Abe Lincoln was gay?

[burythehatchet]

News to me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/16/books/16linc.html?oref=login&8hpib

The subject of the 16th president's sexuality has been debated among scholars for years. They cite his troubled marriage to Mary Todd and his youthful friendship with Joshua Speed, who shared his bed for four years. Now, in a new book, C. A. Tripp also asserts that Lincoln had a homosexual relationship with the captain of his bodyguards, David V. Derickson, who shared his bed whenever Mary Todd was away.

In "The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln," to be published next month by Free Press, Mr. Tripp, a psychologist, influential gay writer and former sex researcher for Dr. Alfred C. Kinsey, tries to resolve the issue of Lincoln's sexuality once and for all. The author, who died in 2003, two weeks after finishing the book, subjected almost every word ever written by and about Lincoln to minute analysis. His conclusion is that America's greatest president, the beacon of the Republican Party, was a gay man.

[rolltide2005]

1. yeah

its like our sex. we're all born women, and then we get the male gene?

same thing. we're all born gay and some people get the hetero gene.

[DrWeird]

That's some great science you've got there.

where'd you learn it? Discovery Institute.

[naryaquid]

4. ........I would respectfully call that into question...The first is

a scientific fact, the second sounds like someone's guess.

[DrWeird]

6. Which part was a fact?

That we're all born women, or that we than get the man gene?

[naryaquid]

10. ..The first....as I said!

[DrWeird]

13. We're all born women?

That's an amazing fact.

So, does that mean all women have penises and testicles, or that boys grow penises on, like, their seventh birthday or something?

[Razorback_Democrat]

16. LOL I think the author meant that initially in utero we are all female

and that genetics takes over and makes some of us male

not that "we're all born women"

at least I wasn't

I had a pee pee when I was born

[DrWeird]

18. Apparently he's awfully confused.

We're conceived with the "male gene." Also showing ineptitude with genetics, it's the male chromosome which is a collection of thousands of genes, and we don't "get" it after birth or conception, but during.

[Ladyhawk]

8. Actually, sex is determined by genes in people at conception.

If you get the Y chromosome from your father, it will pair with your mother's X chromosome and you will be a boy. If you get the X chromosome from your father, it will pair with the X chromosome from your mother and you will be a girl. Sometimes hormonal fluctuations during pregnancy can cause problems and the child will be born a hermaphrodite. There can also be problems with extra chromosomes. Some men have two Y chromosomes.

XX = girl
XY = boy

There are a bunch of things that can go wrong to cause the child to look androgynous, but I am too tired to look them up. :)

[Walt Starr]

23. WRONG, sexual expression in humans is determined by hormonal responses

Every last human fetus ever conceived starts out female regardless of the genetic makeup of the individual fetus. Hormonal responses that occur most often in those fetuses that contain the "Y" chromosone produce the male genitalia.

This, however, is not always the case and there are fetuses with the "Y" chromosone that never produce the necessary hormone levels to produce male genitalia. somne "Y" chromosone fetuses do not produce enough of the hormone and form both male and female genitalia.

Some fetuses without the "Y" chromosone will still produce the necessary hormonal levels to produce male genitalia as well.

This is the biological fact of the matter. Although general conclusions about sexual expression can be derived by the genetic makeup of an individual, it does not always play out that way. Nature is neither well ordered nor does it follow hard and fast rules.

This flies in the face of a mechanistic worldview presented by most philosophers and religions, but it is the sad fact of the matter. The great watchmaker philosphy surrounding origins within the universe falls on its face when you see that nature does not follow the watchmaking philosophy.

[DrWeird]

24. The hormonal response is caused by expression of the Y chromosome.

The male human fetus starts out as male, it just hasn't grown the penis yet. Yes, there are occasionaly abnormalities that cause the male fetus to be born with maldeveloped male genitialia. In the same fashion, female fetuses can be born with overdeveloped male-like genitalia. Irregardless, gender is determined genetically.

"Although general conclusions about sexual expression can be derived by the genetic makeup of an individual, it does not always play out that way."

Right, and the exceptions prove the rule, gender's determined upon conception.


Edited to fix a crazyass typo.

[Walt Starr]

25. Wrong again

The male fetus has female genitalia first. The difference is that when the proper hormonal levels are produced, the clitoris elongates and thinkens to become a penis and the ovaries drop to become the testicles.

[DrWeird]

28. No shit, I already posted that.

But the male fetus has a Y chromosome and that "female" genitalia will naturally finish growing into male genitalia. Those hormone levels are predetermined upon conception.

The embryo also has a tail, you don't say a fetus isn't concieved as a human, and doesn't become a human until hormones remove the tail.

[Walt Starr]

31. Not every time

The existance of the Y chromosone within the genetic makeup is not a guarantee of male sexual expression. There are women who have the Y chromosone and men who do not have the Y chromosone.

Under your definition, if a person has a Y chromosone, a clitoris, and ovaries, they are male.

Also under your definition if a person does not have a Y chromosone but have a penis and testicles they are female.

Nature does not fit presupposed patterns. Nature is chaotic and cannot fit into nice simple definitions.

[sir_captain]

33. Now you've got it

"Under your definition, if a person has a Y chromosone, a clitoris, and ovaries, they are male.

Also under your definition if a person does not have a Y chromosone but have a penis and testicles they are female."

Biologically speaking, this is absolutely correct. Culturally, of course, is a different matter, but that's not the question here.

[DrWeird]

34. Yeah, and the exceptions prove the rule.

The development of external genitalia IS determined by genetics, it IS mechanistic, and the exceptions only occur because of some error during the development.

"Under your definition, if a person has a Y chromosone, a clitoris, and ovaries, they are male.

Also under your definition if a person does not have a Y chromosone but have a penis and testicles they are female."

Yes.

[Walt Starr]

35. I do not accept your definitions

Maleness and Femaleness are defined by horomones, not by genetics. That is biological fact.

[sir_captain]

37. Dear god

no, it isn't. You're just wrong.

[DrWeird]

38. It might be your opinion, hardly biological fact.

Take David Reamer. He was conceived a male, with a Y chromosome. Unfortunately, due to a hormone deficiency, he was born with underdeveloped genitalia. Now to you he'd be a female, he didn't get those hormones. The doctors thought so too. So they performed a little cosmetic surgery. Unfortunately, David Reamer was genetically and biologically a male, and the resulting trauma eventually led to his suicide.

[sir_captain]

29. You just don't get it

The presence of differentiated genitalia does not determine gender. When you were a fetus with still developing genitalia, you were a male because you had a Y chromosome. The *sole* deciding factor of biological gender is the presense or lack thereof of a Y chromosome at the time of conception. Men are not in any way "female first."

[Walt Starr]

30. No, I wasn't a male yet because male sexual expression had not occurred

yet.

I did not become phyusically a male until my clitoris elngated and became a penis and my ovaries dropped to become testicles.

[sir_captain]

32. No, you're wrong

If you lopped off your penis and testicles today, you'd still biologically be a male. If you had gender reassignment surgery, you'd still *biologically* be a male. Physical characteristics do *not* determine gender--it's the other way around. You were a male from the instant that your father's sperm's Y chromosome (among others) mixed with your mom's DNA contribution. I don't know how to explain it any other way...

[Nikia]

41. Actually some women have Y chromosomes

I learned about this in my college zoology class. In humans, I believe around 3-4 months sex differentiation occurs. Until then genetalia have the potential to be penis or clitoris, testes or ovaries, testicles or vagina. These are equivalent tissues. The Y chromosome usually triggers maleness. Sometimes it doesn't. These fetuses never get the initial surge of testosterone vital for turning these issues into male tissues. These babies are born female, which are like females in every other respect except that they have a Y chromosome. Unless they are chromosomally sex tested, they will never know that they are genetically male. These women are not any less likely to have children because they are hormonally female. I forget what the frequency of this is, but it is not extremely rare. Hormones are what control reproduction, sexual dimorphism, and gendered behavior (although humans are the most learning oriented animal). The interesting thing is that Olympic and other international level athletes are now chromosomally tested. Some of these women are discovered to to be male by the chromosomal standard and usually end up faking injury or something to not expose the real reason they aren't allowed to compete at that level which is unfortunate since they don't really have any athletic advantage over other women. In a case where this was used to a woman's advantage, there was a lesbian marriage in Texas a while back. Even though one of the female partners had lived her whole life as female and was female in every other way, she was chromosomally tested and found to have a Y chromosome. She then claimed to be legally male and married her female partner.
Sex and gender is based on hormones, not chromosomes.

[rolltide2005]

11. ..

BTW people 1st part fact 2nd part a JOKE

[DrWeird]

15. Actually, no, the first is ridiculously wrong.

Males are both conceived and born male. It's true, embryonic genitalia are undifferentiated until large amounts of male hormones are expressed, causing the labia majora to become a scrotum, and the labia minora and clitoris to become a penis. But that's hardly what you said.

[rolltide2005]

39. your dr wierd

im a football fan, not a biologist.

[Burma Jones]

2. So, does this mean that the Civil War will NOW be couched

as the south rebelling against this "Yankee Sodomite?"

Maybe now, the Republicans can shed any pretense of equality along with one of their founders......

[Walt Starr]

3. That's why they're called "Log Cabin Republicans"

There have been rumors about this for years and years and years.

[burythehatchet]

5. As someone not born in the US

some things I never became aware of, this was one. The log cabin thing makes sense now. I always wondered about that.

[Kingshakabobo]

7. He was in to wrestling. hmmmmm n/t

[AllegroRondo]

9. I heard they only 'shared a bed'

because Lincoln could not afford his own. This was actually common at the time.

[Lerkfish]

12. and I say..."if so, so what?:"

[Must_B_Free]

14. Well, he did like to wrestle with other men.

[WI_DEM]

17. Re: Speed it was common for men to share quarters and one

bed at that time especially in cramped quarters and while they were riding the circuit. Occassionally three men might have to share a bed. As for the other allegation, I don't know without seeing what evidence he has to present. If Lincoln was gay more power to him.

[rabid_nerd]

19. Log Cabin Republican...

n/t

[sir_captain]

20. This book is what we students of history like to call...

projection. To say that the evidence is circumstantial is almost an understatement. And really, what's the point of it all?

[rabid_nerd]

21. To those of us around Gettysburg, A LOT OF FUN

hehehe

[sir_captain]

22. hehe

or that...

[Radical Activist]

26. Only if you really really really want him to be

It's a big stretch to even make the argument. No serious Lincoln historian has ever believed he was. For years the strongest evidence was a supposed letter that the owner wouldn't let anyone examine for authenticity.

It wasn't uncommon for two men to share a bed in those times, especially when traveling like Lincoln did on the legal circuit. It didn't mean they were screwing eachother.

[Radical Activist]

27. It's much more likely that his predecessor James Buchanan

was gay. There's some fairly convincing evidence of that. Of course, it's more attractive for gay rights activists to claim Lincoln was gay because Buchanan was one of the worst Presidents in American history.

[noel711]

36. Lincoln gay.....?

As a transplanted Illinoisian, and a friend to many gay men, I assert that this "evidence" is very weak; besides, Lincoln was not
physically attractive enough to be gay. Look at his hair, for instance.

[Sara Beverley]

40. My question: So what?

It doesn't change a thing that happened.

[skygazer]

42. This is one of those nonsense things

Where people confuse 19th century habits with 20th and 21st century.

Back then, it was not considered unusual for people of the same sex to share a bed. Homes were smaller and heated with wood. Sharing a bed meant conserving space and heat. Often, even in boarding houses and hotels, guests would find themselves sharing a bed with a complete stranger.

Lincoln DID share a bed with Speed during their early years of law practice and that was not unusual for the time and place. I've heard the speculation on the other guy and it is just that - speculation. No proof has ever been offered that I have seen.

People have an agenda and interpret the evidence to fit that agenda. It's like interpreting the bible - you can make any case you want out of it and people frequently do.

[Walt Starr]

43. Tell it to the Log Cabin Republicans

:shrug:

I believe you are correct, but tell it to the Log Cabin Republicans.

[skygazer]

45. I don't need to

They are one of those groups with an agenda. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

[UdoKier]

44. Only Abe really knew

And I personally don't care.

Just like I don't care if Jesus was black, brown or white.