Other than Lincoln who was the best president from 1850-1900

[WI_DEM]

I'm interested in your opinions.

[SaveElmer]

1. Kind of a dead period there

As much as I admire Grant and think he is underestimated his Presidency was not a success (though not as bad as is generally believed). I guess I would go with Chester Arthur and his Civil Service reforms...not really alot to choose from in there

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Looking at the situation today, I'm not sure I'd include Lincoln at all.

The North and South obviously still have not kissed and made up. The tensions and differences are still very much there. I'm not sure it wasn't a huge mistake by keeping the North and South together. I'm not so sure we wouldn't be a whole lot better off if we were separate countries.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. I Couldn't Disagree More...

As bad as things are and were dissolving the union wouldn't have fixed them....

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. Sure it would've.

The South would have their own little area to run as they wish and so would we. They could fail miserably with their "states rights" bullshit, and we'd continue to prosper.

[WI_DEM]

6. If that had happened

would slavery still be in effect in the south? or would international pressure along with changing times had ended it peacefully? I think we did need an American civil war to finally rid slavery even though Jim Crow existed for 100 years after the war.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. Well, according to many a person I know from the South...

slavery had little or nothing to do with the Civil War.

[WI_DEM]

13. but it took a civil war to end it

regardless of whether the war was about preserving the union or ending slavery. Eventually the war did take on the moral compass of ending slavery.

[Roachman]

22. The Civil War was completely about slavery

The idea that the Civil War was NOT about slavery was a myth created by Jefferson Davis himself in his writings after the war. The South kinda realized by that time how bad they would look in history if they were remembered as having fought (and lost) for keeping slavery. So, Jefferson Davis and other Confederates decided to write books indicating that they never meant to fight for slavery.
It is a wonder that historians today believe their post-war writing.
In a 150 years, students will argue over whether the Iraq Wars were about the Great Cause as well. It's much easier to discuss The Great Cause, then concrete details that are falsifiable and actual motivations that can be shown to be founded in evil.

[Yupster]

32. At the Hampton Roads Conference

Lincoln offered Confederate Vice-president Alexander Stephens a deal.

End the rebellion by April 1, 1865 and slaveowners will be compensated for their losses.

That was a pivotal moment for the country. The war was of course going very badly. Would they give up their independance to get value for their slaves?

There was hardly any debate.

The one issue which could not be given up was independance. That came above all other issues including slavery.

PS - they should have taken the deal. The day after the deadline expired, Lee gave up his lines around Richmond and tried a rush for the mountains. He failed and was cornered a week later at Appomattox.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

35. Wrong. They would have had to accept emancipation

and THAT is what they did not want in addition to independence. The possibility of reparations was brought up but it was never definite. I hate when revisionists try and portray the South as full of "freedom fighters" when it was full of people who supported slavery.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

36. Well, they are wrong. The Civil War came down to slavery.

The greatest argument I've heard for why it wasn't about slavery was that Lincoln said he just did not want to extend slavery to the West but would not take slavery from the south. To then go and say that this meant that lincoln would have let slavery continue in the south is bullshit though. The reason the south wanted slave states in the North was so that it would not be overtaken in the Congress and have slavery removed from the country by Congress. The civil war was entirely about slavery.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Wow-Slavery On The North American Continent In The 21st Century

What a concept....

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. heh... do Mexican illegal immigrants working for $1/hour count?

If so, it's not a foreign concept at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. They Come Here Voluntarily Not In Chains

eom

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. One could argue they are pushed here by economic hardship

Which almost as bad.

I'm not arguing that though. Just throwing it out there.

[Yupster]

31. The last major country in the New World

to give up slavery was Brazil in the 1880's.

I don't see why a Confederacy would have been longer than that. It would be a nation very dependant on foreign trade.

Freedom probably would have come slower though, maybe based on a Jamaica model.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

18. Are you serious?

Preserving the Union is the greatest act any President ever did. Based on your rationale,what would keep the country from fragmenting ala the Balkans? You know, the Northwest states vs California versus the Great Lakes etc, etc,etc,,,,,,,,,

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. Maybe it WOULD fragment. Maybe it SHOULD fragment.

Who says "Manifest Destiny" HAD to be a good idea?

[Yupster]

30. No fan of Lincoln's here either

I gurss I'd vote for Grovwe Cleveland of the available choices.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Grant For Fighting For The Freedman...

Plus historians are giving Grant a second look and it ain't all bad....

[liberalpragmatist]

12. An Era of Mediocrity

National leadership was sorely lacking in that period. Inept and weak leadership brought on the civil war and after Lincoln's assassination, inept and weak leadership botched reconstruction and left the South festering, leaving it bound to stay a backwards and segregated region.

It's also important to note that in this period, mostly Republican presidents acquiesced to Congressional rule. It was a period of congressional dominance, with the Speakers of the House generally having far more power than the Presidents.

Grant wasn't as bad as he was often believed. Also Chester Alan Arthur put some well-needed civil service reforms in place and is ranked as being pretty good by historians. Garfield is said to have shown potential but was assassinated within a few months. Cleveland was alright, but was quite corporate - putting down strikes, etc.

[WI_DEM]

14. I agree that Arthur is one of the better ones of that period

[MisterP]

17. I like Arthur too;

Hayes was a lot like Tilden, Grant was somewhat inept, the rest Victorian (Harrison, Cleveland) or imperialist (McKinley--Rove says he's his model for Shrubble).

[TWiley]

15. George Bush !

The way the republi-craps are re-writing history, I am sure bush will be slipped in somewhere along the way to take credit for the Civil War.

Actually, I do not feel that there was a good president during that period.

[Vidar]

16. He'll certainly get credit for the next one.

[TyeDye75]

19. Was Teddy Roosevelt Pres in the late 1890s

or was it the early 1900, Im British so Im not sure.

[hatrack]

20. Not until 1901, when McKinley was assassinated

nt

[TyeDye75]

21. OK then I vote for Grant for being a drunken idiot/ lol nt/

[Lenape85]

23. 1901-1909

[Harry S Truman]

38. Motown Sounds

Who was the man, who was the fattest man in all the land?
Taft!
Damn right.......

Who was great in the election back in 1908?
Taft.
Right on..

They say this cat Taft was a fat mother-fu...
Hush you mouth!
Well I'm talkin 'bout Taft!
Well, he can eat it.

[artv28]

45. Taft

was the president known for getting stuck in the WH bathtub. If I wasn't a 'Little Feat' fan I wouldn't have known this fact. This was the basis of the 70's rock classic 'Fat man in the bathtub'.

[HeilChimp]

24. Does V.P. Adlai Stevenson count?

I do not think there was a "best" President from 1850-1900, it was a low point in American history.

Lincoln was just as bad as Chimp, he invaded foriegn countries and waged an unproved, bloody war, supressed civil liberties, had the feds endorse all kinds of "Christian" ideals on the rest of the country (Thanksgiving Day, "In God We Trust" on all currency), and was not only a slimey racist but a puppet of the millitary-industrial complex and paid for by the coorporations (mainly railroad interests), I'm sure Chimpy learned from him well. And you know what Abe's nickname was? "The Old Ape!" Talk about foreshadowing.

I think Andrew Johnson was okay, being pro-union WITHOUT having Abe's fascist tendandies, but the Repug congress impeached him for vetoing their fascist legislation.

The only Democrat President for the real of the era was Grover Cleveland, and he was some DINO who regularly endorsed the Repugs on every issue, the true progressives hated him.

On the ticket with Cleveland was Adlai Stevenson I, a TRUE progressive from the "other wing" of the party -- if only the Dems had run him in 1896! He would have lead Americans in the 20th century far better than that coorporate tool William McKinley.

[Lenape85]

26. Well...

Lincoln might have had his problems, but consider the alternatives. We had confederate bitchboy Breckenridge, Stephen "states rights" Douglas, and John "pro-slavery" Bell. Who knows how George MacClellan might have done though

Andrew Johnson could have been a great prez, if the congress had not treated him so bad.

U.S. Grant, through all the corruption, had proven himself not to be so bad. Although he isn't the greatest, he's still a lot better than most people make him out to be. Hell, he created Yellowstone

Sam Tilden was a good man, he was probably one of the first Northern liberal democrats (he was an abolitionist and helped to bust people who were mismanaging the canals). I wish he was elected

You are right, Cleveland was one of the first DINOs, and Harrison and McKinley just sucked

[liberalpragmatist]

29. Whatever

There's no perfect leader, but you slam his as fascistic and hold Johnson up as your ideal? Aside from Horace Greeley, there were virtually no whites at the time who believed that Blacks should receive equal rights. Moreover, Lincoln clearly evolved. He was initially for resettlement, but by the end of his life had come around to the view that Blacks were here to stay and they should live a decent life. And the north didn't provoke the war - the South did.

As for Lincoln's suppressing civil liberties, that is a genuine black mark since it didn't do anything to help the war effort. But FDR wasn't immune from doing the same thing.

And yes the GOP was more corporatist than the Democrats, but they were also far more interested in an activist government and pursued generally good policies for Americans and were far more progressive than most Democrats in those days.

As for Johnson? The guy had no interest in reconstruction or equal rights for Blacks. He wasn't even an abolitionist. He opposed secession and that was that. Radical Republican government at the time would probably have been best, even though it would have been divisive, b/c the Radicals wouldn't have allowed Jim Crow laws and would have called for genuine economic redistribution. Johnson had no interest in any of that. He shouldn't have been impeached (it was merely a power grab), but he was not a good president in any way and he was possibly the worst man possible to be in a position of power following Lincoln's assassination.

[m berst]

33. welcome to DU

Lincoln was just as bad as Chimp, he invaded foreign countries and waged an unproved, bloody war, suppressed civil liberties, had the feds endorse all kinds of "Christian" ideals on the rest of the country (Thanksgiving Day, "In God We Trust" on all currency), and was not only a slimy racist but a puppet of the military-industrial complex and paid for by the corporations (mainly railroad interests), I'm sure Chimpy learned from him well. And you know what Abe's nickname was? "The Old Ape!" Talk about foreshadowing.

Lincoln didn't invade any foreign countries, in fact he was one of the few who spoke out against Polk's adventures and that almost destroyed his political career. The derogatory term that people used for Lincoln was "the original gorilla" and I haven't seen "old ape" although "old Abe" was common. Lincoln was as close to being a "scoffer" and "charcoal" as a politician could be in his era. "Scoffer" meant not religious and "charcoal" meant favoring rights for the slaves and former slaves and free Blacks. He struggled with these two political handicaps, so that completely contradicts the "racist" charge and the implication that he advocated breaking down church and state separation.

Lincoln did argue for railroad interests as an attorney on the circuit in Illinois, and that was the only time in his life that he wasn't poor. That was before he was president and is not relevant to his presidency. He was hardly a "puppet" of anyone.

Lincoln did not "suppress civil liberties" he exercised executive power as authorized by the Constitution.

Article I, section 9

Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

37. Stevenson??

Lincoln a Racist? Yeah right. Johnson was a southern idiot only added to the ticket to get Lincoln reelected. He let the reconstruction go horribly and was one of the worst presidents EVER.

Here are some quotes from that racist, Lincoln.

"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VIII, "Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment" (March 17, 1865), p. 361.

What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" Lincoln's Cooper Institute Address, February 27, 1860

I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except Negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except Negroes and foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty - to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Letter to Joshua F. Speed" (August 24, 1855), p. 323.

And here is a quote from him showing how much he supports those big corporations :eyes:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)
Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)

[liberalpragmatist]

39. the last one was debunked - fraudulant

Well, to be fair, according to wikipedia it's disputed. Snopes claims it's false, but another source, ratical.org claims it's true. Unfortunately, ratical.org doesn't appear to be working right now.

Here's Snopes, though, which says it's fraudulant:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.htm

In a specific sense, this quote sounds plausible because Lincoln's tenure as president occurred during a great war that was indeed the focal point of industrial and economic change in America, and because Lincoln left behind some decidedly pro-labor statements. As Merrill Peterson detailed:


It was easy to understand Lincoln's appeal to social radicals, said Ghent, for he held very advanced views of the rights of labor. As early as 1847 he had written, "To secure to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government," which was remarkable for a prarie lawyer of that time. Speaking in New England in 1860, he praised the right to strike, as then being exercised by the shoemakers of Lynn. His clear assertion of the labor theory of value in the 1861 message — "Labor is prior to, and . . . superior to capital" — and his answers to the addresses of workingmen abroad and at home gave a color of Marxism to his thinking. He was, surely, the best friend labor ever had in the White House.
Nonetheless, Peterson concluded, even Lincoln's wartime experience and pro-labor credentials don't justify the attribution of the "money power" warning to him:

Nevertheless, he was no prophet. Imprisoned in the democratic-capitalist ideology of nineteenth-century America, he believed the free laborer toiled up from poverty to become a capitalist in his own right. Individual opportunity, not class struggle, was his message.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

41. The person that claims it is false (not snopes)

wrote a book that was very anti-lincoln and pro-south. I am not particularly inclined to believe him. But sure, we'll not include it just to be on the safe side.

His name is thomas j dilorenzo and the book is "The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War"

The very fact that he says "unnecessary war" gives a clue about what angle he is takeing.

[liberalpragmatist]

42. That's a good point - but what about Merrill Peterson?

Who I believe is quite a well-respected Lincoln historian.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

43. It's debated...

you're right, it's best not to include it for the sake of an entirely unbiased approach.

[WI_DEM]

40. actually Grover wasn't a DINO

he was a traditional conservative 19th Century Democrat in the Jeffersonian/Jackson tradition. It was Bryan who was out of step with the Democratic party of that time.

[stevedeshazer]

25. Garfield would have made a great president

Cut down short by a nut case.

Good read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Garfield

[T Town Jake]

27. Grover Cleveland.

(n/t)

[oneold1-4u]

44. Have to go along with Grover

The only president elected twice (2 different times).
The only president to admit an illegitimate child, that he gave name to, and supported.
The first to marry in the WH and 1st to have a child born there. ("Baby Ruth" died as a child, but the name lives on)
The 1st pres. to have cancer surgery. ( mouth surgery, likely because of cigars)(surgery took place in secret aboard the presidential yacht)
Of course he did a few president things but he was honest in recognizing that Taft (who he helped succeed him after 1st term) was a wrong choice.
I have done some research but would like to find more,(a lot missing) because of family history back to that time.

[The Sushi Bandit]

28. They all SUCKED!