Is Bush really that brilliant????

[whosinpower]

Democracy is a tough sell. It remains to be seen If America can force it down the gullet of a reluctant Iraq, who groans and twists in agony over the occupation.

So...I am going to throw out this possibility to fellow Duers for discussion....

What if Bush was deliberately trying to incite an open rebellion within Iraq? I have to type this carefully...in order to win democracy - the US must lose the war. Black is white, down is up, this is all within the new laws of Bushdom.

In order for Iraq to be TRULLY free, there must rise up a leader there, who can unite his people, throw off the oppressive occupation, and grasp the ring of freedom. Only then, can they rebuild their nation. Only then can they work together to a better future within Iraq. The British model and the American model of how they want the country to be are DISASTERS.

Perhaps, it will require the nation to split into three distinct parts. Maybe that is for the best of everyone living there...and who are we to impose what we think when we really have no clue what life is like there?

So...is Bush that brilliant - to foster a real united Iraq, create an enemy so vile, so rife with corruption, that the nation, who is traditionally split along ethnic and religious veins, will eventually unite, throw off its oppressers and work to a better future.......

[liberal N proud]

1. No, I don't don't think these people are that smart

The only reason we are in Iraq is the OIL.

[Kolesar]

8. and 14 US military bases to guard that oil supply

I think it is all pretty obvious. I will give the originator credit for originality.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

28. bingo

[gingergreen]

2. Berlin split into three parts

and everyone knows what happened there. 1000s died, families separated, a WALL built to divide the city, absolutely nuts.

I think the most important thing now is to finish what is already started. It may take decades to improve but we can not leave it hanging now.

Perhaps it would be better if we lost... but there is no way they would remain a democracy. Authoritarian leaders ALWAYS rise out of chaos. If they won -- the most powerful of the powerful in Iraq would represent.

[whosinpower]

5. Finish what is started?

So - then the US must maintain more patience and outlast the insurgency.....is that it?

I remind you that Afghanistan rebels fought the USSR for over 10 YEARS until they finally left...and the rebels used exactly the same methodology that we are seeing in Iraq.

We have made it far far far far worse than when Saddam was in power, even with his corruption, his evil. So, when Iraqi's finally get power for 24 hours a day, a decent job, regular school, regular medical, adequate clean water....we will proudly state how well we have done...but Iraqi's HAD all that under Saddam.

At the rate we are going, Iraq will be a dirt pile of rubble before we leave......

[gingergreen]

17. I know...

But we're in it now whether we like it or not!!

I didn't want this war, you didn't want this war...

but it's happening!!

We're bombing them to shit and that is why it is our responsibility to make sure that once we're done with our destruction we make every effort possible to re-build.

Hitler rose to power after WWI when Germany was a pile of rubble after that war. Exactly like what is happening in Iraq -- and thus why we MUST rebuild!

Yes, oil and Bush were the determinants of this war. Yes the war was unnecessary, but NOW is where our concern lies.

[clutchcargo]

29. LIVING UNDER TOTAL REPRESSION BY

A DICTATOR WHERE AT ANY TIME THEY CAN COME TAKE YOU OR YOUR CHILDREN IS FAR WORST THAN WHAT THE IRAQI'S ARE UNDERGOING NOW, AT LEAST THERE IS SOME HOPE OF FREEDOM DOWN THE LINE FOR THEM. THE PROBLEM I HAVE IS THAT THERE WAS NO REASON FOR US TO GO THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. NOW, WE HAVE SPENT 200 BILLION AND RISING---JUST THINK WHAT OUR SCHOOLS OR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM COULD DO WITH THAT MONEY FOR OUR CITIZENS. IT IS A NATIONAL TRAGEDY! PLUS THERE IS THE SORROWFUL ISSUE OF ALL THE USELESS DEAD. AT THIS POINT I REALLY DO HOPE THAT BUSH'S PLAN WORKS FOR IRAQ. I WOULD HATE TO THINK THAT ALL THOSE MEN AND WOMEN SOLDIER'S WHO HAVE DIED OR WILL DIE DID SO IN VAIN. WE STILL HAVE NOT RECOVERED FROM THE LOSS OF OVER 50 THOUSAND SOLDIER'S IN VIETNAM---USELESSLY I MIGHT ADD--ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WAS GAINED.

[gingergreen]

33. Agree, can't give up now...

it would be liking creating a deadly car accident, seeing the havoc you caused, and then fleeing the scene (albeit in a much different sense).

(hey but please don't use all caps)

[wildwww2]

43. If we don`t leave it unfinished now. I guaranmotherfuckingtee we will

leave it not finished later. Bu$h and his gang of imbeciles have not taken responsibility for 1 thing that has gone wrong. Since the latrine court installed Bu$h. Foisting blame on Clinton is the only thing they have done well. And decades from now we will be told to find the failure in Iraq behind the Big Dog`s zipper.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[hlthe2b]

3. Your premise hinges on the assumption that Bush truly wants democracy

in Iraq. Given their very cynical dismantling of democratic institutions and ideals in this country, I can not understand why you would believe that.

[whosinpower]

9. Yeah

Your probably right...I was hoping for a more altuistic endgame - but should've known better.

[complain jane]

13. Democracy's a marketing device.

It's like a great product brand name that a really scummy shady company bought up (or acquired in a hostile takeover) and now produces bullshit products (that are fraudulent and should be recalled) under that original brand name that originally once carried positive connotations, was produced with some quality control and was actually the opposite of the product it has now become. The consumer hasn't realized that they are now buying a garbage product that's actually the opposite of what was advertised in the brochure; they're still being suckered in by the positive connotations that simply comes with hearing that good old brand name "Democracy".

How'm I doing so far?

[JaneEyrez]

39. Absolutely brilliant...

The way you nailed something we're all feeling! That the Right uses the word "democracy" like it was toilet paper to wipe their ass and then pretends that it's still the wonderful idea that so many have fought and died for.

When I see those stupid "Support Our Troops" stickers, I think how cynical it is to promote the idea that supporting our troops means putting them in harms' way for the greed of Halliburton and the oil moguls. Yeah, we're trying to promote democracy in Iraq like a pedophile's trying to improve a child's quality of life.

[complain jane]

45. Well that's a perfect analogy, unfortunately: a pedophile

claiming to be performing the altruistic deed of improving a child's quality of life.

Bingo.

[hlthe2b]

41. That about covers it...

[dmkinsey]

44. You rockin'

great analogy

[complain jane]

4. No.

The goal isn't Democracy, it's "Democracy, wink wink".

The goal is to get the region under our control, to impose law and create conditions there that are beneficial to the US interests.

http://www.pnac.us

What you've described would be wonderful should it actually take place the way you described but it won't. In my opinion, anyway.

However I think it would make a nice novel or movie.

[bryant69]

6. In a word, no

I don't think he's smart enough to do that. I mean that might happen, but it's may not work out so well for the United States or the Iraqi people. Didn't Chairman Mao rise to power, in part, because of his resistance to the Japanese invasion of his country?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[mistertrickster]

7. I read an article a while back--can't remember where--that said Bush wants

a big mess in Iraq. That the plan all along was a big mess, along the same lines as "Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia." That is, people will always back their leader in wartime, right or wrong.

Judging from the last election, that plan worked, if it was their plan.

[complain jane]

18. Yes. Yes, yes yes.

The bigger the mess, the longer we have to stay to "help the freedom-loving Iraqi people" and "train security forces".

In other words, occupy (http://www.pnac.us).

[JaneEyrez]

40. Orwellian...

I wish more people understood that we are closer to "1984" than we have ever been... just 20 years later. I'm a former English major so it distresses me to see words becoming so perverted and meaningless. What is it now, the Clean Skies Act, or some BS like that, that rescinds 30 years of hard-fought environmental effort?

[Meme]

10. yeah right...

it is a nice theory. But not for Bush. He doesn´t want democracy. Apparently he doesn´t want it in the USA and he sure as hell doesn´t want it in Iraq. And so what if this theory really was true. Are you brilliant, when you accomplish to unite a nation by killing thousands of people???

[whosinpower]

14. It worked on September 11

Didn't it??? Did it unite America, and most of the world like never before???? And against a common enemy???

Uniting in that every person is in agreement on at least one issue. After September 11 - it was the fight against Al Quaida and Osama Bin Laden.

[Meme]

22. I don´t think ANYONE who murders people

is brilliant! not Al Quaida, not Bin Laden and NOT Bush! Yes: It did unite the world, but Bin Laden and Al Quaida didn´t want to unite the world. Are you kidding me... This thread was about Bush wanting to unite the Iraqi people by being a enemy. And for that he killed thousands of innocent people. You see the difference here? Fighting a war because it could "unite" people. I´ve never heard Osama say: I attacked America because I thought it was time to unite those people. Bush is just as evil as Al Quaida or Bin Laden if you ask me, and they are NOT brilliant, they are just first class murderers!

[leesa]

32. It sure did. Against an enemy we have never proven DID 9-11

9-11 has never been investigated. We have NO IDEA who did 9-11. My guess is that the fascists in the WH did it

[sushi]

11. I believe

that the different groups in Iraq could and might unite in order to throw out the occupying forces but after the invaders are gone, the Iraqis will split again into their normal groups, with the Shiites, being the largest, getting the top jobs.

[Phillycat]

12. I think I speak for the world when I say...no.

He's a f**king moron.

[PATRICK]

15. All that was known before the war

That as with other colonial creations, Iraq had been deliberately cobbled together for the benefit of foreign oil interests and having the people neatly divivded against themselves is so natural to exploitation that anyone trapped in those borders can join in.

No, what we have SEEN from Bushco is nearly absolute disinterest in what happens to Iraq at all. if the UN wants to fiddle around fine. It's all about securing the top and letting everyone else fight blind and poor.

The total disinterest in the Bushco planning for anything remoterly concerning the public welfare anywhere is a hallmark sign of the regime. Any window dressing propaganda to the contrary is enough to make a Pharisee blush. Nor are they concerned with death, defeat, terrorism ortr anything other than the opportunity to get the money, use the toys and grab real estate. As with the mob, once the judiciary and the government is secure, watch out.

If you find this brand of self-willed ignorance and arrogance unbelieveable that is understandable. They control the media, a whining pack of whipped and spoiled dogs who model themselves according to Bush values, somewhere at ground zero of the sin blasted soul.

[clutchcargo]

16. underestimating BUSH

just cost us an election. He is not as stupid as some of our members think nor as smart as the Re pubs think.

[Justitia]

23. underestimated, yes, but not for intelligence

underestimated for his capacity for meanness, vindictiveness and brash bullying w/blinders on to accomplish whatever he wants.

I have grown up here in BushWorld, TX and have seen far too many examples of just how far he (and his family) will go.

Just when you think "nah, he wouldn't do THAT...", I warn you, oh yes he would - and will.

He IS NOT that smart in that he is incredibly shallow and has the attention span of a gnat, therefore he has no capacity for complexity of thought or analysis. You see this manifested all the time in how he speeds through events, barely acknowledging them and is in bed by 8:30 pm each night. Nothing phases him. And he will mow down and steamroll anyone in the way of whatever he wants to do.

He is a perfect reflection of his mother in the meanness department and his father in the shallow department.

Not smart, but unrelentingly rigid, dogmatic, petty and vindictive - a lethal combination.

[ElectroPrincess]

19. You must be kidding me!?!

There's nothing brilliant about destabilizing an entire region of the world. You can not predict the blow back. Most diplomats have the philosophy of medical doctors: "First, do no harm."

Nope, if anything ... and I'm not superstitious, George W. Bush consistently exercises the "reverse Midas touch" to almost every single project he becomes involved with. Trust me, I don't want anymore death and destruction EVEN if it meant GWB was right in his approach to foreign policy.

Unfortunate, all of history and "lessons learned" from my studies in Military Science, suggest that OURS (the USA) is a warmongering NOT a peace promoting type foreign policy.

Yes, I'm very afraid NOT of specific terrorist threats that may or may not materialize, but of the legions of young Middle Eastern people who will "hate the USA" and teach their children to believe the same.

This is NO way for the USA to win the hearts and minds of Middle Eastern people. In fact, thanks to the damage we've done in just the past year, the "hatred and distrust of the USA" type blow back may endure for generations to come.

[gingergreen]

21. Agree completely

it's a sad sight

[ElectroPrincess]

25. Thank you kindly gingergreen ... Welcome to DU ... hope ya enjoy.

[gingergreen]

34. ah shucks... thanx

It's a great site.

[NoSheep]

36. Agreed. Bush and Co. are just a bunch of bumbling fools!

[complain jane]

20. And another thing.

I heard someone saying on Air America the other day in response to statements that everyone around the world wants freedom & democracy, that if you actually do have something everyone else wants you don't have to force it on them at the end of a barrel of a gun; they would already be trying to steal it.

[vetwife]

24. I used to hear

there was a fine line between brillance (genius) and insanity.....kinda hard to tell, he seems to be insane not brilliant but he sure believes all of his lies. That part he is brilliant on !

[rurallib]

26. Hahahahahahahahahaha

Scripted by some some movie scripter maybe. OMG you're really thinking outside the bun. Give me a toke on that thing.
No, its the oil. And when we provoke an incident with Iran, it's the oil.

[whosinpower]

42. Well - thinking outside the bun

Is precisely what I was attempting to do. It DOES sound more than a bit far fetched....but thought to pose it here for discussion. So far, it is quite a lively discussion!

[GeorgeGist]

27. Nope, He's a dim bulb.

But that's all that's needed for folks who prefer to live in the dark.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leesa]

31. He has no interest whatsoever in Iraq being free or democratic.

Get out of fantasyland.

[sam sarrha]

35. he is using it to break the economy and destroy SSI,

[spanone]

37. Yea, he's been playing stupid for 4 years!!! Academy Award to W*

[Norquist Nemesis]

38. Well, one viewpoint from an Iraqi in Baghdad

doesn't appear to be hopeful about "the plan" of Bush et al if that tells you anything.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

<snip>
People are wondering how America and gang (i.e. Iyad Allawi, etc.) are going to implement democracy in all of this chaos when they can't seem to get the gasoline flowing in a country that virtually swims in oil. There's a rumor that this gasoline crisis has been concocted on purpose in order to keep a minimum of cars on the streets. Others claim that this whole situation is a form of collective punishment because things are really out of control in so many areas in Baghdad- especially the suburbs. The third theory is that this being done purposely so that the Iraq government can amazingly bring the electricity, gasoline, kerosene and cooking gas back in January before the elections and make themselves look like heroes.

We're also watching the election lists closely. Most people I've talked to aren't going to go to elections. It's simply too dangerous and there's a sense that nothing is going to be achieved anyway. The lists are more or less composed of people affiliated with the very same political parties whose leaders rode in on American tanks. Then you have a handful of tribal sheikhs. Yes- tribal sheikhs. Our country is going to be led by members of religious parties and tribal sheikhs- can anyone say Afghanistan? What's even more irritating is that election lists have to be checked and confirmed by none other than Sistani!! Sistani- the Iranian religious cleric. So basically, this war helped us make a transition from a secular country being run by a dictator to a chaotic country being run by a group of religious clerics. Now, can anyone say 'theocracy in sheeps clothing'?
<snip>