People Voting Against Their Own Interests

[journalist3072]

For the life of me, I don't understand what causes a person to vote against their own best interests. I was just on CNN's website, and they have an article about the soldier who spoke truth to power today, when he asked Don Rumsfeld why they had vehicles in Iraq which were in such poor condition for a combat zone.

Anyway, his ex-wife says that he and she are both really strong Bush supporters, and they voted for him.

So that got me to thinking, this soldier knew before the election what the conditions are in Iraq, because he has lived it. He knows it is the Commander-in-Chief's responsibility to make sure soldiers have what they need before committing them to war. Yet he voted for Bush.

Somebody please help me understand this!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/08/rumsfeld.troops/index.html

[maveric]

1. Moral issues like abortion and gay marraige.

Issues as such that were set out to make the god-fearing simple folk scared and appalled.

[CornField]

2. If you haven't already, you might want to read

Thomas Frank's book, "What's the Matter With Kansas? How the conservatives won the heart of America" It goes into the whole "voting against your own interests" in depth. j

For many, my extended family included, they cannot fathom voting for a Democrat because it would be "immoral" -- that is, they've have it stuffed inside their heads that Democrat="no values"

You see, it isn't even that Democrats hold the "wrong" values. They believe that Democrats hold no values at all. It would be like voting into a void. It would be even greater than a sin.

[Okieprogie]

5. great post....

a lot of democrats can't understand why middle america does not support our values. The problem is that "we" aren't even unified that "values" exist. Much of what the conservatives call the "liberal elite" have been pusing the concept that there is no objective right or wrong. So even though the conservatives had a warped sense of god and morality, the simple fact that they preach that there is an aboslute right and wrong trumps the party that doesn't have it's concept of morality taken seriously because the "elite" of the party don't beleive that there is an objective right or wrong at all.

[rexcat]

15. I think a better book that really explains this issue is...

George Lakoff's "Moral Politics." People will vote their "moral" worldview more times then they will vote what is in their best interest.

[Kipepeo]

25. Or George Lackoff's

"Don't Think of an Elepehant."

he talks about the way peple frame things...if facts don't fit their frame of how the world works they toss the facts rather than their frame, which takes a lot longer to change.

[Okieprogie]

3. well...

did Kerry in any way communicate that he would be better for the troops? I'm not saying that he would not have been, but what matters is perception and not reality. The most imporant thing to a soldier and his/her family is the war. Where did Kerry stand on the war? Please don't give me a three page answer. If a presidential candidate can not explain his postion on a war in 5 seconds, he shouldn't be surprised that he loses.

[cattleman22]

4. Why do you ask this about low income people and not wealthy people?

Many wealthhy people vote for Democrats because they support the Democrat's social positions, even though it may hurt their own economic interests. Some low income people feel the same way about Republican social issues.

[CornField]

6. Because

Demanding $25,000 from someone who has $1,000,000 is quite a bit different than demanding $25,000 from someone who has $100.

[journalist3072]

7. Voting

I am asking this of anybody, not just poor people.

I think ANYONE is crazy to vote against their own interests, not just the poor.

[cattleman22]

8. I disagree

For most people, no one candidate or party is in perfect harmony with their beliefs or interests. People choose who to vote for based on which candidate or party who is for most of many, but not all of their interests.

[JI7]

26. wealthy people are not hurt by progressive economic positions

they are still wealthy.

[forgethell]

9. People DO NOT vote against

their interests. At least, not as they perceive them. We Democrats tend to tell them to vote for us because of our economic/foreign policy prescriptions. Ignore those social justice issues, such as abortion or gay marriage. They're not important to you. Go for the money. I guess we think that money is the only thing that matters to conservatives. But it doesn't seem to be the case. And if the issues are not important, then why do we support them so strongly? Obviously, we could take back power by dropping these issues and winning with our economic issues.

Well, the reason is: the issues are important. They are important to us, and there is no reason why they shouldn't be important to the conservatives. That's what politics is about, issues that are important.

So, how do we win? My own thoughts are that the people who voted for Bush did so because they were afraid that we would use the courts to impose gay-marriage, or whatever, on them. I think also, that they gained a lot of votes from thoses who oppose, on principle, the courts imposing solutions that should be decided (at least in their opinion) by the elected branches. Now, I may be wrong here, it wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last; but I think that if we were more prone to accept that the public is not ready for some things, yet, and try to educate them, and get our positions enacted through Congress, then we might begin to win some elections. And, when we won, as we will, because we are right, there won't be the bitter backlash that, say the Roe vs. Wade case provoked.

This probably won't be a popular opinion here, but I gotta call 'em as I see 'em.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

:hi:

[Maat]

10. Excuse me... when you vote for same-sex marriage,

you are not imposing anything on anyone. If their church says 'homosexuality is wrong,' then they can forego a relationship with people of the same sex. And they can leave the rest of us alone to live happily in an inclusive society.

Didn't mean that personally ... but I believe that we progressives must stand by our principles.

I've decided that not only am I pro-family, I'm pro-rainbow-of-families, and they are pro-fundamentalist (not pro-family).

[billbuckhead]

12. Amazing! How can liberals be "too politically correct' but have no values?

Only through massive propaganda. I guess not hating everyone different from white Christian male dominated heterosexuals isn't a value.

[forgethell]

29. Yes, well,

you may think that, and I may think that, but, believe me, the values people think that they are being imposed upon. and they are reacting accordingly. You know, I don't think that we will ever win their hearts and minds (and votes) until we at least understand their concerns and attempt to address them.

I live in a very conservative area of the country, so I have learned to listen to what they say. And I am not talking about votes. Yeah, vote for the progressive. I did. What I am talking about is taking the discussion out of the political arena by using the courts. This is what they really resent. And if we are right, and I believe that we are, then we will eventually win politically, and there will be much less resentment on both sides.

[madison2000]

11. I don't think a lot of people realize what their interests are

That may sound patronizing, but its true. If you are poor or working at a couple of minimum wage jobs, if you have lost your job to outsourcing, if you do not have health insurance... what does the Republican party have to offer you? Absolutely nothing, but a lot of people in this category voted for Bush because they think he's "one of them", just a regular guy. They don't realize he is totally aligned with the interests of wealthy people and corporations, and they don't see through his "family values" baloney. They eat up the God and America image.

I know some small business owners who vote Republican and I can't for the life of me see what Bush will do for them except screw them. But thinking of themselves as "business" people allows them to identify with the rich, and maybe if they vote that way, they'll become rich! I doubt it! Corporate interests and small business interests are very different things.

There are a lot of people who have a fear based religion, and a fear based politics, and a fear of the seamy side of American culture. They think that they are voting against bad things, like promiscuity and drug addiction, when they vote for conservatives- even though there is really no connection at all. They don't understand the relationship between culture and politics and the economy. They don't read or think critically or analyze things and they are afraid of people who do.

People vote against their own interests because they don't know what they are doing when they vote- they imagine cause and effect relationships where none exist.

[reality_bites]

13. Please. I need to know...

How do you know what someone else's self interest is ? For example, I don't know you, so how could I even begin to talk about your self interest ?

You can't assume you know someones self interest by analyzing what they say publicly. Who can know someone's private worries and whether their private worries outweigh their publicly stated worries when they calculate their self interest ?

This seems self-evident to me. It also seems rather arrogant for anyone to assume they can know someone else's self interest - especially someone they don't even know.

I know there is a "self interest" fad among some authors, but I don't get it, and I can tell you this fad does not advance any argument or change any minds. It widens the divide.

[journalist3072]

18. Identifying a Person's "Best Interests"

You have a point. A person really has to define what their own "best interests" are.

But the story I cited about the solider who questioned Rummy today is a classic example of someone who obviously voted against their own interests. This one is a no-brainer.

He has been serving in Iraq, putting his life on the line. He has been living that situation in Iraq, and knows first-hand that his government, and his Commander-in-Chief, failed to give him and the rest of the troops the necessary equipment to protect themselves in Iraq.

Yet, he voted for Bush. He voted for the man who essentially failed him. If that's not voting against your own interests, I don't know what is.

[reality_bites]

20. OK. Thanks n/t

[rbking]

21. not necessarily

Did Kerry say that he would be pulling out right away? No! He said we'd stay until the job was done, just like Bush. Now if you're a soldier and you believe that both candidates are going to leave you there until the job is done, and you further believe that Kerry is less likely to pony up the money for the military than Bush, then you might actually believe that voting for Bush is in your best interests.

[gottaB]

23. But why would you believe Kerry was less likely to pony up?

Kerry explicitly made an issue out of armour, body armour and armoured vehicles.

And if you looked into Kerry's position on withdrawing, you'd see that it was different from Bush on stuff like permanent military bases. It seems with Bush, you know what you're getting, and it's hardly in your interests. With Kerry, you had some uncertainties, but you could be certain that it wouldn't be Bush. Would it be rational for a soldier to believe that a Kerry Presidency would be worse than the status quo?

Kerry's positions were distorted and he was personally attacked for the purpose of generating irrational fears in the minds of voters so they could be persuaded to vote against their own best interests. Simple as that.

[bobweaver]

14. Belief systems are also "interests"

Within these people are a variety of "interests" such as survival, financial needs, and moral beliefs including whatever - abortion is a sin, letting gays get married harms the institution of marriage, whatever it is. These beliefs are interests to these people, they are something the hold close to themselves and they are very deep because the beliefs have been drilled into them since they were children. They may perceive their financial status to be stable enough that the emotionally charged moral beliefs complely overwhelm the rational arguments that X party wants to raise the minimum wage where Y party wants to eliminate the minimum wage, etc. The Republicans clearly understand the power that these moral beliefs have over people's judgement.

[bobweaver]

16. No no no, that's "class warfare" is the usual counterattack

The GOP has effectively removed economic issues from the table in almost all elections. Anytime someone tries to bring it back to the table, the response is quick and automatic: "You can't bring that up... that's class warfare!" and the implication is that class conflict has no place in American politics. Stupidly, the Democrats go along with this, and rarely even bring up economic issues. The Democrats should make this the cornerstone of their campaigns, because on economic issues they can whip the Republicans' butts.

[journalist3072]

19. You're Right....

The GOP has used the issue of so-called class warfare to their advantage.

And I would argue that we have not effectively responded to that.

I am waiting for a Democratic candidate for President to stand up forcefully and say it is NOT class warfare to talk abou the growing gap between the haves and the have nots. I'm waiting for them to say that it should be an American value for us to try to lift everyone up, not just some.

[billyskank]

28. Of course the truth of the matter is

that class warfare is very much being waged in America, and the advances are being made all by one side.

[JPace]

17. Many churches are telling their flocks that voting for a democrat

is the same a voting for the Devil. That is pretty scary for people who follow a faith that believes in hell. Many churches are getting way to political and have ambitions of a Christian government takeover. I think Joh Stewart has a point when he says that religion can be carried too far and become a mental illness. This needs to become a national topic and churches who believe in separation of church and state and who have the intelligence to understand the wisdom of this need to band together for a strong voice. What is happening here is tearing this country apart.

[hfojvt]

22. I dislike that pre-supposition

You make self-interest the ultimate value. My world does not work that way. To sacrifice your self interest for others is not crazy, it is heroic.
As far as voting goes, I would like voters to vote for what is best for their country, their species, and their planet. Vote Democrat, not for selfish reasons, but because Democrats are actually trying to solve social and environmental problems, whereas Republicans are just looking for ways to increase corporate profits.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. I voted against my self interest

I am better off on a personal financial basis with Chimpus Khan in office.

I am not directly and personally impacted by many of the changes he wants to make.

However, I am morally outraged at virtually **everything** King Khan does. I could not live with *me* were I to have voted for him.

So, on the one hand, I voted directly against my own self interest. On the other hand, I voted my "moral values".

I am the mirror image of a bush voter.

I can understand a person voting against their own self interest. What I can't understand as easily is the moral values they *do* vote for.

[Piperay]

27. Same here

financially I actually do better under chimp and living in CA I likely won't feel the worst of his excesses, so by voting for Kerry I was actually voting against what was better for myself. I would never vote for chimp though because I care about how he hurts others besides myself. I also would like to be able to continue to breath the air and drink clean water and repug 'values' suck.