My idiot freeper cousin got me thinking today

[jeter]

I have a cousin in town from MA. He is a total republican. Always has been, always will be. He can not be changed. But he got me thinking as he spoke, and spoke, and spoke.

He loves everything Bush does and hates everything Clinton did.

His whole family are republicans. Even more so than him. But he was telling me how some people in the family were coming to disagree with Bush and his foreign policies. His older brother voted for Bush. But he is now kind of down on Bush saying, "we (the US) shouldn't be the world's policemen."

I've given up all hope in trying to sway these people. But if there are cracks among these hard-core supporters. Than this must mean that undecideds and independants must be turning from Bush as well.

A second thing I thought of. I asked him when and why he supported the republicans. He told me that at first he supported the Democrats - late 70s/ early 80s. But he thought the Democrats were whimpy and blah blah blah and he started supporting Reagan. He has an ethnic background (as do I) and I realized that this is the heart of the old fabled Reagan-Democrat.

A few days ago I was talking to several old High School friends. They have similar backgrounds. And what struck me was that this same group were all liberal. Same background, different generation (i'm about 15 years younger than my cousin). It occurs to me that a new generation of people were growing up more liberal, whereas those people older than us were conservative (having given up on the Great Society, etc).

Just a weird observation. But I think there is something there.

I believe a new Democratic majority is emerging after all.

[FlaGranny]

1. My son, who is in his early 40s,

frequents a lot of events with younger people. He told me there's no way that young people are becoming more conservative. I'd like to believe him. I hope he's right.

[RobinA]

6. I'm A Boomer

who finds young people VERY much more conservative than they were in my day. But I was in high school and college in the '70's, so maybe no one will be as liberal as we were. WE aren't even has liberal as we were. Although I am.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. when they (or a friend) get drafted

that'll change fast. Idiots. These are the free-lunchers who think life's a breeze.

[morningglory]

8. My right wing religious, camo-wearing, gun-totin'

redneck nephew, who burned up the WWW sending me stupid jokes about Clinton's lies, BJ's etc, sent me this today:
"I'm writing a note to let you know about President
Bush's attack on overtime pay rules and protections.
A lot of people will lose overtime pay when this goes
through in the next couple of months. We need to join
together and speak out in order to stop this. You can
send a letter asking your senators to block these cuts
by clicking on the link below. "

http://www.unionvoice.org/campaign/septovertime?rk=771Ca3M1xp1jW

I love him. He is young, and fairly smart, and I would like to "turn him" to the other side. Is there anything nice I could say to him that would make an impact. I do not want to sound preachy, or say "I told you so". But I would like to say "Now that you are BORN, the republicans don't give a rat's a-- about you and your family. Get the picture?" I believe he can be turned and I do not want to turn him off. Any suggestions?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

10. Tell him Bush was AWOL after rich kid sliming his way into the Guard

Tell him John Kerry actually served his country, has been there, done that, and truly cares about vets.
And then tell him Reagan dealt with terrorists in the 80's, and so forever compromised the war on terror.

[IrateCitizen]

13. Don't try to turn him -- just feed him tidbits of information

And I'm not speaking of "recent history" here, but rather the long arc of history.

Many people who think that unions are too strong or don't support reproductive choice have no idea what it took to get to where they are today. They are under the illusion that things like the 40-hr work week, child labor laws, and the right to organize in the workplace were just always there. They don't realize that people sweated, bled, and even died in order to secure those rights -- and that for that reason, they can never be taken for granted, lest they be taken away.

Your nephew sounds like he's coming around on his own. My advice would be to let him. Of course, it's helpful to feed him tidbits like the one he sent you -- nothing preachy, just some information on what's going on. Avoid the "Dubya was AWOL" stuff -- instead send him an update on how he's cutting veteran's benefits and slashing hazard pay. It sounds like he'll come to his own conclusions on what he finds out.

[w4rma]

19. Let him know exactly who is fighting against the GOP's overtime pay attack

Senate Democrats say they will fight overtime pay changes
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-07-24-senate-overtime_x.htm

Overtime Showdown Looms in Senate (August 1, 2003)
http://www.laborresearch.org/story2.php/313

Let him know who is fighting to deny him overtime pay.

Show him the pattern of the Republican Party economically taking away from him.

[dkamin]

25. Other ways the Bushies are ruining the economy

I think another powerful point that resonates with rational (as opposed to the wild-eyed Freeper bunch) republicans is that our economy is in such dire straits.

you might point out that those tax cuts directly resulted in a variety of negative effects on our economy. States and municipalities have had to cut spending heavily on things like building roads, operating schools, and police. More and more people are losing their jobs, all while the rich are prospering by investing in other countries.

[gratuitous]

9. No, many of them have just been duped

They think that clean air and water, 40 hour work weeks, overtime pay, restraint of some of the more egregious corporate depradations and so many other things just happen naturally. They've been lied to by Republicans, and Democrats have been so reticent to remind folks of their successes for so long that they don't have any idea of how things got to be the way they are.

Roads just maintain themselves, schools educate kids because it's in their nature to do so, your water is potable because of some good fairy that lives in the tap. Republicans have done a stellar job of selling these nostrums, and making folks think that the order and security of society just come about naturally, without any effort on anyone's part. And further, that society would work ever so much better without all that government regulation.

Democrats have fallen down on the job of explaining why your food is safe, or how government regulations make sure that if you're hurt on the job, there's a system in place intended to take care of you. These things don't "just happen," and they don't come free.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. good point, or as David Byrne said: "well, how did I get here?"

The serfs would be in the fields working for the GOP if not for the Dems. Lot of history out there that needs to be known. People gotta turn off American Survivor and read a book. or 2.

[PATRICK]

15. the double trick

works on the human inconsistency of always jumping to the personal good like a great brainstorm whereas the same slow fuse burning to something bad is ignored and all who warn about it rebuffed. The Democrats have been remnoved by lies from offering anything but wearnings people are reluctant to hear.

Breakthrough comes either when they come to the startling conclusion the Democrats have much more to offer them or they are enraged enough to admit they were tricked and they are in danger. If not too late. Inertia
initially favors the fast first action, but resistance is never futile.

[Iris]

14. Robin A - Isn't it possible that

some of the ideas your generation took on, while at the time seemed radical, are a little bit ingrained in we who came after?

Right now the only issue I can think of is the Family & Medical Leave Act. Most people I know who are my age (30something) think nothing of that right to take 3 months off when their children are born. Of course, it's unpaid leave, but they know they can go back to work after 3 months.

FMLA is one thing Bush & Co. would like to get rid of or pare down tremendously. I think if people my age were aware of that, they'd think it was a bad idea.

Same goes for abortion. Most women my age think nothing of being on whatever birth control pill their doctor prescribes. If the religious right gets it's way and certain forms of the pill are outllawed because they considered "abortificants," you can bet there will be a lot of folks raising (un) holy hell. Not many women my age are into having "as many babies as God gives me."

[SoCalDem]

20. It's not so much liberal vs conservative , as it is

just plain old fear.. Our generation (also a boomer) grew up with parents who had just recently witnessed the HUGE victory in WWII, and we felt as if we could do ANYTHING.. Our generation was so huge that everyone catered to us, and we saw no limits..

Our children and those a bit older than them, had a different perspective than we did.. The TV generation has been scared to death.. They are afraid of everything, and are used to looking for someone to blame..

They have no jobs "because of immigration (even though they would NEVER in a million years even WANT the jobs that immigrants work)..

They have no money because of the "entitlement programs that "steal" their tax money (even though they use entitlement programs themselves to go to school or drive on highways or for the care of their elderly relatives)


When I was a kid, if you got hurt it was either your fault or just an accident.. It never occured to us that it would be anything other than those..

The 70's taught us, that we should be afraid of : our cars, our air, our water, our food, each other, and our government..

People who are afraid, do crazy things.. I think we are seeing those fearful people who are suffering from information overload, and cannot process that information.. It's especially troubling, since most of the "information" we get is bogus or so convoluted , that we have no way of knowing which is true and which is false.:(

[dkamin]

23. Liberal and conservative are changing meanings

Many liberals today support things like free trade and NAFTA and balanced budgets, whereas this clearly wasn't the case even not so long ago. I think the main problem with Democratic acquiescence and the "triangulate to find the center" politics the DLC supports is that it results in the center shifting to the right.

I think the main ideological difference soon will be between people who espouse Ayn Rand's doctrine of selfishness and those who believe that a free democratic society cannot be based on selfishness. I think more and more, people are shifting into the GOP and Democratic party based on this dividing line.

[jeter]

30. wrong dkamin

If you look at history, the liberals ALWAYS supported Free Trade. The Conservatives were ALWAYS the protectionists.

[gratuitous]

2. We don't have to win hearts and minds

If your cousin is a die-hard Republican, that's fine. But if you can feed him a little information from time to time and get him disenchanted with Lil George, all the better. Let him grouse about Democrats all he wants, but let's see if we can't snag his vote in 2004. He'll be much happier grousing about a Democrat in the White House, anyway. While he goes to his good job at a good wage while driving on roads that are kept in good repair and breathing clean air.

[kodi]

3. if the implication that tolerant implies liberal you might be right, BUT.

toleration does not necessarily impell one towards actively supporting progressive social policies.

the down side is that people who may be tolerant but are not actively involved in progressive causes are lumped in with those who are opposed to progressive social polices.

the rubric of "your agan' us or wit' us" can also be seen as intolerance by those who wish to left alone and not have goverment actively advocate social policies these folks think are best left to the individual.

of course, this argument is often used by those who are strongly opposed to progressive polices, but one needs to use caution in finger pointing at all who hold such positions.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

4. He's from MA and Republican?

Tell him that he can thank the Democrats in MA for great quality of life, services, consumer and worker protections, and education that he enjoys. It cracks me up when people here are Repukes-believe me, I know many and they tend to be ill-informed.

Italian-Americans tend to be more conservative and Irish-Americans more liberal in Mass, and there is an old Yankee contingent that votes Republican. The fastest growing voting block are the Latinos, and they tend to vote Dem. Hopefully, MA's movement to the right will be thwarted in the next generation.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. Tell him Reagan dealt with terrorists in the 80's

and so forever compromised the war on terror. (hint: arms for hostages)

[imax2268]

12. You know something...

Just last year...an Uncle of mine told my father that because of the money, real estate, stocks...etc...etc...that he has that he should vote Republican to keep his money safe...

Just a few months ago...he has changed his tune and has since stated that he will be voting democrat...he can't believe that he trusted * and voted for him...he said it was the biggest mistake that he ever made...!

Go figure...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

28. Let's see how he made that mistake

AWOL from guard? check
DWI he never divulged? check
spent more of his adult life drunk than sober? check

Bush lies to electorate:
Said he was going to bring a new tone to Washington. nope
Said he was a uniter not a divider. no way!
and on and on etc....

Not sure if uncle was paying attention before but.....?

[AntiCoup2K4]

16. Repuke support of the Fraudministration is splintering.

Buchananite Freeps don't like the world policeman thing.
Fiscal conservatives hate the "big government" and spending, which they consider to be "against Republican principles"
Religious Reich threatening to dump DipShit because he "hasn't done enough to stop the Sodomite Agenda" :eyes:

More power to 'em, as long as it takes votes away from the Chimp. :evilgrin:

[Catholic Sensation]

17. If you want to get young people to vote Democrat

And this is coming from a twenty year old with many friends who suffer voter apathy (but are genuinely liberal) then the Dems need to do a few things:

1. DO NOT nominate someone like Joe Leiberman for anything. This man is for censorship of a lot of things that people my age enjoy (Eminem, violent movies, violent games, etc.).

2. Democrats have to keep up this anti-Bush rhetoric. The Leiberman-esque Democrats won't inspire the more independently minded dems to vote, because they don't see any difference between him and Bush.

3. Whoever is running needs to have an interesting campaign. Attack ads only make the person running look like a baby and stupid. Karl Rove may be able to convince inbred republicans in South Carolina that John McCain has a child out of wedlock, who also is an undisclosed minority, but the left doesn't fall for this. The left needs someone like JFK who will inspire us to vote for him. Now anti-Bush rhetoric and attack ads are not in the same category. In speeches criticize Bush, in ads explain what you would do differently than Bush. Not everyone has to go the Gray-Davis-make-my-opponent-look-worse-than-Hitler route.

If you want the young people to vote for you, the ticket should be Kerry-Dean. Kerry is coming out with great lines about Bush (we need a regime change here, the only person who should be downsized is President Bush) and Dean gets the kids to vote as well.

[morningglory]

21. Thank you, young person.

I weep with joy.

[IrateCitizen]

22. I'd add one more thing to your list, Neo Progressive

4. Put the issues that directly affect them front and center! Like the financing of higher education, which is growing ASTRONOMICALLY right now. And what about the immoral war on drugs, which is brutalizing young people in poorer communities?

In the 2000 election, what were the major issues? Social Security, a prescription benefit for Medicare, etc. NONE of the issues were ones that immediately affect younger people. Then, people like Hillary Clinton have the nerve to complain about the younger generation being "detached" or "uninvolved". Well, Hillary you twit, they MIGHT just get a bit more involved if you were willing to address things that they cared about!

BTW, I'm not exactly a "youngster" (I turned 30 this summer), but it's not so far gone that I can't remember what it was once like.... :sigh:

[dkamin]

26. Agreed

If the Dems manage to pull even a small sliver of non-voters into the mix, they will positively destroy the GOP. The reason the GOP keeps trying to reduce the number of overall voters (see, e.g., Florida 2000) is because they know that there is a pretty significant majority that tends Democrat; it's just that among hardcore voters, the GOP pulls pretty even. Why the DLC and its ilk keep pursuing political strategies that will minimize turnout is beyond me.

I'm 27, so somewhat young, but not as young as Neo Progressive. I think other issues that young people have a strong attachment to are the environment and the economy. And so it's good to keep pressing on these points. But I agree that perhaps the most important thing is to have an interesting and charismatic campaign, and be willing to call a spade a spade. The reason that McCain in 2000 and Dean today enjoy such strong youth support, IMO, is because they were willing to "straight talk". The one thing, I think, that's hurt Kerry the most so far is the fact that he's been unwilling to talk straight. He's too prone to making complicated statements that seem designed to cover his ass, such as his convoluted vote/non-vote on Iraq. I was initially a strong Kerry supporter, until I saw the same thing that I saw out of Daschle; the unwillingness to take on Bush's prevarications, his miserable policies, etc., replaced by the tendency to adopt half measures. I.e. Bush proposes a $10 trillion tax cut, and we cut it down to $4 trillion; Bush proposes war against Germany, and we compromise to war against only East Germany.

I think there are a lot of young liberals like myself who are feeling cowed because the loudest people everywhere we turn are crazy neoconservatives, and there're no major liberals sticking up for us. This is what Dean inspires, this is what Clark inspires. They're willing to take on the shrill voices of the right, and take the heat, and I think that's inspiring to young people.

Btw, I think the best ticket is not Dean/Kerry, it's Dean/Clark. Can you imagine a debate between Cheney and Clark??? Brings a smile to my face.

[Nlighten1]

18. My parents

have said they won't vote for Bush again. That is saying something.

[TheYellowDog]

24. Here's what I think about

the next generation. I've seen polls done that show my generation(people in their late teens and into 20s) as very, very liberal on social issues. I have seen polls saying that 60% of college students support gay marriage, which is a lot bigger percentage than the public as a whole. I don't think that we will ever have to worry about Roe v Wade being overturned if these facts are true. Kids today tend to have a strong libertarian streak. I would look for the current Republican party to be taken over by moderate and liberal Republicans sometime within the next 15 years, as people my age become old enough to run for the House and Senate and eventually for President, and then the only difference between Republicans and Democrats will be on fiscal issues, instead of social ones also. What do you think?

[grasswire]

27. true conservatives.....

...have little to praise Bush for. Quoting Republican Congressman Ron Paul's criticisms of Bush might have more impact than anything else.

There are a million more federal workers under Bush.

The government expansion and authority has been phenomenal under Bush.

The largest government entitlement program ever is coming soon.

The deficit. The nation building. Etc. Etc.

Bush refuses to address most issues important to true conservatives.

[TLM]

29. The tact I find most useful for these folks....

is to point out that Bush is no republican.

He's not. No republican would stand for these levels of deficits. No republican would be this anti-labor. No republican would be this reckless in war policy.

Bush, and his whole family are WAR PROFITEERS.

This is a group of corporate criminals who are using the government and the military to line their own pockets. That's all. From the tax cut for the rich to the sweetheart deals with Halliburton in Iraq.

The whole point of the bush administration is to loot the wealth of this country.

[jeter]

31. I don't think my cousin will ever be converted

That wasn't the point of my post. The point was something that I noticed in some of my friends a week ago and the juxtaposition with my cousin who is 10 to 15 years older.

I agree with the post above that the baby boomers were more liberal -as were their parents because of the Depression, New Deal, WW2.

But something changed in the late 60s and 70s. Fear took over. That fear is going away. I was born in the early 70s and many of my generation and those born after are much more optimistic about the future. More libertarian than socialist. But optimistic nonetheless. They are VERY LIBERAL on social issues. Yet my cousin, who is from the same social class, grew up with both parents, went to the same public schools, etc, etc, etc. is more conservative than me and my friends that work and do our thing just like everyone else.

The point is that the country is changing. The fear perpetrated and taken for granted by Nixon, Reagan and Bush is no longer there. Or going away.

P.S. My cousin also lost his job in December and has had a lot of trouble finding a new one.

I wonder if he sees the connection? I doubt it. But I'm not going to try to convince him. He is incouragable (sp??). This is the fatal flaw of the DLC strategy. Their whole strategy is to convince people like my cousin who once was a democrat but became a republican to once again vote democrat. The problem is that HE WON'T VOTE DEMOCRAT. What we should be doing is encouraging young people to support us. Those that are libertarian and have spent a lifetime being told that Democrats are assholes. They agree with us.

Build a new Democratic coalition. Do you see?

P.S.S. There were always young republicans, even in the 1960s. People act as if all young people were liberal back then. Not true. Many of the neocons began their careers and political contacts back during their college days in the 1960s. They just weren't at the rallies.

[Clark Can WIN]

32. Just the kind of family Clark can pick up

along with millions more like them. He (your freeper cousin) supported Democratic policies but switched to rethuglicans because they made him feel all warm and safe inside, he thinks Democrats are "wimpy".

Even though Wesley Clarks positions on the issues are actually to the LEFT of most of the candidates currently up for consideration but he would represent a safe place for them to lay their vote.

[jeter]

33. I think Clark would be stronger

But he should start making domestic speeches. He needs advisors that are Domestic-based. On the issues, I agree, he is on the left of most of our candidates - including Dean in some respects.