The School of Creationism

[madinmaryland]

Children in a Pennsylvania Town Will be Taught that God Made the World, Igniting a Debate Which Splits the US.

by Andrew Buncombe in Dover, Pennsylvania

Was the landscape around the small town of Dover in Pennsylvania created in just six days? Were the gently curving hills perfected, the streams formed and finished, the wide, empty skies fixed in place beneath the firmament and the narrow wooded valleys completed? Was it all really done in less than a week?

It was, at least according to the creationist beliefs of much of the town's population of 1,800, who have little time for Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. And their fundamental beliefs are set to gain further currency.

As of next month, in a hugely controversial move, the town's high school will become the first in the US for several generations to teach a form of creationism as part of its curriculum.

But the controversy that has split the town of Dover, an hour's drive north of Baltimore, is not simply some local squabble. Rather it is a debate that is taking place in communities across the US.

Classrooms, courtrooms, public places, even the very pledges that officials swear when taking office have become the focus of a bitterly contested and growing dispute about whether Christianity should be officially incorporated into civic life or if there should be a real and meaningful separation of church and state.

It is a row that has pitched Christian against Christian, scientist against scientist.

snip

:wtf: is going on?

edit link: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1220-08.htm

[flvegan]

I just read this on CommonDreams

Let the lawsuits begin!

Link to full story:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1220-08.htm

[RuleofLaw]

1. Just one question

As I was driving to work this morning I saw a huge SUV with the obligatory Jesus fish on the back.

So I was thinking, where does people who believe in creationism think oil is coming from?

How do they explain the existence of oil and other minerals. That god created them?

Just curious

[madinmaryland]

3. What about dinosaurs?

How could they leave big marks in rocks? I'm just so confused. Did their bones turn to rock overnight?

[nickinSTL]

8. I've heard some say

that god created dinosaur fossils to 'test people's faith'

First time I heard that, I was in 10th grade biology class. A fellow student asked if I 'really believed in evolution'. When I mentioned dinosaurs, that was his answer.

I was SHOCKED that anyone really thought something like that.

[0007]

13. Why even have a discussion with these idiots ? They're more mystified

if ya don't say or ask 'em a fucking thing.

[nickinSTL]

20. The discussion didn't really go anywhere from there...

I was so shocked that anyone would believe that...

I mean, what kind of god would go to such lengths to TEST his people?

Not one I want anything to do with...

[madinmaryland]

23. I've never heard that, and I grew up in Ohio.

real fundie land.

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. (In a Gollum voice) Their god is a tricksey god. He makes them

think wrong thingses, then casts them into hell for doing it. Very tricksey.

[LibertyLover]

43. God or the Devil

Years ago, back when I was a senior in high school back and dirt was in beta, I attended an Assemblies of God church with a friend. She had asked me go with her because the adult Bible Studies group was going to discuss evolution and while she didn't believe in creationism, she also didn't know that much about evolutionary theory, whereas I spent my life with my nose in National Geographic and their articles on the Leakeys. Anyway, I went with her and of course "lost" the discussion. The youth pastor condesendingly explained to me, poor stupid Catholic that I was at the time, that the Bible was the inerrent Word of God and so therefore evolution didn't exist. I asked about the fossil record and the Leakeys' discoveries and was told that some of them God had created to test our faith and others were counterfits created by the Devil to, guess what, test our faith. Luckily I was intelligent enough to understand that the deck had been stacked against me from the get-go. I told the pastor and the group that if that was the case, I didn't want to worship their God since I didn't appreciate jokes very much. I'll never forget the stunned look (think gaffed fish) on the youth pastor's face.

After the Bible study class my friend apologized and said that she had honestly thought there would be a back and forth discussion like in school. What amused me was that she wound up going to a small Bible college near our hometown, but was constantly being watched to see that she didn't spread heresy among the other students because she was, in addition to being a pentacostal Christian, a student of Edgar Cayce and believed in reincarnation. Two and a half strikes against her. She had a wonderful time, did graduate and moved to Virginia Beach to work for the Cayce organization, the A.R.E. Because she could "talk the talk", she went on the 700 Club several times as the ARE spokesperson.

[LWolf]

21. I have spoken to many who don't "believe in" dinosaurs.

They basically say that the bones are from other animals, and that scientists have just assembled them wrong.

You'd think that the required part of science curriculum in my state that covers fossils is pretty straight-forward:

(Science standard 3d for 2nd graders):

Students know that fossils provide evidence about the plants and animals that lived long ago and that scientists learn about the past history of Earth by studying fossils.

3e for 3rd graders:

Students know that some kinds of organisms that once lived on Earth have completely disappeared and that some of those resembled others that are alive today.

In my community, many 2nd and 3rd grade teachers gloss over this quickly; dinosaurs are not mentioned, and "long ago" is not defined. Why? Because the creationists are loud and well-organized. They can guarantee a miserable year for a whole class of students, and some career setbacks for the teacher.

[nascarblue]

42. They believe in the Flintstones obviously

[JHB]

5. Yep

G*D snapped his fingers, and the world was made, oil & all.

Occasionally they'll wander off the reservation (saw a "700 Club" once that was doing a "human interest" spot on people saving a manatee, and they mentioned that manatees "are more closely related to elephants" (or cows, or whatever --- it was over a decade ago --- it's just that they didn't realize they were talking about an evolutionary concept).

[Not_Giving_Up]

7. Yes, silly!

Oil is a resource put here just for them by their creator.

[Zhade]

48. Wow - then he was a DICK for not putting more there.

Thanks for Peak Oil, "God".

</sarcasm>

[flvegan]

12. It's really quite obvious

God created oil AND suvs. He created the oil to power said 4-wheeled behemoths. People, obsessed with their land yachts, drive up the need for the aforementioned oil, such that God's organ-grinding monkey boy can send some of His children to die for it. He created the fundies to drive out abortion and pre-marital sex in hopes that more children would be born (to buy an suv or die for oil). It's the Circle of Life.

See? Quite simple.

[anti-fundie]

19. Finally, I understand!

The fundies believe Adam and Eve were the first people from which all of us descend, right? Tell you what: let's give this one to them. The fundie/repubs can descend from Adam and Eve's incestuous line so long as everyone else can descend from Reason.

What is with these people?!

[gander2112]

47. Yes, they actually do...

believe that God put the oil there for us to use as we see fit.

I used to work around a bunch of these nuts and I used to shake my head several times a day when they would open their mouths and pontificate.

Naturally, I left that den of iniquity.

Geoff

[JHB]

2. Yeah, WTF?

Scientist against Scientist?

Who are the creationist "scientists"?

[madinmaryland]

4. I think that would classify as an oxymoron.

n/t

[JHB]

6. With emphasis on the Moron!

:argh:

[ChairOne]

11. EXACTLY what I was thinking...

There is NO debate on the matter within the scientific community...

My guess is that either:

(a) It was an asinine attempt at creating a literary flourish in the text, or

(b) It's the result of the nowadays-all-too-common attempt by writers to achieve "fairness" in reporting by falsifying facts that might create an appearance of bias.

Which is it? Your guess is as good as mine...

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Every creationist scientist I have ever heard of was talking outside

his own field. Theoretical physicists, talking about biology. Mathmaticians, talking about geology. I have yet to hear of a biologist who did not believe in evolution.

[Ms_Mary]

37. There was my high school biology teacher

who was also sponsor for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes club. If I remember correctly, part of the reasoning was that 98% of all mutations are fatal therefore the statistical possibility of evolution was nil. I believed her, but at some point, I grew up and developed a mind of my own. I am religious, I just don't believe that the story of creation has to be literally interpreted.

[RaleighNCDUer]

40. Maybe she was like my biology teacher, a guy who taught the

class without knowing what he was talking about. Well, he did know what he was talking about, since he spent most of his time talking about his time on the Oklahoma City police force. And we learned a lot about scary VDs, except how to catch them.

98% of mutations are not fatal, as I have understood it -- most are simply 'non-beneficial'. Of course, most natural miscarriages could be the result of fatal mutations, and I don't know how that affects the totals. But 98% non-beneficial means, reasoning it out, that 2% of mutations are beneficial, and that would be a huge number. I actually doubt the number is even that high, considering the billions of permutations that would involve in even a single year.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

9. Homeschooling looks better every day

And I don't even have kids yet.

:scared:

[joefree1]

10. Let the Founding Fathers reply

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion, but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."
-- Thomas Paine

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

-- Benjamin Franklin

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

-- James Madison

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced."

-- John Adams

"They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility, against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough too in their opinion."

-- Thomas Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

-- James Madison

"Its first and most immediate purpose rested on the belief that a union of government and religion tends to destroy government and degrade religion."

-- Justice Hugo Black, On the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganWarrior/

[Jesus H. Christ]

14. What's this doing at commondreams?

Somebody fucked up.

[joefree1]

15. "Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community"

What, you were expecting them to only report the good news?


Seating now available in the Smoking Section:
Politics, humor, death and the Devil - http://www.eDiablo.com

[Jesus H. Christ]

16. No...

I was suspecting them to not report right-wing propaganda.

[Bridget Burke]

17. It's not propaganda.

It's a grim tale of a community in trouble.

[Jesus H. Christ]

18. No, it's clearly right-wing propaganda.

In particular, this sentence:

It is a row that has pitched Christian against Christian, scientist against scientist.

[beam me up scottie]

22. Here's an educational website for the creationalist "scientists"

note: this is not a parady website, these people are serious.
http://objective.jesussave.us/creation.html

[madinmaryland]

25. Holy sh*t, where did you find this?

These guys are actually serious:

Articles On Evolutionism:
(These are also listed on my main page.)

Evolutionism Propaganda:
Examples of how Evolutionists spread their false doctrines using PBS, children's programming, and the Apple Macintosh.

"Aquatic Ape Theory":
Evolutionists sink to new lows, leagues under the sea.

The Eye:
Complicated and purposefully designed. Could random mutations really do that?

Auquatic Ape Theory: :wtf:



http://objective.jesussave.us/aquatic.html

:argh:

[Jesus H. Christ]

26. This is what Creationism is about, people.

This is what we're debating about teaching our kids in schools.

[beam me up scottie]

30. got it from this "family-values-morals-blahblahblah" website

http://www.repentamerica.com/goodenough.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. No, the Objective: Shutdown Landover Baptist site *is* a parody

though I don't know about 'repent America'.

Search around the Objective: site, and you'll find games which point out that biblical characters were bigamists, and the the Apple Mac operating system is both communist and the work of the devil.

It's very well written, but it is a parody (probably by the people who do Landover Baptist). It turns up here (and other sites) every so often.

[pbeal]

41. Luke 6 is Jesus's final word on who gets in and values that matter

this is my favorite section
Luke 6:20 - 26
Looking at his disciples, he said:
Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.


But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

[JHB]

32. Amusing, but typical creationist misrepresentation

The "aquatic ape theory" is a hypothesis that attempts to account for a number of unique human traits (the relative hairlessness, the breath control that facilitiates speach, the placement of our subcutaneous fat, babies' instinctive swimming ability, etc.) by speculating that at least one of the pre-human species that led to us spent a great deal of time in the water, since many of those traits have more in common with semiaquatic animals (like seals & sea lions) than with plains-dwelling animals (the "standard" evolutionary environment for our ancestors).

And yes, simple eyes DO work, that's why they develop so early on the evolutionary scale.

[beam me up scottie]

33. sorry, meant to say I live in a red state where you can't go an hour,

(let alone a day) without someone shoving their own personal deity down your throat. I've developed a morbid fascination (kind of like driving past a car wreck). I think more sheeple need to learn about these nut jobs. If reading this doesn't wake up john q. public from their self-destructive coma, nothing will.

[Bandit]

27. Does their science believe in radio-carbon dating?

The base of all organic beings is carbon. Is this a science that is not believed by christians.

[Jesus H. Christ]

28. No, they don't believe in carbon dating.

But let's not confuse these people with real Christians. Christians haven't a problem with carbon dating.

[rman]

39. their "science" is more properly called pseudo-science

it's an unscientific science. shouldn't be called science really.

[MatrixEscape]

44. I like this idea:

http://christianexodus.org/

The Domionist Theocrats are so radical that, rather than RUDELY imposing their archaic, barbaric, Mosaic Laws on our Republic's Constitutional Democracy, maybe the better solution is actually for them all to succeed and start their own little, perfect, Eden?

They won't have to ruin/scrap our well thought out Constitution and Bill of Rights or cram their faith down our throats. Then everybody can be happy, nobody has to be tortured and persecuted, and Christo-Fascism doesn't have to spill thousands of barrels of blood everywhere, just to prove a point!

America can say, “Okay, you are righteous and good and God loves you and we are not, but enjoy your new country and all that, sorry we are evil!”

We will have to do our part to rescue the Democrats, Liberals, Atheists, Gays, etc. in South Carolina when that happens though. They will want lots of slaves right off the bat..

Oh, and see JUST how wacky they can get if you don't put a muzzle on it? They have just won a whole lot, are spewing Radical Right-wing Republican Religious demands and proposing new legislature like a bowel on Olestra, and they STILL are not happy or even aware of it? Sorry, but they really should call their new country: Dumbfuckistan. Well, we will ... behind thier backs.

So, how can we help them succeed and should we take up a fund to help all the good Dominionists get to their destination? I am ready to do my part.

And it won't be long until they declare war on us because that's their nature. We should enjoy the brief break from their rants and endless permutations on their beliefs.

Let's get started and do our parts. I am so glad we have this solved now. We can get back to being America instead of facing a Fundamentalist Fascist fest of power mongering.

[beam me up scottie]

46. Hey, great idea.

Let's give them a state, build a wall around it, call it a country and not let anybody out without a passport. Anybody want to start a contest what to call it?

[OneBlueSky]

24. not to be confused with the University of Creation Spirituality . . .

http://www.creationspirituality.com/

Creation Spirituality honors all of creation as an original blessing. The Creation Spirituality movement seeks to integrate the wisdom of western spirituality and global indigenous cultures with the emerging scientific understanding of the universe and the passionate creativity of art. It is the earliest tradition of the Hebrew Bible and was celebrated by the mystics of medieval Europe. Creation Spirituality provides a solid foundation and holistic perspective from which to address the critical issues of our times, including the revitalization of religion and culture, the honoring of women's wisdom, the celebration of hope in today's youth, and the promotion of social and ecological justice.

Creation Spirituality, therefore, is not a new religion but is concerned with renewing theologies and practices within religion and culture that promote personal wholeness, planetary survival and universal interdependence.

[wtbymark]

29. easy definition

Creation scientist = sophist

[FM Arouet666]

31. True, god created the entire world

He created the world as it is today. What about the dinosaurs, he placed the bones of animals which never lived, so that we might discover them, as a test of faith. What about the obvious change in the fossil record which supports evolution, nonsense, again created these bones, to test our faith. Scientist say the earth is billions of years old, crazy, god can make it seem older than it really is. In fact, I think god created all or creation just a few minutes ago, complete with memories of a past which, until just now, did not exist. I only wish he had not created me with a sigmoid full of stool, got to go and pass the holy BM. Akin to the holy load of bull the christian nut bags are pushing on society.

[IHeart1993]

35. And we wonder why we're behind in science.

Is this the same country that made "Jurassic Park?"

[superconnected]

45. at least they got it right

pitting Christian against Christian.

Most of the Christians I know will fight it. I'd sue if I had a kid in that school system.

I don't think it's going to last. The fundamentalist never were a majority.