ATTN: Young DUers! please explain.........

[serryjw]

I'm from the Vietnam generation. Our mantra "Hell no, we won't go!". NO ONE was pro Vietnam , and tried their damnest NOT to go until they were drafted. NO ONE thought it was their Patriotic duty to go and get killed. I work on our (CO)CU campus and i am shocked on how mnay young people (male & female) WANT to go and would volunteer. WTF is going on? There is NOTHING Patriotic about Iraq?

[rwenos]

1. It All Changed in the 80's

I too attended college in the Vietnam era, 1971 to 1975.

But when my brother was in school in 1981, the general attitude was "I drive a Corvette. I'll fight those 'Sand Japs' for oil."

I was selling textbooks on campus in the Pacific NW in the early 1980's. Lots of that kind of graffiti on men's room walls.

[DireStrike]

2. That was before the death of the media

My only guess.

No way in hell I'm going.

[mark414]

3. i say send em all

if they're young and voted for this mess, let them go and fight for it if they love bush so goddamn much

i say this as a fellow young person

[LSdemocrat]

4. Actually younger people in the 1960's and 1970's supported Vietnam more

Actually the older you were, the more likely you were to oppose the war:

On edit: here's the link
http://www.seanet.com/~jimxc/Politics/Mistakes/Vietnam_support.html

Support for War in Vietnam, by Age
Under 30 30-49 Over 49
May 1965 61 59 43
August 1965 76 64 51
November 1965 75 68 57
March 1966 71 63 48
May 1966 62 54 39
September 1966 53 56 39
November 1966 66 55 41
May 1967 60 53 42
July 1967 62 52 37
October 1967 50 50 35
February 1968 51 44 36
March 1968 50 46 35
April 1968 54 44 31
August 1968 45 39 27
October 1968 52 41 26
February 1969 47 43 31
September 1969 36 37 25
January 1970 41 37 25
March 1970 48 41 26
April 1970 43 40 25
January 1971 41 38 20
May 1971 34 30 23

[serryjw]

7. Thanks for the website......

Are young people naive? are they glamorizing war? Do older people understand history better/ Do older people know the government has their own agenda?

[bluestateguy]

5. I actually think some of them would go if they were drafted

You have four categories of students:

On the one hand you have the people who really believe in the cause of preemptive, illegal and immoral wars. They are so loyal to Bush that they will die for him and cheerfully go wherever he tells them to go.

Then there's the chickenhawks. The people who bang the drums for war, until the draft notice comes. Then there will be a sudden discovery of a trick knee or a bad back or a pimple on their ass. Or maybe Dad will just make a few phone calls to his old fraternity brother who is on the draft board so that little Dylan does not have to serve.

Then you have the apathetic people who will simply go because the government says they have to go. They have been conditioned to respect authority their whole lives and defying the government is something they could never conceive of doing.

Then of course you have the people who would never, never, ever go and would either flee to Canada or dare the government to put them in jail.

[ridgerunner]

21. You left out a category

What about the person who realizes that if they don't serve then it may be their younger sibling going instead. Or their best friend. Or favorite cousin. Maybe some people would go simply because they didn't want to see someone they love die in their place.

[Us vs Them]

6. Misplaced sense of belonging.

As a Young DUer whose explanation you so seek, I think I'm somewhat inclined to attempt an answer, however distanced from those individuals I am.

The young Americans so ready and willing to go to war are fighting for a Bully America. These are the young men and women who put value in power rather than diplomacy. These are the generation that grew up calling weakness 'gay' and whose idea of this country resonates so closely with the Bush war mantra of 'Strike now, ask questions later.'

They are in desperate need to feel validated, and don't see an option in the world outside of high school sports. Take a look at the most recent crop of recruitment ads, if you want to get into the minds of the new enlistee. "Iraq, it's like a computer game for your whole body!" "We've been waiting for people like you! Finally, you have a place." etc.

Unfortunately for many of these kids, Iraq will be the first (and possibly last) time they've ever ventured outside of US soil. They are undereducated about the world view, and see America's success or failure as their own. They take personal offense whenever one of 'them feriners' dare to speak against this country, and were probably enraged at the attacks on the World Trade Center.

These are all broad generalisations not entirely applicable to every new recruit, but I would wager some of them hold true to the psychology of the young men and women you've come in contact with. I know it sure fits for the ones I have.

[DustMolecule]

12. And then there is your brother in eye-rack......

....he's never been anywhere outside of Iraq He feels the same need to 'feel validated' - however, in his eyes, his country has been violated by a hostile force! For him, Iraq is not a computer game, Iraq is HIS country. He takes personal offense whenever one of them "feriners" dares to claim his countries resources as his own. He was probably enraged by the shock-n-awe of Bagdad and the looting of its treasures.

This is just a broad generalization, not entirely applicable to every newly recruited Iraqi, but I would wager some of them hold true to the psychology of the young men and women in Iraq....

Misplaced sense of belonging....indeed!!!!.....

[Us vs Them]

17. Good point, but

mainly they just hate our freedom.

[DustMolecule]

20. I hope you're being sarcastic.........

...cause my forehead is gonna need a mighty big bandage due to serious wall-banging if you're not!

[Us vs Them]

27. Sarcastic? What?

Ha, does this help? "Mainly they just hate our freedom."

[Nordic]

14. "were probably enraged at the attacks on the World Trade Center."

uh .... I'd say pretty much everyone was enraged at the attacks on the World Trade Center.

I know I was.

Didn't make me want to go invade Iraq, though. I wanted to kill the people that actually DID it.

[Us vs Them]

18. Scared and shaken, yes.

Enraged, no. Anyone who cares to study 'American Policy' knew it was just a matter of time. Not to sound harsh to anyone particularly affected by the tragedy, but I did expect it to be worse.

[antigone382]

8. My generation has been looking for a some central, righteous cause

Our whole lives a lot of us have felt like the whole world was one big commercial break. There was nothing of substance or value to the world that was presented to us, just a shallow appeal to buy-buy-buy!As a teenager, I remember wishing for some huge conflict, just so I could do something meaningful with my life...yeah, it was immature, but so was I. September 11th happened, and a lot of us saw our chance to prove ourselves. We saw a true, concrete evil, and the chance to be the next "Greatest Generation."

Bush is idolized simply by virtue of his having been in the White House during a crisis. Crisis presidents are "supposed" to be heroes, so a lot of stupid kids look up at that goddamned fake cowboy and conclude that he must therefore be a hero. Some of us have woken up and realized that the real enemies are the ones in power, but a lot of us have not.

[serryjw]

10. Us vs Them & Antigone

You should be proud. You are both wiser than your years...thanks for the insight.

[antigone382]

11. Aww, thanks

:hi:

[bluestateguy]

16. That's not borne out by the election returns

The exit polls (even after they were adjusted) show that 18-29 year olds voted for Kerry 54%-45%, an improvement over Al Gore, and the best age group for the Democrats in the electorate. If those numbers hold, that's good news in future elections.

[antigone382]

23. You're right, and I can't tell you how frustrated I was after the election

When a lot of people were blaming the youth for not voting. But I'm mostly referring to the kids that are supporting Bush and joining the military in spite of the mounting evidence that the war is a sham.

[WindRavenX]

9. Lots of people our age have been brainwashed

And for a lot us, the only way to go to college is to go thru the military...

[mattclearing]

13. No one understands what ground war is like.

Our military, and the media portrayal of it, has taken on a sterile, casualty-free air since the first Gulf War.

Without graphic footage of dead or maimed American kids, without graphic footage of dead or maimed Iraqis, and without a critical look at our foreign policies based in something more than sound bites or carefully worded evasions of the issue, they will never understand what we are doing.

It's like with September 11th...we are so unprepared for our buildings to blow up that we are ready to start World War III when we are attacked, and yet we feel like we can bomb Muslim nations with impunity, and have for the past 13 years.

I get the impression our young people, short of our more crime-prone city neighborhoods, just don't understand what it's like to live in a war zone, or the fact that we constantly force our fellow human beings to do so based on dubious reasoning.

Once they figure out what we really do to people, and the pain we cause, they are going to be pissed off like John Kerry was when he returned from Vietnam.

[The Minus World]

15. I'm sure this doesn't cover all the bases, but...

It has to do with their remarkably narrow perception of their place in the world. Many of my peers are interested only in that which may produce pleasure to themselves; or that which, when faced with two choices, will offer the path of least resistance. Such intellectual sloth has been culturally ingrained in them.

To understand the decisions that many "under-20s" make, one must attempt to understand the cultural circumstances within which those decisions must be made. Take, for example, the illustration that Moore gives in Fahrenheit 9/11, where he examines the behaviour of army recruiters; especially in their tendency to recruit in poorer neighbourhoods:

When individuals are given the dichotomy of, "Either I work 3 part-time jobs to support my family, or I can go and fight for my country and learn some 'valuable skills' in the process," odds are they will choose the latter - all ethical judgments about the war, if they have any, are cast aside in favor of faith in a system greater themselves. The poorer our population becomes, the higher the likelihood that our youth will sign up to contribute their service; the choice (albeit a false one) between being an overtime fry-cook, and being a glorified video-game warrior wiping out raghead terrorists is an easy choice for those who have not taken the initiative, or had the opportunity to inform themselves of the ethical dilemmas facing the U.S. in a geopolitical sense.

The media plays a large role in keeping this system circulating. If they can keep the populace mis-, ill-, or underinformed, they can maintain popular assent for this war; if they cannot maintain popular assent, they will create the illusion of popular assent in the channels of discourse frequented by casual news-observers (not DU, of course - I'm talking about FOX and CNN, where most American adults tend to get their "news").

Glorifying the military is an easy task, considering how many movies, video games, and Tom Clancy novels Americans absorb on a regular basis. If we can entertain generation after generation with flashing lasers and high explosives, we can effectively desensitize them to violence and death, as long as it is directed towards an inhuman, faceless enemy - a number on a scoreboard.

Equating blind, unquestioning duty in the name of one's country with patriotism is an equally simple task, as most Americans don't have the intellectual power or historical insight necessary to distinguish between the two.

[serryjw]

22. WOW! What a great thread.........

You are correct in many of your points. The children of the underclass have little to contribute to our society except to go serve and get killed. What a commentary. None of this Bushit is about patriotism...It's all about Nationalism and the 5000 plus trying to get asylum in Canada know the difference

[The Minus World]

37. Obedience vs. Love for One's Country.

A difficult distinction for some to make, and it leads to death and destruction. It's a concept that should be dragged out into the open, kicking and screaming, and duly dealt with, employing the same zeal our government uses to go after drug addicts.

Thank you for your kind words. Know that I was one of the aforementioned nationalist kids not long ago, and all it took was a little bit of cold water down the shirt for this youngster to realize that his passions were insignificant, comparatively, to the greater problems mankind faces.

This administration has taken overt strides in the direction of expanding the "underclass" as you've put it - creating a system in which public schools are rigged for failure in order to privatize education; the obvious handouts to the richest handful of Americans; the complete absence of decent pay and equitable treatment for the growing base of "working poor" America is facing - it's abhorrent, and none of this is an accident.

However, their methods will eventually backfire, as humanity will categorically refuse to be put into a box of futile consumerism for too long. Humans know when they are being marketed to; our culture has become so profit-driven that it has failed to produce anything of quality for quite some time now, and people are starting to notice. You'll hear it, sitting in a coffee shop, "Everything's reality TV nowadays. And even the comedy shows aren't that funny." We, at DU, tend to be ahead of the curve on things of this nature, and I wouldn't be half surprised if there was a major consumer revolt sometime in the near future.

[Us vs Them]

39. Consumer Revolt

It's perplexing and quite baffling to me to contemplate the Wal-Mart generation. If you've ever spent time in a small, rural town with the unfortunate fate of having a Superstore suck all the life of its Main Street, and replace it with plastic, rollback, vinyl-American-flag culture, you'll see the heart, mind, and soul of the American consumer. Or at least those who have always known life with the convenience of Wal-Mart's everyday low prices. This is a generation based on sales promotion. To prepare one's self for the potential of a consumer revolt is perhaps giving too much credit to an entire generation who buy on price points rather than quality. Would I want nothing more than to transcend this self defeating cycle of buying cheap goods manufactured with cheap labor in 'Growing Nations?' Unfortunately, it's not only too convenient, but part of the cycle that the growing 'Underclass' can't help but contribute to. They have no other choice than to buy cheap when they can barely afford to eat as it is. Were a true consumer revolt to happen, it would only come with options. An alternative. And each day we take a step in the opposite direction, shuttering down our neighbourhoods and buying our culture on rebates and bulk flats.

[serryjw]

40. Try XMAS '04......

the retail sales numbers are not good. Japan & China will stop buying US debt and whom is Corporate America going to sell to if they are either unemployed or UNDER employed?

[DustMolecule]

26. Very good insight! Machevelli would be proud!

That insight can be used for good or evil....thanks for trying to use it for good!

[Nordic]

28. nice post. Yes, destroying the economy is good for Bushco's recruitment

efforts.

[WMliberal]

19. yeah, I've got two former close friends joining the army.

It started out about three years ago when they starting playing with guns and other things that go boom. Now they want to do it for a living. I guess deer weren't good enough live targets.

[Nordic]

29. yeah, never underestimate the effect of BOREDOM on young men

I knew I did a whole lot of crazy shit back when I was i high school and I did it mainly because I was bored out of my mind.

[WMliberal]

33. very true

and JMU and UNC-Greensboro (where they went to college) don't exactly count as much more than 13th-16th grade anyway.

[UpsideDownFlag]

24. the military is much more egrandized now than it was back then.

simple as that.

[DjTj]

25. ...because they're not forcing us...

If they drafted us and said we HAD to go, we would hate it.

But here's the Vietnam generation, telling us we should hate it, so we volunteer.

Classic youthful rebellion...

Tell ME not to sacrifice my life for an unjust war will you? Well I'll show you...

[JI7]

30. it's mostly talk, since the military is having trouble recruiting

not just active military but national guard is having trouble also.

if these people want to go and realy would then we would see evidence of it, but it's just talk.

i think during vietnam there were more people volunteering until later on when people really started to see what a mess it was.

[serryjw]

32. Maybe your right.......

as stated above, 45% young did vote for *. WHY are they NOT volunteering..maybe it is all talk.

[Hamlette]

31. I'm not young but I remember Vietnam a little differently

The war had been going on for some time before anyone paid that much attention. It snuck up on us. It was when the draft came that people started thinking "WTF are we doing there?" I'm sure those who went initially were gung ho, the volunteers.

I wonder if 9/11 was like Pearl Harbor. Both my parents volunteered for military service right after Pearl Harbor. The country had been attacked. Luckily for them, they became the "greatest generation" because WWII was a worthwhile cause.

[Kipepeo]

34. I have friends and family who have signed up

It's for money to pay for college.

No other reason in my immediate experience.

[Hippo_Tron]

35. I'm not sure that they're so willing to go out and fight

My friend basically told me "Yes I'm a chickenhawk". "I don't give a shit that 1000 US Troops got killed for the wrong war, I'm not one of them. Politics is all about self interest and frankly Kerry's economic policies would've raised taxes on my dad's businesses and forced him to pay his employees a higher minimum wage and forced me to pay them a higher minimum wage when I inherit the businesses. I voted for Bush out of self interest, I don't give a shit about how the president benefits other people."

I replied, "Sir, I think that you're a complete asshole, but I MUST commend you on your honesty."

[AnIndependentTexan]

36. I'm a coward I won't go

[Kitsune]

38. Stupidity.

My generation as a collective whole never fails to astound me with the levels of idiocy they are capable of generating. I mean, Limp Bizkit? It makes me weep for the future of the human race.

Then again, I feel the same way about most people, so this may not actually answer your question.