John Titor was a hoax. But, did you ever read the story?

[Peak_Oil]

I just found an archive of the complete text of the original posts John Titor made in 2000/01. It's a great troll, probably the single best troll in history, but what a story! As you make your way through the story, he predicts a civil war starting in the US in 2004, starting with Waco-style events accelerating in frequency until by 2008 there is general concensus in the US that we are in a civil war going on.

Personally, I think there's a chance that oil has actually peaked, that we're in the beginning stages of a decline, and that GWB knows this. That's why we invaded Iraq. GWB steals election to continue the invasion of the Middle East, gets himself appointed Emperor in 2008 suspending the Constitution and blah blah blah. Amazingly enough, this troll may have inadvertently predicted a large amount of what is rapidly becoming history. Fallujah = Waco?

I've never done any research on the whole Waco incident so I don't know the backstory on it. Maybe I should dig into it a little. Something about muzzle flashes caught on infrared film that was explained away as reflected light coming off something? Illegal use of war machinery on a civilian population? I don't really know. That's one conspiracy theory I haven't dug into. I got enough of my own, you know?

Not for a moment do I believe that this was actually a time traveler, but how interesting.

http://www.anomalies.net/time_traveler/Iamfrom2036.html

[bluestateguy]

1. My best guess: He was someone with a PhD in history.

As well as good computer skills, so he would know the jargon. But he is not a time traveler.

[MikeBleedsBlue]

2. Titor

Here's another site with all of his "predictions".

http://www.johntitor.com/

[Peak_Oil]

4. He's probably from Celebration, FL

I saw some stuff on the web concerning a Titor Foundation, and I guess there's been a book published about his writings. Disney testing a story for a movie?

I dunno. It would be great to see this guy step forward and claim Greatest Troll Ever status. The character JT has such depth to it. It seems so consistent throughout, and runs for months on end.

It's wild that he says that the civil war was begun to restore the Constitution, that we were just a bunch of ass-sitting numbnutses who sat quietly and watched our rights get carted off to an undisclosed location.

I think the upshot of the troll was that he wanted to chat with his enemy, who was us.

[high density]

3. I spent a few hours reading about him last week

I think that his story about bringing back the IBM 5100 (5110?) to 2036 makes no sense. If he really was from 2036, I see no reason why they couldn't build an emulator for this 1970s piece of equipment if they really needed it. The schematics for it must exist somewhere and/or the actual equipment is probably in museums or dusty warehouses (even thirty years from now.) Plus the reason why he needed a 5100 made no sense.

It's very interesting reading, but it's also complete bullshit.

[Massacure]

7. There was a nuclear war in 2012 though.

Edit: or maybe it was 2015. I'm not sure. I'll have to look it up.

[high density]

9. I think he watched the film "Terminator 2" too many times

:crazy:

One of the big red flags to me is that he lumps Unix in like it's a programming language, but it's really an operating system. Sure, I could see a "military grunt" not knowing the difference, but if they were going through the effort of sending somebody through time to find an antique computer, I hope that they'd find somebody who knew the difference between an OS and a programming language.

It's entertaining reading but I think it's nothing more than a libertarian college kid with too much time on his hands.

[Occulus]

20. about that UNIX problem

There are UNIX libs that 'break' in 2038. Read here: http://www.gsp.com/2038/

"Our 32-bit root servers currently use the FreeBSD 4.7 operating system. As with all Unix and Unix-like operating systems, time and dates in FreeBSD are represented internally as the number of seconds since the UNIX Epoch, which was the 1st of January 1970 GMT.

32-bit systems can only store a maximum of 231 non-negative seconds (2,147,483,648 seconds or about 68 years). Which means that 32-bit UNIX systems won't be able to process time beyond 19 Jan 2038 at 3:14:07 AM GMT.

One of the common solutions will be to switch to 64-bit architecture systems that can store a maximium of 263 non-negative seconds (9,223,372,036,854,775,808 <9.2 Quintillion> seconds or about 292.27 Billion years), which is about 22 times the estimated age of our universe!

For the curious: A switch to 128-bit architecture systems would yield a maximum of 2127 non-negative seconds (170,141,183,460,469,231,731,687,303,715,884,105,728 <170 Undecillion> seconds), or about 18.4 Quintillion times as many as 64-bit systems."

[Occulus]

16. go here

http://johntitor.com/5100.htm

Yes, I know Titor was a hoax, BUT... the facts he states surrounding the 5100 appear to be accurate, and yes, UNIX has a problem that occurs in 2038... something involving some core libraries in the code, IIRC. That, too, is legit and a known problem.

His story would seem to make an excellent sci-fi film.

[high density]

21. Yeah, it's a legit problem

I just don't understand why the 5100 is the magic key to fixing things in 2036. I run Linux and I don't think the kernel contains any APL or BASIC code, or whatever language the 5100 understands. ;)

John Titor: "The 5100 has the ability to easily translate between the old IBM code, APL, BASIC and (with a few tweaks in 1975) UNIX... I do expect they will create some sort of emulation system to use in multiple locations."

Most Unixish operating systems are written in C or C++, so this comment that he's going to use the 5100 to "translate" between "Unix" and "APL/Basic/old IBM code" makes no sense to me. It also seems like he picked up on the "why don't you just emulate it?" question that was posed in the link that started this thread. I guess the nuclear war destroyed all of the IBM 5100s and its specifications, but left other old (four plus decades by 2036) code and machines that they have to fix. Doubtful... it sounds like a great movie, though.

[Occulus]

24. well... the code could survive

after all, it's files that are spread worldwide by our time now. But I do understand the C/C++ issue. Keep in mind, though, that UNIX need not be entirely written in any one language. And, in fact, it isn't (today, at least).

Also, he never, ever mentions linux, which I find a bit peculiar. Linux, being the free, open source UNIX, is more flexible than the proprietary code it's based on.

Still- it's my understanding that the translation features of the IBM 5100 were in fact undocumented for corporate reasons- IBM didn't want its customers to be able to use the less expensive 5100 to translate to languages used by their more expensive, later machines... even though the 5100 *could* do so. It was a ocorporate decision, from what I understand.

From what I've read, even some people who worked on developing the 5100 didn't know about its translation capabilities until they were told about them. That's what I read when I dug into this aspect of the hoax, at least.

[kk897]

5. I read about Titor recently, too

What an interesting story. Even from the angle of an internet phenomenon--just purely entertaining. I'm a sci-fi fan, so I love to speculate about such things being possible. I've also done a lot of research on the realities behind various so-called paranormal events and have seen that many accounts are credible. Titor? Dunno, but I enjoyed it.

[crispini]

6. Wow, he got "Ginger" right!

Interesting.

[Occulus]

27. Ginger? n/t

[Book Lover]

8. I devoured johntitor.com

It is a great story and too bad it wasn't a more widespread effective action. I'd love to have been the one who thought up the character. Effective way to warn - pretend to be someone from the future.

[Soup Bean]

10. Anyone ever read Pat Frank's "Alas, Babylon"?

I think John Titor read it. :)

[Danocrat]

11. Okay, okay, I admit it

I'm a closet Titor fan. Yes, I spent hours reading about him and his threads. Fascinating, isn't it?
There, I've said it.
Okay, I feel finished now.

[Peak_Oil]

32. Yeah, I'm with you.

Since I just found the link to the complete text of his posts, some 600+ pages of debate, I have just got to bow before this Troll among trolls. Absolutely engaging storytelling. This must have been the work of an immense number of hours of checking and re-checking detail after detail after detail.

I just couldn't imagine spending that much time on a troll. But somehow a great deal of what he says sound so plausible! It could be based on the movie Terminator plus a thorough reading of Limits to Growth and some really good physics homework. Who would have been the mad genius behind this? I'd love to have a cup of coffee with this guy.

And the predictions! How close they are to how reality has unfolded before us! If the Ohio recount goes ahead and shows that Bush stole the election but gets crowned anyway, what are the consequences? Really, what would they be? I'm not sure I'd want Kerry in office since he just laid down in his tracks and died the way he did. How pathetic. I don't for a second believe that he's a fighter. He didn't even wait for the votes to be counted. I can think of a couple other candidates that would have at least tried to do something, like spending his election warchest on making sure that at the very least that the votes were counted. At least that.

Nevertheless, if the recount shows that Bush stole the election, what pussies would we be to not at least try to fight! We have a moral imperative to oust the undeserved position of a scoundrel, if in fact that is what happened. If it can be proved...

Then, what do we do? I doubt that Bush would leave office gracefully and apologetically.

John Titor's notice about nonlethal weapons are so revealing. As are the warnings about the loss of rights. Rights cannot be taken away, or at least should not be fucked with. Consider the idea of free speech and freedom to assemble that are ruined by the idea of Free Speech Zones. How appalling!

[Jack_DeLeon]

12. So is there proof that it was a hoax?

Sure I think its a hoax, but I wouldnt go so far to claim that it is without any proof of it.

[Nordic]

13. there's already been a couple of movies like this

Wasn't that Kevin Spacey movie about this?

and then there's this one:


Plot Summary for
Happy Accidents (2000)

Ruby Weaver has man trouble: she tries to fix them, so she's stuck herself with a string of losers. Her current lover, Sam Deed, seems different: he's sweet, tender, just in from Dubuque. But, as Ruby tells her therapist about Sam, in flashbacks we see someone not quite of this world. In fact, Sam informs Ruby that he's from the future, 2470 to be exact, traveling back in time to avoid prosecution for his sister's death, and to find Ruby, whose photo he saw back home. Ruby's sure he's delusional, but most of the time she wants to keep him - and maybe fix him. Although he seems sane, maybe Sam hasn't told her the real story: what's he up to, and who is Chrystie Delancey?

[Threedifferentones]

14. A quote from JohnTitor.com

Posters Question: Are some areas of the United States safer than others?

JT's answer: Take a close look at the county-by-county voting map from the last elections.

Anyone know what this means?


3DO

[Occulus]

30. He was talking about "safe" areas for TRUE patriots

that is, those who hold that the Constitution is above any one man or woman.

Yes, he was only giving a clue.

[The Minus World]

15. Hitchhiker's Guide

I read through some of the posts on johntitor.com a couple of weeks ago, and I'm in agreement with most of the DUers who have posted in response to this thread. The idea of Titor, a time traveler sent on a mission to obtain obsolete computer hardware, having the will to risk exposure in order to post some casual observations about the bleak future of mankind, is rather farfetched. Whether it is a hoax or not is yet to be discovered, but it's painfully apparent upon reading his posts that Titor is an extremely intelligent individual, and a logically sound thinker.

Maybe "John Titor" is nothing more than the creation of a bored student with an overactive imagination; maybe the result of a successful sociology or psychology experiment, turned into urban legend through word of mouth about its odd plausability. Who knows? Regardless, though, it's still worth a read - even for the most skeptical among us.

[Occulus]

18. I think I read it was based on a prototype RPG

A D&D type game. VERY well thought out, if so. I'd play it.

The Titor character is really very interesting, and a lot of what he says is very possible.... CJD epidemic, ruined wasteland of a nation, the UNIX problem... even the reality divergence in his time traveling makes sense if you know about the "many worlds theory" postulated by modern quantum mechanics.

It makes too much sense.

[The Minus World]

23. Philosophy in RPGs

Many contemporary RPGs have tackled issues of worldwide crisis. The new Star Ocean for PS2 deals with pre-emptive war and technology, with the main character even taking jabs at our own predominant philosophy of imperialism. The town Airyglyph is clearly meant to represent America (well, it could represent any imperial society, actually).

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne deals with individuals who have taken it upon themselves to euthanize mankind through something called The Conception, under the premise that it is inevitable that man will create the circumstances of his own destruction, and that it would be infinitely better to begin anew with a blank template on which to create a Nietzschean utopia.

I agree with you about Titor, though. The more I analyze it; the more I imagine what my own behaviour would resemble if I were to be a time-traveler; the more it becomes apparent that this isn't just any hoax, but the ultimate hoax, if it turns out to be false - it leads me to believe that Titor's words should be read before they are judged. He lays out many cogent points to be considered, and for someone who is claiming to be from a another time, he seems remarkably eloquent and concise with his points.

[Occulus]

26. I'm especially interested in the concept of "reality divergence"

This is the concept yused to great effect in the "Myst" game series.

The way I understand it is this: every possibility has a probability attatched to it. Be that probability .0000000000000000000000000000000001%, it *is* a probability, and in a universe infinite in volume, every probability, no matter how small, has a chance of being "true".

So, extrapolate. How old is our universe, and how far does it extend? When our universe dies, does spacetime die with it?

I doubt it. The overall premise of the "many worlds theory" is that, no matter how small the probability, in an infinite Universe, everything that *can* happen *will*, eventually, happen. What this effective means is that every fevered nightmare or perfumed dream each and every one of us have ever had has concrete reality, somewhere, sometime.

However- is our universe the only possibility? Some physicists have postulated that a new universe is created for every probability that remains unrealized. That is, drip a drop of water on the back of your hand. It will go *this* way or *that* way, depending. Now, suppose it had gone the *other* way.

The effects of the drop rolling the *other* way, according to this theory, spawns a whole new universe to accomodate that single, little probability. Thus, there are an infinite number of possible universes, each depending on the outcome of any given sequence of events.

This extends down to the level of quantum particles, which essentially means that there are an unimaginably enormous number of possible universes to choose from. Being able to travel between them is the premise behind Titor's "time" travel.

It's not traveling through time at all- it's traversing through entirely different universes. Think John Chrighton from "Farscape". Think about unrealized realities, and you'll see where he gets the 2.5% divergence thing from.

And yes, this too is a real theory in quantum physics. As for how widely accepted it is, I don't know, but it's out there.

try looking here: http://www.hedweb.com/everett/everett.htm#faq

A FAQ on this concept. It's quite interesting. Apparently, Hawking agrees with the idea.

[The Minus World]

31. MWI and Bioethics.

I'm familiar with such a theory. An infinite universe with infinite permutations, all of which are manifest in an infinite number of possible universes- "world-lines" as Titor put it.

The FAQ is quite indepth, and I'm not going to pretend that I understood any substantial fraction of it; as a result, I'm in no position to argue either in favor of or against the plausibility of MWI. However, like any ill-informed barbarian, I believe that an endorsement from Hawking lends some undeniable credence to the theory.

If, in fact, the "many-worlds" theory is true, it would not surprise me one bit to find that a reality-hopping individual, like Titor claims to be, has visited our pre-Armageddon society to inform us about the necessity of bicycle tires in the future.

On a side-note, have you had the opportunity to read the Brave New World critique on hedweb.com? I have to admit that I was a bit appalled that some scientists are arguing for "engineered utopia" through the use of biotechnology. It seems an unavoidable truth to me that the "elimination of all pain" is an impossibility; pain is relative - subjective to the individual who experiences it: not a mere inconvenience that can be readily cast off at the proper stage of human development. Sustained, infinite pleasure may be an alluring notion, however, pleasure cannot exist in the absence of pain. Huxley was correct in asserting that sustained pleasure, like any sustained state, is a flatline; invariably, in humans, it resembles a state of zombification and absolute dullness.

Furthermore, all aspects of the human experience which lead to the development of things of higher caliber: inspiration, competition, non-conformity and risk - would be rendered obsolete due to their inherent divergence from accepted norms (the norm would be "permanent happiness," in this case. What would inspire someone who has no future pleasure to aspire towards? Who would compete if winning and losing were resultant in the exact same emotional response? What are the benefits of straying from the flock when no greater gains lie elsewhere? What would be the purpose of risk in a world where man is equally content in every aspect of acheivement? How could love exist? Is it just a primitive notion, meant to be replaced by a new, utilitarian method of thinking?). If not, then pain will not have been fully done away with, as the theory of designer-drug utopia suggests, as there will still remain gradations of pleasure which would be considered "pain" in relative terms. The removal of all pain is the removal of all pleasure.

[autorank]

17. Thanks for the tip! Really strange.

Spent a while reading this. What a con-artist this guy is. Very clever. I got tired of it when I realized he's an reasonably intelligent but "ill"-read survivalist who hates people who live in cities. His 'fast forwarded' politics looked like militia + conservationist assumptions with a Book of Revelations solution. He revealed one major flaw that was apparent as soon as he was pressed. Any "N war" or nuclear war would be the end life on the planet, a fact widely known since the early sixties. Sorry, TT, you are a flake but an engaging one. Thanks for the link.

[Occulus]

19. I don't know....

A couple well-placed nuclear strikes here in the US would very effectively put us out of the game for quite a while. Think Washington and L.A., or maybe NYC, Chicago, and S.F.

It would poison our land, for sure, and make a LOT of trouble for the rest of the world. The question is.... would any other nation see it as a worthy price to pay?

[autorank]

22. Can't argue with that but...

TT said that at least 100 cities would be hit. That's enough for a nuclear winter and a spread of radiation around the world. We would respond so there you have it, 200 conflagrations. This is not to mention the results from the never to be left out middle east. Yikes, the planet would glow for centuries and there would be nothing left to do any traveling, let alone the guy on these posts. Don't get me wrong, it was actually fascinating, in a guilty sort of way, to read this stuff and the responses. I really laughed at the poster who was concerned about the time travelers safety. OMf'ingG!

[Occulus]

25. What would a 1/4 kiloton nuke do?

A *small* nuke. A suitcase bomb. Or, better yet, 100 small, "dirty bombs".

They don't have to be 300 kiloton behemoths. Radiation, even in small doses, can kill. A warehouse here, a factory there, hell, bomb an unpopulated river valley and watch the poison spread.

The bombs don't have to be spectacularly large to inflict spectacular damage over the long term. I think that's what he was getting at- many areas would be so 'hot' that it wouldn't be safe to live, or fish, or hunt there... but the *land* would be intact, other than being irradiated.

We often think of such attacks as "needing" to be huge to be a success. This is not so. Even a 1/4 kiloton nuclear weapon, or a "dirty bomb" giving off as much radiation, would clear the area of inhabitants pretty fast.

Even a little nuclear radiation can be deadly. Maybe that's what the hoaxer was getting at.

[SmileyBoy]

28. Like someone else said, Titor's story would make a good sci-fi film.

Interesting that some of what he predicted may still come to pass. Though I don't really see nuclear war in the future.

[Occulus]

29. Do you really ever know, with this group?

In modern terms, the Biblical Armageddon has a nuclear ring to it, and we all know how the group in the WH sees Biblical prophecies....


theirs to fulfill.....