I believe), he was incredulous.

My experience with Air Force recruiters has been that the policy is to try go get to talk to every kid out there, see if they'll drop a name and number, and give a call once. If the kid refuses, call back a few months later. If he refuses twice, drop him from the call-back rolls.

As far as targeting low-payroll areas, I can't say I'd blame a recruiter. This is where most enlistees come from. I know if my job was to sell beef, I wouldn't try to market my product at a conference of vegetarians. They, like everyone else in the world have a job to do, and they have to go with what works.

[deadmessengers]

39. Oh, it's an Air Force problem, too

My wife served in the Air Force, and the recruiter that fast-talked her into signing up promised her a job in IT-type work. She ended up being shipped out to a base in Turkey to do clerical work of some kind. She's the classic case of 'tell 'em anything to get them to sign', and then "stick (you) in any old job they need", as you put it.

Also, the '2 calls and dropped from the rolls' thing you mentioned certainly wasn't the case years ago, when I was I was incessantly harrassed by recruiters from 4 of the 5 branches (I don't think the Coast Guard ever called me). I know I told Air Force recruiters to go away on numerous occasions over the 6 or so years when I was a recruitment target. It's also possible that that is a new policy, or something localized to the recruiting command in your area, though.

On edit: Something that just occurred to me is that it's also possible that you were lucky enough to deal with one of the few recruiters to put his personal honor over his recruiting quota. I'm sure that recruiters who deal with recruits in a fair and honest manner exist, but I'm afraid that in my experience with them, they're the exception, rather than the rule.

[Allenberg]

40. ...

It could of been a squadron policy, as there were about 10 Air Force recruiters in the area I worked with, and each of them had the same policy. I'm not naive enough to speak for all recruiters, just the ones I know personally. ;)