How did we lose Jesus?

[DianeG5385]

I'm playing back the Byrds, CSN, et al tonight and wondering how we lost religion. I personally am agnostic, but wishing I could believe. Truly, believing is so much easier than questioning. In any case, my autistic son loves to listen to music so tonight is sixties retro. Every song I listen to is imbued with liberal christian philosophy.... "Jesus is just allright with me"..."Get together" "Mr. tamborine man"..I think the liberal wing was co-opted, no duh to most of you, but still, christian principles are liberal principles, so why do the hate dogs on TV win the day??

[yellowdogintexas]

1. much of what the hate dogs spew out appeals to people's

baser instincts:
mine is better than yours
it has to be this way or you will die
if I do this just so, I will get the reward,etc

just like Republicans appeal to people's baser instincts

[DianeG5385]

5. Has anybody enquired as to what heaven's reward is???

Frankly, sounds tepid to me which is why I am agnostic.

[BeHereNow]

13. Think of Heaven in these terms...

which I trust you will not disagree with as
possible. Possible is the first step in belief.
Remember Kessler?
"Energy can neither be created or destroyed,
it only changes form."
Scientific law, badly paraphrased I am sure.
Now my understanding of heaven is a nearness to God or good,
rather than a nearness to people like George Bush, who by his
fruits (scripture) we know is extremely close to Satan or bad energy.
Now if you had your preference when the energy that is you
changes form, which side of the spectrum would you want
to end up on?
If when we die, our energy changes form, leaves our bodies etc...
and there are choices of good energy and bad energy force
fields, like heaven or hell, I sure as heck have had enough of
Bush energy here on earth.
bhn

[BeHereNow]

2. "My kingdom is not of this world"

John: 18:36
bhn

[Sandpiper]

3. Because being hateful is always easier than being thoughtful

Most people don't really want to read, think about, or pay attention to the words that Jesus actually said. All that nonsense about loving your enemies and giving all you have to the poor just isn't practical.

They'd rather just imagine him as a Billy Badass who hated homos, welfare bums, and wouldn't hesitate to bomb the crap out of his enemies.

[russian33]

4. Wasn't that the guy who was crucified?

;)

[DianeG5385]

8. Shameful

If Jesus actually could see us today, he would not know what to do with us. Jesus favored the weak and defenseless. That is not us. As I speak, "Jesus is just allright" by the Byrds plays on. My autistic son is lovin' it!!! 16 min version!

[bobbieinok]

6. beginning in 1960, republicans and conservative churches tied God to

the republican party.

The major blow to the 'bible belt-solid south' came in 1960 when the democratic party nominated a Roman Catholic for president.!!

I was an undergrad in TX and saw how it really upset so baptists and others.

One of the major campaign stops/broadcasts was a one-hour meeting between JFK and the Houston Baptist Ministerial Alliance. The major problem: baptists and others believed a Catholic's first allegiance would be to the Pope/Vatican and then to the US.

(It would be great to find a video of this nation-wide broadcast.)

I don't defend this view; I just remember what so many said in OK and TX.

[Cuban_Liberal]

7. I wish I could tell you how we lost Jesus.

I don't remember when and how he got dragged so firmly into the political arena. All I know is that I am both deeply religious and thoroughly progressive.
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org

[left is right]

21. actually

i consider myself progressive because I am deeply religious. (I bet you are, too.) I see being progressive as the best way to follow in the footsteps of Christ

[Az]

9. Post Modernism

The fundamentalists believe absolutely. They believe there is no room for questioning. They believe that any that question are evil.

Post Modernism teaches tolerance. It teaches that everyone has a say in the process and no one position can be raised above another. Obviously these two positions are going to bump heads. And this is exactly what happened.

Those who believe that the only word is that of God and Jesus are not going to take kindly with share the podium with pagans and atheists and any other belief that wanders in off the street.

At first the fundies were margenalized by the general Post Modern ethics necissary in a secular society. But eventually they learned how to beat it at its own game. Instead of trying to shutdown everyone else they realised that PostModernism gave them a platform to shout from. Because it argued that everyone deserved to have a voice the fundies could demand their right to their beliefs as long as it was couched the right way.

Meanwhile because those that truly embraced the idea of Post Modernism did not feel they could press their position on others the only ones actively promoting their position became the fundies. There is no coherent alternative pushed forward by the left to counter the fundies. Thus their concepts and ideas have found fertile ground and they have hijacked Jesus and his teachings for their own.

[K-W]

10. The same reason the left lost everything.

The left was systematically purged.

Take a little look through modern American history. Over and over again, people on the left are purged from American institutions, religions, business, entertainment, politics and universities.

Religious institutions are purged of leftists and right wingers get massive amounts of money and support.

[RoyGBiv]

11. The quick answer ...

The quick answer is that we didn't really lose "Jesus." Those 60's song writers were trying to do the same thing many of us are trying to do today, i.e. pointing out that Jesus was a peacemaker, counseled us to love one another, to try to make the world a better place. They were saying, "Hey, ya know this 'make love not war' thing we have going here? That's a Christian thing to do," in the face of conservatives calling them godless, commie, pinkos.

"We" haven't had Jesus since Jesus died. People, typically people in positions of power or wanting power, use his image because it appeals to the masses.

[DianeG5385]

12. This is the truest post

"Mr. Tamborine Man" playing now. I feel like a sixties hippie, with a cause I know not of. ( I am so not a hippie) I had the coolest cathecism in the world, jesuit priests who allowed us to question our faith. We listened to Simon and garfunkel and deconstructed them. Think on that. I fear our kids are deficient in context unless we teach them ourselves. it's hard w/ teenagers, but when you play cool period music they tend to listen.

[DianeG5385]

14. Just listened to The times they are a changin'

up now "turn, turn turn". Our parish priests told us to listen to the music of the times, back in the sixties. What happened to them? The Byrds took verses straight out of the bible and yet, no one listens. Even on this post I feel a great emptiness.

[Tsiyu]

19. I remember back in the day- 1971

I distinctly recall a sermon a Catholic friend's mom had heard and shared with me back in the day.

The priest said God wouldn't want sing "Everybody's beautiful ( in his own way) " because everybody isn't. Some people rape children and kill for bloodlust and would steal from their own Grandma.

And he wouldn't want everyone singing "Raindrops keep falling on my head," because that was the opposite of the first song: things are never totally negative.

He would sing, "I never promised you a rose garden."


That always stuck with me.

[burn the bush]

15. Have no fear. The Jesus stolen by the right wing is not the loving one

They got war monger Jesus, an arch nemesis of the "love one another" Jesus.

[Goathead]

23. I agree, Christ was all about love

They don't really worship Jesus at all. Their version of Christianity would be like claiming you are a Marxist, then going out to buy the Wall Street Journal to see how your shares of Boeing are doing. Republicans and Christian fundies worship themselves and Mammon.

[Old and In the Way]

16. My favorite religious tune

Heaven is 10 zillion light years away
Lyrics and music by Stevie Wonder


They say that heaven is 10 zillion light years away.
And just the pure at heart will walk her righteous streets someday.

They say that heaven is 10 zillion light years away
But if there is a God, we need Him now "Where is your God"
That's what my friends ask me

And I say it's taken Him so long 'Cause we've got so far to come... Tell me people
Why can't they say that hate is 10 zillion light years away
Why can't the light of good shine God's love in every soul
Why must my color black make me a lesser man I thought this world was made for every man He loves us all, that's what my God tells me
And I say it's taken Him so long 'Cause we've got so far to come...

But in my heart I can feel it, yeah, Feel His spirit wow oh woo... Feel it, yeah, feel His spirit... I... can't say that heaven is 10 zillion light years away
But if so let all be pure at heart
Just to walk her righteous streets I pray
Let God's love shine within to save our evil souls For those who don't believe will never see the light "Where is my God" - He lives inside of me And I say it'

Its taken Him so long 'Cause we've got so far to come... No people, "where is your God?" Inside please let Him be
And I say it's taken Him so long 'Cause we've got so far to come...

But if you open your heart you can feel it yeah yeah Feel His spirit, yeah Feel it, feel His spirit, wow oh wow... Feel it, you can feel His spirit I opened my heart one morning and I sho nuff could feel it yeah yeah Feel His spirit yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah You can feel it, yeah, feel His spirit You can feel it, yeah, feel His spirit

[Arianrhod]

17. America never had Jesus.

By the time this country was founded, Christianity had long since lost any spiritual power it may have once had. With the access to political office that came about under Constantine in the 4th Century, along with the wanton destruction of centers of learning such as Alexandria in the same time period, all pretense to spiritual search and discovery was laid aside, in favor of secular power. That's why institutionalized Christianity in America spends most of its efforts on refashioning the laws in its favor, because the "religion" it espouses is nothing more than a political movement. It would not survive if its lobbyists didn't tip the scales in their favor.

That doesn't mean there aren't individual Christians who are pursuing spiritual values. I don't happen to know any personally; all the Christians I've ever met have been Fundamentalists. This is especially true of those I hung out with in the 60s and 70s. All the touchy-feely "Godspell" doctrine of that time served only as a facade for the underlying belief that Christianity ought to be the law of the land. While many Christians did focus on love as the basis of their religion back then, I submit that they were only following the path of the youth subculture in which they were immersed. These people were still every bit as radical as any Falwell lapdog today; they merely projected a more palatable image.

Still, I'm willing to allow that there are Christians who aren't of this tribe. I just don't think they are numerous enough, or powerful enough, to make any difference. :(

[InvisibleBallots]

22. hi, Arianrhod!

"With the access to political office that came about under Constantine in the 4th Century, along with the wanton destruction of centers of learning such as Alexandria in the same time period, all pretense to spiritual search and discovery was laid aside, in favor of secular power.

I assume you are familiar with Jerome, John Chrysostom, and Augustine. You have judged them all to have even a "pretense" of "spiritual search and discovery" and as nothing more than paens to secular power. Which work of Jerome's did you find so empty?

We may disagree, but I would never equate an opposing, educated, well formed opinion with, say, ignorant, uneducated, anti-Christian bigotry.

"By the time this country was founded, Christianity had long since lost any spiritual power it may have once had. ... That's why institutionalized Christianity in America spends most of its efforts on refashioning the laws in its favor, because the "religion" it espouses is nothing more than a political movement. It would not survive if its lobbyists didn't tip the scales in their favor."

The Protestants have lots so much political power that they have been not been the driving force behind many American social movements, except for the revolutionary war, the abolitionist movement, prohibition, populism, progressivism, Civil Rights - aside from those, the Protestants have barely had an influence of the spiritial and social life of America.

[Arianrhod]

27. Hey there.

> I assume you are familiar with Jerome, John Chrysostom, and Augustine.

None of these men lived to see the consolidation of the Church as a political power, although I would argue that Augustine, at least, helped set the stage for it.

> You have judged them all to have even a "pretense" of "spiritual search and discovery" and as nothing more than paens to secular power.

Insofar as Augustine held that society could not substantiate its legitimacy without a full acceptance of Christianity, I'd say he would be on pretty easy terms with the modern Fundamentalists. But my comments were directed towards the Church as an institution, not at particular Christians. I kind of like Francis, for example. :)

The Protestant Church under Luther and Calvin was a horrible demonstration of ego run amok. The Catholic Church's behavior towards what it arbitrarily deemed "heretics" was anything but admirable. And the current Fundamentalists--well, we all know what they're doing. Are you really going to argue that the Church has been a sanctuary of peace, prosperity and enlightenment for the past 2000 years? That might be entertaining, but it certainly doesn't approach the truth. The Church is a product of the political and social realities in which it is immersed, and can hardly be said to be pursuing pure spiritual attainment. All one has to do is look at the individuals it produces. Moreover, some of its best products--such as the aforementioned Francis--had to leave the Church to gain spiritual awareness. The Church has been blocking spiritual development for centuries, and my opinion is that the cause of this error is its embracing of political power over spiritual truth.

> We may disagree, but I would never equate an opposing, educated, well formed opinion with, say, ignorant, uneducated, anti-Christian bigotry.

Not openly, anyway, eh? :D

> The Protestants have lots so much political power that they have been not been the driving force behind many American social movements

I have no idea what you mean by this. Are you answering my allegation that the Church is a political movement, by referencing political acts the Church has involved itself in? I fail to see how that refutes anything I said.

BTW, the very first political act the Protestant Church engaged in, in the birth of our nation, was The Great Awakening of 1790, a Christian rebellion against the equality of all men as set forth in the Constitution. The Revolution, OTOH, was fomented by Deists, agnostics, and at least one atheist. :)

I'm very amenable to men and women who are pursuing spiritual goals, regardless of their particular beliefs. I embrace all faiths insofar as they are seeking the same enlightenment I am, and I learn eagerly from their various paths. But for those whose primary goal is to defend their position, I'm afraid I have little time. The history of the Church speaks for itself. The current state of the Church is a reflection of that history. That's just the way it is. :shrug:

[Tsiyu]

"Then pealed the bells more loud and deep"

" I heard the bells on Christmas Day,
Their old familiar carols play;
And wild and sweet the words repeat.
Of Peace On Earth, Good Will to Men

I thought as now this day had come,
The belfries of all Christendom
Had rung so long the unbroken song
Of Peace on Earth, Good Will to Men.

And in despair, I bowed my head.
"There is no peace on earth," I said
For hate is strong and mocks the song
Of Peace on Earth, Good Will to Men

Then pealed the bells more loud and deep.
"God is not dead, nor doth he sleep.
The wrong shall fail.
The right prevail,
With Peace on Earth, Good Will to Men."

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

So.....what HAVE they done with the Prince of Peace?

[Tsiyu]

18. "Dupe nt

[noel711]

20. We DIDN'T lose Jesus....

It was the right wing who are off course, and "lost."

Jesus always stands with the oppressed and forgotten.
Always. Anytime folks draw a line in the sand and exclude others, Jesus stands with those excluded.

The right wing has held up an idol, their own view of who and what Jesus was; Not real. This misread the scripture.

Jesus' teachings, his life and death are vastly radical.
You can't be a real Christian, and exclude others.

[Lexingtonian]

24. You have to leave 'Christ' in order to find Jesus

Our Jesus of Nazareth is a humane and soulful being. Theirs is a traditional Mediterranean or Near Eastern deity walking the Earth who didn't actually ever use a latrine and always play-acted being a human, albeit a nice one.

Our Jesus is not a God, he's a son. For the dullards it's a far more dangerous/tricky and difficult thing to believe than that He's God, Period, Just Obey And Stop Thinking Too Much.

[yella_dawg]

25. You check under the couch cushions? n/t

[Sparkly]

26. "My Sweet Lord," "Godspell," "Jesus Christ Superstar"

I've wondered the same thing. There was a sort of Christian revival then that seemed to go along with "Peace and Love" as themes in the zeitgeist, which made sense considering what Jesus said and did.

The fanatical Jesus craze now seems more about hatred, intolerance, even violence. (I'm talking about rightwing nuts, not people of faith here -- so hope nobody takes offense!)

[Arianrhod]

28. Um, "My Sweet Lord" isn't a Christian song.

George Harrison was a follower of Lord Krishna. :)

I don't think there was so much a Christian revival back then, but rather that a lot of young people simply took their desire for a better world and put it into a religious context that they were familiar with.