I'm getting really damn sick of "liberals won't let us have Christmas"

[TheFarseer]

I don't want to hear one more thing about how we can't say "Merry Christmas" we have to say "Season's Greetings" or how we can't have a nativity scene or else we will get sued. Republicans are being over the top on this for the sake of throwing the party red meat, but some liberals have to live and let live if you ask me. Suing a city over a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn is just silly and egging them on so cut it out! If it makes some people happy to have "Christmasey" things, then just let it go.

[Eric J in MN]

1. I disagree. The courts should be secular.

Put a nativity scene on your own lawn, not in front of a court.

[Cobalt Violet]

5. Hey how about putting the nativity scene on the church lawn.

:think:

[blondeatlast]

70. What a NOVEL idea! Why hasn't anyone thought of that?!

Why, it's perfect, and could even start a trend!

[TheFarseer]

7. I never said it was appropriate

I said let it go. I think some of them just do it to "get our goat" and it works.

[InvisibleBallots]

20. choose our battles?

I can't even imagine such a thing

[Lone Pawn]

62. We don't choose battles!

We fight everything tooth and nail! We charge after every bait laid before us...and we have no idea how that dastardly Rove keeps beating us.

[juliagoolia]

102. win the battle lose the war!

Pick them... I am for that!

I noticed two of the many many lighted decorations in the court house lawn are angels blowing trumpets. Now I am active in county politics. I can make a big stink about them and lose all the good will I have gained by putting out my American's For Common Sense posters all around town, and my BrandDemocrat posters.

I pick my battle and the battle is get the idiots out of office and worry about angels with horns at a later time.

[bloom]

56. I think it is symbolic of the combination of church and state

for Christians as well as non-Christians and liberal Christians who would rather NOT See the Church take over the government.

It is also symbolic - if it is allowed to stand - of the complete lack of regard for multiculturalism - for that fact that we are not all the same.

It is symbolic of whether the majority is going to insult everyone else.

There are many Christians who do not condone this. There are many Christians who do not believe in displaying "Christian" symbols in their church, home and esp. on the courthouse lawn. There are Christians who do not celebrate Christmas. They may be in the minority of Christians - but they are also among the insulted and dissed when "CHRISTIANS WHO LIKE TO CRAM THEIR RELIGIOUS CELEBRATIONS DOWN EVERYONE's THROAT" are allowed to do just that.

[0007]

86. .....and then after Xmas the Crucifixion crosses go up in front

of every court house in the red states, 'eh?

[donco6]

2. I don't want my money going to pay that *&(* electric bill

for their stupid lights. Let them put them up on the churches (which, oddly, don't seem to have very many lights up at all here).

[Erika]

3. Why Don't the GOP let the Spirit of Christ live at Xmas

Rather than give expensive presents to the wealthy friends at the cost to our social services, why don't Republicans give health care to all, as Christ most certainly would have done. It would be a true recognition of Christ.

[not systems]

4. baloney

Putting a model of the "birth of Jesus" on government
property is a violation of my rights not to fund other
peoples religion with my tax dollars.

If it makes people happy so what?

How about I build a model of black mass on the same plot? Watch
the tables turn and people embrace separation of church and state.

If this strikes you as ridiculous, you might be a bigot.

[Lilith Velkor]

81. strikes me as ridiculous

A black mass scene would be totally appropriate, especially here in DC.

How am I a bigot?

[not systems]

96. I doubt you are.

I was talking about some others who might not
be ready for religious pluralism manifest.

[Johnny Noshoes]

6. They have

the White House, Congress, the courts, the media and they're STILL whiny pains in the ass. I agree with you about letting it go - I mean really why give the whiny little sob's anything more to bitch about. :argh:

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely,the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
-- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

[OutsourceBush]

8. Unfortunately

the people who do that crap, are just doing it to shove it in our faces. I don't see it as so innocent. If it was innocent I would agree, but I don't see it that way.

[Calvinist Basset]

9. Secular or All-Inclusive Displays Would Be Best (IMHO)

Our government was not established to be anti-religious. But it was formed to be supportive of a society in which all religious perspectives--even anti-religious perspectives--could thrive as long as people choose to hold them.

So, it seems the court lawn and other "public" spaces ought to remain bare or allow for symbols of various religions along with the creche scene. In the latter case, "Merry Christmas" could be an appropriate greeting in official documents and such--as long as folks knew that other greetings may be reciprocated (like "Have a Blessed Kwanzaa Celebration!"). But the former would just be easier to handle.

I'm a very "religious" person of faith. But, frankly, it doesn't bother me that Christmas things don't show up in government buildings. After all, those who declare that they have a right to display Christmas images in schools, etc. would have a fit if they lived in Iraq or some other country where Islam is the faith of the majority and had to encounter Muslim images in public spaces.

[TheFarseer]

14. That might work

We'll put up Christmas stuff if some private person will buy it for the courthouse, and if someone buys Kwanza stuff or Hannakah(sp?) stuff, we'll put that up too. I agree the purpose of government is not to supress religion, it is to be supportive and tolerant of all religions. That's a good point.

[tx_dem41]

36. If I buy Islamic and Rastafarian stuff to put up at the appropriate times.

....then you wouldn't mind the courthouse displaying that as well I assume.

Oh, how about Pagan stuff? Buddhist? Taoist? Shinto? Hindu? Satanic worship?

[Taxloss]

91. No, no, not Chrismukkwanzaa! No!

Why not just let the churches do what they like and decorate the town with simple greenery and white lights. No iconography or rubbish like that. You see any Tableaux in "It's a Wonderful Life"? Just lighting and greenery to make the town feel special and different.

[Sporadicus]

10. The RR is Pushing the Line of Separation; We've Got to Push Back

We can't relent and let them have their way with the crèche on the courthouse lawn. We must challenge every effort to cram their brand of religion down our collective throat, whether it's a crèche or a Ten Commandments monument. If these things are allowed, I want to see a statue of Vishnu as well, along with one of the Buddha, and while we're at it, I want a Wiccan mobile in the courthouse rotunda and murals depicting African animist deities. If government buildings are to be turned into religious showcases, they've got to include all the world religions, major & minor.

[Bridget Burke]

11. Don't swallow that old & fetid spam.....

You'll get sick.

"Christmas Under Attack" is the latest version of the ever-popular "Christianity Under Attack". What anti-Christmas lawsuits have really been in the news lately? None. But there've been letters to the editor (using suspiciously similar phrases) & junk all over the internet (US, UK & Australia).

This one popped up after a quick Google: The holiday known as Christmas, which most of us love and celebrate, is under attack by groups like the ACLU and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. These groups have been attacking Christmas for ages, and each year they get more and more ridiculous and frivolous.

http://dailybeacon.utk.edu/article.php/13098

Actually, the ACLU/Charter School story mentioned in the article is mentioned elsewhere on the web. But no real "news" site came up--mostly places like Stormfront. The quality of the people flogging this story makes one wonder.

Last night, two streets in my neighborhood were closed down by the City of Houston so people could wander around & look at the Christmas lights. Lots of lights, lots of music, lots of people having fun. Some religious themes, most more pagan--getting back to the roots of the holiday. Christmas is alive & well. So are Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Yule, Solstice & the New Year Holiday.

What would the modern "defenders" of Christmas do if they realized the truth about the Christian Reconstructionist gang--the real moving force behind the politicization of Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity? The Recons want the USA remade into their own ultra-Calvinist vision of the Old Testament. And they regard Christmas as an evil Popish/Pagan celebration that should be abolished.

[TheFarseer]

15. Yeah, I haven't heard of many lawsuits etc this year

Last year seemed pretty bad for it and talk radio is still screaming about it. I just don't see what the problem with lights etc is. Nativity on the courthouse lawn might be over the top, but who cares? It's not hurting anyone. They all say they wouldn't care if someone put up a Kwanza display in front of the courthouse so why not buy one for the city and test them?

[donheld]

51. Farseer you need to be in Denver this year

it's been endless. Mayor Hickenlooper suggested not putting up a "merry christmas" sign, but instead put up "happy holidays" on the city & county building. The fundies went balistic.

[GiovanniC]

53. Put Satanic Worship Symbols There Instead

That is seen by many as a valid religion. So put up some symbols of satanism and see how fast those fundies go nuts. If this was truly about equal rights for all I wouldn't have a problem, but this isn't about that.

It's about equal rights for them and people sufficiently similar to them, and fuck everyone else.

[jakefrep]

65. What about the attack...

on the true meaning of Christmas by rampant consumerism? That's a bigger threat to "Christmas" than the ACLU.

[itzamirakul]

12. On government buildings...

I would be in favor of some lights and maybe some wreaths and ribbons, etc. But it is not necessary to have the nativity on civic property. The GOP is blaming us, but I noticed that they own all the news outlets, yet tv news hosts are all saying "holiday" instead of Christmas. Now, we libs certainly don't have any control over that!

[gumby]

13. The Nativity scene is a symbol alright.

To the theocrats who will always scream the loudest over the least perceived infraction, the Nativity scene is a mere bludgeon.

Their strategy has already worked when some say, let the babies throwing a fit in the middle of the shopping isle over an imaginary slight have their way in order to achieve quiet.

Theocrats will NEVER be quiet. They got "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency, they got "under God" in the pledge and they got tax money for religious schools for starters. Now, they use their past victories as precedent for their further actions.

When the Nativity is placed in every public place and the Ten Commandments are posted in every secular site, the Theocrats will be screaming for more, more, more and they will add these victories to demonstrate that the United States is in fact a Theocracy.

The call for appeasement about the Nativity is merely a enticement for more of the same. Since perfection is not achievable, the Theocrats will NEVER be satisfied and they will NEVER stop. They will scream and scream and scream throughout eternity.

[SemperEadem]

97. they want the right to worship idols

which, by the way, is against their religion.

[Hippo_Tron]

16. I agree to some extent and disagree to some extent

Scenes of the birth of Jesus on government property are completely inappropriate. A holiday tree of some sort is less objectionable.

[Nordic]

17. where do you live?

I have absolutely no sense of what you're talking about where I live.

[TheFarseer]

19. I lived in Nebraska and it was just kind of a joke but here in Texas

some people are really pissed off about it.

[Bridget Burke]

28. I live in Houston too & haven't heard anybody "pissed" about "it"

Where are the news stories? And I don't mean the pre-written screeds distributed to the "Faithful". (No offense to the many fine people of Faith.)

[TheFarseer]

79. It'a all they talk about on talk radio

[Lorien]

126. Hate radio can't exist without, well, something to hate

neither can the GOP. It's an entire movement of "victims"; even though they've won, they're still searching for ways to prove that they are all oppressed by evil "Libruls". They need a reason for outrage, and even though we're being bashed over the head with the "buy,buy,buy" holiday insanity (which they, as pious Xtians, have no trouble with) they still want the state to show that it's on their side.

I've had quite enough of their wails about oppression and rejection of all personal responsibility, thank you!

[Nordic]

42. well it's pure bullshit created by the right-wing

So you should just ignore it.

I mean, isn't it just obvious as all hell?

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

18. Had that same kind of complaint at a business lunch for our office.

We were welcoming a new employee to the company, and one of our fellow employees was talking about this holiday display with Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, and he was complaining about how they "couldn't call the dwarves by their names anymore" and that they were all "different ethnic-types" and it was all because of all that "PC liberal bullshit. Stupid liberals ruin Christmas every year."
He actually said that.
I looked straight at him and said "Pardon me while I roll my eyes at your totally absurd statement. Did you ever think that maybe the images were copyrighted by Disney and the department store didn't get permission to display them?"
He quickly let the subject drop after that.
I'm not going to take their bullshit anymore.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Killarney]

22. FoxNews every night is pushing this. Liberals want to kill Christmas.

They are calling it "Christmas Under Siege."

Now that the election is over, the focus isn't on terra terra terra but secular liberals killing Christmas.

[Shopaholic]

26. And then the other two cable news networks jumped on it because

Fox was all over it. I've seen similar themes being pounded to death on both MSGOP and CNN.

[Sabriel]

39. I suppose the "War on Christmas" was taken? n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

100. Are you serious?

Tell me they didn't lead with a "Christmas Under Siege" Graphic -- because, if they did, I'm moving the fuck out of this country, NOW.

[KnowerOfLogic]

106. The answer is fighting back, NOT rolling over. nt

[RPM]

23. christ - didn't these people ever see the Grinch Cartoon?

(not to equate us with the Grinch, though I rather like being the Grinch)

Christmas is in your heart, yadda yadda yadda; The Who's, with no presents, no wreaths, yadda, yadda, yadda, still sang their song and had their holiday.....

So, if someone doesn't say merry x-mas, have they stolen the holiday? Only if the idiots don't keep it in their hearts....

Oh wait, they have no heart - its not about love and happiness, its about dominion, control and consumerism....

Never mind.

[Walt Starr]

24. Just so long as my Yule Nativity is included

This would have three naked women, one about 18ish, one about 28ish, and the third about 58ish. In the manger would be a baby boy with goat legs, horns, and a goatee beard. In the background would be a shadowy male figure with antlers coming out of his head. He'd be naked too.

[leesa]

25. Fundie Christians are control freaks...never occured to them that OTHER

religions have celebrations at this time of year. Most religious and non-religious people celebrate some sort of winter holiday. What selfish people these are!

[LWolf]

27. Actually, I'm beyond sick of being required to "celebrate" christmas

in my public school.

If I do, then I waste instructional time and exclude those who don't celebrate xmas for whatever reason. If I don't, kids feel cheated, and parents march on the office in outrage. Of course, the fact that admins mandate an evening "holiday program" outside of my contract doesn't help. I've bucked the whole thing, and been burned pretty badly for it.

Why should I have to "celebrate" at work, in a public institution? Why aren't our various celebrations done privately, on our own time, and in our own space? Why must they be public?

Why must I have others' celebrations shoved down my throat in my public profession?

[oldcoot]

50. "Celebrate" = more work

I remember participating in my public elementary school's Christmas program (they did not even bother with the term "holiday")every year. It was mandatory for all children unless they were excused for religious reasons. Since my school was located in a very small, predominately Christian town, we have very few religious minorities. I remember one Jewish student who did not participate and I wonder if it bothered her to be singled out and separated from the rest of the class while the class was practicing for the damn thing (I really did not enjoy participating in the program).

I also suspect that this Christmas program created more work for the teachers. Since the program was in the evening, they all had to give up at least one evening for something that had nothing to do with educating students. I agree that you should not be forced to participate in any religious celebrations.

[LWolf]

95. You got that right.

It's 7:25, and I've been home for 10 minutes. I was out shopping for supplies for the crafts, decorations, etc. we are doing, as well as for supplies for the evening performance, where we will be setting up, serving refreshments, decorating, and cleaning up as well as planning and organizing the evening itself.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

67. what do you then think of

things like Halloween and New Year's? Even Thanksgiving? Do you not wish to 'celebrate' those either? Is it consistent to NOT want Christmas to be 'celebrated' and yet be fine with all the Halloween garbage that goes on in schools? How about Valentine's day? I personally don't like the celebration aspect of any of them...but what about you???

theProdigal

[LWolf]

94. They are a horror.

Don't mistake me; I celebrate some seasonal holidays with my family and friends. I hate the time spent at work. Try spending 6 hours with 32 children in costumes that can't move easily; they are waiting for the "party." Try getting anything accomplished all day. Of course the "party" is at the end of the day; no matter what kind of information goes home...including letters that bluntly state: WE HAVE ALL THE TREATS WE NEED, THANK YOU. PLEASE DO NOT SEND ANY CANDY TO SCHOOL...
the amount of candy passed is incredible. The sugar spikes are not to be believed.

And valentine's day...the frenzy over cheap commercially produced cardboard "valentines" that not one student actually reads, and the inevitable tension, tears, etc. when some kids get more than others, or someone is left out...and the candy, again.

I could go on, but I'd rather not.

I have, in pre NCLB standardized everything days, enjoyed Thanksgiving. I used to garden with my class as part of life science; we'd grow quick, easy stuff and "harvest " it to make salad and soup in the classroom.
Gardening is time intensive, though, and there aren't enough standards I can tweak to be allowed to spend the time it took for that project. We were looking at Thanksgiving as a harvest festival.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

111. i taught in the high school realm for a while

so i don't know about the little ones and the ways that they would react...I just remember days associated with holidays always were a complete waste...you couldn't get anything done because everyone (and I mean teachers and admins, too) had their minds on other things.

I did the garden at Thanksgiving time, though. Nice way to work that in to life sciences! Good idea...i tried to work historical references and origins of holidays into my classes...but that caused an uproar in too many cases so I just gave up on holidays altogether!

theProdigal

[Undercover Owl]

107. I despise the holidays too & I work at an elementary school

The "holidays" volume needs to be turned way down, please.
Schools are notorious in getting kids riled up for whatever holidays are celebrated during "Holiday Break". I personally don't give a fig what "holiday" anybody chooses to celebrate, as long as I don't end up annoyed by all the dumb songs & the 4 months of "festivity".

<whisper> can you imagine the right-wing lurker, reading my post, and praying for me?</whisper>

[LWolf]

112. I find that the volume comes equally

from home and school. I don't know which came first; holidays were recognized in a matter-of-fact way, or not at all, when I was in elementary school.

I do know that attempting to scale back the "big deal" and spend less time and focus on it is guaranteed to get parents storming the office in outrage. Especially if whatever you planned does not include the word "party" and plenty of sugar.

This is amplified exponentially when you are the only teacher trying to scale back.

[quaoar]

29. I fully agree -- just let it go

With all the horrors and outrages committed by the right wing in this country, some people choose this to pick a fight over? Unbelievable!

So what if there is a nativity scene at City Hall. Is it the first step on the slippery slope toward forced conversions?

Is it really more important than a tax code that favors the rich, the dismantling of 30 years of environmental protection legislation, federal judges who belong in the Taliban, the quagmire in Iraq, the stagnant economy, etc. etc.

[Walt Starr]

30. Yes, it is the beginning of the slippery slope

to forced conversion. First you force people to contribute to a religion they find evil and abhorrent, then you force them to stop saying anything openly against the evil and abhorrent religion, then you force them to obey the evil and abhorrent religion.

It is the road to fascist theocracy and I will not stand for it.

[quaoar]

32. From Baby Jesus to Fascism?

Wow. That slope isn't just slippery, it's greased with Crisco.

Forcing you to contribute to evil? I assume you mean the tax dollars that would be spent to power the lights on the nativity display at City Hall. What would that cost? About $20?

Fine. Let local churches take up a collection.

Yes, a strict interpretation of separation of church and state would prohibit nativity scenes at City Hall. It would also prohibit In God We Trust on the currency. Do you want to fight that battle too?

The point I was making and the point being made in the original post, is that you have to pick your fights and this one is a loser. It makes no discernible difference in anyone's life if a nativity scene is or is not on display at City Hall. All fighting about it does is give Ann Coulter the title for another piece of shit book: The Liberals Who Stole Christmas.

[Walt Starr]

33. Yes, your damn right it leads to theocracy

One step at a time, that;'s how the bastards did it in Germany and it's how the bastards are doing it here.

Fuck me spending one thin dime on a fucked up religion I believe to be evil and abhorrent.

[Bridget Burke]

37. What particular current news story are you discussing?

Here in Houston there are no current cases. Lights all over the city, but our city government hasn't been into overt Christianity for years. We're a pretty diverse community.

However, the spam from the "Christianity Under Attack" is full of statements like "we've all heard about..." And the spam is spreading like lice at a daycare center.

[mitchum]

43. "From Baby Jesus to Fascism" IS the gameplan of the bush admn.

[On the Road]

60. A "Slippery Slope" to "Forced Conversion"?

What planet do you live on?

If anything, it's a relic from earlier decades that were not as offended by public displays of religion. Having a nativity scene at the courthouse is a symbol of community during the holidays, a way to foster the "Christmas spirit," which is a good thing regardless of your belief system.

Personally, I'm an atheist. But nativity scenes do not bother me in the least. I like them much better than secular symbols of the holidays, which tend to be shallow and commercial.

A holiday is about family, friends, and community. You can participate in Christmas without believing the whole legend behind it.

[Walt Starr]

68. Fuck the Christmas spirit, it represents an evil religion, IMO

and under the constitution I am both entitled to that belief and entitled to not have to pay for that fucked up belief being spread by my government.

Yes, it is a slippery slope to forced conversion. Damn straight it is!

[On the Road]

78. Well, It's Not a New Phenomenon

Christian symbolism on government property has been around since 1789, and it hasn't resulted in any forced conversions yet. Quite the opposite -- Christianity has less influence today on government than it ever had. The nativity scenes are a relic of another time, they're not in the service of any particular dogma, and as relics go, they're a pretty nice example.

Personally, I would rather be part of a community trying to unify a few weeks under the umbrella of the Christmas spirit. But you're welcome to stand outside.

[Walt Starr]

90. I'll come together with the community on the fourth of July

rather than on some pseudo-religious commercialized piece of shit "holiday" thankyouverymuch.

[On the Road]

98. And People Here Wonder Why There Aren't More Democratic Voters

This is exactly how the party is perceived by millions of red state voters, and they want no part of it.

Religious toleration has become a fundamental value in this country. When I was a child, religious discrimination was an accepted institution. We are 180 degrees from a state church, forced conversion, or a theocracy. And putting a nativity scene on a courthouse lawn does not qualify as any of those. Give up and win, man.

[Walt Starr]

109. Fuck that noise

Religion is the reason I vote Democratic. I do not like Christianity, want nothing to do with it, and refuse to pay for it.

If somebody other than the government pays for the display and the electricity, FINE, so long as I can put my three naked women statues with the goat footed baby (with horns) in the manger and the naked dude with antlers up next to it. Otherwise, your talk of religious tolerance is BULLSHIT!

[The Straight Story]

85. Indeed you are.....and that is the argument they are using with gays

I am both entitled to that belief and entitled to not have to pay for that fucked up belief being spread by my government.

Why should they pay to have anything which mentions 'gay' in school, they pay the taxes and it is against their beliefs.

Fact: It is part of our soceity, so we say it should be taught. Ok

Why should we allow them to have a nativity scene at the center of town in front of city hall?

Fact to them: The majority of tax payers like it, have been doing it many many years and no one was harmed, it is part of their history and not just religion (ie, it is a tradition) and not meant to force anyone to do anything - it is a way to allow the people who shoulder the burden of the city debt to use a common place to display a common thing to them.

Those are the two ways this is painted - paying for any belief system you don't want - bad. But all things are belief systems, from conservatism to liberalism to atheism. NOT wanting to display them is based on a 'belief system' too. So the whole thing becomes circular.

People grew up with it, their parents did, they never intended to harm any only to celebrate something near and dear to them all in the community in a community like way. THAT is what we are up against.

You and others might see it as them wanting a step into world domination of you and your life, they simply see it as a harmless way for the people of their community to enjoy something (oh, and the amendent with church/state - they bring up that it says 'congress' shall make no law - does not say wit about local community)

[Walt Starr]

89. The fourteenth amendment extends the first amendment to the state

and local governments.

Too bad, so sad. Constitutionally, they have no ground to stand upon.

[The Straight Story]

92. Which then goes to:

What does the term "make no law" mean. Did someone make a law to put it there (ie christmas decorations)?

[Walt Starr]

110. It's already set in precedence

Spending government money promoting any religion is making a law establishing it

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yuugal]

108. nah

First you watch idiots hitch their 2000 yr old religion onto the wagon of a soon to be despised political party. Then you sit back and laugh as the religion goes down with the party in a big jumbled mess of failed fascism, social injustice, and class warfare. As an atheist who is hoping the scourge on humanity known as religion will finally become extinct, I couldn't have thought of a better plan for the church to screw itself than to have it be so clearly on the side of the rich and powerful.

Eventually the unwashed masses will equate Jeebus with oppression and that fits my worldview just fine.

[sandnsea]

31. I thought fundies thought Christmas was commercialized

Now they want commercial stuff all over the place??? They need to make up their minds. Maybe if our government put as much energy into actually doing the Lord's work as they do these Christmas displays, we'd have heaven here on earth. Or something.

[thinkingwoman]

82. flip. flop. nt.

[OnionPatch]

34. They just don't get it....

No one is trying to stop their Christmas. Every church in America and every Christian's lawn can have all the nativity stuff they like. (In fact I have a few Christian decorations in my lawn.)

Here's what I think we should do:
Start inserting Buddah statues in the schools and on the courthouse lawns. Put Happy Hannukkah displays EVERYWHERE. Just turn the tables on them and let them see how it feels when someone else's religion is put on the pedestal above their own.

Oh, I forgot THEY are the only REAL Americans.

[jackelope72]

35. The big thing where I live

Is: "Hannukah and Kwanzaa have usurped Christmas; we're not allowed to even say the word Christmas anymore!"

Riiiiight. Because, you know, I am getting soooo tired of seeing all these Kwanzaa displays around everywhere. I'm sick of all the post-Hannukah sales they have advertised, or stores with their signs saying "(this many) Shopping Days till Kwanzaa". I can't even turn on the t.v. anymore without seeing another re-run of "A Charlie Brown Kwanzaa" or "'Twas the Night Before Hannukah".

Yessiree Bob, them Jews and Africans sure have managed to stomp Christmas right into the dust.

:eyes:

[AspenRose]

44. True, dat

Just YESTERDAY I heard a guy at the library say "I don't understand why black people feel the need to celebrate Kwanzaa."

(Just as an aside, not all black people do....and a lot who do also celebrate Christmas, so it's not an either/or.)

Straight from Pat Robertson's playbook.

On edit: I live where you live, Jackalope (NM)

[Beetwasher]

38. Let Me Put A Pentagram On A Court Lawn, And Then We'll Talk

Mmmmkay?

[CornField]

40. Ironically, Christmas isn't under fire from the left --

It has always been and continues to be under fire from corporate America. The more time they spend attacking us, the more ground they lose to the corporations who have made Jesus the Patron Saint of 4th Quarter Profits. (Terminology shamelessly stolen from an NPR essay.)

It used to be that people within a community would gather on Main Street a do a live nativity scene in a park or on a church lawn. Now, such displays have been transformed into the hard plastic, 'made in China' type or, worse yet, our favorite Hollywood personas on the faces of the manger players.

The leadership of the Christian Right has sold out their congregations and have cried foul against the liberal left as if we are culprits. It is time for Christians to remove their blinders and see things as they truly are. It is time for Christians to take back their religion. If they don't stand up soon, everything they hold of value will have disintegrated in the depths of hatred and greed that is their leadership.

Merry Christmas indeed.

[Im_Your_Huckleberry]

41. i agree

the aclu won't destroy christmas but walmart surely will.

[Cats Against Frist]

101. Very Astute, Thank You

They do this all the time. They totally ignore the fact that most of the prurience in society comes from advertising and not "cultural libertines." But why blame capitalism -- it's a "moral system," right? :eyes:

[LynnTheDem]

45. The PILGRIMS outlawed Christmas...Were they "LIBERALS"?

So this coutnry was FOUNDED BY LIBERALS???

An Outlaw Christmas
In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.

The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.

After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution.

Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real3.html

Stupid ignorant rightwingnuts.

[Bridget Burke]

47. Modern-Day Puritans!

Those who regard Christmas as a Popish/Pagan plot are still around. Some are at the heart of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. Here's a venemous little ditty to sing to the tune of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen"

God keep all of you Protestants
From walking in the way;
Of heathens and idolaters
To celebrate this day.
You resurrect this Romish mass
For you have gone astray.
O, I know that it's just a popish ploy,
Popish ploy,
Yes, I know that it's just a popish ploy.

You celebrate the birth of Christ
Though God did not command;
This service of idolatry
Is from an evil hand.
You wed the devil to the Son
When Christ-Mass you demand.
O, I know that it's just a popish ploy,
Popish ploy,
Yes, I know that it's
just a popish ploy.

www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/xmas/xmascar1.htm

The Unitarians have a different version:

God rest you Unitarians, let nothing you dismay.
Remember there's no evidence there was a Christmas day.
When Christ was born just is not known no matter what (they) say.
Glad tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact,
Glad tidings of reason and fact.
There was no star of Bethlehem; there was no angel song;
There could have been no wise men for the journey was too long.
The stories in the bible are historically wrong.
Glad tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact,
Glad tidings of reason and fact.
Much of our Christmas custom comes from Persia and from Greece,
From solstice celebrations of the ancient middle east.
We know our so-called holiday is but a pagan feast -
Glad tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact,
Glad tidings of reason and fact."

The last one is from a lovely sermon, full of warmth & humor:

http://unitarian.ithaca.ny.us/sermons/RSG20031214.html

Puritans are notably deficient in humor.

[Swamp Rat]

63. Mr. Garrison Sings Merry Fucking Christmas!

I heard there is no Christmas,
In the silly Middle East..
No Trees, no Snow, no Santa Claus,
They have Different Religious beliefs..
They Believe in Muhammad,
And not in our Holiday..
And so every December,
I go to the Middle East and say..

Hey there Mr Muslim, Merry Fucking Christmas
Put down that book 'The Koran'
and hear some holiday wishes
Incase you haven't noticed,
it's Jesus's Birthday
So get off you heathen Muslim Ass
And fucking celebrate.

There is no holiday season in india,
i've heard..
They don't hang up their stockings,
and that is just absurd..
They've never read a Christmas Story,
They Don't know what Rudolph is about..
And that's why in December,
I'll go to india and shout..

Hey there Mr Hinduist, Merry Fucking Christmas
Dring some 'nog, and eat some Beef
and pass it to the Missus
Incase you haven't noticed,
It's Jesus's Birthday
So get off your heathen hindu ass,
And fucking celebrate.

Now I heard that in Japan,
Everyone just lives in sin..
They pray to several gods,
And put needles in their skin..
On December twenty-fifth,
all they do is eat a cake..
and that is why i'll go to Japan,
and walk around and say..

Hey there Mr Shintoist, Merry Fucking Christmas
God is gonna kick your ass You infidelic pagan scum.
Incase you haven't noticed,
There's festive things to do
So lets all rejoice for Jesus
and Merry Fucking Christmas to you.

On Christmas Day, I travel round the world and say..
Taoists, Korishnas, Buddists
and all you atheists too..
Merry Fucking Christmas to you.
Thank you, Mr Hat..

edit: HEY! Big Gay Al and Mr. Slave can sing along too!

[Patiod]

55. I am copying this and filing it away

to reply to the stupid span that my aunt and my SIL will inevitably send me about Christmass under attack.

They HATE it when facts get in the way...

[TheFarseer]

83. Who would have thought the pilgrims were liberals

and Abe Lincoln was a godless communist

[MadHound]

46. I'll join you as soon as it is acceptable

To put up a Pagan Winter Solstice display, or a Ramadhan display, or a Satanic display on the courthouse lawn. Anything else is simply favoring one religion over another, ergo violating church/state seperation in a supposedly secular nation.

[Cat Atomic]

48. God forbid we upset the Republicans.

That's the kind of attitude that has put the Democrats in the position they're in. The religious right will ALWAYS scream. You can have them screaming about the removal of their nativity scenes from government property, or you can have them screaming for liberal concentration camps. You draw the line where you like.

[Kber]

120. Damn Skippy Atomic Cat!!

They are just being bullies and, as we all learned on the playground as kids, giving into bullies invites more trouble, not less.

[donheld]

49. If we "cut it out"

we may as well just declare Christianity the state religion. If we don't make them remember the members of other faiths they will not do so. If we allow them to have their nativity scenes will they allow members of the jewish faith to put up a minora, will they allow Buddists to put up a shrine to buddha etc?

[IHeart1993]

52. Ironically,

Virgin Mobile had the right idea:
"It's a holiday for all of us"

[Solly Mack]

54. reich-wingers would whine even if no one attempted to

stand up for the separation of church and state.

It's what they do.

Just because they are getting away with framing the debate by claiming it's a matter of someone taking Christmas from them doesn't mean we have to be spineless and allow them to cloud the issue with their lies.

[bloom]

57. They have to protest that it is right and reasonable

to wrap the government in the nativity so they can claim that Christians are persecuted when anyone inevitably complains.

[blondeatlast]

115. One of the shortest replies, and also one of the most intelligent.

You nailed it, Solly Mack.

[mattacone]

58. Think again my friend

Secularism is something that needs to be embraced and, in recognition of our spotty record in this area, overdone. Such as in the department stores and government endorsed parades referenced below, we need not become lax on these issues. This nations leaders have in a sense disavowedly ignored one of the basic, underlying principles on which this country was founded; Government neutrality in religious disputes (verbatim). Yes, this includes school "holiday" programs. I'm sorry but we need to teach our children about many different cultures. We need to break them out of the "Christian" shell so that their minds can open and acceptance can be reached.

Christianity is something that is embraced by some, a slight majority in this country yet we allow the government to legislate holidays and events that stress this particular belief. The members of the Christian Commitment would have you believe that 90% of the nation celebrates and adheres to the Christian religion. This is entirely false. Anyone who takes the time to read the latest census figures and does the math can see that we are fast becoming a heavily mixed religious "melting pot". We cannot allow our leaders to make such ignorant statements as, "This is a Christian Nation", (Re: John Ashcroft) and "We Christians, as a nation will persevere", (George Bush). We are a secular nation and have always been. Only until now, when acceptance is at an all time high and ignorance at an all time low, have businesses and individuals alike decided to make a much needed change. Don't worry all you conservative's out there, we aren't going to march into your living rooms and steal your dozens of hand guns. We aren't going to throw your daughter to the pedophiles. Liberalism isn't going to invade your sheltered lives.

There is a pervasive conservative slant right now in the U.S. that has spread through ignorance and rhetoric. As a whole, the world around us is much more liberal than ourselves. They are less judgmental, care more about the environment and advocate social justice to the Nth degree. Unfortunately, we are far behind.

I, personally, don't celebrate Christmas in my heart but I do take part in the celebration. It's a great way to let people know I love and care for them. I do this without giving gifts. I think it's sad that people take a holiday that gives so much opportunity to give to people who need it and bastardize it by spending on THEMSELVES!

Matthew

[Beetwasher]

66. Great Post, and WELCOME!

n/t

[bloom]

59. Did you see this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2820497&mesg_id=2820497&page=

I think it's getting out of control. A bunch of nutzos inspired by FOX or their church or whatever.

[Swamp Rat]

61. What about a Baby Mohammad nativity scene?

How about a bunch of Bouncing Baby Buddhas riding sheep into the manger to give Baby Jesus a "Best of Black Sabbath" CD while Witchiepoo breastfeeds him rum and eggnog?

[superconnected]

64. nativites don't belong on court house lawns

and these people attacking all christians under the guise that the right wing takes it too far are no different than the people attacking all muslims for terrorism.

Merry Christmas to all the Bigots on the DU.

We certianly see and hear you slaming peoples religions a lot. Thank your for pointing yourselves out. Please try not to embarass the rest of us democrats too much this year with your intolerance for other religions and your projected HATRED. And may I sugguest you guys get red suits for Christmas? You'd all look good in red.

And since you're engaging in as much bigotry as the other side, maybe you guys should check out free republic - I hear it's great for intolerance for others beliefs. You guys would fit RIGHT IN.

[yankeedem]

71. Where did it say "all Christians"?

Let me know and get back to us, ok?
Noone here hates Christians, we hate people who act "persecuted" because they can't push their religion on us in a public forum.
If you don't meet that qualification, there is really nothing for you to get sanctimonious about.

[Bridget Burke]

75. "Nativites"--do you mean Nativists?

This isn't one of the immigration threads--go elsewhere to discuss racism & xenophobia.

Oh, you meant "Nativities"?

If you'd bothered to read through this thread--or had the ability to comprehend what you'd read--you would understand that we're responding to a campaign undertaken by the Fringe Fundies.

"Christianity is under Attack" has morphed into "Christmas is under Attack". Neither is true. Check this out & get back to us: www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=1333

[yankeedem]

69. Pukes are just test marketing '06 wedge issues

"Unemployment is 15%, I just lost my house, and Bush just sold my daughter into prostitution, but I can't let those godless Massachusetts liberals take away christmas"
-- Random 'red state' voter.


That being said, tell the X-tians to put the creche right on the court house lawn- right next to the Menorah and the Crescent and the .... and the......

[blondeatlast]

117. You are definitely on to something. Once the W.rong agenda

starts exposing its ugly self and people are actually AFFECTED by it, ANY Republican is going to have an extremely uphill battle in '06.

We've got to start figuring out what they are going to use to get out the "completely ignorant" vote in '06.

I think we've uncovered wedge #2 (after gay marriage reprise).

[Behind the Aegis]

72. Line in the sand

Some of the lawsuits about nativity scenes on court house lawns are not silly! We must not let them get hold of public service places like a court. It may seem trivial, but they are only testing limits. Give them an inch, they will take a mile! If they want to reenact the virgin birth on Church grounds..go for it! Funny how I have always seen them bitching about being under attack, but I have NEVER seen a courthouse get sued because they put up a menorah! They are trying to shove their religion down the throats of the people and many of us are gagging on it! Religion and government should be like oil and water!

[Johnny Noshoes]

73. After having read this thread

up to this point, and others like it, I really wonder if serious conflict is inevitable in this country. Maybe if we "go to the mattresses" it'll vent all of the bad blood. Ah who the hell knows anymore.

"The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of KNOWLEDGE. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions."
--The Great Frank Zappa,

[Behind the Aegis]

74. I agree with you

This country is in dire straits! We are really facing some serious battles and I would not be surprised if violence breaks out in several places. I am happy to see, though, that some of us are not willing to sit back and have our rights stripped and religion shoved down our throats!

[Johnny Noshoes]

76. I had enough

of religion shoved at me in Catholic school when I was growing up. Religion is supposed to be a PRIVATE thing and I can't stand it when anybody of ANY belief has to make a big public show of it. I realize that that sort of contradicts what I posted earlier about public displays of xmas oriented stuff. I really do think that when it comes to that sort of thing that we have to choose WHEN to fight it. The holiday season is just bad timing becasue you'll find little sympathy for the cause. You fight displays in public places like that Ten Commandments nonsense in Alabama when you know that reason has a better chance of winning out over sentiment. Try a little experiment sometime and in a conversation with good friends casually mention that you've come to the conclusion that you're an atheist. Just watch the reaction.

"The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of KNOWLEDGE. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions."
--The Great Frank Zappa,

[Malva Zebrina]

77. It has been my observation that the victim mentality, or the martyr

complex, pervades amongst the fundamentalist, literalist Christians.

They have everything the rest of the people have under the law, yet if they are smacked down in the courts,because they are arrogant and obnoxious to many and tromp on the rights of others, which apparently is part of their religion, ie get in the face of any and everybody they choose by any means possible,--they then claim "persecution"

Too bad. Many also feel persecuted by their arrogant in your face witnessing and proselytizing and the funny part to me is that a supposed omnipotent, and omnificient all and everything god, needs the help of arrogantl, faulty and sometimes corrupt, human beings to sell him in this most objectionable way.

People have a right to object to a display of a Bethlehem scene celebrating the birth of the baby Jesus,( which did NOT occur at that time but was altered to make it congruent with the pagan celebrations of the Winter solstice ), being portrayed on public property which they pay for with their taxes.

[Bouncy Ball]

80. Everyone I know that is a repuke

I am fairly YELLING MERRY CHRISTMAS at. Then going into a diatribe about what a Christian I am. Then I tell them that I HOME CHURCH. They know I'm a Democrat.

They don't know WHAT the hell to do about me. I'm enjoying it.

[UdoKier]

84. How many nativity lawsuits have there been?

Seems to be there should be no suits unless the city refuses to let every religion have a display.

Seems like the stories like that are rare, but always blown out of proportion.

[Bridget Burke]

119. There are no current nativity lawsuits in the news...

The articles spread far & wide by the "Christianity/Christmas Under Attack!" crowd generally include a sentence beginning "We've all heard of all those lawsuits...."

[Piperay]

87. Christmas is not under attack

it is bigger than ever and the Happy Holidays thing is because other religions and cultures are now included and that is to include ALL and not exclude anyone.

[Blue Diadem]

88. No one is taking away their Christmas

Last time I looked, people were shopping, houses and stores were decorated as well as many city owned decorations on streets. People have the right to say Merry Christmas as they please except possibly the public employee(retail comes to mind) situation where religious belief of the "wishee" is unknown.

I say to people who get upset about a nativity not being displayed at a government building to go home and put up their own. The government is for all Americans, not just a portion. Choosing one religious symbol to celebrate a holiday is being selective and not respectful to all other beliefs.

Just my two cents and for the record, I decorate my yard with a nativity right along with my life-size Santa and reindeer.

[Sleepysage]

93. It is silly...

That silly, silly Constitution.

[chookie]

99. I am HAPPY to be inclusive!

Your point is a good one.

I have Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, Christian, Orthodox, Buddhist, Hindu friends -- and I party with all of them from Nov to Jan with them with great joy. I embrace and celebrate our so called differences.

I wish it was as simple for everyone as it is to me....

But I do resent and oppose those who seek to impose their world view on me.

Sadly, the aim of the "Can't We Just Call it Christmas?" crowd is authoritarian political domination.

If I am being asked to accept exclusion -- count me out.

That is, in my opinion, what they are demanding from me....

[really annoyed]

103. I Am Too

And I'm not even religious!

My city has a nativity scene between city hall and the library. I always thought that was clever, hehe. But it also has lights and Santa decorations. Something for everybody, in my view.

Religious and/or Christmas decorations never bothered me. There are bigger threats to the First Amendment. These decorations are not forcing religion on me. Besides, I like Christmas lights.

For the sake of peace and good will toward men, I am going to practice tolerance for religion, because I haven't shown much of it here. :-( Get some of that Christmas spirit for the non-religious.

It's funny, because I am very pleasant when I'm not in front of this computer. :D

[xequals]

104. Thomas Jefferson would disagree.

I'm NOT a liberal or a socialist, but a libertarian. And the founding fathers would OPPOSE the theocratic-fascists (as much as they would the socialists and the liberals) even if it's disciples were Joe Average.

I could care less what's convenient or traditional for people; I only care about liberty and American values -- REAL American values like those of our founding fathers who intended for this country to be a secular libertarian democracy.

[KnowerOfLogic]

105. Screw that. Keep your religion to yourself. nt

[JNelson6563]

113. Fundies won't let us have Solstice

And they don't like to hear "Happy Winter Solstice!"

Oh, and if I want to take a stand for my right to be free from religion I will, in spite of fellow Dems telling me I am being silly.

Here's a little saying I like to recall: First they deflower you, then they devour you.

Julie

[Zynx]

114. This is an issue where we simply cannot budge.

This is too fundemental to our nation's collective good. However, the Republicans know they can make us pay a political price for this.

[hollowdweller]

116. Wait till some Wiccan group wants to post the Charge of the Goddess next

to the 10 commandments and see how the people who want to shove their religions down everybodies throats feel about it. Wait till we have an arab majority in this country and see how those who rushed to tear down the wall between church and state feel when their kids are made to wear head scarves.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. to understand some of the fundy sort

you have to see that they think this is already happening, specifically related to the Halloween celebrations. They see it is as a celebration of Pagan and Wiccan beliefs and it scares the hell out of them. Perception is everything here. An animal backed into a corner (as the fundies perceive themselves to be) lash out...and that is what we see.

theProdigal

[bloom]

121. yeah - I think that is funny

Halloween was OK until some found out that others might take paganism seriously.

That is what I think could happen to Christmas, also. Most of it is from pagan celebrations. If they saw pagans taking ownership of evergreens/holly and ivy/gift giving/feasting/santa claus they wouldn't like it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

123. it does kind of smack of hideous hypocrisy

to freak out over halloween and then put up a Christmas Tree. While the symbol has been co-opted for the Christian celebration, the orgins are deeply Pagan. Oh, well, I do know a FEW Christians who do as Christ commanded...

theProdigal

[AndrewJacksonFaction]

122. How would the fundies feel if......

that nativity scene had a black baby Jesus and Mary? They would be up in arms about it. Or even better yet if they were hanging the Star of David over the entrance of the court? Do you think they would be alright with that? I think not.

[bloom]

124. There could bassinets lined up

with Mohammed, Buddha, Bahá'u'lláh... someone representing as many faiths/beliefs/parts of the world as possible.


...but then it would start to look like the Unitarians set it up.

:)

[info being]

127. Better to vandalize it.