Check out the stunning ignorance in my area regarding teacher strikes...

[bbernardini]

http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10116746&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=17782&rfi=6

There's only 9 opinions there now. Sure would be nice if there were more in support of the teachers (hint, hint). :) The ignorance of some of them is stunning, particularly those talking about kids who can't read, when they themselves can barely put together a coherent, correct paragraph. I also liked the one from the guy who suggested following Reagan's ATC example and firing all the teachers, replacing them with new teachers out of college. (I'm all for new teachers...I was one once. But replacing years and years of hard-learned lessons from being out in the field with an entire crew of people with only a semester of student teaching under their belts is complete insanity.)

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. This is appalling

Where to begin? How about the last two replies:

kids can't talk proper English, huh? They also can't write a essay that makes a point. The moron turned "wants" into some sort of twisted posessive, "want's". Then he quickly spirals into a hole of racist hatred.

And then there's the last post, which includes:

Stop whining and do your jobs! I'm sure there are many young teachers who would gladly take your positions if you want to leave. Great job by the W.C. School district. It's about time someone had the guts to stand up to these spoiled unions!

Spoiled unions. Right. This guy will be begging for union membership somewhere, anywhere, in a few short years. That is, he will be if unions are still legal.

I detest these people for their ignorance.

[bbernardini]

2. Indeed...

That racist thing just came out of nowhere. It pains me to think that these people are breeding. :)

[MassDem4Life]

3. I dont understand your ire

The salaries mentioned are MORE THAN FAIR!! An average of $64K for 8 months work? An entry salary of $40K for 8 months work, and a top out of over $80K for eight months work and they are bitching about having to contribute from $1-$15 per paycheck towards their health insurance?

That is more than fair and far less than most in the private sector have to contribute.

BTW, you average that salary out and if they were working a full year and earning that they would be making $97,000 per year, not bad, huh?

What are you complaining about?

[bbernardini]

4. Nice try...

...but wrong. Most teachers work 9-10 hour days, with a 30 minute lunch and prep. I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but the 8-month work year is a myth. Most teachers go from mid-August to mid-June, when you include meetings and classroom preparation. The time off is usually spent taking classes required by the state to retain certification (the expense for which comes out of the teacher's pocket). The rest of summer "vacation" is spent revising lesson plans so classes don't become stagnant.

It takes teachers years and years of experience (and thousands of dollars in classes) to reach the top level of compensation. Unfortunately, due to the lack of respect shown to teachers by administration, students and parents, many teachers burn out before they ever get to this point.

How do I know all this? I'm a teacher, and damn proud of it. I have the most noble, important profession in the world (with the possible exception of doctors), and I feel I should be compensated equally for it. (No, I don't teach in the district in question.) The future is in our hands, yet people would rather see lawyers and cosmetic surgeons make millions, while teachers work 3 or 4 extra part-time jobs to make ends meet. (It's true...my wife and I know some.)

If you have any other myths you would like proven wrong, please let me know. :)

[stopthegop]

5. it's at least partly supply and demand...

I agree teaching is a noble profession. However, it's a task many people can perform (almost all parents do to some extent). Most lawyers and plastic surgeons could be competent teachers...a smaller percentage of teachers could be competent lawyers or surgeons. And while it's not really a necessary function, even fewer in the general population could be NFL quarterbacks or Tom Cruise level actors.

Frequently people are paid high salaries because not many others could do that specific job. I think the general public feels they could teach if they tried...this lowers the compensation the public is willing to provide...similar situation for policemen and other public safety jobs..

[bookman]

9. it's a task many people can perform

I disagree.

[msmcghee]

10. Teaching is a very skilled, difficult job.

Very few can do it at all. Fewer still can do it well.

Anyone who thinks teaching is a simple task that many people can do . . probably never tried it.

[MassDem4Life]

28. no one said it was easy

just that the teacher training currently being provided by ed schools is largely fatuous.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Anybody who thinks "anybody can teach"

has obviously never been a classroom teacher.

When I first started teaching on the college level, I, too, thought that teaching would be easy. It took about one actual day in the classroom to convince me otherwise.

First, of all, have you ever tried to keep a group of twenty to thirty young people from bouncing off the walls, much less getting them to tend to the business of the class? I tell you, with the way so many kids don't learn any manners at home, you feel like a cop sometimes.

Second, while it's possible to BS your way through an hour, you'd better have a pretty detailed lesson plan, at least in your head, or that hour is going to seem awfully long.

Third, if you are conscientious, you're going to give your students assignments, but this means that you have to grade, or at least look over, those assignments.

I had the additional problem of teaching in a subject area for which few textbooks or reference works existed at the time. I spent countless hours per week writing handouts and worksheets.

Then came the end of the term. The students took maybe three or four finals. I graded an average of 150.

The students got a winter and a spring break. So did I--on paper. In reality, I had to spend about a third of each break grading the previous term and another third preparing for the next term.

The long vacations were usually spent doing the research that college faculty are required to do to keep their jobs.

(BTW, isn't the indignation about long vacations just jealousy? Maybe teachers' vacations aren't too long. Have you ever thought that maybe your vacations are too short? Most European countries require employers to give all their workers paid vacations of four to six weeks.)

Oh, yeah, teaching was an "easy" job--compared to what K-12 teachers put up with. I had fewer class preparations than they do, and unlike them, I dealt mostly with the top 1/3 academically.

I have the greatest respect for the people who spend more time with America's children than their own parents do.

[Fescue4u]

18. You are worth the salary you can negotiate.

While its true that not everyone can teach, enough can teach that teachers are not in rare supply.


Tom Cruise is worth $20 million a movie because he couldnt get someone to pay him $20,000,001.

If you can't get people to pay teachers a $100k a year, it because no one is willing to pay that...hence the cold are fact is that their services are not worth $100k a year.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Question: So why do CEOs who drive companies into the ground

get huge salaries and bonuses?

Answer: Because their golfing buddies on the board of directors allow it

[Fescue4u]

21. Exactly...

They negotiate it.

(and is true of call CEOs, not just the bad ones)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. So the teachers are doing just that--negotiating

Only they aren't having to negotiate with their friends from the country club or with a studio head who hopes to make hundreds of millions of dollars off their work, but with a school board that is being pressured by both anti-tax fanatics and the slack-jawed "I don't hold much by book larnin'" types who always seem to emerge whenever public schools are discussed.

[Fescue4u]

24. Oh I agree.

I don't have a problem with the teachers organizing to get more money.

I do think that teachers should not be allowed to strike though. The value of our childrens education outweighs any good that could come out of a strike.

[MassDem4Life]

30. isnt ironic that if parents felt that their kids

were getting a good education they wouldnt be tax cutting fanatics.

They wouldnt begrudge the schools anything, as for many years they didnt.

But when they are constantly paying more and mroe for less and less, they GET PISSED!!!

and rightly so.

[Cheswick2.0]

22. no many people can not teach

it is a specific talent to do it well and it takes training and desire.

So how do you compare teacher's salaries to Doctors who average 3 times as much? What do you think someone with a Masters degree and 30 years experience should be making?

[MassDem4Life]

27. the hallmark of a professional is

1.) They have graduate academic degrees.

2.) they have some arcane knwledge that the layman does not have and needs to pay them for

3.) They work arduous hours at the start of their careers for little money to earn their exalted positions later.

Most teachers have Ed degrees which for the most part are not worth the paper they are written on.

As specialized knowledge, untrained parents in the privacy of their own homes do as well or better on average than public schools teachers, as do uncertified private school teachers.

The hours are not arduous, and the benefits are great.

I would be happy to call public school teachers professionals, and pay them as such. if it was required for them to possess an academic degree in a core subject( math, history, geography, biology, chemistry, english lit., etc.) and then they can take one year post grad, of principles of education. instead of the four vacuous years they currently spend in ed schools.

[MassDem4Life]

26. nice try but wrong

Most public schools have a 180 day school year for students, with 185 days school years for teachers.

convert 185 days into 5 day weeks and you have 8 months. No myth. most public schools have classes for 6 hours a day. Teachers generally work 8 hours a day, however if they have to stay after to coach, or teach band, or cheerleading, they get paid extra, generally, as they do if they work summers.

As for the taking of classes during off time, private workers do the same. and pay for it themselves too. And a lot of union contracts have reimbursement clauses.

Yes you do have a noble calling, yet many of your brethren are giving you a bad rep. As are the teachers colleges today, and the NEA.

[IrateCitizen]

7. You're an ignorant ass

First off, teachers work at least 9 months out of the year. Second, the average day for a teacher is 9-10 hours, when you count in correcting papers, extra help and lesson plans. Thirdly, most of them spend the better part of one day on the weekends completing lesson plans. Fourthly, being in charge of 30 kids for almost the entire day is hard f***ing work!

How do I know all of this? Because both of my parents were teachers, and so is my wife. And I'm working toward becoming one right now. I've seen it first hand, and let me tell you, most teachers earn every fucking penny they make.

In short, take your freeper-babble elsewhere!

[MassDem4Life]

31. hm, and I thoguht vulgarity was not permitted

185 days divide by 5 days per week, and you have 37 weeks

Most teachers in every district, I have had my kids in, work an average of 8 hours a day, some not even that. School is usually in class for only 6 hours.

In NYC by union contract the teachers day can be no longer than 6 hours and 20 minutes.

And the average class size natonwide is 24 kids.

My son has had as many as 26 and as few as 16 in his classes.

and try being nicer next time, I didn't attack you in such a manner.

[gratuitous]

11. Um, MassDem4Life?

It looks like you're pretty new, so I'll say that it's customary on this board to reply to the responses, particularly when you elicit such a strong reaction from so many other posters.

[MassDem4Life]

32. I try to respond to all my replies

I just couldnt find this post again, and I cannot get on here every day, I work alot.

[cmd]

6. New teachers should teach for free the first year! (more)

They don't have any experience.

That's not my opinion, but one of a board member in my former school district. Some people don't have a clue about the value of a teacher.

Hang in there and fight for the insurance. Teachers are some of the last to tow that line. Unions set the standard for everyone. If people want good insurance for themselves, they will stand behind you. Keep the emphasis on insurance, not salary.

I've been on strike. A lot of people believe that you can never recover from a strike. Not so. Do your groundwork and build support in your community. Stay involved with your union and trust your negotiating team.....they know a lot more than they have time to explain to you.

If you have questions or need support, I'll be here to help you out. Just give me a PM.

[Fescue4u]

19. Union set the standard for everyone

I agree.

Unfortunately they also set the limit as well. Good teachers become unable to negotiate the salary they deserve because the union negotiate its for everyone based on average skills.

[cmd]

25. Good teachers negotiate for everyone

There is no way that merit pay will ever work in education. Teachers don't deal with consistent raw materials. A fantastic teacher is never going to get the same progress from a group of low ability students or students in a poverty stricken area as he will from high ability students or students in an area of wealth.

During the years I served on our negotiating team, our team built our contract on fairness for all. Yes, we negotiated for poor teachers. However, those poor teachers only had contracts because the administrators did not do their jobs. Allowing poor teachers to gain tenure is not in the interest of unions. Unfortunately unions are not the one doing evaluations. We set guidelines and expect administrators to carry through on them.

If an administrator can not figure out that a teacher is not worth his salt in three years, tenure kicks in. Don't blame unions for administrations problems.

[MassDem4Life]

34. true, but

the NEA and the AFT make it all but impossible to fire incompetent teachers.

[MassDem4Life]

33. no one should have to work for free

thats not right

[bookman]

8. Stupid Comments

There and here.

The total lack of respect for our teachers is appaling. Most teachers work 10 months. And when they negotiate they're reminded of it and face reductions because of it. I've taught and worked in business and believe me teaching was much tougher. Those who think of them as merely babysitters are truly misguided. Most business types couldn't last a month in the classroom. Good teaching requires talent.

Negotiate with the teachers. The biggest outrage about teachers striking is the parents might actually have to deal with their kids.

I love those who bemoan the time and salary of teachers. You couldn't find them near a classroom --they couldn't handle it.

Of course everyone's an expert on education. We all went to school.

[Nederland]

12. Anyone have any facts?

I'm noticing that numerous posters are claiming to know how many months teachers work and how many hours a day they work. Unfortunately, none of these posters (MassDem4Life, bbernardini, IrateCitizen, bookman) provide any links to back up their opinions. Could someone please put some facts on the table?

Here's what I could find, it seems opinions are mixed:

http://www.educationnext.org/20033/14.html

http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/18/pf/easy_teachers/

http://www.weac.org/News/1998-99/mar99/workday.htm

http://www.nstu.ca/issues/myths/pepff8.html

[bbernardini]

15. There are probably no links...just experience.

I'm a teacher, so I know. I know a lot of teachers from other districts, and their experiences are similar to mine.

As I tell my students...the Internet may tell you J.S. Bach had 47 kids, 43 of which had an extra arm growing out of the middle of their back, the other 4 having club feet. That doesn't mean it's true. :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. That's because we have no national educational system

only thousands of local ones.

[MassDem4Life]

35. My numbers come from

our teachers union contract here

also from Dayton ohio, and NYC, those are the district that I am personally familiar with.

Would not know how or where to find that info online for a link. but if anyone else knows I would appreciate it.

[Klis]

13. :)

:) LOL!

[Klis]

14. Hmph

hehehe

[ComerPerro]

29. I can not post here

Because I am getting way too pissed off by reading this crap.

This is a sensitive issue for me.

However, I saw one remark that really was noteworthy:

" Name: H Wood
Date: Sep, 05 2003
WASHINGTON, Sept. 5 — Despite the civilian unemployment rate sliding down to 6.1 percent in August, the government reported Friday that companies slashed payrolls by 93,000, raising new concerns that the fragile economic recovery could falter. I think the teachers should take what is on the table and be happy they have a job. "

See, this is why rich Republicans celebrate when the economy is in the toilet and the job market is shit. Who needs rights, who needs fair pay? Be happy you have a job, and shut up. These people that endorse such a facist outlook on labor really need to spend a few years in a factory making minimum wage.

[MassDem4Life]

36. WHY is no one responding to the story

in the original post. I am reading all these comments, but no one is dealing with the facts in the story.

I am being castgated for my comments , but they are in response to the story in which the average teacher salary in that district is $64K and the poster thinks that they are right to strike over having to contribute from $1.50 - $15.00 per paycheck to their health insurance.

IS THAT UNFAIR?
I say NO!!