Guys - here's a way to help Michael Moore. PLEASE DO THIS!

[calimary]

Guys, I'm relaying this from a post in our Dem-CA groups today.

JUST DO IT.

FYI - and consider voting for anything but that bloody Jesus movie for best drama....

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Moore
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 14:51
Subject: People's Choice Awards Nominates "Fahrenheit 9/11" as
"Favorite Film of the Year"

December 8, 2004

Dear Friends,

May I take a break from our post-election despair to share with you a
little piece of happy/silly/cool news?

"Fahrenheit 9/11" has been nominated by the People's Choice Awards as
the American public's "Favorite Film of the Year." The five nominees
were chosen from a poll of thousands of Americans in mid-to-late
November. The other nominees for best film are "Spiderman 2," "The
Incredibles," "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" (with Jim
Carrey), and "Shrek 2." It is the first time ever a documentary has
been nominated for best film by the People's Choice Awards.

The People's Choice Awards are considered, among all the awards shows,
to be the one which most accurately reflects the "mainstream" public
opinion in the United States.

OK, now, here's the best part: YOU get to vote! Online. Now. Just go to http://www.pcavote.com/voting/film/f01.shtml and click on the little circle next to "Fahrenheit 9/11" in the "Favorite Movie" category and press the "vote" button. Voting is going on now and continues only through this coming Monday, December 13, at 3:00pm ET, so send an e-mail to your friends and let them know they can vote, too. Winners will accept their awards live on CBS on January 9.

calimary note: BTW - Michael Moore says he wouldn't ordinarily make a big deal out of something like this, except that...

(snip)

...a group of top Republicans took out a full page ad in USA
Today (and placed a similar one in the Hollywood trade magazine,
Variety) proclaiming that "An election is over, but a war of ideas
continues." The point of the ad was to say that while they, as right
wing conservatives, were proud of getting rid of Kerry, there was still
one more nuisance running around loose they had to deal with -- me!
They also issued a not-so-subtle threat to the Academy Awards voters
that, in essence, said don't even THINK about nominating "Fahrenheit
9/11" for Best Picture. And Bill O'Reilly recently bellowed that if the
Oscars recognize my work this year, Middle America will boycott
Hollywood.

Michael Moore went on to say that perhaps Middle America's favorite awards show could trump all this - one small step for us to start taking our country back.


Again, go to http://www.pcavote.com/voting/film/f01.shtml if you want
to vote for our film. I promise, if we win, to give a nice and polite
speech.

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com
[e-mail]

[calimary]

1. I'm kicking this one, doggone it.

KICK.

[calimary]

2. AND I voted in it already.

So there!

[lolly]

3. Done!

n/t

[calimary]

9. Thanks!

WE should weigh in on these things, too.

[robbedvoter]

4. Did it - to help myself, not just MM. Truth is good!

[calimary]

10. Damned straight.

Glad you did. Thanks.

[For PaisAn]

5. done

gladly

[calimary]

11. Excellent!

Thank you, hugely!

[bobbobbins]

6. michael moore is no more than an opportunist

...i think its apparent by his release of 2 books at once right before the election, his push to get f9-11 out before the election, and now that bush is re-elected he immediately announces hes going to make a new movie...you can say hes just trying to get the message out all you want, but at this point hes just preaching to the choir and trying to line his pockets, he'll get no more money or support from me.

[calimary]

8. Before I tell you good-bye, I had a chance to meet him last Friday.

I sat at breakfast with him and just a small number of people. So I got my questions answered.

He is anything BUT an opportunist.

Go worship kkkarl rove. Barbara Walters just did.

http://www.democrats.us/editorial/lyon120704.shtml

[bobbobbins]

14. did you ask him...

Why just before the election he released not only the f9-11 dvd(which is understandable), but 2 books(a F9-11 readers companion? i mean come on...), that do nothing but preach to the choir and act as a last minute grab for more money, in case bush loses and his cash cow die?

And did you ask him why making another anti-bush movie is relevant at all when he can't run for re-election?

[NoPasaran]

15. How dare he make another anti-Bush movie

When he could be doing a worshipful movie about Ann Coulter instead?
/sarcasm

[calimary]

18. Your questions are irrelevant.

Perhaps you should join the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth" and contribute to THEIR next character-assassination project. Theirs were full of lies and distortions while Michael Moore had his fact-checked before its release.

From the get-go (WAY before our discussion), he was up-front about wanting this material out there for public consumption before the election, so voters could make informed decisions - which they could easily have done WITHOUT any Michael Moore offerings if the news media had bothered to get off its knees and step away from the altar of bush-worship for even a few moments.

We did not discuss books because this was a film group.

And another anti-bush movie? His next one's about the health insurance industry.

[bobbobbins]

26. just do a google search...michael moore sequel, and see what you get.

[bobbobbins]

27. and just because he does fact-checking...

doesn't mean its not just preaching to the choir to make a buck...i never disputed his facts.

[Kingshakabobo]

29. You wouldn't let a little thing like the truth to sway your opinion?

Just like our administration. :shrug:

[bobbobbins]

33. what does that even mean???

what are these facts you're speaking of? that he fact checks? My point is that while he may tell the truth, hes just telling it to people who already know it...much like a preacher talking to his congregation. There was a time when he was relevant, but that time has passed. If you want to keep lining his pockets, thats fine...but I'm not going to waste my energy on him, there are alot better things we could be doing than patting ourselves on the back for knowing the truth.

[calimary]

35. People I've encountered here do not indulge in "patting ourselves on

the back for knowing the truth."

Most everyone's posts I've read, regarding this particular kind of debate, has been busting their buns TRYING TO GET THE TRUTH OUT to others who do NOT know the truth, because they insist on allowing themselves to be spoonfed pablum from outlets like the Pox "news" channel and the limbaugh contingent. Since your posts are low in number, I'm guessing you may not had much experience here reading other people's accounts of having enlightened a friend or coworker or neighbor who simply DID NOT KNOW this stuff because all they watch is o'reilly or hannity or brit hume, or they listen exclusively to limbaugh or roger hedgecock or michael savage or some such distortion-maven.

Unlike what was expressed in "The X-Files," the truth is NOT out there. It's being hidden, misrepresented, and distorted. Did YOU happen to see the presidential limousine egged - on the nightly news coverage of inauguration day, 2001? The ONLY place you saw that was in "Fahrenheit 911" because it happened, alright, but nobody on OUR American airwaves covered it. Unless you regularly tune into the BBC. I've known people who've traveled in Europe and come away completely shocked at what they see in the papers and on TV in terms of coverage of American politics. An Israeli guy at our breakfast table said when he traveled back to Israel, the reaction among everyone he encountered was amusement and confusion in terms of the contents of "F911." They already knew everything in it because they'd seen it in THEIR news coverage, and they were scratching their heads about the bewilderment about these things from America. They'd say "what's so stunning about this movie? We already knew that. The Americans don't know this stuff?"

Michael Moore was NOT simply preaching to the choir. And certainly not merely to make money.

[bobbobbins]

39. bottom line is...

two books and a dvd right before the election...if you can't see that for the blatant cash grab that it is, then I'd say you're a bit blind to the fact that people on the left can take advantage of a situation just as much as people on the right.

[Hamlette]

65. you're mightly pure bobbobbins

I suppose you've figured out a way to support yourself without making money.

I could give a rat's a** if he did it for the money. I honestly believe Michael Moore loves this country and is doing what he thinks will help fight the right wing nut jobs who now have control.

That he makes money on it is the very basis of capitalism. See, if Michael Moore couldn't have made money on 9/11, he might have been working in a factory making widgets. While I believe the government can provide a better safety net than is currently offered in the US, I am not a communist and Michael Moore is a perfect example of capitalism at its best.

[calimary]

131. And I'm sure Lionel Chetwynd and

the "Celsius 411" folks were not also in it to make a few bucks, either. Or all the folks writing books to attack Michael Moore and others like him - they're only in it for the nobility, too, I'm sure.

[bobbobbins]

135. whats that have to do with anything at all?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. "Patting ourselves on the back for knowing the truth"

I'll admit to that. Knowing the truth is a good thing, and those of us who know it should be proud of the fact, not worried about whether it makes us different from the masses.

[H2O Man]

55. That's simply not true.

It's another republican talking point. There is no basis for it in fact. Many, many people who are not in "the choir" watch Moore's films.

[bobbobbins]

60. you again! i told you the film isn't the problem, read before posting

[H2O Man]

69. I read what you posted.

And as I said, you are bringing up something that has nothing to do with this thread, in a cheap effort to discredit Michael Moore, and to take attention of his movie. The republican party is making a coordinated effort to do that right now. I will continue to address it when I see it. No one asked you to buy any product. You are trying to distract attention from the original thread.

[Mandate My Ass]

94. He donated thousands of copies of F9-11 DVD

He wanted to air it on network or cable TV prior to Nov. 2nd (putting him out of the running for an Oscar).

He said to bootleg it, download it and distribute it any way you can. He said during the Slacker Uprising tour to buy his book, Will They Ever Trust Us Again? and photocopy it and give it out to anybody and everybody you know. He said that particularly a book of letters from Iraq is not something "proprietary" it's something important for the public to know about and he donated the proceeds to a legal fund for GIs who refuse to serve in Iraq.


Big opportunist, and fat too. :eyes:

[RetroLounge]

127. Whatta bunch of bullshit.

Turn off Rush, you'll last longer...

RL

[calimary]

32. He wasn't just preaching to the choir, either, my friend.

I forget what the exact figure was, but a large number of moviegoers who described themselves as Republican later said this was a movie they'd recommend to their friends. There were more than a few who said it changed their minds. Moore said when it played in cities in the South that were near military bases - where you'd expect mainly VERY pro-administration people and gun-ho warriors, it sold out repeatedly at the box office.

By the way, at a forum the night before the breakfast, he stated that he had yet to see any money from "Bowling for Columbine." So if being a money-monger was part of it... Perhaps if YOU will go back through his statements you will see repeatedly that he was trying to get the truth out that THE MEDIA refused to present. He stated several times, in several venues including the two I attended, that you should NOT have to spend up to nine bucks at the Cineplex to get information that SHOULD BE AVAILABLE, FREE, ON THE EVENING NETWORK NEWSCASTS.

[bobbobbins]

36. you sir are misrepresenting me...

i never said F9-11 didn't make a difference, I'm a fan of the movie and think it helped a great deal. Its the merchandising that took place right before the election that is shameful.

[calimary]

38. I am not a "sir," thank you.

[wryter2000]

42. Well, thanks for keeping this kicked

The more people see this thread, the more votes F911 gets.

:kick:

[Kingshakabobo]

54. Tell us again how you are so sure profits are his motive?

I must have missed that part of your posts. Do you know Moore personaly? Have you ever met him? Are you a mind reader? Please clue us in.

[bobbobbins]

59. oh my god...its called deduction

sherlock holmes used it...how are you so sure hes not? did you talk to him?(and even if you did, are you sure hes not lying?) are you a mind reader? The signs point to greed...sequels and books coming out at a super fast pace to capitalize on a ship that might have sunk had bush lost the election.

[Kingshakabobo]

66. So if someone were to deduce that you were a freeper

they would be correct? I mean, I'm not calling you a freeper but the signs point to disruption....and your posts coming out at a super fast pace bashing Moore for being a capitalist. Like I said, I'm not calling you a freeper.

[bobbobbins]

71. yeah, heaven help me if i say something bad about Michael Moore.

that must immediately make me a freeper

[Don Claybrook]

78. It's called deduction n/t

[bobbobbins]

83. lets see...

I say one bad thing about michael moore = Freeper

Michael Moore releases 2 books and a dvd right before an election that has to potential to diminish his financial earnings should bush lose...then immediately after bush wins announces hes making a sequel to his movie, and nots not a blatant grab for cash.

Hmm...someones living on fantasy island, and it ain't me.

[calimary]

67. Maybe Kingshakabobo did not talk to him, but I did.

I have talked to him before. I have interviewed him before. In a group and one-on-one. I have read his stuff - books, newspaper columns, interviews, and web stuff. I've seen his stuff (films, TV projects, interviews, on-air panel discussions and speeches). I've observed a consistent track-record over a number of years (maybe a dozen years or so by now) that leads me to conclude his motives are quite genuine.

I guess cynics, evidently, love and cling to their cynicism above all...

[bobbobbins]

73. lets see how that interview went

you: hey michael, are you just doing this to make money now?
michael: nope
you: good enough for me!

[calimary]

80. Sounds like you went to the Pox "news" channel school of

broadcast journalism. Frankly, that's the kind of questioning we already have from too many of our media types. And, by the way, his answers tend to be a LOT longer than "nope."

[bobbobbins]

85. yeah, mines a summary

Its not what a man says but what he does that shows his true intent...you should know, just look at bush.

[calimary]

95. I have done that also, although I have not talked to bush.

Please refer to post 67. "It's not what a man says but what he does that shows his true intent" - correct. You just underscored my point.

[bobbobbins]

98. need i point out again the blatant whoring of 2 books

[RetroLounge]

128. OMG! He released two books????

Pisses off people who can't read I guess.

RL

[calimary]

136. Guess you missed post 94.

As ann coulter once said to Katie Couric - "obviously we're not going to resolve this."

Oh well... thanks for helping to keep this thread kicked, anyway. Might mean more votes for "Fahrenheit 911."

[bobbobbins]

137. Oh, he donates stuff....whoopty-freakin-dooo

lets see...someone says im an opportunist, hmm, how do i counteract it, I know! i'll donate stuff...and then some of the people might have thought i was a money grabbing whore will go buy it cuz I'll have proven that theory wrong!

[H2O Man]

49. Are you seriously

going to say that ONLY democrats watched F 9-11? Because that is a very weak argument for republicans to make. Local and national media had coverage of people coming out and saying things like, "This movie has made me re-think my support of this war." Why do you take the stance that the American public is too stupid to make decisions about Moore's works, and that you and the republicans should shield the public from Moore's works?

[bobbobbins]

56. are you even following the posts?

its not f9-11 thats the problem...its all the merchandising afterwards...the 2 books and a dvd right before the election...the making of a sequel to f9-11 when its kinda pointless at this point. Its all just a money grab. And I'm not trying to shield anyone from his work, im just pointing out that hes being driven by greed now.

[calimary]

61. He is not being driven by greed.

I suppose you can think what you will. What I've seen, and what I've heard, and some of which I got from the horse's mouth, lead me to conclude that greed has had nothing to do with it. If he were into greed, he'd be whoring for a second Oscar for Best Documentary, for which he'd have been widely considered a shoo-in. He wanted to get the truth out. And why is that? Because the people we ordinarily depend on as information-brokers have NOT done so.

Perhaps there's such cynicism in your posts because you just can't believe that there's actually somebody out there trying to do something just for the good of it, not strictly for the profit of it. But then again, there are a lot more Halliburtons and Disneys and Enrons than there are Michael Moores. And documentaries aren't where the money is, anyway, in filmmaking. It's in the "Titanics" and "Spider-Mans." He'd be a conventional filmmaker if he was in it for the money, not in the "documentary ghetto" as some have termed it.

[bobbobbins]

63. no, he wanted best film instead of best documentary...

and i believe there are alot of people doing things just for the good of it...and moore might have started out that way, and he still might even want to do good, but he wants to make money more.

[H2O Man]

72. No.

You can twist it in any way that you want. But the truth is that the focus of the thread is getting the film recognized, and you are purposely distorting it to make it sound like the thread is attempting to line Moore's pocket. This in in line with the cheap and tawdry tactics of the republicans. We are interested in supporting the message of 9-11.

[bobbobbins]

75. no, you're distorting me

Listen closely...I'm not saying this thread is trying to line michael moores pockets, im saying michael moore is trying to line michael moores pockets, and this thread, by helping to keep him relevant is indirectly responsible.

[H2O Man]

84. I know that

and that is exactly what I said. You are saying the exact thing that republicans who wish to distract attention from the truths expressed in F 9-11 are saying. You are trying to discredit the message by twisting the intent of this thread, and making the sale of Moore's books an issue. We can see exactly what you are doing here today. You are saying the exact things that Sean Hannity says.

[bobbobbins]

93. oh no, if a republican says it, its guilt by association

maybe they got it right on this one. And I have no issues with the truths in F9-11, just the mans actions after it was made.

[H2O Man]

103. There are many people

in this country who prefer Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity to Michael Moore. Very few of them participate on DU. I support those people's right to buy Coulter and Hannity's books. And I'm not offended when someone prefers Mel Gibson's movies to Michael Moore's. But I will always point out when they try to discredit a movie like F 9-11 by insulting Moore. I try to be fair: you will be glad to know that when people say mean things about Coulter because of her face, I always put the focus on her ideas. If you want to invest in the Coulters, please do. But don't be insulted when I point out that you are using a Coulter-like tactic to attack F 9-11.

[bobbobbins]

108. I never attacked moores ideas, i agree with them

but i also agree with most of the people on the lefts ideas, thats the whole point...there are so many people on the left, why throw your money at the guy whos obviously just trying to profit.

[H2O Man]

120. Oh, sure ....

I think that you make a very convincing case.

[bobbobbins]

122. i can support a mans ideas and not his motives for pushing those ideas

[H2O Man]

125. Right ...

So you can appreciate that I can support your right to not want people to see F 9-11, but that doesn't mean I'm buying what you're saying. And I think people will read your posts and decide for themselves if they buy what you're saying.

[bobbobbins]

133. of course i accept that

but I don't think its fair that people immediately call me a freeper and various other things just because I think a person is exploiting an opportunity.

[H2O Man]

142. No one called you

a freeper that I am aware of. I merely pointed out that the republicans are investing a lot of time and money in a national campaign to twist and distort information about Michael Moore, in a desperate attempt to divert attention from F 9-11. And I've noting that your posts reflect the exact ideas being expressed by people like Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity. And I note that you are interested in investing a lot into your effort to twist and distort this thread.

[calimary]

77. Interesting that you'd keep harping on this, when the people

Michael Moore attempted to expose are the ultimate sinners in the making-money realm.

Frankly, I think I'd LIKE to see a few wealthy, successful truth-tellers at work out there. Perhaps our problems stem from our not having enough of them. The more financial backing Michael Moore can gather, the greater the spread of his message and the debunking he's able to do of the lies our damned media is afraid to touch.

If it's the money part that so bothers you, then I hope Michael Moore makes a fuckin' BUNDLE out of all this. He'll certainly keep getting MY box office and bookstore dollars.

So THERE!

[bobbobbins]

81. you've just proved my point

if theres not enough of them out there...why support michael moore, hes got enough money to keep the message out there...give money to a new person so there are more of them.

[H2O Man]

86. If you prefer

to buy Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity's books, that's cool. But no democrats are going to support that. The truths in Moore's movie F 9-11 are obviously so important that the republicans will resort to the cheapest and most tawdry of tactics to try to discredit him.

[bobbobbins]

88. i think exploiting your audience to make a buck is cheap and tawdry

[H2O Man]

92. As you know ....

this thread isn't about selling anything. Look what happens when someone tries to sell a republican talking point on here. It didn't work.

[bobbobbins]

96. its not about selling anything...

its about showing support for a man whos selling something. And what hes selling I'm done buying. As for it being a republican talking point. Who cares, if its the truth, its the truth, regardless of what side says it

[H2O Man]

106. While you have the right

not to care, most DUers will not support a Coulter-Hannity talking point. Odd you will sdupport them but not Moore. But that's your choice. I think your moral concern with where your money goes is touching. I'm sure you never buy gas or groceries.

[bobbobbins]

109. your logic jumps scare me

as does your tendency to use the coulter hannity names just to try and make me look bad...even a broken clock is right twice a day...and im sorry that most people here won't support a point just because of the source...i'd like to think the people here are smarter than that and regardless of where the idea comes from they form their own thoughts about it. And to liken buying a book or voting for a movie for something, to essentials that someone needs(food and transportation)...its just sick, and a terrible abuse of flawed logic.

[H2O Man]

113. We simply disagree

I think that the public needs to see things like F 9-11. I think it is closely related to what you refer to as "essentials" -- specifically oil. More than a few Americans assume that the war in Iraq had a lot to do with securing that "essential" supply of oil. In fact, Michael Moore's movie hints at that. We simply disagree about what is essential, and what is necessary.

[bobbobbins]

115. the people who haven't seen it yet, most likely aren't going to

and they'll be even less likely to see the sequel, and even less likely to buy a michael moore book, and even less likely than that to buy a book thats the companion to the movie they didn't even see. While getting the message out might be essential, there are plenty of other ways to do it. Most people have already formed their opinions on michael moore, and him releasing new stuff will do nothing more than make him money. Maybe its time to support a new voice that might be a little more far reaching.

[H2O Man]

118. Gosh.

Too bad that DirecTV didn't know this. Because they are playing it now. But don't you watch it: they charge money!!!!

[bobbobbins]

124. don't worry, i won't

and im sure if they took a survey...the people paying for it would all identify themselves as liberal, because hes pandering at this point.

[RetroLounge]

130. cheap and tawdry

never mind, you can deduce my thoughts...

RL

[calimary]

That's why he bailed out of the best documentary category -

because he WANTED somebody else to get the Oscar since he already won that one. He's talked repeatedly and rather glowingly about "Outfoxed," "Supersize Me" and other documentaries that have sprung up and gained a high profile since he began bringing more attention to the documentary field with his own higher-profile work and notoriety, which he says is only a good thing.

His basic premise, as he's said, over and over and over (kinda like some of us are trying to get through to YOU on this) is that - FIRST, it's about the truth. THEN it becomes about the mechanisms of spreading that truth. But first you have to get the truth out there. And if those who are paid more than Michael Moore can ever hope for, from the networks and syndicators and Viacoms and Murdochs of the world, refuse to present the truth, then we're left with the Michael Moores of the world to do so. For him, it's still the truth. Otherwise, why would he be branching out to a film exposing the health care industry? And why would his next book be a compendium of the voices of our troops over in Iraq - whose stories and anguish and struggles are also NOT being presented by our media?

Consider, if you will, the "shock, I tell you, SHOCK" in the media at this moment, over the "uppity" questions some troops put to rumsfeld in Kuwait yesterday. They've been enduring this for months, and in many cases, about three years. What they're saying has provoked expressions of shock and in some cases also doubt, cynicism and denial from our news anchors (I saw the lovely paula zahn on it yesterday evening and had to work very hard to keep from throwing up).

WE here, and elsewhere mainly on the internet, knew this stuff long ago. We've seen other coverage, from other sources, a lot of it overseas, from the likes of the folks at the UK Guardian, the BBC, Robert Fisk, Joe Conason, Wayne Madsen, Greg Palast, David Hackworth, the Military Families Speak Out site, and Christiane Amanpour - funny, you don't see HER in any high-profile position anymore, and she used to be on CNN, from the foreign desk, ALL THE TIME (until she started questioning a few things). But to everyone else, this is coming as some sort of pathetic lightning strike that they never even dreamed was going on. Because it was all flowers and sweets and "we've turned the corner" and "we've broken the backs of the insurgency" from our highly-paid, fawning stenographer media simply rewriting all those nice White House-issued press releases.

Michael Moore has received thousands of emails from soldiers in the field, who tell MUCH different stories than the public is getting on the nightly news, and who complain about this very fact - that the public isn't getting this on the nightly news. And yes, he's putting out a book on that. Yes, HORRORS, it's liable to make some money. How dreadful, 'eh? Burn him in hell then, 'eh? Kill the messenger, yet again, why don'tcha? You're certainly not alone.

And thanks for kicking the thread, 'eh?

[H2O Man]

62. Yes.

I followed the posts and see that you are trying to discredit Michael Moore by whatever means you think will work. I note that the original post did not ask anyone to buy his products. It asked for a vote of support for the movie. But you resort to bringing something that is absolutely not an issue in, in an attempt to smear Moore. It is very important to the republican party to attempt to discredit Moore at this time.

[bobbobbins]

68. Um...No?

Just because hes on my side doesn't mean I have to agree with him or support him. I think hes out to make money at this point, and i choose not to support someone who puts making money ahead of the cause he uses to make that money. I'm not discrediting him either, and im not using whatever means...I've said that hes factual, and the only thing i've said about him is that hes using the cause to line his pockets. Thats his main priority

[H2O Man]

79. Please don't support his movie

if you do not believe that it speaks the truth about the Bush invasion of Iraq. There are many Americans who believe Bush, and rather than consider what the movie is about, resort to the cheap tactics you have in trying to focus attention on what profit Moore might make off his books. You have identified yourself as being connected to this mindset. But don't expect support from democrats.

[bobbobbins]

87. I am a democrat

I just think michael moore is using this issue more to make money than further the cause, and I am against that. You seem to be of the mindset that everyone on your side is right, and anyone who says something that goes against it must be a bad guy

[H2O Man]

97. Not at all.

You didn't seem interested in discussing what you find so scarey about Americans watching F 9-11. Instead, you focused on Moore selling books. The point of this thread was to support F 9-11, without spending a penny. Not a penny. You, however, tried to twist this thread to attack Moore as a person.

[bobbobbins]

101. You are the one twisting what im saying...listen good!

Michael Moore is a profiteer...and indirectly(maybe thats the part t hat gets you hung up, because you have to stretch your mind a bit), by supporting him any longer...be it financially or not...you're putting him in a position to continue is profiteering...i agree with his message, just not his intentions.

[H2O Man]

116. There you go again ....

I'm hoping that little Reagan line will make you feel better. Anyhow, no one wants you to buy any Michael Moore book or watch any of his films. Even though you agree with them, you are offended that he makes money. That's really admirable. But democrats will continue to enjoy his works.

[bobbobbins]

121. im not offended that he makes money

I don't expect him not to make money, but i also don't expect him to take advantage of my liberal good nature and expect me to keep buying his crap when its obvious hes not doing it to further the message anymore, but just make money.

[H2O Man]

143. I admire the fact

that you are willing to spend so much of your own time in an effort to divert attention from what many believe is the most important film in a decade, by trying to insult Michael Moore. I had been thinking about asking if you ever have worked for money, because you clearly are offended by Moore's works and his ability to make money. But I assume that this effort on your part is volunteer work, so to speak.

[OneTwentyoNine]

140. Wow,I can't imagine what "a book a month Hannity" does for you..

Look,the DVD was announced in what.. August as a late Sept or Oct release?? So FUCKING WHAT?? Did Moore make you or ANYONE purchase anything of his? Don't buy the DVD,don't buy his books,don't go to another movie of his.

What a lame fucking point your trying to make. If you want to take your fury out on someone making MILLIONS if not BILLIONS off of suffering then whats your take on Bush and his Nazi's??

[H2O Man]

46. Please ....

Why should the media report on Bush? Is that really what republicans want? No coverage? Or do you favor simply having FOX report on Bush?

[wryter2000]

41. And I suppose you've done more for the country that M. Moore?

Yeah, right.

[bobbobbins]

47. nice tactic, i dissent so now i have to rival someones worth

i guess i can never disagree with what anyone whos made some kind of contribution to our society, because hes done more than me. This is getting shameful and i think your use of this childish tactic helps point out the hypocracy on both sides...im sure you've never criticized anything a democratic senator or other big figure from the left, because, well, they've just been in a position to do more than you, so you should just keep your mouth shut...nice, agree or shut up, good philosophy there.

[bobbobbins]

52. its like star wars...

anakin saved everyone when he was a kid...so i guess none of the people should say a damn thing when he becomes darth vader, cuz hes done soooo much for the people already.

[H2O Man]

45. I disagree strongly with you.

I think that the reason the republican forces, in all of their various forms, say nasty things about Michael Moore is that the movie F 9-11 gives an important viewpoint on both 9-11 and the war in Iraq. Further, as people look very closely at the information coming out on the theft of the 2004 election, (re: Madsen articles) it becomes very apparent that Moore's movie exposes the players in the theft. Because of this, all types of republicans will be trying all types of ways to discredit Moore.

[calimary]

57. And I think you're correct, AGAIN, H2O Man.

The bad guys are ALWAYS going to look for every imaginable way they can - to derail what their opponents are trying to do or say. There are many of them, unfortunately, so that means there are lots of ideas being cooked up toward that end.

Witness John McCain lambasting the movie after Moore stole his thunder at the republi-CONvention, and then had to admit he'd never even seen the movie. His criticism was embarrassing and utterly without merit, especially since he was criticizing something that wasn't even in the movie. But, as he himself put it, he didn't need to see the movie. He already knew what was in it. What a tool. There are MANY like him. They'll say anything so anyone in the lazy, unmotivated, apathetic or short-attention-span mindsets can be influenced, especially when there's so little information, or questioning, or challenging, coming out of our media in the first place. Our media's lapdog-ism is what makes them possible.

If ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, and CBS were doing their jobs, there would be no need, and very little market, for Michael Moore.

[H2O Man]

89. The movie is on

pay-for-view on DirecTV now. So the republicans are trying to do everything they possibly can to distract attention from the truth it tells. They are engaged in a coordinated effort to attack Moore on a personal level. God knows how the republicans are offended by people making money! Why, we see it here today!

[bobbobbins]

102. im not a republican and i think you can see that by reading other posts

sorry to disagree with you, but this is getting just stupid, any form of dissent and all of a sudden im a right wing nut job...yeah...this is exactly what alot of us say about people on the other side, that they're sheep, they can't think for themselves...and here it rears its ugly head, i say something out of the norm, and im branded a traitor.

[H2O Man]

110. I never called you a traitor.

In fact, unlike your attack of F 9-11 by pointing fingers at Moore, I took the focus off you, and noted that what you are saying is in line with the nationally coordinated republican effort to distract attention from F 9-11 by attacking Moore as a person. I don't think that people who support Coulter and Hannity are traitors. I think it's the republicans that use terms like that to describe people who hold different viewpoints. I'm confident that many people who support President Bush's efforts in Iraq are patriotic, honest, and decent people. I just get concerned when a few republicans use cheap tactics to attact the ideas presented in F 9-11.

[bobbobbins]

112. but im not attacking the ideas at all, i like the ideas

but those are ideas shared by everyone here...there doesn't need to be 2 books and a sequel. Its called beating a dead horse.

[H2O Man]

114. Not at all ....

tuirn on the news: there is still a war in Iraq. Despite the reassurances of Rumsfeld, most people on DU simply do not believe the conflict is either going well or over. Hence the need to continue to keep it current in the public's mind. Those who are calmed by a deep-held belief that Rumsfeld is telling the truth don't need to read a book by Moore. But many of us are happy to, and eagerly await his newest projects.

[bobbobbins]

117. the election is over

and michael moores movies aren't gonna sway anyone anymore, if you saw the first one, and it didn't change your mind, you're not going to the second one...and if you didn't see the first you're not going to the second...his audience is now just people who already know what the deal is.

[H2O Man]

123. The war isn't ....

and F 9-11 will go a long way in convincing young Americans not to go to Iraq to kill or die for Halliburton. Now, you feel oil is essential, but a lot of people don't think Halliburton's profits are as essential as human life.

[bobbobbins]

129. you're getting so offbase

and making so many guilt by association attacks that you should be embarrassed...while not directly saying it, just for saying michael moore is being greedy, you've managed to link me to Reagan, Hannity, Coulter, and Halliburton. Im a liberal that doesn't like to be taken advantage of, regardless of who's doing it. period.

[H2O Man]

144. No, no .....

I've merely focused attention on your words. You've linked yourself to those characters. They are also morally offended by Moore's making money. And Hannity and Coulter would prefer that young people who are facing a draft never see F 9-11. They would be proud of your efforts.

[One_of_8]

107. I voted for the movie

Farenheit 9/11 deserves to win. It was an amazing film. My personal feelings about Michael Moore are mixed, but not my feelings about F9/11 -- it deserves to win.

[bobbobbins]

111. see...now that i can agree with

if you truely think its the movie that deserves to win because its the best one, then i say vote for it, but if you're just doing it because it supports an agenda, i'd say don't do it. Lets let the merit speak for itself

[secedeeconomically]

139. What planet you living in?

He is exposing the Right for what they are moron. When should he do it when it’s convenient for Bush? Go back home, Rowe is making lunch lol

[ConsAreLiars]

7. As a bonus you can also vote for

Willie Nelson, Jon Stewart and such in other categories.

[calimary]

12. Indeedy! There are lots of curious and intriguing little nuggets in there.

Fun, silly, completely useless, and - well, WE might as well make ourselves heard on this stuff, too.

[fob]

141. Kick for down ballot voting gems!!

[caligirl]

13. Yep, F9/11 is mine. kick

[dissenting crone]

17. F 9/11 deserves a + vote

Can this post be put on the Breaking News section? More DU'ers need to know about the vote before (Monday) when it's almost too late.
Say what you wish about Michael Moore, but he was on target, and, if you watched Bowling for Columbine as well, you wouldn't worry about opportunism, you'd worry about the realities.

[Misunderestimator]

23. Well said.... opportunism vs realities...

Who the hell cares what amount of money Michael Moore makes? He's out there putting himself on the line and telling the truth day after day, movie after movie, book after book... I will always be a fan.

[calimary]

19. Mine too.

Thanks!

[elsur]

16. F-911 wasn't even that good of a documentary

... if you take the emotionalism out of the equation. I much prefered Moore when he was a little more pure. Roger & Me is a good example.

I agree with an earlier poster who tagged him as an opportunist. I'd say he hurt Kerry as much as he helped him.

[calimary]

21. He only hurt Kerry among people whose minds were already closed.

Such as all those who criticized what they'd heard about F-911 (usually from some wrong-winger) without having even seen the movie. Disagree with your premise. It was a GREAT documentary. Documentaries are supposed to be eye-openers. This one was a humdinger.

[Misunderestimator]

24. Why on earth would you take emotionalism out of a DOCUMENTARY?

That's the whole point of most documentaries. And on what basis do you assume that he hurt Kerry as much as helped him?

[elsur]

25. I'll give you the point on the emotionalism to some degree ...

... but the whole thing seemed to be a bit overblown. I think by at least appearing a bit more objective that he could have scored points with more conservative Democrats.

I say he helped Kerry because he was able to energize the base but I'm not sure that's true when I think about it. The Democratic base was highly energized because of Bush to begin with.

He hurt Kerry because he's seen as over the top by a good amount of people who could have voted either way. Granted, the right wing demonized him but he didn't help himself any in that respect. When a good percentage of the country got to see Moore (who they really don't know but know of) sitting next to Carter (who they do know) at the convention there was an association with mainstream Democrats and Michael Moore histrionics. If it swung even 2% or kept some conservative Democrats at home that was huge in this election.

Just my opinion.

[Misunderestimator]

37. That's your interpretation... I haven't seen any stats on how Moore

affected the outcome either way. As for "histrionics" ... that too is a favorite word of republicans to use against anyone they think of as "liberal." Shall we talk about the histrionics of the Bush campaign now?

I VERY much doubt that any conservative Democrats stayed at home specifically because of Michael Moore. You're free to your own version of guesswork.

[elsur]

50. I used the word histrionics to mean ...

... overly dramatic, nothing more. Is there some republican code word manual that I should consult to ensure that I don't offend people? To argue that Moore isn't overly dramatic (most times for effect or publicity) is being dishonest.

I can guarantee you that many conservative Democrats had an issue with Moore and his packaging. I grew up one and continue to be one. I'm from Michigan originally. Michigan should have never been close given the economy and the union influence but it was.

[Misunderestimator]

64. Uh... no... I don't find Moore histrionic in the least...

And I am not being dishonest. I find Pavarotti histrionic... I find W. histronic (with his flight suits and plastic turkeys), but no.... I find Moore to be passionate and compassionate, and artistic enough to appeal through humor even in the least humorous situations. No, histrionic he is not.

Michael Moore is one person, he is an individual, he is his own person and makes his own decisions. To presume that he should fit your ideals of what would best represent the Democratic party is, well... presumptuous. And it's no better than promoting any other method to give up our individualism and even our rights to meet somewhere in the center (which wouldn't even get us close to the current Republican mindset anyway, so why bother).

Michael Moore... :yourock:

[elsur]

74. Fair enough ...

I disagree with your characterization of Moore but you supported your argument well.

I never intended to argue that the Democratic Party should shun him but I don't think he should be invited in as a flag bearer either.

[Bridget Burke]

31. Where are all you guys coming from?

Could you at least invest in a thesaurus so we don't have to read the same dreary factoids repeated infinitely?

[calimary]

34. Tiresome, isn't it?

They LUV-LUV-LUV their GOP-issued talking points, don't they?

[Bridget Burke]

44. Well, they did finally convince me to complete the silly poll!

Initially, I wouldn't have bothered. But I also got a chance to vote for Jon Stewart & Johnny Depp!

[Misunderestimator]

70. LOL, Me too!

[elsur]

43. I have no idea what the hell ....

you are talking about.

I just posted an opinion that I didn't think Fahrenheit 911 was a very good product and certainly not Moore's best work.

As far as where I came from, I've been here for a good amount of time and started posting recently.

Does having a disagreement on here constitute being a Republican?

[Misunderestimator]

76. Odd... I just searched a FEW recent posts and lookie what I found:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1048637#1048802

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1048583#1048923

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2798273#2799894

Seems you have some "alternative" viewpoint quite consistently around here.

[elsur]

82. Would you like to talk about those three?

Two of them relate directly to my experiences growing up in Michigan and a heavily unionized environment. One of them is just a statement of fact. The other an opinion.

The third deals with the privatization of social security and while I can appreciate the reasons people have apprehension I still think that it's past time that we started looking at the issue.

As a general rule I don't even consider posting unless I've got something to add with a differing viewpoint. Most people are adults and don't need to be patted on the back.

[Misunderestimator]

90. Uh... No I wouldn't like to talk about those three...

but hey... thanks a lot for the invitation.

[calimary]

91. Uh-oh... busted...

"...am just looking for people's views..."

Gotta say I've seen versions of THAT one on many posts that wind up getting jettisoned.

Anyway, thanks for helping to keep this thread kicked! More people will see it. Or is that "MOORE" people will see it?

[elsur]

99. You're welcome

Out of the five choices they give you F-911 may well be the best anyway although I haven't seen "Eternal Sunshine ..."

[Misunderestimator]

100. Haha.... you clever one you...

All sweetness and light... Actually, you should see "Eternal Sunshine"

[RetroLounge]

132. and what would he like on HIS tombstone?

hee hee

RL

[gingergreen]

20. done

I hope it wins

[calimary]

22. Thanks! I do, too.

It would be poetic justice.

[veggiemama]

28. Done! Also voted for Willie Nelson, Jon Stewart and

Ellen DeGeneris! Let's see how the "moral values" propaganda plays out here. I hope Diebold isn't tabulating these votes!

[calimary]

30. True. It's Gallup, I believe.

Glad you weighed in.

[wryter2000]

40. Kick

Done and forwarded to my friends.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Yes, I happily voted for Michael Moore AND Jon Stewart

[HamdenRice]

53. HELP with Moral Dilemma: Is this Cheating???

I just voted for F9/11 as you suggested. I thought this was like American Idol, where multiple volting was allowed so I tried to vote again. The site said I had already voted.

Then I went to Internet Explorer Tool: Internet Options: Delete Cookies

I assumed that the site was keeping track of who voted by using a cookie. Sure enough after delete cookies, I was able to vote for Michael Moore again! And again!

Is this cheating?

[ArkDem]

58. No, but you should send the cookies to Michael.

[rinsd]

104. Yes....

Please vote once only.

[calimary]

126. I think that's how lots of people get around the "only vote once" rules.

I just voted once. It's not like American Idol - or not supposed to be, anyway. Like all those "moralistic" complaints avalanching into the FCC from - as it turns out - ONE single group of "pro-family" Brent Bozell minions...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120804J.shtml

Interesting to see how that works, but my computer savvy is so limited I couldn't do that cookie thing if I wanted to.

[One_of_8]

105. Done, n/t

.

[calimary]

119. Thanks, n/t

[RetroLounge]

134. Convinced by the obvious disruptors onthius thread

to Vote for F911, and as a bonus, John Stewart too!

RL

[calimary]

138. Silver linings, I guess.

At least some good comes out of bad (or maybe "iffy" - in the interest of diplomacy).

Glad you voted! Another one in honor of the naysayers.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

145. You can also vote for Jon Stewart & against Toby Keith if you go further

n/t

[Raenelle]

146. At least I believe this vote will be counted.

[calimary]

147. Yeah, it's not the Diebold company counting.

Nor any republi-CON secretaries of state - not that THEY'D have any ulterior motives, now, would they?

[Lone Pawn]

148. Kicked and nominated!