On Heaven and Hell

[rpannier]

Just a thought and I'm sure it's been brought up hundred's of times. But...let's pretend that Falwell and Robertson are correct. That people like scrub, oral (God, I love that name on a tv evangelist) roberts, insannity and the clowns (robertson and falwell) are going to heaven and that heaven is populated by people like them.
If those losers are "God's elect" Why would I want to go to heaven? Cuz it's gonna suck.
Just a thought.

[Bronco69]

1. Agree

We should all just pray that they have to spend eternity with people just like themselves.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. If things are as you postulate,

I have a feeling I'd be either in purgatory, limbo, or hell-trouble is, whenever I am with my spiritual brothers and sisters, no matter what the place, I feel like I'm in heaven!

[nostamj]

3. when I see a camel go thru the eye of a needle...

I'll worry about ANY of these 'christians' getting into heaven...

[NMDemDist2]

4. well there is that.....n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

7. when I see a camel go thru the eye of a needle...

Do you know what the real eye of the needle was?? Trivia question....

[amber dog democrat]

9. The needle

was a portal in a defensive wall that was large enought to accomodate a person, but a camel would have to be unloaded - even then with the packs removed it would still have difficulty going through due to its height.

[Nadienne]

12. Maybe...

"It is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."

Think about it: "Needle" in a more traditional sense (a needle that you sew with) would make it seem that it is impossible for a rich man to enter Heaven.

But "Needle" in the sense you mention makes it far more likely for a rich man to enter Heaven. As in, you are not morally corrupt if you're rich.

It wouldn't surprise me if some people redefined "Needle" so that poor people don't think they are morally superior to rich people...

[Calvinist Basset]

13. Exactly.

And the imagery would have been clear to Jesus' hearers about entering the kingdom "unencumbered." Thus, it is not that rich people are naturally morally corrupt, but the love of wealth or the habit of clutching things that inhibit spiritual growth keep them from entering a new and better spiritual reality.

[Nadienne]

20. What you say makes sense,

and though I tend to think that rich people (generally speaking) are morally corrupt, I suppose there may be a few who aren't...

I also tend to think that having wealth shows that you are encumbered, that you want wealth, that you value money above all other things. So, then, throwing off that which encumbers you (ie, your wealth; giving it all away) is the only way for a rich man to enter Heaven...???

[Calvinist Basset]

25. As Jesus would say, you are not far from the Kingdom of God.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

18. The reference to the gate at the entrance to the city... very good. n/t

[indigobusiness]

10. Some claim this a reference to a geological feature,

which ignores the metaphorical import of the admonition.

It is about humility, not eyes or needles or camels. Or geological features...whatever.

[Malva Zebrina]

5. hell

I agree--think of all the neat, creative and intelligent people that will be down there .

[rpannier]

6. You gave me an added thought...

If those clowns are in Heaven then Jesus Christ must be in Hell too.

[Malva Zebrina]

14. I am looking forward to meeting Emma Goldman

Carl Sagan, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Darwin, maybe even Einstein--wow

[amber dog democrat]

15. Mark Twain, Bertrand Russel, Geroge Bernard Shaw

Oscar Wiled ( I'll wager ), and many many more -
but it may all end up like Kurt Vonnegut's Happy Birthday Wanda June - where it won't matter who you are or what you did. You will all go to the same place.

[indigobusiness]

8. You illustrate why it is such an absurd concept, in their terms.

Like Groucho said: "I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."

Something like that.

[TO Kid]

11. Most people have no clue what heaven and hell are

We all create God in our own image, and those who believe in an afterlife base it on their own values. The Bible says very little about heaven and hell (and nothing about purgatory or limbo)- heaven means being with God and hell is separation from God. Forget the fire & brimstone stuff- hell's what you make for yourself. Dante's hell is a fetid pit and Muhammed's hell is a torture chamber. The Catholic church, being a vast bureaucracy, created a very bureaucratic afterlife with rules and regulations overseen by a God that they viewed as some kind of celestial deputy minister. Anyone claiming to be Christian is either deluded or lying if he thinks heaven and hell are a reward/punishment scenario, because Christian beliefs are very clear that they are self-made.

[Calvinist Basset]

16. I witnessed something interesting last summer.

I was working with a Vacation Bible School at my church. One of the activities for the children involved making mud bricks like the Israelites would have done. They were to smush mud between their toes in a wading pool, and then press the mud into little square shapes.

Half the kids loved the opportunity to get messy; the other half hated getting dirty.

Here, we had the same experience for everyone, but some thought it was heaven and some thought it was hell. So, it occurs to me that heaven and hell may very well be the same "place" or "state." Whether it's one or the other may depend fully on what we--individually speaking--discover the experience of being in God's presence to be.

I suspect Robertson and his like will be very, very surprised by the afterlife.

[TO Kid]

24. Taking that notion one step further...

Consider also the fact that what people regard as God, heaven and hell is a reflection of their own values. Under that premise, hell would be the place for people who don't believe the by their own standards they are good. Ergo, people who hate themselves go to hell.

[Calvinist Basset]

26. Interesting concept.

One might also say that a person who is self-hating is also likely to act without love toward others.

In regard to conceiving God, I like C.S. Lewis' comments in "Mere Christianity." Basically, he says that God is utterly incomprehensible--and what we understand about God is only the sliver of a shadow of God's impression upon creation.

[amber dog democrat]

17. Have to agree with you there.

Hell may well be suscribing to that belief system - and honestly I see it as something set up to control people. Never did buy the Angel Food Cake myth anyway.
It sounds like a boreing deminsion.

[heidler1]

23. Heaven & Hell from the Jewish view?

I have known quite a feq Jews and they seem to believe more that living right leads to a better life, with Gods blessings, here on earth. Christian beliefs dwell on the Heaven and Hell thing. The big difference is with Abraham who was God's favorite more or less used his beautiful wife to extract riches from the Egyption royal family by letting them believe she was his sister. Abraham did this without having a falling out with God. Yes, it was OK to be rich. Then Christianity swung it all the other way and put the poor and sick as the good guys. Being wealthy was now a sure way to Hell, of course if you don't believe in Hell it's a big so what?

What the Religious Right is doing that seems strange is they profess to believe in Jesus, which is a whole new deal, but use the old Testiment to prove that they are Christians. Even the Ten Commandments are pre-Christian.

[jandrok]

19. Thought this was a more existential thread.....

And you guys have probably seen this before, but I'll post it here anyway....

More to topic, if Heaven is full of THOSE guys, then there's no way I'm goin'. I'd rather spend eternity eating broken glass and pizza with the Debbil.....

Anyway, enjoy....

A thermodynamics professor wrote a take home exam for his graduate students. It had one question: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with a proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however wrote the following:

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First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass.
So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since, there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change in volume of hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant.

So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.

Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.

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It was not revealed what grade the student got.

[TO Kid]

21. I'd give him an A+

If I ever need help winning an argument, he's the man.

[agincourt]

22. I always envisioned those kind,

getting recycled as a trilobite on the bottom of a Paleozoic sea.
Can't cut it as thinking bipedal mammals, let's see if they can cut it as an arthropod.