What to do if there is a National Identity Card?

[gordianot]

I carry my drivers license, Social Security Card, Insurance cards, Credit cards, even ID for movie rentals. At work I have an ID card with me at all times. I do not mind back ground and security checks of any kind. In the 1960's and 70's I kept my draft card safe.

As a student of the 60's and 70's (during the worst of the Cold War) I remember the rhetoric how totalitarian Godless Communist required national identity cards and visas in their own country for travel. We did not have that in America even when there was a (real) threat nuclear war.

I have like everyone here put up with a lot the last four years. If Patriot Act II requires a National Identity Card, I for one will review my options. This is one issue I am close to agreement with a freeper acquaintance.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Burn 'em, like guys did with their draft cards in the '60s.

[gordianot]

3. I did not ever consider doing that to a draft card.

My point this time everyone will get a chance.

[Disturbed]

4. Carrying around SS card...

is not a good idea.

Will someone please explain why a Natl. ID card is a terrible idea.

[gordianot]

6. What happens if you don't have it when someone thinks you should?

[MercutioATC]

11. The same thing that happens now...

No governent-issued photo ID? No plane ride.

No driver's license? Ticket (or worse).

No library card? No books.


We show ID every day. Nobody's talking about martial law, just standardizing government-issued identification.

[gordianot]

14. I'm sorry I don't see it, that is going too far.

Call it a gut illogical reaction. I guess I am a victim of the 60's and 70's rhetoric.

[MercutioATC]

18. I understand, but ID is just ID, when you're required to produce it is

your problem (it seems to me).

That's a separate issue which has nothing to do with a national ID card.

[BattyDem]

8. Papers! We want to see your papers. Show them to us, now!

Why don't they just tattoo numbers on us and be done with it? :mad:

[Richard D]

9. It won't be a tattoo . . .

. . . it'll be a microchip.

[BattyDem]

13. Sad, but true.

The entire population will be Lojacked! :grr:

[Taxloss]

47. Lots of good stuff here:

http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/wwwitter/20041214-papers_displease.html

[Sugarbleus]

30. I was going to suggest the same thing....BURN THEM...

Like the original poster says, I've got a plethora of ID. I don't need any more. Neither does anyone else.

Security checks for special circumstances is fine, but National ID cards for everyone? Fergetabowdit and BITE ME!

What was it they said: 'you'll not be able to buy nor sell without the mark of the beast?' :scared:

contact representatives everyone....swamp them with your prostests....ALL of them! Don't let up and don't back down.

Marching in the streets comes next.....

[MercutioATC]

2. As a federal employee, my options are limited. I'll get one.

Actually, it's no big deal for me. I have a secret security clearance. The government has all of my info. The FBI has a file on me. The FAA can randomly test me for drugs and alcohol.

We're already required to produce ID in many situations. What's the problem with setting a national standard?

[geomon666]

7. Cause we shouldn't have to be subjected to that.

I don't want to have to produce my ID card if I wanna get on a bus or a plane or to apply for a job or to buy groceries or watch a movie or a use a public toilet or whatever. We shouldn't have to. Plain and simple.

[MercutioATC]

10. Who said you would?

Do you have to show a driver's license to use the toilet now?

You WILL have to show it to get on a plane, but we already DO that. What's the issue with standardizing it federally?

[geomon666]

12. I know we show ID now...

and I don't like it. What's the issue? What's to keep them for using for whatever they want, like when we take out books at the library? Oh that's right they already do that, so I guess it's ok.

I understand some professions require security cards but me as a citizen should not have my entire history digitized onto a tiny card for anyone to access.

[gordianot]

16. Thank you, I agree completely.

We need to have some privacy left even if it is an illusion.

[MercutioATC]

17. What's to keep them from asking for ID now?

You're arguing against expanded ID requirements, not a national ID card.

[gordianot]

20. To me a required National ID is an expanded requirement.

It opens the possibility of many potential abuses. I would rather not have to produce it on demand.

[MercutioATC]

21. I would rather not have to produce it "on demand" either.

If it's 1:00 am and you're walking down the street and a cop stops you and wants to see your ID NOW, you produce a driver's license (or state ID, or passport, etc.). In the future, you'd produce a national ID card. There's no difference.

The "right" of the cop to ask for ID from somebody doing nothing wrong is the issue, not the type of ID produced, and he already HAS that right.

Again, they're two separate issues.

[geomon666]

26. Well if we're gonna use that logic...

If I already have a drivers license what do I need with an ID card? If I already have a passport, what do I need with an ID card? What advantage would an ID card have over what we have now other than convenience which I'm sure is the main selling point?

[MercutioATC]

28. Because there would be uniform standards with a national ID card.

I used to forge ID all the time when I was in high school and college. The differences in ID from state to state made it easy because nobody in Ohio knows what a Utah license looks like. WE just used them to buy alcohol, but they could have been used for any number of things.

A chipped national ID card would solve that problem. They'd be standardized and, presumably, extremely difficult to forge.

That's just one of the advantages, but it's the biggest one as far as security is concerned, in my opinion. It doesn't take away any rights that we already have, it just increases the chance that the ID is valid.

[MadHound]

48. A national ID card wouldn't solve the problem friend,

It would just put the Mom and Pop forging operations out of business. The big boys with the hi-tech equipment will still be operating, and will swiftly move in to fill the vacumn when their small time competition is gone.

And then, with the big hi-tech forgers doing the deed, it will be even harder to spot a fake. This is the same thing that is happening with our money. When the Treasury Dept switched over to the new, tougher to fake paper currency, all it did was put the little guy with the color copier and computer out of business. The big boys just upped their sophistication level, and started cranking out more product. The amount of forged cash didn't drop, it just became harder to spot.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. Is that a general right of police in the US?

Or only certain states? I lived there for 18 months, and no-one ever told me I ought to have ID with me (I kept my drivers licence in the car, so I couldn't forget it when I changed my clothes).

[BiggJawn]

19. But they don't have all that on ME.

No security clearance, the FAA can fo guck themselves, AFAIK, the FBI doesn't have a file on me (Hi Agent Mike!)

And I'd really like to keep it that way...

You traded your illusion of anonymity for a GSA rating.
I'd like to hold onto my illusion as long as possible.

[MercutioATC]

25. Yes, I did, but a national ID card wouldn't change anything.

It wouldn't result in an FBI file or drug testing for those woho don't have that requirement now. It would simply be a nationalized version of the ID we all present every day.

[geomon666]

27. That's what they say now...

What's to stop them from changing their minds? You see once you go down this road, it's over. Like the fools saying crap like "I'll give up some freedoms for security." This ID card is just a part of that snowball rolling down over our asses.

[MercutioATC]

29. They can do that WITHOUT the national ID card.

That's my point. They could pass a law tomorrow requiring you to present government-issued ID whenever you enter a public building. You'd have to use a driver's license or passport. No national ID card required.

The issue is with USE, not the card itself and the two issues are separate.

[geomon666]

31. There's already too much info encoded on Driver's License now, IMHO

but that's not the point. The point is the uniformity and the ease with which any info on that card can be accessed or tampered with. Don't give me that stuff that it'll be harder to tamper with, maybe at first but no system is secure. There are always holes. And frankely, I don't want my entire identity manipulated with or scanned over, or researched or whatever the hell it is they do.

[MercutioATC]

32. What "entire identity" are you talking about?

[geomon666]

33. You want a list?

Driving record, police record, financial record, voting record, library record, etc. They can put whatever they want on those damn things and I don't want any part of it.

[MercutioATC]

34. Ever look at the back of a driver's license (or library card)?

See the magnetic strip? Even without the magnetic strip, if that information is already in a computer somewhere (and it is) the government already has access to it.

It can all be done without a national ID card.

You don't want invasive use of identification. That's fine, I don't either. A national ID card has nothing to do with this issue, though.

[The Straight Story]

35. It does change things

ID's are a state level responsibility generally. The more the federal government standardizes and mandates the less power states have to do things in a more diverse manner. We do not live to serve the federal government and it's needs, it lives to serve ours.

The less diversity we have across the board the more power and the more we give up (slowly) the federal powerhouse. Incremental fascism occurs with little things - from schooling mandates for all states to seat belts, etc - and while all these may have good underlying things which benefit us they start adding up over time to where we become less independent and more reliant.

There is good and bad in it all, but there always should be a balance we watch and lines we draw. Such lines should even be drawn when we know crossing them could be best - because if we all agree something is best than states can freely make the decision without the feds to do something. While some may argue that is what they do in a congressional level that is putting the power into the hands of the few - we get better representation at the state and local levels.

A national ID card has lots of good reasons to be around. But reason alone is not enough to allow it to become law. The bigger, underlying, issue is who has the power. Want a standard ID, we can lobby the states to work together on it from the local level on up without nationalizing anything. The people, in the end, who would control it and the data would be spread out in a broader way making it more difficult for abuses of information - instead of one centralized group controlling it all there would be 50, and each state could have variances and local laws as needed to protect data and information.

Centralizing power and decisions is good for some things common to us all (defense for example) but there are fewer people weilding more power and that power needs to be held in check. Even when it is something little like a card with your picture on it.

[MercutioATC]

36. I understand your point and I agree in theory.

However, I don't think it's the "big brother" horror that some are making it out to be. I believe it does have legitimate security benefits and I don't think the states would agree to do it themselves.

[geomon666]

37. Well I give up.

If you want to trust this administration not to invade your privacy, you go right ahead. But I will not accept this form of ID from anyone. Benefits or not.

[MercutioATC]

38. Fair enough.

peace

[The Straight Story]

40. I understand that thought

But part of living in a free society is that we give up some things - like greater safety.

I have studied these cards for many years now and watch the evolution of them from the navy bases to the contractors to others (smart cards, see http://www.smartcard.gov/ )

Here was the basic idea as I saw it back in early 90's. The government was finding that smart cards were a good idea internally. They could control expenses and security better. They basically tested out this at military bases and got rid of cash. Pop machines and everything else took the cards, no need to dig for exact change or carry money. They also provided better security and other things relating to that were developed (ie biometric finger print plus smart card got you into computer, no need to remember passwords).

As this kept on going other areas of the government joined in. They could track spending better, save money, improve facility security, and so on.

It then spread. Example: Where I work we have some government systems. We have man trap doors keyed off a smart card and your finger print now - even though we only have a few systems there for the government and the rest are for our company, the mandate was we had to have it. So now we all have the cards and such. Ok, it is their stuff, we are cool with it.

The next progression - the general public. Military first, then federal employees at large, then contractors in private sector, then you and me. Smart cards are being pushed heavily (and other countries are ahead of us in the public arena on this, but we do have them like blue from american express).

Next step. We all get used to using them in our private lives and work. Then we end up with a national card which is also a smart card. And while it may have benefits it allows power to be concentrated and controlled by the few. No cash will be the long term goal, why use it? And then things get even worse.

It is a prorgession, slow but sure, and to be honest I thought we would be further along in the implementation of it by now. Another 9/11 style thing and the public will buy off on it in a hurry.

Good things in the right hands produce good results. But my faith in leadership is low given the history of mankind and his ability to abuse power. The less they have the more we have, even if we do things not in our best interest it is still better than giving up something for security reasons.

It is just a simple thing. A little card - but it is important to the feds we use it, so maybe it is not so simple.

[BiggJawn]

43. Sorry, but I have my doubts.

Then why have it? Hell, if nothing else, the budget needed to form the new Department of National ID Cards would be a huge waste of money, and we should oppose it on just THOSE grounds.

My driver's license shows that the State of Indiana has tested me for a minimum standard of ability to operate a motor vehicle. It also confirms my age and address. My work ID confirms that I do indeed work there.

The forces pushing for the National ID got more things planned for us, I tell you.

Yeah, maybe I *AM* paranoid. I've read the PNAC website, can you blame me?

[Oak2004]

42. Here's the problem

With such an ID and the proposed rules they can effectively control the movement and activities of dissidents. If you're a dissident, they can pretty much prevent you from leaving your home area, for reasons of "national security".

Then perhaps (next step) you won't be allowed to open a bank account, or obtain an internet account (gotta control those terrorists, right?). Then maybe it morphs into no education and no job.

And then, when you've been marginalized and isolated and are seen mostly as a burden by those who know you, they open up those camps and round you up. Or, alternately, they go South American style and don't bother with camps. You just "disappear" one night, and a few hours later yet another load of trash is delivered to the city dump at 2 AM by unmarked garbage trucks.

There's a reason dictators love internal passports (which is what this "I.D. card" truly is).

[Massacure]

5. Can't they be erased with a magnet?

[ClarkUSA]

15. Not bloody likely

Mihir Kshirsagar, a fellow at the Electronic Privacy Information Center, says that there's a "significant difference" between driver's licenses and a national ID because there are no uniform standards for the information on the license or what documents are required to get one. While driver's licenses are commonly used for identification, "you can show your passport or you can use other documents now," Kshirsagar says.

Still, privacy groups are rallying to fight a bill by Reps. James Moran, D-Va., and Tom Davis, R-Va., called the "Driver's License Modernization Act" that would require that states use uniform standards, embed a microchip in the cards and make sure state databases are fully linked. The bill is designed to cut down on identity theft and fraud. Privacy activists say it's the final step in making the license into a national ID, and the chip in the card could have all sorts of personal information added to it -- from bank accounts to medical records -- that would put all your information at risk.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/invest/extra/10305.asp

[Feron]

22. Never carry your SS card around...

if somebody steals your wallet then identity thieves will have all they need for a nice shopping spree.

I honestly don't know what i will do if there is a National ID card.

The only point of a National ID card would be to harass legal citizens. They certainly won't slow down terrorists because some of the 9/11 hijackers managed to fraudently obtain driver's licenses. It is not unimaginable that these people could also illegally obtain legitmate IDs. Just imagine if the goverment used biometrics and somebody stole your identity and replaced your fingerprints/retinal scan with theirs. If Ted Kennedy can't get off of a no-fly list, that doesn't bode well for the rest of us.


The best part about a state ID or a driver's license is that they are voluntary. If i think that they are too intrusive, then i will find another means of transportation and give up alcohol. No such choice with the goverment.

[newyawker99]

45. Hi Feron!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[auntAgonist]

49. Hey Feron ..

Welcome to DU


:hi: :hi: :hi:

[flaminbats]

23. Republicans opposed Clinton's healthcare plan because of the ID card..

why do they now support it? This time there are no tangible benefits, just another unwarranted intrusion on our privacy.

[Somawas]

24. I never show a driver's license any more when asked for a

gov. issued photo ID. I show my passport, just as I have done when travelling in Europe. Nobody ever bothers trying to write down all the numbers on a passport. They might note somewhere that I handed them a passport, but they don't try to copy the numbers.

[giasangria]

39. passports....

around here I have tried that and people stare at my passport like they have no clue what it is...then they usually bark "I HAVE to see a driver's license!" lol it really pissed me off one day when I was trying to buy some beer. I was trying to explain to the lady that a passport is actually a more reliable form of ID but she would have none of it.

[DustMolecule]

41. What's wrong with National ID cards? THIS is what's wrong....

National ID's are basically titles to chattle property.

That may SOUND extreme (at first), but THINK about the truth of it....

[jody]

46. What about a national ID card together with a DNA sample in an FBI file?

That could be used to solve crimes where DNA evidence is present.

[Comadreja]

51. Or an Iris Scan?

They're already preparing to impose such a card backed up by an Iris scan in Fallujah. It's the same old argument I heard among mindless Establishment kids at college on police drug inspections and employer urine tests: "If you're not hiding anything, what is the objection?" Fact is we are hiding something legitimate: our privacy.

[oneold1-4u]

50. Less than 18 months

And they will have many IDs with a chip already in place.
They will inform us that it is a good thing for many reasons and a huge number of the population will fall for. After all you can already find your stolen pet!
The important part, for the government, will be that they will at the push of a button, know exactly where everyone is at a given moment!
They will know of any assembly of more than 2 persons whether at a church, union meeting, democratic party gathering or just a bunch of draft age teens at a party.
This has got to stop!!! Someone must be able to stop this madness now!